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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: White Smoke! Discuss the new pope...
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
Congrats Caffolicks!
A pope that can throw in a joke in the first few minutes of a speech has my approval. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
The first-pope-of-his-name prior to Lando was Pope Romanus, who lasted three or four months in 897 and may have been deposed. It's distinctly possible that this whole "pick a new name and you'll have a short papacy" pattern might have been why popes started recycling regnal names so ardently. John-Paul I seems like a reinforcing example.
So I guess it's "wait and see" with Francis.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
quote:
Well, this is Church Latin, after all -- the same dialect that allows "Et iterum venturus est cum gloria judicare vivos et mortuos." Caesar and Cicero must turn over in their graves each time they hear that.
My remnants of high school Latin are good enough to match this up with the Nicene creed and come up with "and he will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead" but I don't know enough (and maybe never did) to spot the grammatical problem.
On a completely different note (except that it's also a foreign language phrase, for which I will also provide the translation, think of that), I'm on an Argentine tango email list where someone posted "Tenemos tango papa. Francesco I desde Buenos Aires!" ("We have a tango pope. Francis I from Buenos Aires!")
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Lothiriel
Shipmate
# 15561
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Well, I couldn't really figure out what was correct. So I looked for the last known example of a "first", and ended up with John Paul I, of whom I could find a "habemus papam" video on YouTube. And he was indeed John Paul I, i.e., he called himself that (with the "first"). So I thought that that must be the standard then. Now it looks more like JPI was the odd one out.
And then there are those who thought he should have gone with George Ringo.
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If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea. St-Exupery
my blog
Posts: 538 | From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Mar 2010
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Edgeman
Shipmate
# 12867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
TradWorld is in fits. We're all doomed. I think they're right to be worried even if it is a bit ironic seeing as they're committed papalists.
Now please do not take this as an attack, it is not. But the thought that went through my head was "worried that he might drag the RCC kicking and screaming into the 15th century?"
As has been said, it is unlikely the Dead horse issues will change. What are the traditionalists worried about? Genuine curiosity from someone who sees most of the official church positions as very traditional.
In Benedict they had a pope who understood the traditionalists or at least sympathised with them. He was patristic, a mystic, deeply liturgical etc. In the new pope they have a man who cares little for the reform of the reform which Benedict initiated or for the old Roman liturgy, an ecumenicalist etc.
This, pretty much. It was nice to know that in Benedict, we had someone who had our back. I neither want or desire a pope that would take the church back to the 60's, but it's nice to have someone who sympathises with you, understands your views, and is willing to grant you pastoral cares to that effect. Unfortunate, Pope Francis was not a friend to the older Roman mass as a bishop, some of us are a little afraid he'll rescind Benny's little motu proprio, leaving us with nothing and no one on our side.
There are still some clergy who are not interested in or refuse to implement Summorum Pontificum, and if the pope and the curia don't want to do it either, we've got nobody to help us. That Francis' ideas for liturgy are for simpler, more stripped down worship is ok with me, but many of us fear that those personal views will become the views that will effect all of us in ways we may not want them to.
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http://sacristyxrat.tumblr.com/
Posts: 1420 | From: Philadelphia Penns. | Registered: Jul 2007
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
quote:
Yes, indeed. Let us all pray for the new Patriarch of the West.
Sorry, the Pope gave up that title some time ago.
I'd love to still think of him as patriarch of the West. But if he says he ain't, then he ain't.
Thank you, I had missed that. We shall respect and honour him though as if he had retained the title, just as we do the other holders of the ancient titles. It's strange that it was drop as a hindrance to ecumenism - I would have thought the opposite, as the title is a substantial step away from the concept of magisterium now well and truly built into the title "Pope".
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Right, so I googled and read a bit. And the jist is, in part, that the Traditionalists* prefer a Mass which nobody understands and would like this to be the standard Mass. Pope Benny made it more OK to say a Latin Mass, but kept the default Mass in local vernacular. Is that part correct?
*As apposed to the, erm, "Ultra-Traditionalists" who think every pope from Paul VI on to be successive antichrists.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
I wonder if the Pope will soon celebrate Mass at the National Argentinian Church in Rome, Santa Maria Addolorata a piazza Buenos Aires
Link about them on wiki here.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
An interesting, transitional choice. Again. Don't feel excited or comforted by Francis. Yet. Time will tell.
Given his age, it is not surprising he has associations with the Dirty War. Let us hope these associations are minimal. He's Sovereign of the Vatican, now, and no longer belongs to his natal country.
I will pray for the Holy Father, as I always have.
The last pope that excited me was John Paul I (the Smiling Pope). And we know what happened there.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edgeman:
It was nice to know that in Benedict, we had someone who had our back. I neither want or desire a pope that would take the church back to the 60's, but it's nice to have someone who sympathises with you, understands your views, and is willing to grant you pastoral cares to that effect. Unfortunate, Pope Francis was not a friend to the older Roman mass as a bishop, some of us are a little afraid he'll rescind Benny's little motu proprio, leaving us with nothing and no one on our side.
OK, I do understand that people would wish to feel support. And, though my previous post might not seem so, I do not dismiss tradition off-hand. From my POV, it seems the RCC changes at a glacial pace, but this is subjective, yes. And, of course, not everyone feels change is necessary. So I apologise if my tone appears a bit sharp.
quote:
Originally posted by Edgeman:
There are still some clergy who are not interested in or refuse to implement Summorum Pontificum, and if the pope and the curia don't want to do it either, we've got nobody to help us. That Francis' ideas for liturgy are for simpler, more stripped down worship is ok with me, but many of us fear that those personal views will become the views that will effect all of us in ways we may not want them to.
From what I read, the Summorum Pontificum gives the choice to priests and laity may ask to join. If clergy have no interest, how would keeping the SP change anything?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I'm just so glad it is someone speaking a Romance language.
Why? God knows there have been more than enough that spoke Italian.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
What we really need is a Latin American pope who takes the name Haysoos.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Mary LA
Shipmate
# 17040
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Posted
A Pope from the Third World at last.
Just cherry-picking from the handful of facts available, but I'm pleased to see he is apparently a fan of Jorge Luis Borges. Some of the hasty biographies concocted so far read like magic realism.
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“I often wonder if we were all characters in one of God's dreams.”
― Muriel Spark
Posts: 499 | From: Africa | Registered: Apr 2012
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Maybe his first job is to close the gay sauna that the Vatican recently purchased [URL= http://www.heavy.com/news/2013/03/vatican-purchases-europes-largest-gay-sauna/]according to this.[/URL]
Oh. When I first heard this mentioned, I thought that it was a cynical reference to the Vatican itself.
Someone at the New York Times seems horrified that the new pope is a Catholic.
All I know I've heard within the past twelve hours, and I missed all the live coverage. As long as his distaste for the Tridentine mass doesn't impel him to retract Benedict's wise motu proprio allowing its wider use, I think that he is an inspired choice. Good for the cardinals! Advocacy for the poor in a worldwide atmosphere of economic polarization ought to be one of the church's most urgent issues, and missionary talking points. In that respect he has been on the side of the angels. Frankly, anything disparaging that he may say about gay people shouldn't even be on the radar by comparison.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
Time for 2 quick comments:
1. Yay! Habemus Papam (We have a Pope)!
2. I called it on Cardinal Bergoglio (see Papabile Betting Pool thread in The Circus).
*smug look*
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Is that really you, diakonos?
Yep. I've been scandalised - although not in the slightest surprised - by some of the comments in the Trad blogosphere about the Holy Father. I have long thought that their lack of docility was essentially a rather Protestant failure to develop a Catholic habit of mind of thinking with the Church. It is, I suspect, the natural concomitant of the experience of schism, de facto or de jure.
By a slightly odd series of coincidences, I have known the Holy Father for nearly twenty years - not well but well enough for him to recall my Christian name without being prompted when I last had supper with him in Rome last year - and am serenely happy. Whilst I suspect the liturgical tide might come in no further in this pontificate, his ability to hold in creative tension those things that the secular media always present as either/or dichotomies bodes very well. Incidentally, I lost a significant sum to Paddy Power on him in 2005.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
How do you think he will be on Curia governance, Trisagion? My non-Catholic gut tells me that his simplicity of manner and lifestyle (plus if I dare to say it his "Methodist" instincts on inequality) might produce some "creative tension" in his relationship within central governance.
I suspect he needs a strong administrative head, with both traditional doctrinal beliefs and some wider experience of governance and administration.
How do you fancy becoming a part of a special advisory team? ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
(spello edit)
[ 14. March 2013, 06:53: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Right, so I googled and read a bit. And the jist is, in part, that the Traditionalists* prefer a Mass which nobody understands and would like this to be the standard Mass. Pope Benny made it more OK to say a Latin Mass, but kept the default Mass in local vernacular. Is that part correct?
*As apposed to the, erm, "Ultra-Traditionalists" who think every pope from Paul VI on to be successive antichrists.
It has more to do with than just liturgy. Nevertheless, many people do understand the old rite. And many traditionalists are not against
vernacular per se but rather the new liturgy and its prayers. It's wrong to present it as an argument between Latin and vernacular, though of course it suits the supporters of the new liturgy to reduce to argument to that because by doing so on the surface, at least, it makes them sound more reasonable.
[ 14. March 2013, 07:36: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
Don't flatter your non-conformist soul that it is a specifically Methodist thing to be concerned about the poor: the clue is in the regnal name. His is very much the man of the Catholic "and". The current BBC line of "doctrinally conservative but concerned for social justice" reflects a very peculiar take. The classical Catholic position has always been "doctrinally conservative and concerned for social justice, as his immediate two predecessors body of teaching demonstrate only too well.
How will he deal with the Curia?
The first thing to observe is that there is clearly something amiss. The Roman Curia has always been sclerotic: frankly, the only sure way of getting something that you want is to go there and, without making una brutta figura, being a nuisance until you get what you want. Part of the sclerosis is the sheer lack of numbers and burden of work, part is a desire not to offend, part is due to archaic or extended decision making chains, part the system of patronage (raccommandazione), part sheer bloody inefficiency, part the natural ambition of the curial officials and part the very real ideological battles that go on - usually via some proxy, a person, a cause or an issue.
Secondly, it isn't the complete cluster-fuck that lazy journalists trying to reduce everything to easy sound-bite dichotomies in hooray/boo-hiss language have been filling the seemingly endless hours of coverage when absolutely nothing is happening would have you believe.
The Pope has been a member of three very important dicasteries over the last 12 years. He is not an insider but he knows well how the place works and, as a diocesan bishop for twenty years will have the "customers" perspective. He is also a very experienced and firm shepherd. I would spect him to inculcate a very firm sense in the Curia that they are an extension not of their own or their patrons agendas but of his ministry as the servant of the servants of God. I suspect he will also internationalise the Curia still further. More than this I wouldn't want to speculate, save to say that Curial reform was clearly in the air during the General Congregations before the conclave and so he might see that as a very important mandate. On the other hand, Curial reform is always on someone's agenda - usually that someone has been the recipient of a well-deserved bollocking for doing something daft, stupid or careless.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Does anyone know if St Malachy has left the building yet?
Or is there any indication from anywhere on how the Argentinian Francis I can possibly be described as Peter the Roman?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Sparrow
Shipmate
# 2458
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Posted
The BBC keeps telling us that he is the first non-European pope for "more than a millennium". So who was the last?
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For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life,nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Posts: 3149 | From: Bottom right hand corner of the UK | Registered: Mar 2002
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Does anyone know if St Malachy has left the building yet?
Or is there any indication from anywhere on how the Argentinian Francis I can possibly be described as Peter the Roman?
I couldn't find any either. Huge relief. The apocalypse is now averted. I have to say the lightning striking the Vatican, the rumbles of thunder during the election, then the appearance of that seagull on The Chimney were definitely pause for thought. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
And the jist is, in part, that the Traditionalists* prefer a Mass which nobody understands and would like this to be the standard Mass. Pope Benny made it more OK to say a Latin Mass, but kept the default Mass in local vernacular. Is that part correct?
*As apposed to the, erm, "Ultra-Traditionalists" who think every pope from Paul VI on to be successive antichrists.
Sort of. Except that the "Mass which nobody understands" was the mass of the Church for centuries and arguably is a grown product of cultural beauty. Whereas the "default mass in the local vernacular" is a recent innovation and a pastiche produced by liturgical committees. In trying to make Catholics switch from one to the other, the Church came down rather hard on people that liked the old style. And even when that attitude officially got relaxed, many local bishops did nothing for aficionados of the old style and arguably in some cases did their utmost to block any return to the old style anywhere in any manner under their reign. What BXVI did was to issue a document that officially at least made that impossible. In Pope Francis, traditionalists fear that one of these "blockers" has become pope.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sparrow:
The BBC keeps telling us that he is the first non-European pope for "more than a millennium". So who was the last?
Always ready to defer to people who know better, I will hazard a guess -- looking at the list of popes on the repository of all knowledge, the most recent one I could see with a known, non-European birthplace is Gregory III, reigned 731-741, born in Syria.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
quote:
Well, this is Church Latin, after all -- the same dialect that allows "Et iterum venturus est cum gloria judicare vivos et mortuos." Caesar and Cicero must turn over in their graves each time they hear that.
My remnants of high school Latin are good enough to match this up with the Nicene creed and come up with "and he will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead" but I don't know enough (and maybe never did) to spot the grammatical problem.
In Classical Latin you don't normally use the infinitive to show purpose ('come in order to judge'). You would have to say something like iterum venturus est cum gloria ut vivos et mortuos judicet.
[/geek]
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
For the latinists, an interesting aside as the name can be given in either the genitive or the accusative - Paul VI was announced in the accusative, Paulum sextum, as was Francis this evening - Franciscum. By contrast Benedict XVI was in the genitive - Benedicti Decimi sexti - as were the John Pauls.
Well, this is Church Latin, after all -- the same dialect that allows "Et iterum venturus est cum gloria judicare vivos et mortuos." Caesar and Cicero must turn over in their graves each time they hear that.
the Ship of Fools: Where Latin is a necessary second language.
I need lessons.
I've done the Classical World and now Religion in History as part of my OU degree - seriously considering a Latin extra mural course!
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
If he lives up to his name he will do well.
I hope he does both.
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Et iterum venturus est cum gloria judicare vivos et mortuos.
my stab: And going forward with glory judge the living and the dead?
"and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead"
I mean, the only difficult bit is 'iterum', iterate? But remember your Life of Brian 'Ite domum Romani'.
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
Has anyone any background on his pectoral cross?
I noticed it last night as pleasantly not heavy, not gold and not flashy.
It looked very modest, flat and dark . Today I magnified the bbc video images by 500% I saw it had a lovely descending dove at the top though I could not make out the figure of the crucified Christ on the rest - maybe some abstract art.
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
My two cents (we must have several dollars put together by now, right? what are we buying?):
I'm obviously personally disappointed about the reports of his views on homosexuality, but I can't say I would have expected any different from any other candidate. So moving past that...
I'm actually rather fascinated by the information about his plain and inexpensive living combined with his choice of name - which clearly is intended to convey the same qualities.
There's a lovely photo montage already doing the rounds of Facebook, showing the more triumphant raised-arms body language of the last 2 popes and comparing it with Pope Francis' far more informal wave. I think this man has the potential to be quite popular, simply because he won't automatically come across as living 'up in the clouds' away from ordinary people.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Never a "but" in my head, Trisagion. I know it's much more of an "and" within Catholicism than conservative Christianity (US evo style). "Methodism" was a sort of metaphor, really. Co-op movements, more "stripped down" approach to presentational style, more modest tat, less formality. That sort of thing ...
The insight re the Curia was helpful, ta. That he will have some sort of reform agenda seems very likely; I agree it's early days on what form it will take.
My "gut" picture from outside is that changing the Curia may require persistence against resistance.
[ 14. March 2013, 09:43: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
I woke up this morning and realised I am more excited by the new Pope than I am about the new ABoC. He seems to take seriously the needs of the poor and the powerless, which I find inspiring.
As for mass "in the language no one understands" the strongest argument I've heard for retaining Latin was that it was the language EVERYONE understands. As a member of a worldwide church an English Catholic could attend attend mass in Italy, Argentina or Japan and understand what was happening. With the venacular that is no longer the case.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
According to IngoB on the Papal Name Game thread in the Circus, you get the numeral, so it's Pope Francis I.
That doesn't seem right. If that's the case then why don't Popes like Hilarius or Valentine get a numeral? At least, I've never seen them given a numeral.
Well, I couldn't really figure out what was correct. So I looked for the last known example of a "first", and ended up with John Paul I, of whom I could find a "habemus papam" video on YouTube. And he was indeed John Paul I, i.e., he called himself that (with the "first"). So I thought that that must be the standard then. Now it looks more like JPI was the odd one out.
I read somewhere a couple of days ago, that yes, John Paul I specifically taking the I was an innovation.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Bob Two-Owls
Shipmate
# 9680
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Posted
It is quite spooky that when I heard about the white smoke I was sitting down to a nice after-work snack at Frankie and Benny's
Seriously though, he seems like a nice guy, anyone who takes the bus to work rather than getting chauffeured around like lord muck is definitely on my OK list.
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
What nobody seems to realize - including the rad-trads, remarkably - is the importance of the Bishop of Rome Emeritus BXVI concerning this papacy. But Pope Francis asked the crowd to pray for BXVI from the balcony as the very first thing he did as pope (!), and one of his first stops today will be to BXVI.
Now, popes are usually reluctant to counter-act previous acts of other popes. They are doubly so when it comes to counter-acting their predecessor. But now that predecessor is alive! It would take enormous chutzpah to counter-act BXVI to his face. Thus, while there can be no doubt that Pope Francis is a liturgical disaster, as is de rigeur for Jesuits, and while it appears that he on occasion overdoes the humility to the point of damaging the dignity of his office, I see no imminent threat for the "reform of the reform" of the liturgy.
While BXVI is still alive, I think any attempt to roll back the "reform of the reform" will be effectively blocked. What we may see instead is a further widening of the liturgical scope. This pope has for example charismatic leanings, so I can imagine that we will see allowances made for that. I've predicted elsewhere that I see the liturgy returning to pre-Trent variety (rather than fusing to a new Tridentine mass). This process may now accelerate significantly with this pope.
If this pope is really cunning, then he would draft BXVI as "special envoy" for dealing with matters of the traditional liturgy and/or the SSPX. That would give him plausible deniability for failures in that field, while freeing himself for work he clearly cares a lot more about. Nobody really knows what to do with an ex-pope, so maybe we will see something equivalent to the "elder statesman" activity in politics now. This depends on the state of BXVI though, which may not be good enough.
As for other agendas, I think the honeymoon period of the liberals with this pope will end rather soon. As their main concern - sex - reasserts itself, the bitterness will accumulate again, no matter how humble or socially progressive he may prove to be. In this regrad, the new pope will be rather revealing about the liberal side. Just as he has already been revealing about the rad-trad side and their "Liturgie über alles" (German: "liturgy above everything", with intended Nazi vibes)...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
If this pope is really cunning, then he would draft BXVI as "special envoy" for dealing with matters of the traditional liturgy and/or the SSPX.
Assuming Benedict (if that's still his name) wants to be involved. I thought he was opting for seclusion and a life of prayer and getting away from it all.
(OK, that's what he said, people can and do change their minds, but still.)
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
No leader lives up to expectations and, when they fall short, bitterness sets in. In the UK we saw that with Blair, in the USA we've seen it with Obama. So, will the new Pope turn the RCC into an organisation I would want to belong to? Of course not! But what I already know of him has challenged me; it is much easier to talk about caring for the poor than actually living it out. My prayer is that God will bless Francis, and use him to bless the entire Church, Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) (hope I haven't missed anyone out!).
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
while it appears that he on occasion overdoes the humility to the point of damaging the dignity of his office
Seriously? Humility is hardly the opposite of dignity.
I've worked with/for some reasonably high-powered people in the past, and if you ask me the ones who came out looking more dignified were the ones who treated me like a proper human being rather than relegating me to an afterthought just because I didn't have an impressive position like they did.
[ 14. March 2013, 10:36: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Seriously? Humility is hardly the opposite of dignity.
There was a Michal in the OT who certainly thought it was.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Humility is dignity.
And is anyone - even the most liberal of liberals - really expecting that the Pope will do anything new regarding the acceptance of homosexual activity, or the ordination of women? His track record in Buenos Aires would hardly suggest so. But he has said that gay people should be accepted and respected, and that it's hypocritical to refuse to baptise the children of unmarried women. If BXVI ever said anything like that, and as clearly as that, I'm afraid it went unreported by the secular media.
I think he's the right man for right now: among all the items on the liberal agenda, the poor are often those least shouted about, and it sounds like Francis is on the side of the poor.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I read somewhere a couple of days ago, that yes, John Paul I specifically taking the I was an innovation.
Maybe it's one of those lovely little details where it's a case of "I'm Pope and I can do what I like."
[ 14. March 2013, 10:53: Message edited by: Adeodatus ]
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Thank you, Ad Orientem and IngoB. I will have to read more. My understanding of Vatican II was that it intended to make liturgy more accessible to all Catholics.
To that, Robert Armin, how much of the church body actually do understand Latin? Especially at a level of serious comprehension. And given the rate of travel amongst the general population of Catholics* in the world, how important is that?
*Assuming that to be consistent with the general world population.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Seriously? Humility is hardly the opposite of dignity.
There was a Michal in the OT who certainly thought it was.
And a Peter in the New Testament who got seriously offended at the undignified sight of his Master washing his disciples' feet !
Can a Pope who had two Italian parents really be considered non-European? Not sure it matters that much anyway. Before the announcement, radio commentators were saying that they reckoned the Cardinals would be most influenced by the gifts and character of the man to be elected, rather than by political or geographical inferences with regard to his location. A comment I thought very encouraging, if true.
I like the way he invited the prayer of the crowd before he prayed for them. And - if the translators were correct - he offered his blessing to 'all people of goodwill' - a truly (c)Catholic phrase by anyone's standards. May God truly bless him and his ministry.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
What nobody seems to realize - including the rad-trads, remarkably - is the importance of the Bishop of Rome Emeritus BXVI concerning this papacy. But Pope Francis asked the crowd to pray for BXVI from the balcony as the very first thing he did as pope (!), and one of his first stops today will be to BXVI.
Now, popes are usually reluctant to counter-act previous acts of other popes. They are doubly so when it comes to counter-acting their predecessor. But now that predecessor is alive! It would take enormous chutzpah to counter-act BXVI to his face. Thus, while there can be no doubt that Pope Francis is a liturgical disaster, as is de rigeur for Jesuits, and while it appears that he on occasion overdoes the humility to the point of damaging the dignity of his office, I see no imminent threat for the "reform of the reform" of the liturgy.
While BXVI is still alive, I think any attempt to roll back the "reform of the reform" will be effectively blocked. What we may see instead is a further widening of the liturgical scope. This pope has for example charismatic leanings, so I can imagine that we will see allowances made for that. I've predicted elsewhere that I see the liturgy returning to pre-Trent variety (rather than fusing to a new Tridentine mass). This process may now accelerate significantly with this pope.
If this pope is really cunning, then he would draft BXVI as "special envoy" for dealing with matters of the traditional liturgy and/or the SSPX. That would give him plausible deniability for failures in that field, while freeing himself for work he clearly cares a lot more about. Nobody really knows what to do with an ex-pope, so maybe we will see something equivalent to the "elder statesman" activity in politics now. This depends on the state of BXVI though, which may not be good enough.
As for other agendas, I think the honeymoon period of the liberals with this pope will end rather soon. As their main concern - sex - reasserts itself, the bitterness will accumulate again, no matter how humble or socially progressive he may prove to be. In this regrad, the new pope will be rather revealing about the liberal side. Just as he has already been revealing about the rad-trad side and their "Liturgie über alles" (German: "liturgy above everything", with intended Nazi vibes)...
I think most liberal Catholics, me included, will be happy with a greater emphasis over the next few years on orthopraxis. Perhaps softening the harsh bark of the "New Liturgical Movement" may be part of a price worth paying for a more humble and eirenic Catholic Church.
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I read somewhere a couple of days ago, that yes, John Paul I specifically taking the I was an innovation.
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Maybe it's one of those lovely little details where it's a case of "I'm Pope and I can do what I like."
It seems a relatively slight liberty to have taken compared with the excesses of the afore-mentioned Borgia.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
This is not about liturgy. It is not about homosexuals, either. Nor is it about priests' gender or marital status. All that is certainly more or less urgent to more or less large groups of stakeholders (plus of course the non-stakeholding chattering classes).
Francis being pope is primarily about two things, one imposed on him from the outside, the other from deeply within the man himself.
the external need: clean up the curia. The cardinals must have voted for someone they thought (or the Holy Spirit told them he was) able to do that.
Much more interesting (and perennial) is what Jorge Bergoglio stands for: A lived theology of the option for the poor, and ecological consciousness -care for creation. It is this which is much more important than administrative squabbles, liturgical questions or Zeitgeist issues.
I think (I hope and pray) that beyond doing a needed job in the curial Augias stable, Fancis will lead us back to what is really important about Catholicism.
His first minutes on that balcony left me deeply impressed.
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Slightly more balanced source.
(Crosspost snap)
So .. he looked after his own, while the country went to hell in a handbasket. That seems to be more the actions of a politician than that of a moral exemplar.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
It seems a relatively slight liberty to have taken compared with the excesses of the afore-mentioned Borgia.
That's probably true. But the Borgia Pope - in his own context - was not, in some respects, a bad Papal ruler compared to some of his predecessors. Still not a name to be proud of, but there were much worse examples of personal and papal excess than Borgia. The post-rennaissance bunch has largely been a shining light of propriety, in comparison! But all this is relative. It's unlikely Pope Alexander (VI) was seen as being particularly unusual in his pontificate, or his personal life, at the time.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion
The Pope has been a member of three very important dicasteries over the last 12 years. He is not an insider but he knows well how the place works...
I think you're saying something important, and I don't understand it at all.
Please explain.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
What nobody seems to realize - including the rad-trads, remarkably - is the importance of the Bishop of Rome Emeritus BXVI concerning this papacy. But Pope Francis asked the crowd to pray for BXVI from the balcony as the very first thing he did as pope (!), and one of his first stops today will be to BXVI.
Now, popes are usually reluctant to counter-act previous acts of other popes. They are doubly so when it comes to counter-acting their predecessor. But now that predecessor is alive! It would take enormous chutzpah to counter-act BXVI to his face. Thus, while there can be no doubt that Pope Francis is a liturgical disaster, as is de rigeur for Jesuits, and while it appears that he on occasion overdoes the humility to the point of damaging the dignity of his office, I see no imminent threat for the "reform of the reform" of the liturgy.
While BXVI is still alive, I think any attempt to roll back the "reform of the reform" will be effectively blocked. What we may see instead is a further widening of the liturgical scope. This pope has for example charismatic leanings, so I can imagine that we will see allowances made for that. I've predicted elsewhere that I see the liturgy returning to pre-Trent variety (rather than fusing to a new Tridentine mass). This process may now accelerate significantly with this pope.
If this pope is really cunning, then he would draft BXVI as "special envoy" for dealing with matters of the traditional liturgy and/or the SSPX. That would give him plausible deniability for failures in that field, while freeing himself for work he clearly cares a lot more about. Nobody really knows what to do with an ex-pope, so maybe we will see something equivalent to the "elder statesman" activity in politics now. This depends on the state of BXVI though, which may not be good enough.
As for other agendas, I think the honeymoon period of the liberals with this pope will end rather soon. As their main concern - sex - reasserts itself, the bitterness will accumulate again, no matter how humble or socially progressive he may prove to be. In this regrad, the new pope will be rather revealing about the liberal side. Just as he has already been revealing about the rad-trad side and their "Liturgie über alles" (German: "liturgy above everything", with intended Nazi vibes)...
I think most liberal Catholics, me included, will be happy with a greater emphasis over the next few years on orthopraxis. Perhaps softening the harsh bark of the "New Liturgical Movement" may be part of a price worth paying for a more humble and eirenic Catholic Church.
Eh? Liturgy belongs to orthopraxis. Thr prayer of the Church is the faith of the Church, which is why it's so important to get it right.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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