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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: White Smoke! Discuss the new pope...
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Edgeman
Shipmate
# 12867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
From what I read, the Summorum Pontificum gives the choice to priests and laity may ask to join. If clergy have no interest, how would keeping the SP change anything?
Because, Summorum Pontificum says that if a group of the laity ask for a tridentine mass to be said somewhere, the diocesan bishop, the pastor of the parish, rector of the chapel, shrine, whatever, should provide one. If they all dislike the tridentine mass, they'll refuse to provide one. Bishops are also expected to teach the tridentine mass in the seminaries, as well as other training for them.
Again, if the bishop opposes tridentine masses, he'll refuse to do this. And ther ehave been cases where bishops have neglected to provide any sort of training for priests to learn that form of the mass, and when groups of the lay faithful ask for it, they respons by saying "Sorry, there's no priests here who know how to say it", knowing that it's their responsibility to provide that.
The document is less about priests and more about laity. It makes it that the laity may ask for the celebrations using the tridentine mass, and it's expected that they should be accommodated. If clergy are letting their personal distastes or vendettas against the tridentine mass get so much in the way, to the point of refusing totally to implement these (There are many bishops like that of Great Falls-Billings who have flatly refused to provide any tridentine masses to any groups who may ask, whatsoever) or only providing one such mass within the whole diocese, often not in a place easily accessible or at inconvenient or irregular times, obviously, some sort of change needs to be made.
Right now, in these difficult cases when the diocesan bishop or other clergy are putting roadblocks to laypeople who ask for the tridentine mass, we can appeal to Rome and they will help. If Rome doesn't care either, we've got nobody.
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http://sacristyxrat.tumblr.com/
Posts: 1420 | From: Philadelphia Penns. | Registered: Jul 2007
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
Well, I do like the first homily of Pope Francis!
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Well, I do like the first homily of Pope Francis!
Yes, I quite like it too.
quote:
When we walk without the Cross, when we build without the Cross, and when we profess Christ without the Cross, we are not disciples of the Lord. We are worldly, we are bishops, priests, cardinals, Popes, but not disciples of the Lord.
Researching the Jesuits, I just noticed a little interesting historical quirk: AIUI, in 1773 Pope Clement XIV signed a decree to suppress the Jesuit Order, which would have wiped out the Order except that, in Russia, Catherine the Great forbade the papal decree to be put into effect. (Say what you will about Cathy, but she was Great.) It was not until 1814 that the Jesuits were fully restored and the suppression decree reversed (by Pope Pius VII). But the interesting quirk is: Clement XIV was…a Franciscan. And now the first Jesuit to become Pope then takes the name "Francis."
I can't decide if it is coincidence or the sort of humorous irony I have come to expect from the Jesuits of my acquaintance…
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Isn't it that the signal with a old guy pope voted in by a group of old guy cardinals is that they distinctly do not want change. Transitional really means 'no change wanted' methinks.
That could well have been the verdict on the election of John XXIII.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Prioritizing one's personal preferences may be a common vice for Protestants, but none of the Reformers framed the Reformation or their theologies in such a manner, and indubitably would have been disgusted by such an attitude.
All the more suspicious it should be, then, that we don't have just one Lutheran and one Calvinist community today, but hundreds and hundreds. Naturally, a schismatic ringleader will be "disgusted" if some of those who followed him in schism no. 1 decide to desert him with schism no. 2. There may have been excellent reasons for schism no. 1 (if I lived in 1517, given my distaste for overweening, coercive institutional power, I would probably have cheered Luther on) but we can't deny that a dangerous precedent has been set. Under most circumstances, I'll want to throw my lot in with people more eager to co-operate than to pick fights.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Well I don't.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
A few more quick thoughts:
1. The new Pope is a man of personal holiness. A number of observers, before and during the conclave, said that this was a quality that the cardinals greatly desired in a future Pope.
2. He doesn't mince words. The speeches I've heard and read so far have been very direct.
3. People need to let go of this idea of him being a "transitional" Pope because...
a. it leads to some wishful thinking and,
b. they'll be taken by surprise if and when he does something that's been a long time in coming.
4. His hands are going to be occupied with all the pressing issues of the Church and I think he's going to continue some of the paths the previous Pope was following.
However, as I wrote elsewhere on the boards, the Vatican's eyes have been turning to Latin America for a while now and it looks like with Pope Francis' election I'm being proven right. I think he's going to see Latin America as the special concern of his pontificate, sort of the way Pope Emeritus Benedict saw the liturgy as his special concern.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
b. they'll be taken by surprise if and when he does something that's been a long time in coming.
Like?
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
All the more suspicious it should be, then, that we don't have just one Lutheran and one Calvinist community today, but hundreds and hundreds. Naturally, a schismatic ringleader will be "disgusted" if some of those who followed him in schism no. 1 decide to desert him with schism no. 2. There may have been excellent reasons for schism no. 1 (if I lived in 1517, given my distaste for overweening, coercive institutional power, I would probably have cheered Luther on) but we can't deny that a dangerous precedent has been set. Under most circumstances, I'll want to throw my lot in with people more eager to co-operate than to pick fights.
I don't know why that is more suspicious. I am not saying the Protestants are better than Catholics in maintaining unity. No doubt we are worse at it, but that still doesn't mean schismatic self-righteousness is uniquely Protestant, or that it is a defining feature of Protestantism.
Even before the Reformation schism abounded. The winning side just had enough power to chuck the losers on the stake. Heck, if we don't presuppose Rome's status as the One True Church the original schisms of Anglicanism, Lutheranism and Calvinism were all schisms between Roman Catholics.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
Thus it is interesting that Francis, in referring to Benedict, used the term "Bishop emeritus" rather than "Pope emeritus" (the term supposedly preferred by Benedict)
Didn't Francis refer to himself as the new Bishop of Rome? If he did, then it would be consistent to refer to Benedict as Bishop emeritus.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
Yes, Moo. You got it spot on.
He was speaking to the Romans, remember. It was very much "I have become your bishop. Here we are, bishop and people together. Let us pray for our Emeritus Bishop, Benedict". That wasn't an anti-papal statement, because he immediately went on to offer the traditional prayer of Catholics for the Pope: one Our Father, one Hail Mary and a Glory be.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
b. they'll be taken by surprise if and when he does something that's been a long time in coming.
Like?
Like in dealing with the issue of communion and pro-abortion politicians.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
For the latinists, an interesting aside as the name can be given in either the genitive or the accusative - Paul VI was announced in the accusative, Paulum sextum, as was Francis this evening - Franciscum. By contrast Benedict XVI was in the genitive - Benedicti Decimi sexti - as were the John Pauls.
Well, this is Church Latin, after all -- the same dialect that allows "Et iterum venturus est cum gloria judicare vivos et mortuos." Caesar and Cicero must turn over in their graves each time they hear that.
Haha yes. I can't remember the name of the Cardinal (very long dead), who no longer recited the breviary as it upset his Latin.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Pancho, what do you think he will do? Admonish them? Bar them from communion?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
b. they'll be taken by surprise if and when he does something that's been a long time in coming.
Like?
Like in dealing with the issue of communion and pro-abortion politicians.
Who is pro-abortion? I know anyone who is pro-abortion.
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Ego is not your amigo.
Posts: 1283 | From: in the studio | Registered: Apr 2005
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Pancho, what do you think he will do? Admonish them? Bar them from communion?
Well, he has said something about it before - when presenting the "Aparecida Document" in 2007 he said: quote:
“we should commit ourselves to ‘eucharistic coherence’, that is, we should be conscious that people cannot receive holy communion and at the same time act or speak against the commandments, in particular when abortion, euthanasia, and other serious crimes against life and family are facilitated. This responsibility applies particularly to legislators, governors, and health professionals.”
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258
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Posted
“My religion defines who I am,” Biden said. “Life begins at conception. That’s the church’s position. I accept it in my personal life. But I refuse to impose it on equally devout Christians, and Muslims, and Jews.”
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Ego is not your amigo.
Posts: 1283 | From: in the studio | Registered: Apr 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
But I like his poverty and simplicity and honesty and love of the poor. He'd make a great Evangelical if only he were more middle class ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
As long as his homily is only targetted at Christians, which it will be, OK. But it won't come across like that. And even then ...
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
I've been scandalised - although not in the slightest surprised - by some of the comments in the Trad blogosphere about the Holy Father. I have long thought that their lack of docility was essentially a rather Protestant failure to develop a Catholic habit of mind of thinking with the Church. It is, I suspect, the natural concomitant of the experience of schism, de facto or de jure.
Golly! I see what you mean, having just glanced at some. Not nice, to say the least.
I wonder what the future new bishops of England and Wales will look like now!
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
I've been scandalised - although not in the slightest surprised - by some of the comments in the Trad blogosphere about the Holy Father. I have long thought that their lack of docility was essentially a rather Protestant failure to develop a Catholic habit of mind of thinking with the Church. It is, I suspect, the natural concomitant of the experience of schism, de facto or de jure.
Golly! I see what you mean, having just glanced at some. Not nice, to say the least.
I wonder what the future new bishops of England and Wales will look like now!
Perhaps those who take the tube will reap preferment!
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
I'm wondering if he'll wear the red shoes.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
Apparently not, RuthW. He certainly wore black shoes today. But these things have a way of developing.
Haha Augustine the Aleut ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) . And actually, Archbishop Vincent Nichols did catch the bus when he came to visit us a few years ago. I was rather taken aback. Don't know if he still does that. Archbishop George Stack of Cardiff is an avid rider of the omnibus as well.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I'm wondering if he'll wear the red shoes.
As Garrison Keillor does! They should get together for lunch. Keillor can teach him how to run a big show. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
[ 15. March 2013, 00:33: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
It appears Pope Francis has revived one tradition which had fallen into disuse. If you look carefully at footage of his balcony appearance, in the background there is a bishop in his purple outfit. However, his zucchetto (skull-cap) is red. That's Archbishop Lorenzo Baldisseri, Secretary of the Congregation for Bishops, Secretary of the College of Cardinals and Secretary of the Conclave. He used to be Nuncio in Brazil until his appointment to his curial job in 2012. Traditionally a new pope would place his now obsolete red zucchetto on the head of the secretary of the conclave, indicating he would be making him a Cardinal. This has not happened of late - the last to do it was John XXIII in 1958 I think. Well, Pope Francis seems to have done it this time.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
TT and GoldenKey: If he wears these I'll be impressed! (He can always use inserts for arch support.)
ETA: Thanks for the info, TT -- it's items like that that keep me coming back to SoF. No one else is going to provide info like that to me, and I wouldn't even know to look for a detail like that.
[ 15. March 2013, 00:45: Message edited by: RuthW ]
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
I'm beginning to like him. He seems to be walking the walk - so far - as well as talking the talk.
We'll see what happens when the Curia gets its claws in - like they did and sharpish too with John Paul I.
Still feel a little queasy about his supposed involvement with the Dirty War. Maybe he will address that shortly.
But so far so good.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
So far, I'm encouraged.
The mess during the Argentine war, if true, could be very bad. I think I'd want to know his motives and what he *thought* he was doing. E.g., was he afraid he'd put more people in danger by speaking up than by silence??
My main concern is what he does about the abuse mess and the cover-up. Will he defend children as fiercely as he did the poor?
I'm glad he chose Francis, especially since it seems to be the one from Assisi. I'd been thinking that would be a good name, and a good signal of good change.
He reminds me a bit of JP1, who I liked very much. My sense at the time was that he was going to kick butt in the Curia...and he didn't get the chance... ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif) Fr Malachi Martin, who looked into the possibility that he was murdered, concluded that it was a matter of neglect rather than direct action. I hope Francesco has good people to watch his health...and his back.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Pancho, what do you think he will do? Admonish them? Bar them from communion?
Ruth,
I was thinking of the "Aparecida Document" that Triple Tiara quoted above. I think he will begin by making more plain and direct statements on the subject. If I was forced to guess at gunpoint, I would say we might then see a few test cases, not of politicians directly, but of Catholic institutions who for instance, might grant an honor on a Catholic figure who supports abortion rights or euthanasia. I think those institutions (like colleges and universities) might be the first to feel any repercussions. After that it's really hard to say but I think things in some way will eventually come to a head.
Besides that, I think he will be more explicit in expressing the Church's teaching on the poor and the immigrants (remember he is the son of an immigrant) and making for less wiggle room in following that teaching.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
He is the son of an immigrant. However, immigrants from Italy to Argentina, is this considered a difficult immigration?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Well, I do like the first homily of Pope Francis!
So did he say the Church was in danger of becoming a "pitiful NGO " or merely a "compassionate NGO" (BBC translation)?
There is much debate in interpreting circles! It reminds me of the headaches over Yasser Arafat's famous/notorious "caduc".
I suspect this new Pope of being a master of ambiguity - as hinted at by his name. Probably what you need for the top job.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I see the French has, literally, a "philanthropic NGO".
[ 15. March 2013, 07:02: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
He is the son of an immigrant. However, immigrants from Italy to Argentina, is this considered a difficult immigration?
I don't know if it's considered a difficult immigration. Argentina received a wave of Italian immigrants around the same time the U.S. did: from the late 19th century to the first half of the 20th. Most Argentines are of Italian or Spanish descent and about half have Italian ancestry (etathough I saw a statistic that even more have at least some Italian ancestry). The Northwest, however, shares a lot in common with Peru and Bolivia. Many people there have Indian ancestry and in some areas where Quechua (the Inca language) is still spoken.
Argentina has received immigrants from many other parts of the world. In recent decades there's been immigration from Peru, Bolivia, and Paraguay.
[ 15. March 2013, 07:10: Message edited by: Pancho ]
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Slightly more balanced source.
(Crosspost snap)
So .. he looked after his own, while the country went to hell in a handbasket. That seems to be more the actions of a politician than that of a moral exemplar.
Eh? Have you even read the link?
From the link:
quote:
Both men were freed after Bergoglio took extraordinary, behind-the-scenes action to save them, including persuading dictator Jorge Videla's family priest to call in sick so that Bergoglio could say Mass in the junta leader's home, where he privately appealed for mercy. His intervention likely saved their lives, but Bergoglio never shared the details until Rubin interviewed him for the 2010 biography.
Bergoglio told Rubin that he regularly hid people on church property during the dictatorship, and once gave his identity papers to a man with similar features, enabling him to escape across the border. But all this was done in secret, at a time when church leaders publicly endorsed the junta and called on Catholics to restore their "love for country" despite the terror in the streets.
Perhaps Francis could have done more publically, as well as his Schindler-esque activity in secret. But if he had done so would he have been disappeared too, and thus his good work behind the scenes would have stopped? It's impossible to say, from our great distance away.
And, I think, it is somewhat disappointing that although there was no evidence ever presented against him regarding his conduct in this period, the unfounded allegations are the main thing most commentators focus on. The media are wolves sniffing around for the scent of blood, desperate to find some fresh meat to replace the old sticking carcass of the abuse scandals. There is no sign of any blood yet, but that doesn't stop the wolves sniffing.
[ 15. March 2013, 10:24: Message edited by: Hawk ]
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
He reminds me a bit of JP1, who I liked very much. My sense at the time was that he was going to kick butt in the Curia...and he didn't get the chance... Fr Malachi Martin, who looked into the possibility that he was murdered, concluded that it was a matter of neglect rather than direct action.
Well, that's ... reassuring.
(I normally pay no attention to conspiracy theories of whatever stripe, but ... yeah.)
quote:
I hope Francesco has good people to watch his health...and his back.
So do I!
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I wonder what the future new bishops of England and Wales will look like now!
Perhaps those who take the tube will reap preferment! [/QB][/QUOTE]
Perhaps +Pete173 will join the Ordinariate.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Generally speaking, look out for the FSSP or the ICKSP, and you should find some well done liturgies.
Don't forget the Latin Mass Society which has been going since 1965, and organises many beautifully celebrated Masses in England. I think it's unlikeley that Pope Francis will make any attempt to rescind the provisions of Summorum Pontificum and Universae Ecclesiae. He may feel that his has bigger issues, such as world poverty and a necessary cleaning of house, but under the watchful, if silent gaze of his predecessor, he will leave in place the provisions already made.
His apparent indifference to the usus antiquior while in Beunos Aires was repeated throughout the world, by many bishops who saw it mainly as a means to take the wind out of the sails of the SSPX before beginning negotiations with them. Indiffernece, rather than hostility, and a willingness to give only the minimum in obedience to the former Pope's motu proprio happened world wide. Benedict XVI established that the Old Mass was never abrogated, and that it must be made available where there is a demand for it.
Unless the new Pope intends to abrogate it now, which seems extremely unlikely, those of us who belong to organisations such as the LMS will continue to worship in this way. Two more parishes within the Westminser Diocese are to start offering Mass in the Extraordinary Form. It will always be an interest of the minority, and all we require is the freedom to be geeks if we choose to be.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
Eh? Have you even read the link?
Yes, I did:
quote:
But rights attorney Bregman said Bergoglio's own statements proved church officials knew from early on that the junta was torturing and killing its citizens, and yet publicly endorsed the dictators.
"The dictatorship could not have operated this way without this key support," she said.
Bergoglio also was accused of turning his back on a family that lost five relatives to state terror, including a young woman who was five months' pregnant before she was kidnapped and killed in 1977. The De la Cuadra family appealed to the leader of the Jesuits in Rome, who urged Bergoglio to help them; Bergoglio then assigned a monsignor to the case. Months passed before the monsignor came back with a written note from a colonel: The woman had given birth in captivity to a girl who was given to a family "too important" for the adoption to be reversed.
Despite this written evidence in a case he was personally involved with, Bergoglio testified in 2010 that he didn't know about any stolen babies until well after the dictatorship was over.
"Bergoglio has a very cowardly attitude when it comes to something so terrible as the theft of babies. He says he didn't know anything about it until 1985," said the baby's aunt, Estela de la Cuadra, whose mother, Alicia, co-founded the Grandmothers of the Plaza de Mayo in 1977 in hopes of identifying these babies.
"He doesn't face this reality and it doesn't bother him," the aunt said. "The question is how to save his name, save himself. But he can't keep these allegations from reaching the public. The people know how he is."
Again .. it's the action of a politician to focus on what is 'reasonable'.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
1. The new Pope is a man of personal holiness. A number of observers, before and during the conclave, said that this was a quality that the cardinals greatly desired in a future Pope.
I would be interested to know how you define 'personal holiness'. I'm thinking on the lines of as opposed to personal kindness, goodness, thoughtfulness, etc, for which the word 'holiness' is unnecessary..
2.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I would be interested to know how you define 'personal holiness'. I'm thinking on the lines of as opposed to personal kindness, goodness, thoughtfulness, etc, for which the word 'holiness' is unnecessary.
Christians see holiness as the quality that makes a person pure before God. It also has the meaning of being 'set apart', consecrated to God and His purposes. Being a man (or woman) of prayer is very much part of that.
Being 'holy' doesn't mean one has to be a puritan about enjoying oneself.
And I would be very worried if any definition of holiness did NOT include kindness, thoughtfulness and all the rest. To be holy is to aim to be like Jesus. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) What was He like? Kind, good, thoughtful, compassionate, etc etc etc. And close to God. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Pancho, what do you think he will do? Admonish them? Bar them from communion?
Ruth,
I was thinking of the "Aparecida Document" that Triple Tiara quoted above. I think he will begin by making more plain and direct statements on the subject. If I was forced to guess at gunpoint, I would say we might then see a few test cases, not of politicians directly, but of Catholic institutions who for instance, might grant an honor on a Catholic figure who supports abortion rights or euthanasia. I think those institutions (like colleges and universities) might be the first to feel any repercussions. After that it's really hard to say but I think things in some way will eventually come to a head.
Wow. This could have profound consequences for Catholic politicians, if carried to individuals. They could become unelectable in many places, due to supporting laws and policies that go very much against what the people in their various jurisdictions want, and perhaps also because people will see them as representatives of the Church, not of the voters. I can't help but think of John F. Kennedy having to say he wouldn't be taking his orders from the pope were he to be elected president -- a smart politician going up against a Catholic opponent could easily find a way to leverage something like this, at least in places like where I live.
quote:
Besides that, I think he will be more explicit in expressing the Church's teaching on the poor and the immigrants (remember he is the son of an immigrant) and making for less wiggle room in following that teaching.
On this point, of course, I hope he is heard!
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
There are very sound canonical arguments for refusing communion to some (not all) pro-abortion politicians. I lack a firsthand knowledge of canon law and as such will not attempt to lay them out in their complexity here, but they can be found among other places on the blog of well-known canonist Ed Peters.
It does seem that Francis might be more immediately amenable to this course of action than either of his predecessors. I wonder, though, what the pope can order in this arena, as it seems that this is something that would be up to either the local bishop or the national conference to enforce.
[ 15. March 2013, 16:01: Message edited by: Jon in the Nati ]
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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
Posts: 773 | From: Region formerly known as the Biretta Belt | Registered: Aug 2010
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Okay, that's at least the second person who has referred to 'pro-abortion' politicians. Even as someone who tends to think more on the 'pro-life' side of that particular Dead Horse, I don't think 'pro-abortion' is a good term at all.
Can someone clarify briefly, and without spinning off into major debate, what the RCC position on abortion is? Is it no abortion, ever? Not in rape cases, not in medical emergencies where the death of the unborn child will help the mother survive?
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
Well, I'll let the RCs speak for themselves, but it is the canonical terminology they use. Use 'pro-choice' or another arguably-more-PC term, and the answer is still the same.
**carefully tiptoes around horse carcass**
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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
Posts: 773 | From: Region formerly known as the Biretta Belt | Registered: Aug 2010
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
b. they'll be taken by surprise if and when he does something that's been a long time in coming.
Like?
If we knew it wouldn't be a surprise, would it?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Can someone clarify briefly, and without spinning off into major debate, what the RCC position on abortion is?
It is stated simply and clearly in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Scroll down to 2270 at this link.
[ 15. March 2013, 16:32: Message edited by: Pancho ]
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
Well, I'll let the RCs speak for themselves, but it is the canonical terminology they use.
[drafting hat on]
Seriously?? Because that would be a surprisingly colloquial term to find in something like canon law. [/drafting hat off]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Can someone clarify briefly, and without spinning off into major debate, what the RCC position on abortion is?
It is stated simply and clearly in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Scroll down to 2270 at this link.
Thanks Pancho. Much appreciated.
Although it seems to be rather overstating the case, given that human life isn't "protected absolutely" after birth and never has been. Rather too simple and clear, actually. But "having the rights of a person" is good.
Oh dear, I still have my drafting hat on, don't I... and it's the weekend...
[ 15. March 2013, 16:37: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
I don't disagree, orfeo. To be fair, it probably is not used in the canons themselves.
But it is used all the time in the canonical commentary and analysis; if very careful canonical thinkers like Peters and Cdl. Burke are using it in canonical analysis, I don't have much to say about it. In anycase, read some of the stuff I linked to, if you are interested. I suspect it would be as fascinating for you as a legislative drafter as it was for me as a former attorney.
[ 15. March 2013, 16:46: Message edited by: Jon in the Nati ]
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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
Posts: 773 | From: Region formerly known as the Biretta Belt | Registered: Aug 2010
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Although it seems to be rather overstating the case, given that human life isn't "protected absolutely" after birth and never has been.
That is why the Catechism says "Human life must be respected and protected absolutely..." and it is where the Church's other teachings on the dignity of the human person come in.
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Wow. This could have profound consequences for Catholic politicians...
I'm not saying the new Pope going to come in like gangbusters right away and excommunicate people left and right (as much as certain Catholics would like that). I do think he won't be shy about stating clearly not only the Church's teaching but it's consequences and that may lead to some confrontations, perhaps sooner than later.
My main point, though, was to not think of him as a transitional Pope, not just because of whatever surprises his pontificate might hold in store for us but also because it can lull people into thinking of him as a "caretaker" Pope rather than an active one.
quote:
quote:
Besides that, I think he will be more explicit in expressing the Church's teaching on the poor and the immigrants (remember he is the son of an immigrant) and making for less wiggle room in following that teaching.
On this point, of course, I hope he is heard!
You know, I really wonder what his first encyclical is going to be like. I wouldn't be surprised if it's going to be a social encyclical dealing with poverty (perhaps drawing a connection between spiritual poverty and material poverty?). I might even bet on it (I'm on a roll!) but I don't want to push my luck.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Pancho: quote:
My main point, though, was to not think of him as a transitional Pope, not just because of whatever surprises his pontificate might hold in store for us but also because it can lull people into thinking of him as a "caretaker" Pope rather than an active one.
Pope John XXIII was supposed to be a "transitional pope". Boy, was he a surprise! A man can get a lot done in a short time.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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