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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: White Smoke! Discuss the new pope...
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Pope John XXIII was supposed to be a "transitional pope". Boy, was he a surprise! A man can get a lot done in a short time.
Yep. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) Great example.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
Eh? Have you even read the link?
Yes, I did:
...Again .. it's the action of a politician to focus on what is 'reasonable'.
Where in your quote does it say he focused only on what was reasonable? It says instead that "Bergoglio took extraordinary, behind-the-scenes action". This is why I asked you whether you even read the link.
In your quote it looks like he was accused of turning his back on a woman when in actual fact he assigned someone specifically to investigate and help the woman over a period of many months. This attempt unfortunately failed, but it can hardly be called turning his back on her.
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Although it seems to be rather overstating the case, given that human life isn't "protected absolutely" after birth and never has been.
That is why the Catechism says "Human life must be respected and protected absolutely..." and it is where the Church's other teachings on the dignity of the human person come in.
But it simply isn't Biblical to treat it as an absolute. The exceptions should be kept as small as possible, sure. But the Bible certainly has exceptions. People get killed, and the act of killing is not treated as absolutely, always, morally wrong.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Okay, that's at least the second person who has referred to 'pro-abortion' politicians. Even as someone who tends to think more on the 'pro-life' side of that particular Dead Horse, I don't think 'pro-abortion' is a good term at all.
Of course the term "pro-abortion politician" does not occur in canon law. Typically it is Canon 915 which is brought into play: "Can. 915 Those who have been excommunicated or interdicted after the imposition or declaration of the penalty and others obstinately persevering in manifest grave sin are not to be admitted to holy communion." Persistent and public lobbying for abortion provisions is then considered to be manifest grave sin, whereupon the Eucharist can be denied (without excommunication). Note that in general it is an explicit right of Catholics to receive the Eucharist: "Can. 912 Any baptized person not prohibited by law can and must be admitted to holy communion." So this is not simply a decision that a priest or bishop can take by whim. Abortion itself is clearly grave sin; the only serious canon-legal issue here is whether the support of a politician for institutionalizing grave sin is itself a grave sin. If so, then Canon 915 clearly grips and not only can the Eucharist be denied, but should be.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Not in rape cases, not in medical emergencies where the death of the unborn child will help the mother survive?
Not in rape cases, not directly to save the mother, but indirectly through double effect. The point is simply that abortion is the killing of an innocent, an intrinsic evil, and hence is not available as a direct action no matter what (one may not do evil to achieve good). However, one can do something that saves the mother, which unintentionally (though possibly predictably) kills the unborn child, if the outcome is preferable. So, for example, in ectopic pregnancies it is allowed to cut out the fallopian tube containing the fetus, indirectly killing it, but not to destroying it directly with chemicals or by mechanically removing it from the tube. Obviously, this is the kind of advanced hair-splitting, which leaves a bitter taste in most people's mouths. Nevertheless, I think the moral principles are sound. They are merely stretched to near breaking point by really tough cases.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Personally I don't have a problem with that kind of 'advanced hair-splitting', because it's entirely consistent with views on the difference between euthanasia and palliative care.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
And that kind of careful thinking is what is needed when the really hard cases have to be decided. Without wanting to take this too far into dead horse territory, I guess that abortion to save the life of the mother presents the most difficult ethical case. If either could survive, but both can't, then which life is regarded as most valuable. If the non-intervention of the doctor means that both will die, but the intervention means that one will die, how is the doctor to choose which one will survive.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I read somewhere a couple of days ago, that yes, John Paul I specifically taking the I was an innovation.
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Maybe it's one of those lovely little details where it's a case of "I'm Pope and I can do what I like."
It seems a relatively slight liberty to have taken compared with the excesses of the afore-mentioned Borgia.
Wasn't there a bit of discussion at the time whether the number of Johns or the number of Pauls should be the number attached to his Papal name? The answer: 1.
(Or is my vague memory of number discussion totally wrong?)
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
Interestingly, the state of Maryland is voting on outlawing the death penalty. It's my understanding that, while the Catholic Church is willing to stipulate that capital punishment is permissible in a very narrow, fairly rare set of circumstances it has long held that the overzealous and capricious way it's applied in most American states falls under the category of "other serious crimes against life and family", to borrow a phrase from Triple Tiara's cited document. At any rate, it'll be interesting to see if Catholic politicians who vote in what the Catholic Church considers "the wrong way" on this bill will suffer any consequences for it.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Pope John XXIII was supposed to be a "transitional pope". Boy, was he a surprise! A man can get a lot done in a short time.
Yep. Great example.
Our Archbishop Emeritus, Cardinal Murphy-O'Connor put it brilliantly today: "I would rather have 5 years of an evangelical pope than 15 years of an administrator".
(evangelical as Catholics use the word of course, not in the sense as used by Anglicans and others to denote a theological position)
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
At any rate, it'll be interesting to see if Catholic politicians who vote in what the Catholic Church considers "the wrong way" on this bill will suffer any consequences for it.
Canon law is not a general tool to beat RC politicians around the ears with. Abortion is intrinsically and gravely evil, the death penalty can be morally licit. The former is rejected in principle, the latter only through the prudent consideration of the socio-political circumstances. The former cannot be supported without injury to core RC moral teaching, the latter can. Therefore the former is a potential matter for RC canon law, whereas the latter is essentially a matter for the prudential judgement of lay people (including RC lay people). It is after all actually the vocation of lay people, not of the religious hierarchy, to keep society running. One can expect the RC bishops to teach concerning the death penalty, possibly publicly and severely, so that the RC faithful are suitably informed about what RC faith and morals say on the subject. But the prudential political decision remains in the hands of lay people. It is for RC bishops to judge RC politicians on abortion though, precisely because that is not about prudential politics but about their fundamental morals as RCs.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Therefore the former is a potential matter for RC canon law, whereas the latter is essentially a matter for the prudential judgement of lay people (including RC lay people). It is after all actually the vocation of lay people, not of the religious hierarchy, to keep society running. One can expect the RC bishops to teach concerning the death penalty, possibly publicly and severely, so that the RC faithful are suitably informed about what RC faith and morals say on the subject. But the prudential political decision remains in the hands of lay people.
But if, as you seem to be saying, the RC position on state-ordered executions is essentially "meh, whatever, work it out for yourself", what exactly would the bishops be teaching? That whatever "prudential judgement" the government comes up with for applying lethal force (trial by jury? coin flip? whim of local death squad?) is okey-dokey with the Vatican?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
But if, as you seem to be saying, the RC position on state-ordered executions is essentially "meh, whatever, work it out for yourself", what exactly would the bishops be teaching? That whatever "prudential judgement" the government comes up with for applying lethal force (trial by jury? coin flip? whim of local death squad?) is okey-dokey with the Vatican?
Well, you could simply read this. Basically:
quote:
In Catholic teaching the state has recourse to impose the death penalty upon criminals convicted of heinous crimes if this ultimate sanction is the only available means to protect society from a grave threat to human life. However, this right should not be exercised when other ways are available to punish criminals and to protect society that are more respectful of human life. In these pastoral reflections, we do not offer new teaching or doctrine but rather hope to help Catholics better understand and apply this teaching in our own time and situation.
It is however not the job of bishops to micro-manage political decisions.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
It is however not the job of bishops to micro-manage political decisions.
I'm pretty sure you mean it's only the bishops' job to micromanage certain specific political decisions. Enacting/enforcing a legal code based on double effect would involve an incredible amount of micromanagement.
[ 15. March 2013, 20:55: Message edited by: Crœsos ]
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Abortion itself is clearly grave sin; the only serious canon-legal issue here is whether the support of a politician for institutionalizing grave sin is itself a grave sin.
Is voting against making it illegal the same as institutionalizing it? In what dictionary?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Enacting/enforcing a legal code based on double effect would involve an incredible amount of micromanagement.
Hardly. Double effect is a standard principle in the medical world. Why do you think a surgeon is allowed to cut you open, which is after all causing you grievous bodily harm? Also, arguing for regulations according to moral law is something else than turning those arguments into efficient regulations. For example, a simple list of allowed practices can do. In particular if there's really only one entry...
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Is voting against making it illegal the same as institutionalizing it? In what dictionary?
Do you have a point? If the politician is merely voting against making abortion illegal, then the only serious canon-legal issue is whether that is in itself a grave sin.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Obviously, this is the kind of advanced hair-splitting, which leaves a bitter taste in most people's mouths. Nevertheless, I think the moral principles are sound. They are merely stretched to near breaking point by really tough cases.
Outside of the specific instance, do you believe that what is morally right in a new or disputed situation can always be arrived at by distilling principles from existing, agreed upon moral situations? Are there not circumstances where the consequences of moral reasoning of this kind are so contrary to our natural sense of justice that the principles are in fact stretched well beyond breaking point? I would venture that the bitter taste is the aroma of Pharisee.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Is voting against making it illegal the same as institutionalizing it? In what dictionary?
Do you have a point?
Politeness in short supply in your town? Yes, my point is that politicians do not "institutionalize" abortion, so the whole concept is moot. There's no such thing as "institutionalizing" abortion.
[ 15. March 2013, 23:21: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Since when was the death penalty EVER the "only available means to protect society from a grave threat to human life"? Are there no locks on the jail cell doors where these people come from?
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Politeness in short supply in your town?
Polite as "In what dictionary"?
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Yes, my point is that politicians do not "institutionalize" abortion, so the whole concept is moot. There's no such thing as "institutionalizing" abortion.
First, my actual point was that it is not abortion itself, but merely whatever politicians do about abortion, that needs to be evaluated concerning canon 915. Because abortion is intrinsically evil for RC morals, hence there are no circumstances where politics that aids and abets it becomes morally licit. The question is precisely whether what politicians in fact do rises itself to the level of grave sin (canon 915 applies), or not. Second, this is not the place for a full scale analysis of the politics of abortion. However, washing your hands of things and leaving it to others to take matters in their hands in a rather predictable manner does not necessarily shed all moral responsibility, Pontius.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Since when was the death penalty EVER the "only available means to protect society from a grave threat to human life"? Are there no locks on the jail cell doors where these people come from?
I'm against the death penalty, personally, so I'm not going to make a case for it. But there are certainly circumstances where I can see this being the case. Imagine a hunter and gatherer tribe somewhere: you do not have the resources to keep a psychopathic murderer confined and under treatment for decades, and if let loose, he can seriously harm you from the outside. For the US, you would have to claim that only the threat of the death penalty stops the society from descending into chaos, or some such. Again, not my argument, and I would consider all such argument ridiculously weak, but I'm sure some will make it.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
Christians see holiness as the quality that makes a person pure before God. It also has the meaning of being 'set apart', consecrated to God and His purposes. Being a man (or woman) of prayer is very much part of that.
Being 'holy' doesn't mean one has to be a puritan about enjoying oneself. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
And I would be very worried if any definition of holiness did NOT include kindness, thoughtfulness and all the rest. To be holy is to aim to be like Jesus. What was He like? Kind, good, thoughtful, compassionate, etc etc etc. And close to God. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Thank you for your reply; straightforward and clear ... and much appreciated.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Well, from his press conference this morning it is official that the Francis is after Francis of Assisi. And with this 'poor Church for the poor" I sense a little reformation in the air. Though the cynical me wonders if this means the Vatican bank is about to go fut bang.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
I watched the press conference on the Vatican videostream. If today is anything to go by, the Church is in for quite a remarkable pontificate...
He said that it's all about Christ, and not about the Pope.
I must say I liked Francis' style. He frequently looked up from his printed speech, spoke freely, made two or three jokes, laughed in an open and frank way, and yet he had a very intense and serious way about him when he came to issues that were important to him.
And in a time when all we think about when Catholicism is mentioned is scandals financial and sexual, the debate on women priests and the celibate and other such issues, Francis has the guts of pointing us to what should really matter to the church as an institution: the poor.
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
I watched it too. I share your view that we are in for (yet another) remarkable pontificate. The only thing I didn't take to was the silent blessing. Given the reasons he gave, it was suggestive of faith being silenced in the face of disbelief.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Meg the Red
Shipmate
# 11838
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
And in a time when all we think about when Catholicism is mentioned is scandals financial and sexual, the debate on women priests and the celibate and other such issues, Francis has the guts of pointing us to what should really matter to the church as an institution: the poor.
A wise cleric of my acquaintance once defined agape as "willing (not just wishing) the highest good" for people. What should matter to the leaders of the RC Church, and those of any other institution purporting to represent Christ, is whether their practices are willing the highest good for those they say they serve.
I applaud the Pope's stance on poverty. as lack of resources and opportunity keep people from reaching their potential. So actively battling poverty wills the highest good for those in oppressed by poverty.
Does institutionalized sexism keep people from reaching their God-given potential? I would posit that it does - so it is evidently not working toward their highest good.
Covering and enabling sexual misconduct does not work for the highest good of either victims or offenders.
These issues are not going away, nor should they: The Holy Father's focus on poverty is only part of the Church's larger mission to agape all of God's children, including the ones it has helped to oppress.
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Chocoholic Canuckistani Cyclopath
Posts: 1126 | From: Rat Creek | Registered: Sep 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I think this man's personal style is going to gain him a very large amount of goodwill, at least for the time being. He could improve the reputation of the RCC in the wider community simply by virtue of being a man that people find easy to like.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Yes. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a resurgence of interest in the coming weeks from people who have drifted away.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
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Posted
Is there a full video of the press conference online somewhere? Anyone know?
Thanks. ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
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Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
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Posted
Ah. May have found it on Vatican Radio video-on-demand, direct link here!
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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
Francis reminds me a bit of the Dalai Lama in his openness, frankness, simple vocab expressing Great Truths, humour.
(This is a compliment from me, just to be clear)
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wesley J:
Ah. May have found it on Vatican Radio video-on-demand, direct link here!
That doesn't work for me - you have to download and install Silverlight first.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Yes. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a resurgence of interest in the coming weeks from people who have drifted away.
And then they'll realise he is stridently orthodox on Dead Horses and bugger off again.
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
Pope Francis could be "stridently orthodox on DH issues" and still be more pastoral and less alienating than his immediate predecessors. More accurately, he might be fully "orthodox" on these issues, without being verbally "strident" in a way that so readily offends. Further, there are accomodations that can be made without compromising the existing magisterium, especially regarding the role of women in the Church. The hierarchy, taking its cues from the Pope, can also take a different approach on which battles to fight in the political arena of civil society. A re-thinking of priorities regarding activism doesn't necessarily compromise doctrine -- nor does a re-thinking of pastoral approaches.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Politeness in short supply in your town?
Polite as "In what dictionary"?
Please. Tell me you're joking.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Knock it off you two, or take it to hell.
Doublethink
Purgatory Host
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Knocking off.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Wesley J:
Ah. May have found it on Vatican Radio video-on-demand, direct link here!
That doesn't work for me - you have to download and install Silverlight first.
Yep. Worked on IE (which I normally don't use) and have updated the Silverlight plug-in for Firefox. If there's a way to watch w/o Silverlight, I'd be happy to find out.
Vatican Radio site in English is here: http://en.radiovaticana.va/index.asp
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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Yes. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a resurgence of interest in the coming weeks from people who have drifted away.
And then they'll realise he is stridently orthodox on Dead Horses and bugger off again.
Strident Orthodoxy on Dead Horses is expected but a bit of strident Orthopraxis hasn't been by the wider world. And words are only incidental to that sort of preaching.
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hawk:
Where in your quote does it say he focused only on what was reasonable? It says instead that "Bergoglio took extraordinary, behind-the-scenes action". This is why I asked you whether you even read the link.
He was amongst the leaders of the church in a country under a dictatorship. A dictatorship which seems to have drawn succour from the fact that it had the tacit approval of the church. There's some evidence that the two people involved were arrested because the regime didn't think they had his support .. but he intervened in secret once they were, whilst never actually using his platform publicly.
He appears to have adopted a see no evil approach to the children of the disappeared - which is a huge issue in Argentina.
In all this his actions have been in character with the rest of the Argentine church - a church that felt compelled to apologise for it's conduct. A church which acted with significantly less courage than - say - the polish catholics.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
The only thing I didn't take to was the silent blessing. Given the reasons he gave, it was suggestive of faith being silenced in the face of disbelief.
I can see how one could view it that way. But as a non-Catholic, I appreciated his respect for others' consciences. I think, too, that that approach to blessing people does a lot more to attract non-Catholics than offering a distinctly Catholic blessing to non-Catholics. If you want people to change, you first have to take them as they are.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wesley J:
Yep. Worked on IE (which I normally don't use) and have updated the Silverlight plug-in for Firefox. If there's a way to watch w/o Silverlight, I'd be happy to find out.
Vatican Radio site in English is here: http://en.radiovaticana.va/index.asp
Brilliant, thanks for that. The radio even works just with Flash.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
Francis reminds me a bit of the Dalai Lama in his openness, frankness, simple vocab expressing Great Truths, humour.
(This is a compliment from me, just to be clear)
I made the same mental comparison.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
RuthW: quote:
But as a non-Catholic, I appreciated his respect for others' consciences. I think, too, that that approach to blessing people does a lot more to attract non-Catholics than offering a distinctly Catholic blessing to non-Catholics.
Perhaps I am missing something here, but how is a blessing in the name of the Father,Son and Holy Spirit from a Christian going to offend another Christian? Even if you are not Christian and you go where a Christian is speaking and is likely to end with a blessing, surely you just accept it in the spirit in which it is offered? Where I am presently living I am often the recipient of Hindu and Muslim blessings. I accept them because you can never have too many blessings, and to ignore them causes needless offense.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Ruth will confirm or deny, but I understood "non-Catholic" to be used in the sense of "anyone but Catholics", i.e. it could include Anglicans, Jews, Muslims and atheists.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
But my question remains: Why would a non-Catholic Christian find it difficult to accept a Catholic Christian's blessing? Or indeed vice-versa? Not so many blessings going around that we can afford to be choosy it seems to me.
I am probably still missing something.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Mary LA
Shipmate
# 17040
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Posted
Many prayers at Mass this morning for Pope Francis, great enthusiasm and affection for 'The Holy Father who loves the poor'. We had visitors from El Salvador and Venezuela who expressed hopes for the beatification of Oscar Romero now that we have a Latin American Pope.
(El Salvador commemorated the 33rd anniversary of the assassination of Archbishop Romero on Saturday, March 16, as the date itself, March 24, coincides with the Church’s liturgical feast of Palm Sunday.)
The liturgy posted by Trisagion (many thanks) looks beautiful and I hope we can follow the live ceremony from out here.
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“I often wonder if we were all characters in one of God's dreams.”
― Muriel Spark
Posts: 499 | From: Africa | Registered: Apr 2012
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Pope Francis has given up the red shoes. I wonder if the shoe makers were affronted?
Maybe Benedict can put his back on now?
I didn't even know the Pope wore red shoes until all the recent publicity, but I find it fascinating.
One article says "But when red shoes were the height of fashion in Etruscan Rome, that is, five hundred years before the birth of Jesus, they designated the wearer as an aristocrat, someone who could afford leather that had been colored with the most expensive dye in the Mediterranean, Phoenician “purple”—which was actually scarlet red. (It was produced by scoring the bodies of molluscs and ranged in color from blue to red, with red the most prized shade.) The leather itself came not from kangaroos, of course, but from the Chianina cattle, who came to Italy together with the Etruscans and provided the ancestral form of Florentine beefsteak."
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
I think we have a candidate for canonization in due course if he keeps this up. Potential huge cult following. He hasn't been out of the news since Wednesday - mostly popes start off in a splash of publicity then fade into obscurity as far as the general public are concerned, appearing only occasionally in the media to utter theological platitudes, do the Easter Blessing and a few state visits before fading away again. I don't see that happening with Francis.
I think he'll also make a few enemies in the Vatican with people who have been enjoying things the way they are, the perks and privileges etc. About time that was shaken up.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
Oh for the love of God. ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
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Posted
Care to specify?
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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
Oh for the love of God.
I know, I know, CL -- makes one's head hurt, doesn't it?
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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