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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: White Smoke! Discuss the new pope...
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I also read that they are going to tour the Holy Land together?
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
Well the Patriarch has invited him - now that would be something!
Commentator named the Patriarch the "main leader" of the Orthodox Church, which may be more correct, no?
I loved the fact that the Pope referred to him as "My brother Andrew".
Golly. What interesting times.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
It's promising, isn't it? He seems to understand very well the immense importance both of having goodwill and expressing it.
Wonder how he'll get on with Justin Welby?
[ 20. March 2013, 21:52: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Seems good ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Commentator named the Patriarch the "main leader" of the Orthodox Church, which may be more correct, no?
How hard is it to say "first among equals"? Sheesh.
And yes, wonderful times, at least as far as this goes.
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Just invite the Patriarch of Moscow and be done with it. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I also read that they are going to tour the Holy Land together?
All of those people? That would be some tour. Even Rolling Stone would find it bizarro.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
I wonder now how he will cope with being snowed under with the problems and the paper that are probabably overwhelming his desk right now.
As far as the public persona, I think he is marvellous. I hope he is a good administrator and delegates efficiently.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
He's not finished with his surprises. It now seems that the Mass of the Last Supper, with the washing of the feet will now be said in a juvenile corrections facility rather than the Basilica of S. John Lateran.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
He's not finished with his surprises. It now seems that the Mass of the Last Supper, with the washing of the feet will now be said in a juvenile corrections facility rather than the Basilica of S. John Lateran.
I find myself liking him more and more... let's hope he keeps it up and doesn't become, as Sir Humphrey would say, "house-trained in no time."
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
The big shock for him will be reading the dossiers about the goings-on in the curia compiled on orders of B XVI by the three cardinals.
And the next big question will be the appointments he will make. That will say a lot about the intended course of his papacy.
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Just invite the Patriarch of Moscow and be done with it.
Kirill would probably be more than happy to attend but for the fact that his hands are tied by internal ROC politics.
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Just invite the Patriarch of Moscow and be done with it.
Kirill would probably be more than happy to attend but for the fact that his hands are tied by internal ROC politics.
If Putin gave him permission, he could jump off his lap and run down there.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
The big shock for him will be reading the dossiers about the goings-on in the curia compiled on orders of B XVI by the three cardinals.
And the next big question will be the appointments he will make. That will say a lot about the intended course of his papacy.
The problems begin and end with the Secretariat of State and more generally with time-serving Spirit of VII middle management. The heads and secretaries of the important Congregations and offices are mostly good men; Muller, Canizares, Burke, DiNoia, Ouellet, Piacenza, etc. Bertone, Sodano, their cronies and fellow travellers are the cancer that need to be excised.
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Just invite the Patriarch of Moscow and be done with it.
Kirill would probably be more than happy to attend but for the fact that his hands are tied by internal ROC politics.
If Putin gave him permission, he could jump off his lap and run down there.
Misplaced cynicism. Putin is a non-issue, the problem is the hardcore nationalist constituency of ROC who would have preferred Kliment to have become Patriarch.
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
I wonder what Benedict XVI makes of so may people saying things along the lines of, "Isn't it great now that we have a nice Pope"?
I doubt he gives it a second thought.
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
He's not finished with his surprises. It now seems that the Mass of the Last Supper, with the washing of the feet will now be said in a juvenile corrections facility rather than the Basilica of S. John Lateran.
Good for him!
Ok, so far, it seems that:
--He's allergic to pomp and circumstance.
--He tries to be inclusive of folks who Aren't Our Sort (tm), or not on the usual papal itinerary for a particular event.
--He can quiet a crowd, as he did with that silent prayer when he was first presented.
--He talked a lot about protecting people and the environment during his inaugural sermon. He did specifically mention protecting kids, though not as strongly as I would've liked.
--"Late Night" host David Letterman pointed out that F had once been a bouncer at a bar, and that maybe that would help him take care of "the creepy priests".
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
--A lady in Argentina said F proposed to her, long ago, saying he'd become a priest if she turned him down. She did, and he did, and she says she's partially responsible for his becoming pope!
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
--He likes to do everyday sorts of things, like cooking for himself and riding buses and checking out of a hotel.
--There are questions about how he handled the dangerous times in Argentina.
Should be interesting!
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
He isn't celebrating Maundy Thursday mass at St. John Lateran's because he hasn't taken possession of it yet. Sorry to burst the iconoclast bubble.
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
He isn't celebrating Maundy Thursday mass at St. John Lateran's because he hasn't taken possession of it yet. Sorry to burst the iconoclast bubble.
Celebrating Mass at a young offenders' institute is surely something to still take notice of, though? I mean one would assume it would normally be held in a church even if the Pope hadn't taken possession of St John Lateran's yet.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Have they mislaid the keys or what? Why wouldn't he have "taken possession" of it yet?
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
He isn't celebrating Maundy Thursday mass at St. John Lateran's because he hasn't taken possession of it yet. Sorry to burst the iconoclast bubble.
A more careful reading of Vatican website notes that it had been scheduled for the Vatican Basilica, but has now been moved to the youth prison. So your bubble burst too. Sorry about that.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Have they mislaid the keys or what? Why wouldn't he have "taken possession" of it yet?
There is a formal ceremony in which a Bishop takes possession of the Cathedral of his See. In this case, St John Lateran is the seat of the Bishop of Rome (the Pope)
It hasn't happened yet.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Have they mislaid the keys or what? Why wouldn't he have "taken possession" of it yet?
There is a formal ceremony in which a Bishop takes possession of the Cathedral of his See. In this case, St John Lateran is the seat of the Bishop of Rome (the Pope)
It hasn't happened yet.
Crazy Latins. (I wonder if our bishops have to go through something like this? It's like those bloody hobbits having to have seven signatures in red ink to sell a desk lamp to a blind man.)
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Well it's a bit quicker than the installation of the Archbishop of Canterbury ... from last Autumn to yesterday.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
You know, I really wonder what his first encyclical is going to be like. I wouldn't be surprised if it's going to be a social encyclical dealing with poverty (perhaps drawing a connection between spiritual poverty and material poverty?).
Hmmm. Maybe I'm on to something...
Spiritual Poverty Threatens World Peace, Pope Says
quote:
“Fighting poverty, both material and spiritual, building peace and constructing bridges: these, as it were, are the reference points for a journey that I want to invite each of the countries here represented to take up,” Pope Francis said March 22.
quote:
“But there is another form of poverty!” he told the diplomats.
“It is the spiritual poverty of our time, which afflicts the so-called richer countries particularly seriously.
“It is what my much-loved predecessor, Benedict XVI, called the ‘tyranny of relativism,’ which makes everyone his own criterion and endangers the coexistence of peoples,” he said.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Good grief! First you picked the pope, now you're telling us what he's going to say before he says it. Who gave you the hotline and the big red telephone?!?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Well have you seen them both in the same room together? ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
He isn't celebrating Maundy Thursday mass at St. John Lateran's because he hasn't taken possession of it yet. Sorry to burst the iconoclast bubble.
A more careful reading of Vatican website notes that it had been scheduled for the Vatican Basilica, but has now been moved to the youth prison. So your bubble burst too. Sorry about that.
I'm well aware of that.
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
It occurs to me that some of the rapidity of change in pomp and circumstance might have been needed whomever took over - it is a strong signal for the pope to say he is his own man, not a proxy for B16.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
Sorry to burst the iconoclast bubble.
What iconoclasm? I think visiting the imprisoned is a beautiful icon of Christian charity.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
Sorry to burst the iconoclast bubble.
What iconoclasm? I think visiting the imprisoned is a beautiful icon of Christian charity.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
Bishop of Rome meets Bishop of Rome Emeritus. BXVI appears very frail.
And interview with Pope Francis, then Cardinal Bergoglio, is here.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
Sorry to burst the iconoclast bubble.
What iconoclasm? I think visiting the imprisoned is a beautiful icon of Christian charity.
It's one of the acts of charity, and one which (at least) Canadian Xns are not too keen on--- it is a totally admirable way for a new bishop to being his ministry in a new diocese. Would that Anglican prelates follow his example.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
XVI appears very frail.
I second your
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
And interview with Pope Francis, then Cardinal Bergoglio, is here.
It sheds quite a bit of light on what Pope Francis is bringing to the table. Yeah, definitely we in the West waste incredible amounts on vain delights while the seriously poor suffer.
But for a Pope named Francis to dislike pets? Que horrible! There goes the annual Blessing of the Animals.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
I note in the Vatican video that he is still wearing his quilted jacket in the chapel.
I seriously doubt that he was up to much discussion of current affairs in the Vatican.
I pray for his health He does indeed look frail.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
AP article, via Yahoo: "Pope reluctant to become pope. What does it mean?"
I wonder if he wants to run away screaming yet?
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
How is his acceptance of the Papacy different than that of his immediate predecessors?
quote:
I accept this [the papacy] as a cross
He is quite an unusual man. As a priest and archbishop he was also unusual.
Time will tell if he tames the Vatican or vice-verso.
For now, he is ahead on points.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
The story goes that he walked into the Papal apartments, took one look around, said "You could fit 300 people in here. I don't need all this space" and indeed is now living with the other cardinals.
This is how it should be. Accessible, visible, not remote and only seen on state occasions.
He's going to be a very hard act to follow at this rate (I mean when the time comes for another new Pope), if he keeps this up.
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
He's going to be a very hard act to follow at this rate (I mean when the time comes for another new Pope), if he keeps this up.
Indeed he is. But what, of course, Papa Benedetto's retirement has shown us is the importance of the office rather than that of the office-holder. As a consequence, "when the time comes" is entirely in the Holy Father's hands (well, and God's!)
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
Let's just hope all this doesn't descend into some kind of personality cult like with JPII, though I have to say what I've seen is quite positive and Francis and Benedict meeting was quite touching, I thought.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
agree, the danger of a personality cult is acutely there with Francis, but I guess that's to do with human nature, many people need it. It should of course not be fostered but cannot be fully avoided; maybe Francis is able to turn it into something good. If he manages to increase the visibility of "Franciscan" values, that would be a definite win. I pray for him a lot these days because on top of getting used to being Pope and running the marathon of Holy Week/Easter celebrations, he has to get acquainted with, and digest (!) the burning issues and problems in the Curia. Bergoglio was not among the Cardinals who knew much about the goings-on (few outside Rome did), and I fear that now he has access to documents and information he must be quite shocked and saddened. Cleaning up the filth will be an ungrateful, difficult job. May God give him strength for it.
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
And interview with Pope Francis, then Cardinal Bergoglio, is here.
It sheds quite a bit of light on what Pope Francis is bringing to the table. Yeah, definitely we in the West waste incredible amounts on vain delights while the seriously poor suffer.
But for a Pope named Francis to dislike pets? Que horrible! There goes the annual Blessing of the Animals.
I was watching the interview but about halfway through it froze up. I base my comments on what I heard him say about pets in the first half of the interview that I heard. If he had further comments in the 2nd half of the interview i didn't hear them.
I am very much an animal welfare/rights advocate (whether companion animals or animals in the wild), but i don't think Cardinal Bergoglio was talking about liking or disliking pets per se. He seemed to be referring to an (unfortunately un-cited and un-contextualised) economic survey about consumer spending, whether Argentina-only or worldwide, or what population, i don't know. That survey (by whomever) said that the highest amount of consumer spending was on pets and the second highest was on cosmetics.
I thus take it that his criticism was on excessive spending on luxuries. I think he probably had in mind the kind of spending on pets among some rich people that one reads about, (e.g., jewelled collars, fancy funerals and expensive burials -- stuff which i'm sure the animal doesn't care about -- and spending lavish amounts on special breeds). I would agree that such are vain delights while the seriously poor suffer. I don't think it was a criticism per se about companion animals. And again, to put it into perspective, he had equally critical things to say about cosmetics
I make sure my beloved feline companion, a rescue animal, is well fed and is in good health. Even good quality cat food is no where near as expensive as the human food i buy, especially given the small volume of food she eats compared to a human. And so far her health care has not been expensive. If the need arose, I would spend what was needed to return her to health, although i wouldn't spend money uselessly.
At one of his public gatherings he made a point of showing affection to the guide dog of a blind journalist. So i don't think he dislikes animals.
[ 28. March 2013, 18:05: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
One has to see the man Bergoglio in context.
I am no Che Guevara, but anyone who has ever watched the burghers of Recoleta or other bourgeois quarters of Buenos Aires walk their pooches (or rather, have them walked by professional dog-walkers) across the lawns of their leafy enclaves will come to say similar things... I've seen few places where pooch-mania has taken to such collective heights of absurdity as it has in parts of Buenos Aires.
I love animals. I sometimes even think I prefer them to people. But I fully understand in this case where Bergoglio was coming from.
[ 28. March 2013, 18:37: Message edited by: Desert Daughter ]
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
One has to see the man Bergoglio in context.
I am no Che Guevara, but anyone who has ever watched the burghers of Recoleta or other bourgeois quarters of Buenos Aires walk their pooches (or rather, have them walked by professional dog-walkers) across the lawns of their leafy enclaves will come to say similar things... I've seen few places where pooch-mania has taken to such collective heights of absurdity as it has in parts of Buenos Aires.
I love animals. I sometimes even think I prefer them to people. But I fully understand in this case where Bergoglio was coming from.
I would second this-- I have had very pleasant strolls (aside from the dog poo, as nobody in any sector of Buenos Aires or any level of society picks up after their dogs--- avoid sandals if you can) through the Recoleta (with its incredible cemetery), and have seen the dogwalkers at work, as well as the many many many petshops with their expensive food and animal toys. And then have taken the collectivo (the local buses), filing through little posses of street kids selling pencils or candies to make enough pesos for their dinner... I would think that the then-cardinal's words were worth saying.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
I wonder, sometimes, if the Cardinals in conclave knew what they were doing, exactly.
They might have expected changes, but this tornado is wonderful and different. The last I saw of something like this was when John XXIII was elected, and, in the context of his time, set out to make his mark.
I had a hope that Papa Luciano would have done the same, but he was lost, too soon, to us.
I pray for Francis, the Pope. Vivat.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Mary LA
Shipmate
# 17040
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Posted
That intimate footwashing ceremony for Maundy Thursday was so moving and yet disconcerting.
Out here there is great hopefulness, uncertainty and consternation for some older Catholics.
I’m not someone who has ever had much time with the ‘personality cult’ that sometimes develops around Popes (as a convert in the early 1980s, I was baffled by the huge popularity and celebrity attention given to the younger JPII) and as yet we know little of who Pope Francis is and what he might do in office. But what an edgy, challenging and inspiring start to his papacy! And I feel (especially from here in Africa) that the poor are hearing him, they know he will speak for them, try to encourage the priests to come out to them in the slums and refugee camps. He is a Pope for everyone, but with a burning love for the outcasts.
A Shepherd who doesn’t mind afflicting the comfortable even as he comforts the afflicted.
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“I often wonder if we were all characters in one of God's dreams.”
― Muriel Spark
Posts: 499 | From: Africa | Registered: Apr 2012
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