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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: The new Archbishop
Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
In my experience, when someone says "The resurrection is more than mere resuscitation," they usually mean to say it was far less.

I'm sure that's not what David Jenkins meant.

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Truman White
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Belief in the Incarnation and the Resurrection is indeed the cornerstone of our faith. I'm not sure that the Virgin Birth should be in the same category, as it is merely one attempt to illustrate the mystery of the former. In the same way, as Bishop David Jenkins put it, there is much more to the Resurrection than the resuscitation of a bag of bones.

If you reckon God can engineer the first two (incarnation and resurrection) can't see why you'd have a problem believing in the VB.
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Zach82
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Who was it that said something along the lines of "Modern theologians, fearing that orthodox theology was working from Jesus' divinity down, decided it was much more sensible to work from Jesus' humanity down"?

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Mark Betts

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THE MIND OF ANGLICANS (conclusions from the Cost of Conscience Survey)

Confidence in The virgin birth:
FiF 82% certainty; AffCaths 24% certainty
Confidence in the bodily resurrection of Christ:
FiF: 83% certainty; AffCaths 35% certainty

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Zach82
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Mark, we've been through this before with that survey. Do you just not give a crap that it's insincere and unsubstantiated?

Or do you think you don't owe it to your fellow human beings to not slander them with propaganda?

[ 30. March 2013, 17:01: Message edited by: Zach82 ]

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Mark, we've been through this before with that survey. Do you just not give a crap that it's insincere and unsubstantiated?

Or do you think you don't owe it to your fellow human beings to not slander them with propaganda?

You mean you don't like it?

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sososlowly
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Mark,

Thank you, that's fascinating. Have you a link, or a reference? If not, do you know what was the sample size, both in absolute terms and as a proportion of the (then) membership of the two organisations?

Certainty's a very high benchmark. I can't remember the wording of the Anglican ordinal or declaration of assent but my memory is it doesn't require one to profess certainty?

And apologies to those who don't like Anglican infighting: I'm conscious we're a long way from the thread title!

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Zach82
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No, I mean by every objective account it is unsubstantiated, unfair slander. And I am very sorry for you that you are so prejudiced that you can't see that.

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
No, I mean by every objective account it is unsubstantiated, unfair slander. And I am very sorry for you that you are so prejudiced that you can't see that.

You seem to be very sure of your facts - how do you justify that?

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Zach82
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You are making the slander, so it is up to you to either come up with credible evidence or to drop the slander.

If you care about truth and charity, that is.

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Zach82
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At this point, I think I better stop bothering to engage with Mark. I've clearly crossed into hellishness and I apologize for that.

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by sososlowly:
Mark,

Thank you, that's fascinating. Have you a link, or a reference? If not, do you know what was the sample size, both in absolute terms and as a proportion of the (then) membership of the two organisations?

Certainty's a very high benchmark. I can't remember the wording of the Anglican ordinal or declaration of assent but my memory is it doesn't require one to profess certainty?

And apologies to those who don't like Anglican infighting: I'm conscious we're a long way from the thread title!

The Mind of Anglicans
THE MIND OF ANGLICANS PART II
The Mind of Anglicans Part III

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Zach82
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Don't take it too seriously, sososlowly. It only takes a casual glance to see that it's laughably spurious.

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Edward Green
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
The Mind of Anglicans
THE MIND OF ANGLICANS PART II
The Mind of Anglicans Part III

Only 84% of FiF believe in the Virgin Birth. I am horrified!

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Why are affirming catholics not counting as catholics? I'm not biting your head off, it's just that I've come across this point of view before and it just baffles me. Is conservatism an essential part of a catholic faith?...

This little note sums it up from Paul Stead's blog - (note they are his words, not mine - so don't shoot the messenger):
Won't shot you but will point out thst this log seems to be written by a 20 year-old who's just started reading theology.

I too had lots of strong views based on little evidence then.

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
[QUOTE]There are plenty - let's start with the virgin birth shall we? I'm sure you can think of plenty more if you put your mind to it.

As far as I am aware Affirming Catholicism affirms the whole of the Nicene Creed. No doubt some of its supporters do not, as there is no doctrinal requirement for joining or supporting the organisation. What evidence do you have that Affirming Catholicism does not agree with any of these doctrines? Degrees of certainty don't tell you anything very much. Would you prefer that people pretend to have more certainty than they do? I believe that the virgin birth occurred. I'm not as certain of it as I am of the Resurrection. Demanding that people be certain about their faith is a very dangerous road to walk, and an excess of certainty about what is uncertain is precisely the conservative problem.

Can I have the rest of your list, then at least we won't have to do this via 20 questions?

[ 30. March 2013, 19:24: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
...Can I have the rest of your list, then at least we won't have to do this via 20 questions?

You're very welcome to use the links I have posted above - they will give you some background as to how the figures came about.

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
...Can I have the rest of your list, then at least we won't have to do this via 20 questions?

You're very welcome to use the links I have posted above - they will give you some background as to how the figures came about.
Read them, thanks. A load of hugely biased analysis of a survey set up with the deliberate intent of supporting a position already held. They use statistics like a drunk uses a lamp post - for support rather than illumination. (with thanks to Andrew Lang)

It doesn't answer the question of what you consider to be core Catholic doctrine, or what basis you have for thinking that Affirming Catholicism does not agree with it (given that not being absolutely certain is a long way from disagreeing).

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
You're very welcome to use the links I have posted above - they will give you some background as to how the figures came about.

Unfortunately, the writeup you point to obscures the actual questions and scoring methodology so much that it is hard to determine what is actually meant by "a 70% confidence in the doctrine of the Trinity," for example. If you had a link to the survey questions and raw dataset, that would be interesting.

About the only thing that I can conclusively determine from the writeup you link to is that people who identify as FiF have more doctrinal certainty than anyone else, which given that FiF is explicitly defined by taking a stand on doctrinal certainty in opposition to the prevailing current of societal opinion, is not surprising.

Your link also points a few times to the "tiny lay membership of AffCath", which is also not surprising. The AffCath position is not under threat in the C of E. There is nobody trying to force a narrow reading of the 39 articles on everyone, nobody trying to ban reservation of the sacrament and so on, so there's no need for lay AffCath types to organize for anything.

By contrast, FiF has everything to defend. Once an honest FiF type loses sacramental assurance, he has to leave the C of E. So there's a big structural reason for FiF having a larger fraction of FiF-inclined lay people as members than AffCath. And as far as I can tell, the writeup you link to ignores that completely.

[ 30. March 2013, 20:11: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
The disbelief in the Resurrection and Virgin Birth are very strong in the more conservative of all Protestants. Its a bit like describing a cat as a quadruped to make that a hallmark of Catholicity.

Is that so? It's not been my experience, and I would not have thought it has been since the mid-eighteenth century.

Meanwhile, as Shipmates will have picked up, I'd class myself as at the Proddy end of the CofE.

Nevertheless, I believe in the Virgin Birth, the Incarnation, the Resurrection, and the Trinity. I accept the Nicene Creed, the first Seven Councils and the 39 Articles. The only things in any of those I have some ambivalence over is part of Article 39 and whether the Florentine Compromise might be better than the Western alteration to the Nicene Creed. Should I therefore be joining FiF?

I don't, by the way, accept the Immaculate Conception, am ambivalent about the Perpetual Virginity, accept the ordained ministry of women and don't agree with any of the three resolutions. So I think the answer is probably no.

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Zach82
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Catholicity is actually on a spectrum, with some denominations being more or less Catholic than others. Baptists, for example, are more Catholic than Unitarians because they affirm the Trinity. Lutherans are more Catholic yet, because they have some idea of the Real Presence in the Eucharist. The Roman Catholic Church, of course, sets itself as the only 100% Catholic sect, but if we let the pope define Catholicity, we'd all be Roman Catholics, now wouldn't we?

Though some use "Catholic" to refer to the existence of apostolic orders in a sect, but it seems to me we have been talking more about the set of beliefs defined as Catholic, rather than the charisms possessed by the Church.

[ 30. March 2013, 20:40: Message edited by: Zach82 ]

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Anglican_Brat
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Yesterday night I stumbled onto a 1955 book on US religions. In the section on the Episcopal Church, the Episcopal writer stated that all Episcopalians accepted the theological implications of the Virgin Birth but some may doubt the biological literalism of the story. He concluded that the Church had room enough for both perspectives.

Even in 1955, before John Shelby Spong, American Anglicanism strove to be comprehensive and accepting of theological diversity.

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sososlowly
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Zach,

I see, and I agree with, the point you're making. But once you start talking about whole denominations as if there were uniform levels of confidence, or certainty, within them the baby has already gone out with the bath water. And not just in the famously broad church of Anglicanism.

I could stand in the nave of my local Roman Catholic church and hit twenty people with a well aimed bread roll who have less certainty in the virgin birth than I do.

Denominations are coalitions.

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Zach82
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I'm not making that point, sososlowly. That survey is such obviously nuance-blind tripe that even discussing it is a gigantic waste of time.

[ 30. March 2013, 20:53: Message edited by: Zach82 ]

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I'm not making that point, sososlowly. That survey is such obviously nuance-blind tripe that even discussing it is a gigantic waste of time.

Of course it is Zach82. I know that the Daily Telegraph and other national newspapers were very interested at the time, but we won't worry about that, will we? You know best, of course.

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Amos

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Which other national newspapers? Not the Daily Mail, by any chance?
Of course the Torygraph was interested: it's just the sort of thing that would appeal to Damian Thompson. But that doesn't mean that the survey has any meaning or value whatsoever.

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I'm not making that point, sososlowly. That survey is such obviously nuance-blind tripe that even discussing it is a gigantic waste of time.

Of course it is Zach82. I know that the Daily Telegraph and other national newspapers were very interested at the time, but we won't worry about that, will we? You know best, of course.
The Torygraph would be interested, wouldn't they? Anything that supports their goal of portraying the mainstream of the CofE as a bunch of lefty tree huggers playing at religion. They hate that the Church was the only institution left that could challenge their beloved Thatcher in the 80s, and they hate that the church is starting to stand up for Gospel values against a government that has declared war on the poor and the disabled.
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Zach82
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I humbly suggest that we've pointed out enough of that survey's glaring weaknesses by now, in more than one thread no less. So until Mark can move past simply repeating the unsubstantiated assertions, it might be best to move on.

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sososlowly
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Sorry Zach.
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Komensky
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quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
I would suspect the ratio to be much higher than that - if you're talking about nominal Anglicans. If about practising ones then we're about equal.

There was a thread about this a couple of years ago but concentrating on things your side of the pond. I can't remember how it went.

Roman Catholics, by some distance, have the biggest attendance figures every Sunday in the UK.

K.

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Zach82
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quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
I would suspect the ratio to be much higher than that - if you're talking about nominal Anglicans. If about practising ones then we're about equal.

There was a thread about this a couple of years ago but concentrating on things your side of the pond. I can't remember how it went.

Roman Catholics, by some distance, have the biggest attendance figures every Sunday in the UK.

K.

The last numbers I saw showed the Catholics have only a slight lead in average Sunday attendance. Where are your numbers from?

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
...Unfortunately, the writeup you point to obscures the actual questions and scoring methodology so much that it is hard to determine what is actually meant by "a 70% confidence in the doctrine of the Trinity," for example. If you had a link to the survey questions and raw dataset, that would be interesting.

If you want a better write up and analysis, you will have to buy them (2 16-page booklets, 50p each incl. p & p):

Buy the two 16-page Guides to The Mind of Anglicans' Survey 2002

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Komensky
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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
I would suspect the ratio to be much higher than that - if you're talking about nominal Anglicans. If about practising ones then we're about equal.

There was a thread about this a couple of years ago but concentrating on things your side of the pond. I can't remember how it went.

Roman Catholics, by some distance, have the biggest attendance figures every Sunday in the UK.

K.

The last numbers I saw showed the Catholics have only a slight lead in average Sunday attendance. Where are your numbers from?
Maybe I should retract 'by some distance'.

Thanks Zach.

K.

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Zach82
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Heh, your numbers could be more credible than mine for all I know. One guess where I got mine. [Razz]

Church attendance is a hard to find number. Gallup found that 41% of Americans reported that they attend church regularly, which can only mean that a LOT of American lie about going to church!

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I humbly suggest that we've pointed out enough of that survey's glaring weaknesses by now, in more than one thread no less. So until Mark can move past simply repeating the unsubstantiated assertions, it might be best to move on.

I humbly suggest that you (not "we") have said nothing at all to persuade me that your view has any substance whatsoever. Anyway, like you say let's move on.

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SvitlanaV2
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I don't know about American statistics, but lots of research has been conducted into the churchgoing habits and beliefs of different kinds of Anglicans and other Christians in England. It seems to be a growing area of academic interest. If you don't trust one survey there's probably another on a similar theme somewhere else.

However, as someone who's simply curious, I went to the Affirming Catholics website to see who they are, and I notice that as a formal movement they've only been around since 1990, so there might not be lots of focused research on them yet. The website talks about inclusivity, exploration and diversity, which suggests that being dogmatic about theology isn't on their agenda. There is reference to those AffCaths on the 'liberal wing', but the group enjoyed the encouragement and involvement of the last ABofC, so they clearly aren't an out and out bunch of iconoclasts.

http://www.affirmingcatholicism.org.uk/pages/default.asp?sID=0

Getting back to the topic, I don't suppose the new AB is a supporter, is he?

[ 30. March 2013, 23:00: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

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Angloid
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# 159

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I don't suppose he's a signed up member. But as an orthodox Christian from an evangelical background who's pro the ordination of women as priests and bishops, and is a Benedictine oblate, I assume he is sympathetic and supportive. When he was Dean of Liverpool he hosted a (nearly said 'mini'; in a building of that size, more like 'maxi') Walsingham pilgrimage for the day, with shrine prayers, blessings, exposition of the MBS and Solemn Evensong.

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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mark Betts

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# 17074

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The Anglican Walsingham shrine isn't associated with Affirming Catholicism, it is more to do with the Flying Bishops (Ebbsfleet, Richborough and Beverley) and FiF - although all members of the Anglican Church are welcome to partake in the annual pilgrimage.

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Zach82
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# 3208

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Mark, I'm going to try reasoning with you one more time, in the charitable assumption that there is a point in trying to speak reason to you. If you are going to make the claim, you have to defend it. I don't have to defend anything.

This is not my standard. That is a standard that any respectable journalist or academic would use. In both fields, intentionally using weak sources is tantamount to lying. The many weaknesses of your source have been pointed out, and your only defense thus far has been to repeat your slander. Unless you substantiate your pathetic source, you are a liar, and you have no excuse.

I am sure our Lord does not like Anglican heresy. But I am equally sure he does not like your slander or bigotry either.

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047

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quote:
Getting back to the topic, I don't suppose the new AB is a supporter, is he?
He's the patron of the Society of Catholic Priests, which is associated with Affirming Catholicism.
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Mark Betts

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# 17074

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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Mark, I'm going to try reasoning with you one more time, in the charitable assumption that there is a point in trying to speak reason to you. If you are going to make the claim, you have to defend it. I don't have to defend anything.

This is not my standard. That is a standard that any respectable journalist or academic would use. In both fields, intentionally using weak sources is tantamount to lying. The many weaknesses of your source have been pointed out, and your only defense thus far has been to repeat your slander. Unless you substantiate your pathetic source, you are a liar, and you have no excuse.

I am sure our Lord does not like Anglican heresy. But I am equally sure he does not like your slander or bigotry either.

Zach82 you haven't pointed out any "weaknesses" of my source. Why don't you just buy the 2 guides (50p each) then you might actually have something to throw at me. Angry, but empty accusations achieve nothing.

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Doublethink.
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# 1984

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Zach82 & Mark Betts, if you are going to get into a personal argument - please do so in hell.

Doublethink
Purgatory Host

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

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Interesting, but sad, that even THIS thread isn't saying much about Welby. On the other hand, there is something to be said for a Primate who doesn't shout his mouth off continually, like his predecessor bar one.

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Emendator Liturgia
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# 17245

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[WARNING: TANGENT ALERT]

Comment has been made above on the flow of people between the Anglican and RC franchises. From my experience (limited as it is) the flow has been largely one way.

When I was in theological college in the 1980s, two of my lecturers were former RC priests (with one having the name of Francis Xavier Damien, what else could he be!)who had left their former spiritual home and become Anglicans - both were exercising their priestly ministry as well as their academic expertise.

In our Community we have three members who are former Catholics and now consider themselves to be Anglican: we have not felt the need for them to be 'received into the Anglican Church).

Over the course of my ministry I have married quite a few former Catholics who were refused marriage in their own church own to, in the main, divorce of one or both of the partners. Many of them have remained within the Anglican Church, having felt excluded, ostracized, outcast from their former home: especially when they were the ones who had been divorced).

The new ABoC could/should attempt to use the personal contact that will develop between his office and that of the Bishop of Rome, to push for opportunity to maintain people such as this within the sanctity of Holy Mother Church, and made welcome at the altar of both franchises (or indeed of other franchise as well).

[END TANGENT ALERT]

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Saul the Apostle
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# 13808

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A couple of thought about Justin Welby.

If we are shaped by adversity, losing a child in a car accident has to be pretty much a character forming experience oughtn't it? The Welby's lost a young child in a tragic car accident.

Secondly not knowing one's father almost not at all. Various journalists did some digging and found out his Dad was a Jewish bootlegger in the period of US prohibition and an alcoholic raconteur, bon viveur.

Again quite a ''shaping'' experience; or a making or breaking experience surely?

I am sure the ABC has much more about him, but these two aspects of his life sort of jumped out at me.

Family tragedy and secret family history. Not unique; but certainly worth a ponder on the new ABC.

Saul the Apostle

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Alex Cockell

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# 7487

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As a Baptist looking on from outside, I had real hopes for Justin when he locked horns with IDS over the sadistic cuts being inflicted on the poorest in the UK at the mo...

But it sounds like he might have been "got at"... and he apparently backed off.

Leaving the Baptists, Methodists and the Kirk to fight the corner again.

I hope he'll get the initial balls back and really speak truth to power - as there seems to have been a political/financial coup in this country..

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Zach82
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# 3208

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I do wonder if the Archbishop and the Pope could work out a sort of deal, wherein Roman Catholics who have joined up with the Anglicans could get a blanket dispensation to marry in Anglican Churches, assuming no other impediments.

There was a sort of deal like that before 2009 in a more generalized form, where a Roman Catholic that has "formally defected" from the Church could contract a valid marriage according to his or her own rites, assuming no other impediments. But Benedict XVI removed the clause for reasons I am not quite sure I understand.

[ 31. March 2013, 13:03: Message edited by: Zach82 ]

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967

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quote:
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
Over the course of my ministry I have married quite a few former Catholics who were refused marriage in their own church own to, in the main, divorce of one or both of the partners. Many of them have remained within the Anglican Church, having felt excluded, ostracized, outcast from their former home: especially when they were the ones who had been divorced).

The new ABoC could/should attempt to use the personal contact that will develop between his office and that of the Bishop of Rome, to push for opportunity to maintain people such as this within the sanctity of Holy Mother Church, and made welcome at the altar of both franchises (or indeed of other franchise as well).


I understand the compassion angle, but Catholics know the deal; if they disapprove of the RCC's teachings on marriage/divorce there are many other alternatives. The CofE's AffCath wing is tailor made for them, and it even has the support of the last two ABsofC! One church's loss is another church's gain. In fact, I wonder if there's a tacit understanding between Anglican and RCC leaders that this is a mutually beneficial situation? It makes sense to me that churches have differing levels of tolerance on these issues, because this means there's always somewhere else people can go if they're not happy.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
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# 3208

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I actually feel terribly sorry for Roman Catholic divorcees. As much as I love the Episcopal Church, it's not really their home. They usually aren't coming to us because they are convinced of the truth of our claims.

I would like to think I would have the fortitude to continue in the Church with a "second-rate" status, but I probably wouldn't be able to. On the other hand, I've met a lot of Catholic seminarians that don't seem to realize just what they are asking of such people when they expect them to remain in the Church.

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967

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The trouble for the RCC is that by liberalising on these issues they'd probably drive away more people than they'd attract, especially in today's increasingly post-Christian environment. The RCC is an authoritarian body with top-down rules; if this were turned upside down would it still be the RCC, or just one morechurch that tries to keep everyone happy by pursuing a broad church policy? I see the value in such churches, but I don't know if that approach would benefit the RCC at the moment.

Justin Welby is doing well on the broad church front by being both evangelical (so the papers say) and AffCath. Does he cover all bases?

[ 31. March 2013, 13:48: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

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