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» Ship of Fools   » Ship's Locker   » Limbo   » Purgatory: "There is no cerebral palsy in heaven." (Page 1)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: "There is no cerebral palsy in heaven."
Anglican_Brat
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I have cerebral palsy, a mild form that affects my speech. I once engaged in a theological debate with another person who insisted that disability is a result of brokenness and that in the Resurrection, cerebral palsy will be healed.

Now, I wasn't offended by this comment, but I'm honestly perplexed. I have had CP since I was born and I'm comfortable with my voice, even though it is the visible manifestation of the CP. I don't know what being "healed" means, because if I was given a brand new voice in heaven, then it wouldn't be me.

So, pardon me for being so biographical, but what how does the concept of the resurrection body relate to disability?

[ 18. June 2013, 13:36: Message edited by: Gwai ]

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W Hyatt
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Isn't there a difference between heaven and the Resurrection?

In any case, I would suggest that in heaven, everything about us that makes us who we are will be a result of a choice we have made. I think one of God's primary goals is to protect our sense of self, so you will be exactly the person you have decided to be.

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Knopwood
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Ahh yes, there's no faster way to start an argument in the divinity common room than to ask the queer disabled contingent if they'll still be disabled in the eschaton. As an aspie, it's so bound up in my identity that it's hard for me to imagine being "LQ-but-healed" and still myself. But I know there are families of much more severely autistic kids who find aspie nationalism quite distressing.

For that matter, I have a hard time saying that Christ was "like us in all things but sin" even though I cognitively understand it to be orthodox, because sinfulness is so bound up with my experiene of human nature (and I am uneasy with the idea of a historical "fall" and a prelapsarian period of chronos time). No easy answers, I imagine.

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The Silent Acolyte

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All I've got to add at this point is that the otherwise beautiful icons at St. Gregory Nyssen in San Francisco make me twitch when I look up at the damned spectacles on the faces of Malcolm X, Norman Perrin, Thurgood Marshall, Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, Paul Erdos, Julia Morgan, Agnes Sanford, Abraham Joshua Heschel, Paulos Mar Gregorios, W. Edwards Deming, and Desmond Mpilo Tutu, together with Samuel Joseph Isaac Schereschewski in his wheelchair.

I won't need my phreakin' eyeglasses.

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Uncle Pete

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In regard to the OP title, I'm rather counting on it.

I am comfortable with who I am. I fully expect that people who know me on earth will remember me as I am now.

But, in Heaven, baby, I'm running! I'm hearing!

In Heaven I hope to cast off my chains.

[ 12. April 2013, 04:08: Message edited by: PeteC ]

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comet

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first off, I'm probably not the best to chime in on this (but I'm gonna anyway!) in that I don't believe in "heaven" per se.

BUT - given the idea that we retain our individual selves from our lives, including the people we have become through meeting the challenge of our various disabilities, why would we hang on to the odd quirks our bodies have bestowed upon us if we're no longer in our bodies?

my MS has changed me in very good ways. on my good days, I'm actually thankful for it. But if I could not have my pain or weirdness, that would be just dynamite!

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Boogie

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I would hate to lose my ADHD - it is so much a part of me that I don't know who I'd be without it. Maybe that's because it's a neurological condition, so deeply tied up with all my reactions and responses to everything.

Yes, it's been a challenge too, but I don't think I'd be me at all without it.

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Uncle Pete

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But Boogie, in Heaven will that matter? I don't think so.

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Even more so than I was before

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M.
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Several posters seem to be saying, 'I can't imagine me without....' - I can't imagine me different, in other words.

There's a lot of things I can't imagine about heaven - isn't this just a part of not knowing everything yet?

M.

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by M.:
Several posters seem to be saying, 'I can't imagine me without....' - I can't imagine me different, in other words.

There's a lot of things I can't imagine about heaven - isn't this just a part of not knowing everything yet?

M.

It's more than that. Like LQ, I have Aspergers. Telling me that my Aspergers will be "cured" is like telling me my left-handedness will be "cured" - I don't see it as disabling, so to talk of curing it is nonsensical.
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Dormouse

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In my opinion, I don't really think that discussions like this can go anywhere useful as we really can have no idea what Heaven will be. But, if I imagine that Heaven will be a place of perfection for me, then it means I will be "right and perfect"". And if I can only be "right and perfect" by not being different then that's how it will be. I would only feel "right" with cats - but that would be a problem for those who do't like cats...
I really think that in Heaven stuff like cats, Aspergers, deafness or whatever defines you as being "you" (to yourself or to other people) will actually become irrelevant. And that we will be refined to the very being that is right and perfect.

I have no idea what Heaven will be like. I can have no idea. I joke that I will ask God some difficult questions (though I suspect the ones he asks me will be difficult enough!) and that I want to see my cat Pumpkin again. But in reality I believe that I won't be thinking about Pumpkin, or asking God why cancer and other shit existed on earth. I will be so blown away by being in the place of utmost and absolute perfection.

Edited because I don't use Preview Post and I never see the errors until it's published. It won't be like that in Heaven!

[ 12. April 2013, 08:16: Message edited by: Dormouse ]

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Adeodatus
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The risen Christ bore the wounds of crucifixion. But we speak of those wounds as "glorious".

I've suffered with on-and-off depression for years. Some of my best moments have been when I'm most depressed - I seem to be able to access levels of imagination and creativity that I can't at other times. If there's no depression in heaven, will those depths of myself be lost to me? Or, like Christ's wounds, will my depression be glorified, transfigured, resurrected?

Beethoven, on the other hand, is reputed to have said, "In heaven I will hear again." I hope he does.

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mdijon
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Isn't this like the 7 wives question?

I expect neurological categorizations regarding ableness to be an artefact of how we construct our society that will be irrelevant in heaven. Just like marriage.

I think it's reasonable for those of us attached to our identities (or our partners) to be a bit sad about that, but that must simply reflect our Earth-bound current perspective and failure to appreciate just how good we'll have it.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Marvin the Martian

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Can I truly say that I will still be "me" in Heaven if all the sinful aspects of my nature and personality are no longer present?

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Panda
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But surely the sinful aspects don't contribute to what's best about you, and it's the best of you, or perhaps the best version of you that you would want in heaven.

If I compare two sorts of days: one where things run smoothly; I don't get up anyone's nose or say the wrong thing, I'm able to be helpful and understanding and useful to those around me, I'm even able to have a good prayer-time.

Or one where I'm in a foul mood for most of it, upset everyone who comes near, say the wrong thing even trying not to, forget things I should do and feel a long way from God.

The second day, in my view, is caused my own sinfulness, and it's not a day, or a version of me, that I would care to repeat either on earth or in heaven.

So yes, I hope those sinful elements of our personality are what we're able to leave behind. Because at those rare times I manage not to sin for a while, it's so obviously better, and closer to God, that that's where I want to be all the time.

Me and St Paul. I think he had a few things to say on it as well.

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by Panda:
But surely the sinful aspects don't contribute to what's best about you

I don't know, a personality is a funny thing. Without greed would I have bothered working at my career? Without pride would I be a complete slob? Without envy of those who are better than me would I have the drive to better myself?

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Adeodatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Panda:
But surely the sinful aspects don't contribute to what's best about you

I don't know, a personality is a funny thing. Without greed would I have bothered working at my career? Without pride would I be a complete slob? Without envy of those who are better than me would I have the drive to better myself?
Red herring, I'm afraid, Marvin. It's standard classical theology that the "deadly sins" are excesses or perversions of morally good impulses: pride being an excess of proper self-regard, envy a perversion of the desire to possess the good that we perceive in others, and so on.

Most disabilities, and most of the kinds of illness we've been talking about here, are matters of physics and chemistry. There's nothing sinful about physics and chemistry.

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
There's nothing sinful about physics and chemistry.

Such was not my suggestion. But people are talking about the things that make them "them", which is to say the things that make up their personality. If it's possible for a personality to be changed - considerably, in some cases - by the removal of sin while still being identifiably the same person, then perhaps it is also possible for other aspects of a personality to be removed while still being the same person.

It's quite possible that the advantages that such things can give may be retained while the disadvantages are removed. For example, a bipolar person may keep the "highs" but never again have to suffer the "lows" (with apologies for the crass oversimplification!).

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Trudy Scrumptious

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I'm with The Silent Acolyte ... my resurrected eyes had better not be myopic. But I've never had the experience of having a "disability" that was closely tied to my identify and sense of who I am.

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nomadicgrl
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Panda:
But surely the sinful aspects don't contribute to what's best about you

I don't know, a personality is a funny thing. Without greed would I have bothered working at my career? Without pride would I be a complete slob? Without envy of those who are better than me would I have the drive to better myself?
To my mind this is where "all things being redeemed" come in. I imagine (because of course I cannot know) that in Heaven you will have the yang of the good qualities without the need or goad of the yin of the less desirable side of those qualities. C.S. Lewis describes this a bit in the novella The Great Divorce.

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The care of another,even material, bodily care is spiritual in essence. Bread for myself is a material question; bread for my neighbor is a spiritual one.- Jacques Maritain

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Arch Anglo Catholic
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The OP is a fascinating question!
I don't know the answer, and I don't know anyone on earth who does, but I trust in the Lord and know that whatever we become, it will be born out of love and truth.

His promises have been reliable so far, so I can trust Him to look after me - and you too.

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birdie

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quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
But I've never had the experience of having a "disability" that was closely tied to my identify and sense of who I am.

I suspect this is the heart of it.

My son has a medical problem which means he needs quite a bit of intervention through the day. He was blown away when he first heard the possibility that in heaven his body will function properly and he won't have to do all this unpleasant stuff his peers don't have to do.

My daughter, on the other hand, has a disability which seems to be more closely linked to who she is. It's a genetic condition - every cell in her body carries the genetic abnormality which manifests itself in several different ways. While in one sense I'd love to wake up tomorrow and find she can hear, speak and swallow, so we didn't have to faff with hearing aids, learn to sign and feed her with a tube, I also can't quite get my head around whether she'd be the same person.

Last Christmas we went to the Christmas play at my kids' school. All the children were fully involved, from the mainstream classes to the learning support units. There were kids in wheelchairs who, with help, could wave a flag at the appropriate moment, there were deaf kids signing rather than singing the songs, there were children whose support workers moved their hands for them as they couldn't do it themselves.

The atmosphere in the room was one of acceptance like I've never experienced before. Everyone belonged; everyone did just what they could do and everyone was valued, whatever they were able to do.

I came away wondering if that's what heaven would be like.

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M.
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Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by M.:
Several posters seem to be saying, 'I can't imagine me without....' - I can't imagine me different, in other words.

There's a lot of things I can't imagine about heaven - isn't this just a part of not knowing everything yet?

M.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's more than that. Like LQ, I have Aspergers. Telling me that my Aspergers will be "cured" is like telling me my left-handedness will be "cured" - I don't see it as disabling, so to talk of curing it is nonsensical.

Where did I put anything about being cured? I merely wrote that we don't know. I don't know how I can be recognisably me but completely transformed.

M.

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Freddy
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What I am hearing here would seem to lead to the conclusion that heaven must be different for everyone, with every person experiencing their own unique version of eternal happiness.

I think that in one sense we each create our own heaven, according to our own individual sense of how things should be and what is comfortable, beautiful, desirable and useful. Of course it is really God who creates it for us.

Extending this idea would suggest that one person's heaven could be another person's hell. And if we believe that there is objective reality to these subjective environments, and that they most importantly fall out on moral and spiritual lines, we have an afterlife that potentially includes every possibility.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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MSHB
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When I was diagnosed, I was told I had the Aspie strengths. Do I lose those?

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Adeodatus
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quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
When I was diagnosed, I was told I had the Aspie strengths. Do I lose those?

The person who diagnosed you is a saint.

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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busyknitter
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Why should this be a question only for "disabled" people. Surely in heaven we will become the best versions of ourselves. And for everyone that will mean change that is currently beyond our imagining. But not loss of identity.

When I think of my own son, who is severely autistic; well yes, it would be heavenly for him to keep his ability to become completely absorbed in some small sensory detail, such as a leaf or an interesting textile. I think we could all do with a bit of that.

But I sincerely hope and pray he will lose the anxiety that sometimes overwhelms him to the point of self-harming. And I'm quite looking forward to having an actual conversation with him.

[ 12. April 2013, 12:25: Message edited by: busyknitter ]

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by busyknitter:
Why should this be a question only for "disabled" people. Surely in heaven we will become the best versions of ourselves. And for everyone that will mean change that is currently beyond our imagining. But not loss of identity.

Nicely put!

I think that it needs to rest on the idea that God is good, and that things ultimately work out in a way that is right and fair. This despite much apparent evidence that this is not the case.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Zacchaeus
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Some time ago somebody who had lost a day old baby said to me ‘will she grow to be an adult in heaven.’ I could only say that I believe that in heaven everybody will be the person that God meant them to be. Now how that will manifest itself, as others have said, I don’t know.

The wife to 7 brothers question, shows that Jesus thought heaven was very different from earth and we will think in different ways then, I think we will have to wait and see what it is like and what we are like. I just know that God promises we can be with him forever – how it happens and what we will know and be like – I will have to trust to the Lord.

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Zach82
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Excuse me if this has already been mentioned, but there is a whole genre of YouTube clip of deaf people hearing for the first time as their new implants are activated.

It's always a fascinating thing to watch. Younger children seem to find the experience joyful. They go right from being perplexed at the new experience to demanding to know what everything around them is called. Adults often find the experience overwhelming and usually burst into years. For their whole lives, sound, voice, and music have been merely vague abstractions, or empty words that everyone else talked about. A whole new aspect of existence is opened to them when their implants are switched on.

I've been thinking this must be something like the resurrection, when some part of existence that we've never been able to really comprehend, or even conceive, is revealed to us. Call it eternity, who knows. It will be beyond words because it's been something beyond us our whole lives.

[ 12. April 2013, 13:13: Message edited by: Zach82 ]

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Martin60
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We lose nothing we'll miss of these caterpillar days. We gain everything.

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Love wins

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Adeodatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
We lose nothing we'll miss of these caterpillar days. We gain everything.

Caterpillar days! [Overused]

Crawl, crawl. Nibble, nibble....

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Galilit
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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
some part of existence that we've never been able to really comprehend, or even conceive, is revealed to us. Call it eternity, who knows. It will be beyond words because it's been something beyond us our whole lives.

Oh I do hope so!
I am looking forward to being "not me". Not having "people"(as it were) "look at me" and define me by my gender, race, religion, politics, etc.
I have been saying to myself for a few years "I will be floating along in the Stream of The Everything and I will be in tune with everything and not in conflict with anything"

Of course I could do that as some small invertebrate marine creature, I suppose

I told this to my hairdresser (because she asked me what I thought happened when we died).
She replied "Oh, so do you mean it won't be all lovely shops and that?"

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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
We lose nothing we'll miss of these caterpillar days. We gain everything.

Caterpillar days! [Overused]
I just can't wait 'til I pupate!

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Yorick

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I find the hopeful thinking on this thread profoundly sad.

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این نیز بگذرد

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Lucia

Looking for light
# 15201

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Why is hope sad?
Posts: 1075 | From: Nigh golden stone and spires | Registered: Oct 2009  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Notwithstanding that I think the idea of heaven is not very nice because apparently we're supposed live torturous lives on earth and then later things will be nicey nice because God loves us more up in heaven than down here on earth. But it is sort of aesthetically pleasing to have the idea of it.

How about: if the thing you have (a diagnosis or condition or whatever) is an evil or bad thing on earth, it must be left behind if you go to heaven. If the thing is partly bad, you'll be leaving the bad piece behind, and if it is part of you such that it is essential to you to have it in whole or in part, then it's good and it will come with you. Good belongs in heave and bad/evil cannot fit through the pearly gates.

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Yorick

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# 12169

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quote:
Originally posted by Lucia:
Why is hope sad?

Because there's no heaven, and the hope is false*. I find it genuinely tragic, especially when people hope for an unreal afterlife because their real lives are painful.

* IMO.

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BroJames
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# 9636

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I think you're right, Yorick. If the hope is false then it is all very sad indeed…
quote:
if Christ was not raised then neither our preaching nor [our] faith has any meaning at all. Further it would mean that we are lying in our witness for God, for we have given our solemn testimony that he did raise up Christ—and that is utterly false if it should be true that the dead do not, in fact, rise again! For if the dead do not rise neither did Christ rise, and if Christ did not rise [our] faith is futile and [our] sins have never been forgiven. Moreover those who have died believing in Christ are utterly dead and gone. Truly, if our hope in Christ were limited to this life only we should, of all [hu]mankind be the most to be pitied!

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Adeodatus
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# 4992

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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I find the hopeful thinking on this thread profoundly sad.

I think it's fair to say that at least some of the posts on this thread should be prefaced with "Allowing the possibility of heaven, then...". Mine certainly should be.

But yours is the most solid hope, Yorick: if there's no afterlife, there's definitely no cerebral palsy in it.

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Yorick

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# 12169

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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
But yours is the most solid hope, Yorick: if there's no afterlife, there's definitely no cerebral palsy in it.

No CP, no cancer, no depression, no income tax. Perfect nothingness. That's a beautiful sort of heaven! But my personal hope is not about death; it's about life.

Ditch your wishful belief in an afterlife and concentrate instead on appreciating your pre-death. See the blueness of the sky on a cloudless day, smell the delicious scent of the first rain for a month on the dusty ground, listen to a child laugh. Don't distract yourself with hopes for heaven when there's so much to enjoy now, and so little time.

Your lifetime is the briefest tiny flicker between two unimaginably vast periods of emptiness. It's all you've got, but it's infinitely precious.

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Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
Lucia

Looking for light
# 15201

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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by Lucia:
Why is hope sad?

Because there's no heaven, and the hope is false*. I find it genuinely tragic, especially when people hope for an unreal afterlife because their real lives are painful.

* IMO.

I only find such a false hope tragic if in the end someone is going to experience the profound disappointment of finding out it was false. In this case, if their hope is false they will simply experience nothing, no disappointment or anything conscious at all. Yet they will have had the benefit of that hope perhaps giving them strength during life here and now to live with the things which cannot be changed.

I don't however think the hope of a better future should in any way stop us working with all our power to make the here and now better for every one of us. To say it will all be alright in heaven after we die is no excuse to neglect what we can do now to alleviate suffering and help each other to live meaningful and fulfilled lives. The hope of future joys should not stop us from wanting joy for ourselves and others in the here and now.

And if those of us who hope turn out to be wrong...well I see no loss in having hoped.

Posts: 1075 | From: Nigh golden stone and spires | Registered: Oct 2009  |  IP: Logged
Lucia

Looking for light
# 15201

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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:

Ditch your wishful belief in an afterlife and concentrate instead on appreciating your pre-death. See the blueness of the sky on a cloudless day, smell the delicious scent of the first rain for a month on the dusty ground, listen to a child laugh. Don't distract yourself with hopes for heaven when there's so much to enjoy now, and so little time.

Your lifetime is the briefest tiny flicker between two unimaginably vast periods of emptiness. It's all you've got, but it's infinitely precious. [/QB]

I simply don't see these as an either/or proposition. A hope in the former doesn't preclude the latter.
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Zach82
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# 3208

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quote:
Ditch your wishful belief in an afterlife and concentrate instead on appreciating your pre-death. See the blueness of the sky on a cloudless day, smell the delicious scent of the first rain for a month on the dusty ground, listen to a child laugh. Don't distract yourself with hopes for heaven when there's so much to enjoy now, and so little time.

Your lifetime is the briefest tiny flicker between two unimaginably vast periods of emptiness. It's all you've got, but it's infinitely precious.

Ah, the usual call to nihilistic gluttony, with no hint of hope to those who cannot afford a life of pleasant leisure.

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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W Hyatt
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# 14250

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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Ditch your wishful belief in an afterlife and concentrate instead on appreciating your pre-death.

Personally, I find that instead of being mutually exclusive, they reinforce each other quite well.

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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.

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Yorick

Infinite Jester
# 12169

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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Ah, the usual call to nihilistic gluttony, with no hint of hope to those who cannot afford a life of pleasant leisure.

As with all the best things in life, the blue sky, the smell of rain, and the sound of kids laughing are all free. Isn't it wonderful?

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Zach82
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# 3208

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What Yorick misses altogether is his own perspective as a comfortable, educated, first world person.

For the solid majority of the human race, there is no possibility of turning away from theological hopes to a life of delight in simple pleasures, because such a life is beyond their means. At least the Roman philosophers were aware of that fact enough to say "tough shit" to the poor. Fate and all that.

The Gospel, on the other hand, is the hope of the poor.

[ 12. April 2013, 16:03: Message edited by: Zach82 ]

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
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# 3208

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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
As with all the best things in life, the blue sky, the smell of rain, and the sound of kids laughing are all free. Isn't it wonderful?

It's very easy for the rich to think a little bad poetry about the smell of rain is enough.

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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EtymologicalEvangelical
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# 15091

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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick
Ditch your wishful belief in an afterlife...

Got any evidence to support your claim that it's a "wishful belief"?

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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis

Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Yorick

Infinite Jester
# 12169

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Yup. I 'know' it's true. Apparently.

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Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged



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