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» Ship of Fools   » Ship's Locker   » Limbo   » Purgatory: "There is no cerebral palsy in heaven." (Page 2)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: "There is no cerebral palsy in heaven."
Yorick

Infinite Jester
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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
As with all the best things in life, the blue sky, the smell of rain, and the sound of kids laughing are all free. Isn't it wonderful?

It's very easy for the rich to think a little bad poetry about the smell of rain is enough.
Yeah, yeah. FYI, I've been through a tremendously bad time recently, suffering more psychological pain than I thought even possible. But whatever.

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این نیز بگذرد

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Zach82
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I am very sorry to hear that, Yorick. Everyone suffers tremendous psychological pain in their lives, but it's also the case that the poor have far fewer consolations in times of adversity.

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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Yorick

Infinite Jester
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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
...the poor have far fewer consolations in times of adversity.

I know many rich people, and I know many very poor people, and I think it's extremely ignorant of you to assume the poor necessarily suffer unhappiness more than do the rich. You would appear to have bought the Great Lie.

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این نیز بگذرد

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Zach82
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Oh get off it, will you? You're the one calling people to material consolations, Yorick, which the rich have much greater access to.

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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We have very little evidence of an afterlife, and all the evidence is testimonial and thus not subject to the sorts of evidence that can be examined. It is about faith.

I have been unpinning the afterlife ideas, heaven etc from my beliefs and following of Christianity, and find that Christianity does not not hinge on whether there is or isn't. The eternal life thing is mainly an appeal to the self's selfish desire to not be extinguished.

Pain? It's the main feature of the world and the experience of all life. The afterlife is irrelevant to the nowlife. Except if you're transitioning from one to the other.

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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Drewthealexander
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1 Cor 15, from about - oh - verse 37 on explores what a resurrection body might be like. Paul thinks about how a resurrection body might compare to an earthly one. One illustration he uses is to say that our current bodies are like a seed, compared to what the seed grows into our heavenly body. As has been said unthread - the pupaping caterpillar is apt.

All our earthly bodies are in some ways made defective by sin. Their full capacities are dimmed by age if nothing else. Whatever else they may be like, they will be fully adapted for the kind of life we will be living in heaven. I suspect that will be different from here in substance as well as quality.

But for now, I am happy to give God thanks for the body I have - with all its limitations. It isn't just a compartment to house me, it is me - in the sense that I how I sound, move, gesture, smile (and whatever else you care to imagine) is as much an expression of myself as the way I shape my thoughts.

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Knopwood
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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
All I've got to add at this point is that the otherwise beautiful icons at St. Gregory Nyssen in San Francisco make me twitch when I look up at the damned spectacles on the faces of Malcolm X, Norman Perrin, Thurgood Marshall, Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, Paul Erdos, Julia Morgan, Agnes Sanford, Abraham Joshua Heschel, Paulos Mar Gregorios, W. Edwards Deming, and Desmond Mpilo Tutu, together with Samuel Joseph Isaac Schereschewski in his wheelchair.

I won't need my phreakin' eyeglasses.

There was a wonderful morning when the rota conspired to give us three scared monsters at the altar who were all Levitically disqualified therefrom.
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Horseman Bree
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Recalling the obit of Nancy Eiesland
quote:
why did she say she hoped that when she went to heaven she would still be disabled?

The reason, which seems clear enough to many disabled people, was that her identity and character were formed by the mental, physical and societal challenges of her disability. She felt that without her disability, she would “be absolutely unknown to myself and perhaps to God.”

By the time of her death at 44 on March 10, Ms. Eiesland had come to believe that God was in fact disabled, a view she articulated in her influential 1994 book, “The Disabled God: Toward a Liberatory Theology of Disability.” She pointed to the scene described in Luke 24:36-39 in which the risen Jesus invites his disciples to touch his wounds.

“In presenting his impaired body to his startled friends, the resurrected Jesus is revealed as the disabled God,” she wrote. God remains a God the disabled can identify with, she argued — he is not cured and made whole; his injury is part of him, neither a divine punishment nor an opportunity for healing.



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It's Not That Simple

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Can I truly say that I will still be "me" in Heaven if all the sinful aspects of my nature and personality are no longer present?

Not if you truly think the sinful aspects of your nature and personality are really something worth keeping. If you do then it's unlikely you'll face that particular dilemma.
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W Hyatt
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
The afterlife is irrelevant to the nowlife. Except if you're transitioning from one to the other.

Why wait until you're transitioning? I find that each has everything to do with the other, no matter how far off in the future my death may seem to be.

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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.

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Ikkyu
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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
But yours is the most solid hope, Yorick: if there's no afterlife, there's definitely no cerebral palsy in it.

No CP, no cancer, no depression, no income tax. Perfect nothingness. That's a beautiful sort of heaven! But my personal hope is not about death; it's about life.

Ditch your wishful belief in an afterlife and concentrate instead on appreciating your pre-death. See the blueness of the sky on a cloudless day, smell the delicious scent of the first rain for a month on the dusty ground, listen to a child laugh. Don't distract yourself with hopes for heaven when there's so much to enjoy now, and so little time.

Your lifetime is the briefest tiny flicker between two unimaginably vast periods of emptiness. It's all you've got, but it's infinitely precious.

A related Haiku by Issa:
quote:


this world of dew
is just a world of dew—
and yet … and yet …


Issa
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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Excuse me if this has already been mentioned, but there is a whole genre of YouTube clip of deaf people hearing for the first time as their new implants are activated.

It's always a fascinating thing to watch.

Thanks for adding this! I've seen them too. They are amazingly emotional. I made the same connection with the joy of waking up in the afterlife.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Heavenly Anarchist
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quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Recalling the obit of Nancy Eiesland
quote:
why did she say she hoped that when she went to heaven she would still be disabled?

The reason, which seems clear enough to many disabled people, was that her identity and character were formed by the mental, physical and societal challenges of her disability. She felt that without her disability, she would “be absolutely unknown to myself and perhaps to God.”

By the time of her death at 44 on March 10, Ms. Eiesland had come to believe that God was in fact disabled, a view she articulated in her influential 1994 book, “The Disabled God: Toward a Liberatory Theology of Disability.” She pointed to the scene described in Luke 24:36-39 in which the risen Jesus invites his disciples to touch his wounds.

“In presenting his impaired body to his startled friends, the resurrected Jesus is revealed as the disabled God,” she wrote. God remains a God the disabled can identify with, she argued — he is not cured and made whole; his injury is part of him, neither a divine punishment nor an opportunity for healing.


Thank you for that, I've never heard it before and it is truly inspirational (so much so that I've bought the book).

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'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
My shop

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Belle Ringer
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quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
“In presenting his impaired body to his startled friends, the resurrected Jesus is revealed as the disabled God,” she wrote. God remains a God the disabled can identify with, she argued — he is not cured and made whole; his injury is part of him, neither a divine punishment nor an opportunity for healing.

But I don't think those woulds are still bleeding and painful and causing physical weakness in hands and body, like the wounds would in a physical-only body in this life. There's no dis-ability.

I long to ditch my glasses. And the other physical limitations. And being somewhat aspie is part of who I am, but I'd love to be not only able to think function that way but also be more outgoing at will, have a broader tools set so I can be who I am, plus more! Sound the way my voice sounds now - plus more ways if I want to.

We all go through changes without ceasing to be "me." A boy's voice changes, he doesn't cease being who he is just because he switches from soprano to bass. A person who goes blind is still the same person, why wouldn't a blind person who gains sight be the same person? Fundamentally the same person.

Anyway, I doubt heaven forces changes on anyone. Just offers more choices to explore than we have now.

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Chorister

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The one thing I'd hope to change is that I don't like crowds. And if it's true what we hear about how heaven is going to be full of other people, my present personality is going to have a huge problem! So, it will either be necessary for me to have a sociability makeover, or else there will have to be lots of hidey holes where I can meet with 2 or 3 at a time and don't have to confront the whole multitude of the heavenly host for more than the occasional short burst at a time. Still, I seem to remember that Christ himself needed to withdraw to recharge his batteries on regular occasions, so I expect there will be some sort of inbuilt heavenly chill-out zone.

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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hatless

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Yorick's right, and I think that everyone knows it. Heaven doesn't exist. Heaven is nothing more than a device, a thought experiment to enable us to talk about certain aspects of life.

That's why no one really bothers about the daft inconsistencies that arise if you start thinking too hard about heaven. The woman married to seven brothers is actually a pretty good one. Or, how can it be heaven for Sally if she's old and arthritic for eternity? But if Sally is young again, she'd still be married to that hopeless Tim, and Tom, who only met her when she was sixty five, would be forever separated from the love of his life.

Oh, it's not like that, we say. No being married, no particular age, no bodies. Hmm, probably no voices, CP or otherwise, no communication, no being present to others, no time, no finding things out, no learning, no joy of discovery, no sensations, no experience. Which is nothing.

But no one cares about all that. Instead we rightly get stuck in with using the concept. And we do wonderful things with it. We affirm, for instance, that this disability is no disability at all. We will wear glasses in heaven. Boogie will still be ADHD. Anglican Brat will still have CP. Hatless will still be only 5'7" tall (and a half, actually).

And this is absolutely about life here and now. It is how we define ourselves. What is completion, fulfilment, perfection for us? It's exciting when it turns out that it doesn't have to be about conforming to an ideal but can include our individuality, our quirks and even our damage.

And the idea that heaven might be a community thing, where we sensitively work to include everyone in the great performance, that is marvellous. And we can do it today and tomorrow.

So you're right Yorick. Only sky. But the point of heaven is to help us get things right here. It does freak me out, though, when people forget it's only a fairy tale.

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My crazy theology in novel form

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SvitlanaV2
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hatless

Ah. The voice of Western reason speaks! But isn't Christianity meant to be about putting our faith in the supposedly impossible?

Anyway, the cynic in me says that if we forget that heaven's not real, as you say, the blame lies on the shoulders of our clergy, who are strangely reluctant to preach on that topic. Our belief serves them well, but our scepticism, not so much....

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comet

Snowball in Hell
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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I am very sorry to hear that, Yorick. Everyone suffers tremendous psychological pain in their lives, but it's also the case that the poor have far fewer consolations in times of adversity.

I disagree. I definitely qualify as "poor" and yet my life is for the most part pretty full of happy things. challenges, hell yes. But I laugh a lot. I hug a lot. I blast music and dance around. my kids and I generally goof off and have a great time.

I know plenty more wealthy than me who are miserable. if nothing else, when you have all that shit you have to keep track of it all. life is kind of fun when there's nothing to keep track of.

also - when you're "winging it" - making life work with what you have, rather than buying the perfect "thing" for everything - it's harder, but there's a lovely sense of accomplishment. honestly, I'd rather my kids see that way of living than get all the stuff they want when they want it.

my lack of wealth does not keep me from being happy or having things to be proud of or feel a sense of worth. Money would give me some things, but it would take other things away.

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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions

"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin

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hatless

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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
hatless

Ah. The voice of Western reason speaks! But isn't Christianity meant to be about putting our faith in the supposedly impossible?

Anyway, the cynic in me says that if we forget that heaven's not real, as you say, the blame lies on the shoulders of our clergy, who are strangely reluctant to preach on that topic. Our belief serves them well, but our scepticism, not so much....

I think it was Western reason that probably got us into the fix in the first place, unable to live in a metaphor, insisting we have to drill down through every lovely story to find some bedrock 'facts.'

Faith in the impossible? No. In the supposedly impossible? Oh yes! We've been talking about a modern response to disability, which is to challenge what is considered normal, and to ask who has to adapt here, the person with the 'condition' or those around them? Where precisely is the disability? Is it in the legs that don't work or the space around that is designed to only work for people who can walk well? We are increasingly willing to say that people are disabled only in part by the weakness of their limbs or organs, and to a greater extent by the way we have arranged our collective life and the expectations and prejudices we allow to flourish amongst us. It turns out that you really can make the abnormal normal if you are allowed to shift normal!

Many of Jesus' healing miracles are right on the money here. He challenges prejudices and judgments as well as dealing with illness, and often seems to deal with the illness in order to make the challenge as if that was more important. As, of course, it is.

I think it really matters whether or not modern saints wear glasses in their icons. Our ideas of right and wrong for our bodies are a terrible mess at the moment. Allowing ourselves to think about what is of us and what is imposed on us, and to listen well to each other, seems such a good idea.

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My crazy theology in novel form

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Martin60
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How beautifully suited you both are.

Two sides of the same false coin.

W Hyatt [Overused]

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Love wins

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Chorister

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Hatless, I like your portrayal of heaven as being a thought device to help us in the here and now. But that is precisely the reason why you shouldn't knock it. We need all the help we can get.

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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hatless

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I'm not knocking it. I think heaven is important.

It's not such a big deal in the New Testament, and it's hard to find in the Old Testament, but it's a huge part of modern religion, in and out of the churches. And most of the time people know how the rules work and how to use heaven to talk about the world.

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My crazy theology in novel form

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by hatless:

It's not such a big deal in the New Testament, and it's hard to find in the Old Testament, but it's a huge part of modern religion, in and out of the churches. And most of the time people know how the rules work and how to use heaven to talk about the world.

There are rules? I struggle IRL to abide by normal conversational 'rules', never mind in discussion about heaven!

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Chorister

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I guess it's an understanding of how we can say 'I'm sure little Johnny is looking down from Heaven now and smiling at us', even when you know that it isn't literally like that - because they are comforting words to say. Picture imagery is an important device known from ancient times onwards.

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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hatless

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It's just rules like those we follow when talking about the weather. If you say 'it's been a funny old winter, hasn't it,' and I reply, 'yes, I suspect we're seeing a weakening of the historically strong correlation between westerly winds and the North Atlantic Oscillation,' then I've just broken the rules. [Smile]

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My crazy theology in novel form

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Martin60
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If you stop telling people it’s all sorted out after they’re dead, they might try sorting it out whilst they’re alive. Terry Pratchett

Aye, heaven can wait. It'll take care of itself.

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
hatless

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
If you stop telling people it’s all sorted out after they’re dead, they might try sorting it out whilst they’re alive. Terry Pratchett


Yes, but unless we can talk about heaven, that is about what we're aiming for, we won't know what to do to try and sort things now.

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My crazy theology in novel form

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Martin60
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# 368

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Excellent hatless. Although I completely disagree. And completely agree. We know NOTHING of heaven. Apart from our experience of it now. Nothing of Eternal Life, of the Kingdom unless we live it, live in it now.

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Love wins

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Freddy
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# 365

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quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
If you stop telling people it’s all sorted out after they’re dead, they might try sorting it out whilst they’re alive. Terry Pratchett

Yes, but unless we can talk about heaven, that is about what we're aiming for, we won't know what to do to try and sort things now.
That's my thought too. Understanding heaven is the same as understanding what makes heaven on earth.

It includes the idea that if we fail to work to make heaven on earth we will also fail to find it after death. The two are the same!

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Martin60
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It'll be given to us despite our pathetic attempts to invoke it here.

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Freddy
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# 365

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
We know NOTHING of heaven. Apart from our experience of it now.

Speak for yourself. Some Christians claim to know something about heaven:
quote:
"Church people these days know practically nothing about heaven and hell or their life after death, even though there are descriptions of everything available to them in the Word.

In fact, many who have been born in the church deny all this. In their hearts they are asking who has ever come back to tell us about it.

To prevent this negative attitude-especially prevalent among people who have acquired a great deal of worldly wisdom-from infecting and corrupting people of simple heart and simple faith, it has been granted me to be with angels and to talk with them person to person.

I have also been enabled to see what is in heaven and in hell, a process that has been going on for thirteen years.

Now I am being allowed therefore to describe what I have heard and seen, in the hopes of shedding light where there is ignorance, and of dispelling skepticism." (Emanuel Swedenborg, Heaven and Hell 1, published in London in 1758)

The thing that always interests me in this quote is the idea that Christians know "nothing about heaven and hell or their life after death, even though there are descriptions of everything available to them in the Word."

I would agree that the information is there. I also understand why people often don't see or accept this, and claim that we know nothing about life after death.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Martin60
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I speak for us ALL mate. With the possible exception of the apostle Paul, and even he didn't know.

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Love wins

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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967

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quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
If you stop telling people it’s all sorted out after they’re dead, they might try sorting it out whilst they’re alive. Terry Pratchett


Yes, but unless we can talk about heaven, that is about what we're aiming for, we won't know what to do to try and sort things now.
So we're meant to talk about heaven as if we believe in it, whilst not actually believing in it? How can you tell the difference between real belief and fake belief in heaven? Which church should one attend that ensures all its members know the difference?

Secondly, I don't see how believing in heaven is in itself an offense to disabled people, although I understand the challenge that the offer of 'perfection' presents to those of us who fear a loss of identity. We might all reflect on what that means.

Finally, I accept that some faith traditions have used the belief in heaven as a way of diverting people's attention from the fight for justice. But to state that this is the inevitable outcome of such a belief is an argument that lacks nuance. It also disregards historical examples that suggest the opposite.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
... There was a wonderful morning when the rota conspired to give us three scared monsters at the altar who were all Levitically disqualified therefrom.

How come? Did they all have crushed testicles or leprosy? Or had they had a nocturnal emission within the last 24 hours? How do you know?
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus
But yours is the most solid hope, Yorick: if there's no afterlife, there's definitely no cerebral palsy in it.

Only if that is a solid hope. If, as I believe, it isn't, then some people may be in for a nasty shock.

Besides, there must be an afterlife. Even leaving aside Jesus's own resurrection on the grounds that as Son of God he is different, if there was no survival there would be no place for Lazarus, Jairus's daughter, or the Shunammite's son to have been called back from.

I believe that we are raised as the best of all possible versions of ourselves and then more so and that we will rejoice as to how we find ourselves. What is sown corrupt is raised incorruptible.

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Martin60
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They were called back from oblivion.

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Love wins

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wheelie racer
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As a wheelchair user and someone who lives with quite significant levels of pain, I quite often get frustrated by the idea held that one day I will be cured/ healed/ fixed... Yes I would love to be without the limitations and frustrations, but there is an element of confusing wholeness with lack of impairment.

Over the past few years I have experienced tremendous healing, in that I am able to accept, live within the limits of my condition, have a meaningful and purposeful life,deal and cope with the emotional aspects of my condition and have drawn much closer to God. Maybe things will be different in heaven in terms of physical impairment and disability and maybe I will be able to dance and run, but that doesn't mean that I can't be a whole person on earth.

I often think that the glib comments about there been no disability in heaven are more to do with the warped and misguided theology of the people who make these comments and their inability to accept disabilities. As I have said so many times before, one of my biggest niggles with the evo/charismatic church and orgs like New Wine (which I do have a lot of respect for incidently) is that whilst there is a theology of healing there is no theology of disability

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by wheelie racer:

I often think that the glib comments about there been no disability in heaven are more to do with the warped and misguided theology of the people who make these comments and their inability to accept disabilities. As I have said so many times before, one of my biggest niggles with the evo/charismatic church and orgs like New Wine (which I do have a lot of respect for incidently) is that whilst there is a theology of healing there is no theology of disability

A good and useful insight, to which I would add only this one single but notable exception from a thoughtful Pentecostal theologian:

Theology of Disability

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Crazy Cat Lady
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There is some research (actually quite a lot of it) that suggests those with long term illness achieve a faster and more expansive recovery if they have a spiritual/religious identity.

So we must be a pretty positive bunch - perhaps belief in an afterlife isn't so negative after all!

I agree the term 'recovery' is a bit hard to pin down as to meaning but it's the one they use in my field of disaility - prolly cos noone has come up with a 'cure' yet!

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Truman White
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Enoch. I like your

Besides, there must be an afterlife. Even leaving aside Jesus's own resurrection on the grounds that as Son of God he is different, if there was no survival there would be no place for Lazarus, Jairus's daughter, or the Shunammite's son to have been called back from.

Nice point.

Someone asked me recently why heaven is often described in the Bible as a banquet or feast. I said it's because most people who ever lived (and too many today) live a large proportion of their life hungry. As a nicely-fed Westerner this had never occurred to him. Not believing in heaven, or any kind of afterlife, is a hell of a lot easier if you reckon this life gives you everything you want.

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Martin60
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wheelie racer - superb. Without a theology of disability, of affliction, of thorns in the flesh and mind, there is no theology of healing.

Crazy Cat Lady - it'll be correlated with strong identity not just 'spirituality' or 'religion'. Spirit and religion in their broadest senses. The sense that a person has of meaning as Viktor Frankl noted in Auschwitz.

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Love wins

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
The afterlife is irrelevant to the nowlife. Except if you're transitioning from one to the other.

Why wait until you're transitioning? I find that each has everything to do with the other, no matter how far off in the future my death may seem to be.
Because it bends your focus in a problematic direction, towards yourself, your soul and your salvation. Rather than keeping it on others and God where it belongs.

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
The afterlife is irrelevant to the nowlife. Except if you're transitioning from one to the other.

Why wait until you're transitioning? I find that each has everything to do with the other, no matter how far off in the future my death may seem to be.
Because it bends your focus in a problematic direction, towards yourself, your soul and your salvation. Rather than keeping it on others and God where it belongs.
I think that just the opposite is the case. A focus on heaven is a focus on the priority of kindness and service. It is the opposite of a focus on ourselves and our problems.

If thinking of heaven is thinking about ourselves, our souls and our salvation then this is a problem.

In practice I find that a focus on heaven is actually a focus on what really matters in life - not money or possessions, not popularity or position, not looks or physical abilities. It's about who we really are, and the qualities and relationships that will stand the test of time.

[ 13. April 2013, 18:46: Message edited by: Freddy ]

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Moo

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This morning I attended the funeral of a retired priest who was eighty-two.

People who knew him said that his faith was very deep. His only theory about what life after death would be like was that it would be what God had chosen for him, and therefore it would be good.

Moo

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See you later, alligator.

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W Hyatt
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quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
The afterlife is irrelevant to the nowlife. Except if you're transitioning from one to the other.

Why wait until you're transitioning? I find that each has everything to do with the other, no matter how far off in the future my death may seem to be.
Because it bends your focus in a problematic direction, towards yourself, your soul and your salvation. Rather than keeping it on others and God where it belongs.
I think that just the opposite is the case. A focus on heaven is a focus on the priority of kindness and service. It is the opposite of a focus on ourselves and our problems.

If thinking of heaven is thinking about ourselves, our souls and our salvation then this is a problem.

In practice I find that a focus on heaven is actually a focus on what really matters in life - not money or possessions, not popularity or position, not looks or physical abilities. It's about who we really are, and the qualities and relationships that will stand the test of time.

I'm with Freddy. I think in general, we all have to start out based on what we think is in it for ourselves and it can be hard to get past that idea of salvation, but it is possible to get to the point where we realize that heaven in the here-and-now and heaven in the life to come are both all about wanting to help other people because it's what Christ has commanded us to do, not about wanting something for ourselves.

If there is a problem, it's in the idea that heaven is only about our own individual salvation. It's fine as an idea for us to start with, but it's an idea that we're eventually supposed to replace with something bigger and more outward oriented.

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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.

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Martin60
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We're all saying the same thing. Disagreeably [Smile]

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Love wins

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Mudfrog
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I just want to hold onto what the Bible says: "Behold, I make all things new!"

I can't imagine that whatever God makes us to be in heaven that it'll be somehow less satisfying and less authentic than what we are now.

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I can't imagine that whatever God makes us to be in heaven that it'll be somehow less satisfying and less authentic than what we are now.

That's my view as well. I doubt that we will be disappointed.

However, there may be things that we currently misunderstand that will interfere with our ability to be happy in the next life.

For example, Swedenborgians have this story:
quote:
"I have heard any number of newcomers from our world complain that they did not know that their lot in life would depend on the desires of their love. They said they had not thought about them in this world, let alone about the pleasures associated with them. They had loved whatever gave them pleasure and had simply believed that our lot depended on what we thought intellectually, especially what we thought in matters of devotion and therefore of faith.

However, they were told that if they had wanted to, they might have known that an evil life is unwelcome in heaven and displeasing to God, but welcome in hell and pleasing to the devil." Emanuel Swedenborg, Divine Providence 305

It seems to me that it makes a big difference if we realize that the nature of our thoughts and desires are an important aspect of our current and future happiness.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Mudfrog
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Regardless of all that we say about heaven and all that we or popular culture or religion have to say, there are a couple of things that are very important.

1. Our 'personhood' will be very different to what we know and experience here. This is why Paul talks so much about the resurrection body - not only is it 'mortality that has put on immortality', it is also life that is only based on what we know here - the resurrection body is the 'wheat' to the natural body's 'grain'. Therefore we cannot assume just a continuation of what we are here.

2. It's a mystery. John says "It has not yet been revealed what we shall be..." (1 John 3 v 2)
This means we cannot with certainty and satisfaction describe wither the life we shall lead nor the state we shall find ourselves. If I die tonight I do not expect that my eternal life will be Newcastle with clean streets!

3. It is Christ-centred. It seems to me that so much of what passes off as heaven or eternal life is about us; we parade our desires, our needs; we demand our identity and satisfaction/reward. It is not about us; it's not about our survival and whether we will retain our 'stuff'. Heaven is only heaven because we will be "with Christ, which is far better." I would suggest that if you don't want to be with Christ, then don't bother looking to go to heaven! Heaven is not about me! It's about Jesus. I quoted 1 John 3 v 2 which continues "...we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is."

That's what heaven is - a mystery - who knows what it'll be like, but it doesn't matter because Jesus will be there and that is all we need to know. Anything else is either presumptuous speculation or selfish, worldly desire.

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:

That's what heaven is - a mystery - who knows what it'll be like, but it doesn't matter because Jesus will be there and that is all we need to know. Anything else is either presumptuous speculation or selfish, worldly desire.

[Overused]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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W Hyatt
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Anything else is either presumptuous speculation or selfish, worldly desire.

That's a rather strongly worded statement - what leads you to use those particular adjectives?

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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.

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