|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Purgatory: Bombing in Boston
|
Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
The way I'm reading it, several posters have shown up to say they don't feel too bad about people getting their limbs blown off in our city because 20-30 years ago some Irish people here raised money for people in Northern Ireland to murder other people in Northern Ireland.
Well, you'd be reading it wrong.
This Irish person would not, as they say, wish it on anyone.
I think what I do wish is that those who supported the IRA out of whatever rancorous and befuddled conviction that they were somehow setting Oul' Ireland free would come to a realisation of what their money was really buying, and be sorry for it.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
|
Posted
Zach,
In my experience, pain and logic are pretty rare companions (especially if the pain is emotional rather than physical) and just because The Troubles was 20 years ago does not mean that the pain has all vanished.
Frankly, if a city on total lock down, with all public transport suspended etc, while several 1,000 cops fail to find a single teenager is America "refusing to be terrorized", I dread to think what America being terrorized would look like. But then I remember my mother insisting we go to Harrods the day after it was bombed (and she then spent the whole day complaining that the tights would have been cheaper at John Lewis).
--------------------
"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
Oh, I am glad that we've put off the pretense of sympathy now. It's more honest and less condescending that way.
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
But then I remember my mother insisting we go to Harrods the day after it was bombed (and she then spent the whole day complaining that the tights would have been cheaper at John Lewis).
After the Danish cartoon protests, I bought Lurpak butter instead of my usual brand. I spent the next few weeks regretting my purchase, too. This solidarity lark is harder than it looks, sometimes.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
|
Posted
Zach, I do apologise if I came across as unsympathetic; that was not my intention, but my own reactions to terrorism are always going to be shaped by my childhood & later experiences in London.
In a way I envy anybody who had thought such things could not happen in their home town.
--------------------
"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
Frankly, if a city on total lock down, with all public transport suspended etc, while several 1,000 cops fail to find a single teenager is America "refusing to be terrorized", I dread to think what America being terrorized would look like. But then I remember my mother insisting we go to Harrods the day after it was bombed (and she then spent the whole day complaining that the tights would have been cheaper at John Lewis).
Of course, the UK authorities never caught those responsible for the 1983 Harrods bombing - another notable distinction.
But if police then had just been in a firefight with one or more of them, and knew them to be at large in the area, do you think a reaction like the one in Boston would have been unreasonable (or as you seem to imply, overly fearful) at the time?
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
I don't actually require any sympathy myself, though I do think it rather unseemly for people to go out of their way to explain that they aren't sympathetic, while hinting that the people of Boston might have deserved it.
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
Of course, the UK authorities never caught those responsible for the 1983 Harrods bombing - another notable distinction.
But if police then had just been in a firefight with one or more of them, and knew them to be at large in the area, do you think a reaction like the one in Boston would have been unreasonable (or as you seem to imply, overly fearful) at the time?
Probably not unreasonable, there was decided dodgy behaviour in the wake of 7/7, (cheering someone brown being kicked off a train, and of course the Brazilian-and associated cover up).
I can quite understand the cheering, the relief from a stressful situation, gratitude to the police, etc...
The flags though does seem odd (if nothing else do you keep them on hand?)
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
Frankly, if a city on total lock down, with all public transport suspended etc, while several 1,000 cops fail to find a single teenager is America "refusing to be terrorized", I dread to think what America being terrorized would look like.
One way to read the manhunt is this: if you want to shut down the lives of one million people for a day, set off a bomb and then shoot at the police. Thus encouraging similar acts.
A second way is: well, the guy shot a cop; did you expect the police not to look for him?
And the third, and in my opinion both most accurate and most relevant way: if you set off a bomb in an American city, you will be found. You will be hunted down, and the police will do all that they can not to make you into a martyr. It would have been incredibly easy to shoot the younger Tsarnaev. Instead, police spent literally two hours trying not to kill him or anyone else, then brought him to a hospital. Instead of glorious martyrdom, he'll be divulging whatever secrets he may have. Nowhere near as flashy.
Not to mention they had other bombs physically on their persons during the chase. If he hadn't been chased, he would have used them.
Posts: 424 | From: USA | Registered: May 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
|
Posted
Jay-Emm - The reaction I was referring was the quote:
city on total lock down, with all public transport suspended
which JoannaP mentioned and you edited out.
[ 21. April 2013, 19:03: Message edited by: Dave W. ]
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
quote:
The flags though does seem odd (if nothing else do you keep them on hand?)
Some people find comfort in that sort of thing.
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I do wish, ever so much, that the recent events of my dear city would not become an instance for patronizing sermons. How I do wish it!
As you're discovering your dear city is public property, and when things like this happen to it, it's fair game for anyone and everyone. My dear city - and country - was a permanent instance for all such kinds of abuse, ignorance and misguided philanthropy (see up-thread reference to IRA foreign collections) for nearly 40 years. Hopefully, you won't have to learn how to live with it as 'normal', and the 'Boston Bombings' will just be another tragic but isolated episode of what doesn't usually happen in your part of the world.
If you wish for me to be more familiar with the experience, do have the courage to say so plainly instead of putting on a cowardly show of wishing otherwise.
What the fuck are you talking about? If I wanted you to suffer (and why the hell would I - I don't even know you) I'd say it straight up, don't worry. I gave a statement about what it's like living in a terrorist zone and I say that hopefully Boston will just be a blip on the terrorist map. Sorry if there aren't enough hugs and other crap in there to make it sound more cuddly and supportive. I kept that for prayers this morning.
Can you explain to me what's your reason for thinking I don't mean what I posted?
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
Jay-Emm - The reaction I was referring was the quote:
city on total lock down, with all public transport suspended
which JoannaP mentioned and you edited out.
Sorry, bad editing on my part, the reaction wasn't total lock down but the situation was different. And there was still a tension.
(actually the underground was shut down, and buses paused)**
PS you commented on an apparent lack of sympathy, the "they didn't get him" looks a bit like your glorying in the success of murders* over here (especially given how much of the difference is due to modern technology and luck*** added with good police response). If you aren't it might indicate how judging peoples sympathy and empathy is hard over the net. If you are...
*not that there weren't loyalist murders too.
**I should point out that I'm not a Londoner, and really speaking out of my place.
[*** edit-I'm glad you were 'lucky' and that you had a successful arrest, but it could have turned out differently]
[ 21. April 2013, 19:21: Message edited by: Jay-Emm ]
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
Two responses I have heard to the Boston incident are: (1) why is everything that happens in and to America such a big deal, and (2) more inflammatory, approximately quoted, 'the USA grieves over the puddles of blood of its own people while creating oceans of blood around the world.' (I attend to news from various international sources as well as domestic.)
I deplore all violence of any kind always. However, the understanding of the reasons behind attacks such as this probably must take into account how it is that young people identify themselves with those for whom the anger might be justified. I think for example, of the Pakistani man interviewed about the USA drone attack which killed most of his own family and relatives who were simply shopping at a market. Or the wedding which was similarly attacked a couple of years ago with most of the attendees either killed or seriously wounded.
It would be understandable that surviving family members might feel justified in doing the 'eye for an eye' and randomly killing and maiming American civilians, even if we have replaced such vengeance based responses with idealistic Christian forgiveness in the comfort of our generally safe western societies.
The survivors of American violence often cannot travel to America to either confront anyone directly and often cannot identify the specific people involved beyond politicians. Might the chain of causation be that idealistic young people who do live in America might discuss acting on behalf of such victims? I think so. As randomly as they vicariously understand the violence was meted out to those with whom they identify.
-- I heard some of this discussed several years post the Sept 11 attacks, but it does not appear to have been renewed ?too soon? or it not on my radar yet. The people who attack are angry about something, often on behalf of others, and they decide to act as proxies for them. And they may actually have a point. If we fail to understand their point and change the conduct abroad with which they identify, the possibility of further incidents seems much greater.
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
Of course, the UK authorities never caught those responsible for the 1983 Harrods bombing - another notable distinction.
But if police then had just been in a firefight with one or more of them, and knew them to be at large in the area, do you think a reaction like the one in Boston would have been unreasonable (or as you seem to imply, overly fearful) at the time?
Dave,
Thank you for reminding me that the Harrods bombers were never caught - and of course in those days we never had the uncertainty over who was responsible.
That is an interesting question and my opinion (which I acknowledge may be deeply warped) is that to give the terrorists the power to disrupt that many lives, however briefly, is to let them win.
However, I am not sure how much my reaction to the lockdown is influenced by the knowledge that it was only after the lockdown was over that the man went into his garden and noticed the blood.
This NYT piece by Thomas Friedman reflects my views pretty well.
--------------------
"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
People had already mentioned Boston's contributions to the IRA, Anselmina. Forgive me for not recognizing that you weren't bringing IRA terrorism up for the same reasons others were.
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
Jay-Emm - The reaction I was referring was the quote:
city on total lock down, with all public transport suspended
which JoannaP mentioned and you edited out.
Sorry, bad editing on my part, the reaction wasn't total lock down but the situation was different. And there was still a tension.
(actually the underground was shut down, and buses paused)**
PS you commented on an apparent lack of sympathy, the "they didn't get him" looks a bit like your glorying in the success of murders* over here (especially given how much of the difference is due to modern technology and luck*** added with good police response). If you aren't it might indicate how judging peoples sympathy and empathy is hard over the net. If you are...
*not that there weren't loyalist murders too.
**I should point out that I'm not a Londoner, and really speaking out of my place.
[*** edit-I'm glad you were 'lucky' and that you had a successful arrest, but it could have turned out differently]
It's not a problem of editing, Jay-Emm, it's that we were discussing police actions, and you were talking about cheering and flags.
My only comment about sympathy was directed at Russ's post, in which he first offered it then immediately expressed his hope that some of the victims deserved their suffering.
As for my comments about the Harrods bombing, I don't accept that this quote:
the "they didn't get him" looks a bit like your glorying in the success of murders* over here
is in any sense a fair reading.
JoannaP was criticizing the Boston police reaction and comparing it to the general UK reaction following the Harrods bombing; I noted that the UK police response (at least) was unsuccessful in catching the perpetrators, though circumstances were obviously different as I noted in my next paragraph.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
There is such a thing as the fellowship of suffering. Often there are very hard lessons to be learned along the way, but I think the first requirement is to mourn with those who mourn. There's nothing trite about that.
"To taste the sea, all that is required is one gulp" (Alexandr Solzhenitsyn)
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
People had already mentioned Boston's contributions to the IRA, Anselmina. Forgive me for not recognizing that you weren't bringing IRA terrorism up for the same reasons others were.
You should have heard the reaction to 9/11. I believe the American ambassador is said to have wept at the reaction of the Question Time audience.
I don't think it is morally right. But I do think that folk not getting why it this response exists, is a clue to why these things happen in the first place.
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
[QB] quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
...stuff...
It's not a problem of editing, Jay-Emm, it's that we were discussing police actions, and you were talking about cheering and flags.
...
The first part was police action, and public (self appointed police action).
I should have left the inital quote and put a clear space before the tangent about the reaction afterwards.
quote:
As for my comments about the Harrods bombing, I don't accept that this quote:
the "they didn't get him" looks a bit like your glorying in the success of murders* over here
is in any sense a fair reading...
I'm glad to hear it, even by the time I posted it I was pretty sure it wasn't a fair reading. But that's the buttons it triggered, and it struck me as relevant that if I was reacting wrongly to you, then it's a possibility the other way (actually I regret some parts of the previous post on that basis).
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
People had already mentioned Boston's contributions to the IRA, Anselmina. Forgive me for not recognizing that you weren't bringing IRA terrorism up for the same reasons others were.
No problem. FWIW, Boston's history - whatever it is - of helping finance the IRA is, I believe, irrelevant. Innocent people butchered is what matters. It's put your city in the limelight, and sometimes that's a harsh, judgemental place to be, especially when the city is raw and hurting. What seems like a black and white case of evil vs. innocence becomes polemics and political gamesmanship. It sickens and depresses.
Here's hoping justice will be done, normality restored and broken lives put back together as best they can be.
(PS: I bought my Crocs from the Croc shop in Boston a couple of years ago ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ! That guy still sitting on his horse?)
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
People had already mentioned Boston's contributions to the IRA, Anselmina. Forgive me for not recognizing that you weren't bringing IRA terrorism up for the same reasons others were.
You should have heard the reaction to 9/11. I believe the American ambassador is said to have wept at the reaction of the Question Time audience.
I don't think it is morally right. But I do think that folk not getting why it this response exists, is a clue to why these things happen in the first place.
Trust me, I get it. I do feel, though, that if one wants to explain why we deserved it (and excuse me for saying 'we,' but that line does rely on the concept of corporate guilt), then at least don't add the condescension of false sympathy.
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
Of course, the UK authorities never caught those responsible for the 1983 Harrods bombing - another notable distinction.
But if police then had just been in a firefight with one or more of them, and knew them to be at large in the area, do you think a reaction like the one in Boston would have been unreasonable (or as you seem to imply, overly fearful) at the time?
Dave,
Thank you for reminding me that the Harrods bombers were never caught - and of course in those days we never had the uncertainty over who was responsible.
That is an interesting question and my opinion (which I acknowledge may be deeply warped) is that to give the terrorists the power to disrupt that many lives, however briefly, is to let them win.
I think that given the circumstances the lockdown was reasonable; not really different in principle to the requirement that cars pull over for police cars with flashing lights and sirens (which I assume is true in the UK also.) I think there's an element of "hot pursuit", as in this case, that can justify such temporary actions, and I don't think that spending my Friday at home rather than going to work was surrendering to terrorists any more than pulling over to let a police cruiser past is knuckling under to criminals. quote:
However, I am not sure how much my reaction to the lockdown is influenced by the knowledge that it was only after the lockdown was over that the man went into his garden and noticed the blood.
I'll admit, after about 10 hours I was wondering how they were going to call it off if they hadn't found him; I think they acted reasonably on balance, even though the search wasn't successful. quote:
This NYT piece by Thomas Friedman reflects my views pretty well.
I'm reluctant to endorse things written by the same guy who would say this, but that column doesn't seem to hold anything too objectionable.
Except the notion that we should schedule another Boston Marathon as soon as possible. As Wikipedia rightly notes:
quote:
It is always held on Patriots' Day, the third Monday of April.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
(PS: I bought my Crocs from the Croc shop in Boston a couple of years ago ! That guy still sitting on his horse?)
"That guy"? Who? You mean this guy, George Washington, the father of our country?
Yep -still there last time I looked.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
|
Posted
It's also worth noting that not having a lockdown and letting the guys kill a few hundred more people—which was a very real possibility—could be considered letting the terrorists win as well!
It's a bit post hoc when someone suggests that because he was found after the lockdown ended, the lockdown shouldn't have happened. Had there been no lockdown, and had he not been badly wounded and lying in a boat, and had he continued killing people, there would have been an outcry that there should have been a lockdown (probably not from the same people, mind you!)
It's a tough call for the Commonwealth to have made, and I haven't heard from a single person who was actually here during it who believed it was the wrong decision.
Posts: 424 | From: USA | Registered: May 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
JoannaP was criticizing the Boston police reaction and comparing it to the general UK reaction following the Harrods bombing; I noted that the UK police response (at least) was unsuccessful in catching the perpetrators, though circumstances were obviously different as I noted in my next paragraph.
I said nothing about the general UK reaction at all. I mentioned my mother as an explanation of where I was coming from, nothing more. I did not intend to suggest that she is typical but that is a very clear memory from my childhood and I am aware that it has shaped my responses to subsequent events.
--------------------
"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
|
Posted
Sorry for the mistaken inferrence, JoannaP.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
It's also worth noting that not having a lockdown and letting the guys kill a few hundred more people—which was a very real possibility—could be considered letting the terrorists win as well!
Not by me. I subscribe to the simple-minded view that the aim of terrorists is to terrorise. Deaths are a means to that end, not an end in themselves. If a populace refuses to change its values or behaviour regardless of how many of its members are killed, then the terrorists cannot win.
quote:
It's a bit post hoc when someone suggests that because he was found after the lockdown ended, the lockdown shouldn't have happened. Had there been no lockdown, and had he not been badly wounded and lying in a boat, and had he continued killing people, there would have been an outcry that there should have been a lockdown (probably not from the same people, mind you!)
I know but hindsight is irreversible.
quote:
It's a tough call for the Commonwealth to have made, and I haven't heard from a single person who was actually here during it who believed it was the wrong decision.
Good point. I am pontificating from a very long way away. I have never been to Boston (though it is high on my list of places in the US I want to visit) and, AFAIK, I do not know anybody living there apart from ship-mates.
--------------------
"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Trust me, I get it. I do feel, though, that if one wants to explain why we deserved it (and excuse me for saying 'we,' but that line does rely on the concept of corporate guilt), then at least don't add the condescension of false sympathy.
I see you have decided on your interpretation.
If I say I hope you come to understand the feelings which accompany sympathy when it involves traumatic events in one's own experience, can you understand that is not the same as wishing such traumas on you?
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
It's also worth noting that not having a lockdown and letting the guys kill a few hundred more people—which was a very real possibility—could be considered letting the terrorists win as well!
Not by me. I subscribe to the simple-minded view that the aim of terrorists is to terrorise. Deaths are a means to that end, not an end in themselves. If a populace refuses to change its values or behaviour regardless of how many of its members are killed, then the terrorists cannot win.
"Simple-minded view."
The dead people no longer have lives so they have "lost". The public is saddened and outraged and frightened -even terrorized-, the victims' friends and relatives have had their hearts torn out. But, hey, we've made the terrorists "lose". Face it: terrorists mostly "win" because they don't have the hearts to care about anonymous lives or the principles of a peaceful society. They are happy with either being destroyed. The rest of us "lose" because we care about both innocent lives and the ideals of civil rights. The closest thing to a win for us is to block as many terrorist events as we can within a legal framework.
--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
|
Posted
Lyda Rose: ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
--------------------
On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Russ
Old salt
# 120
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
[qb] The way I'm reading it, several posters have shown up to say they don't feel too bad about people getting their limbs blown off in our city because 20-30 years ago some Irish people here raised money for people in Northern Ireland to murder other people in Northern Ireland.
You're reading it wrong.
The likelihood of any such "karmic justice" seems pretty small. Chances are that for all the individuals who are suffering, this is a shocking, unexpected and entirely undeserved tragedy.
But if I believe that the concept of collective guilt is flawed, is it inconsistent to wonder about collective innocence ?
It's only natural for American media to treat this as vastly more important, more evil, than similar atrocities in Forn Parts. British or French or Irish media would be no better.
But do you not see what message that sends to the rest of the world about the relative importance of American lives lost versus non-American lives lost as a result of American action ?
Seems to me that nobody here wants this sort of ghastly thing to happen. But if and when it does, it's not wrong to wish that there were some justice in it. Or to wish that something good might come from it (such as a change in US culture so that sponsoring terrorism abroad will never be acceptable again).
Best wishes,
Russ
--------------------
Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
People had already mentioned Boston's contributions to the IRA, Anselmina. Forgive me for not recognizing that you weren't bringing IRA terrorism up for the same reasons others were.
You should have heard the reaction to 9/11. I believe the American ambassador is said to have wept at the reaction of the Question Time audience.
I don't think it is morally right. But I do think that folk not getting why it this response exists, is a clue to why these things happen in the first place.
Trust me, I get it.
Your reaction suggests otherwise.
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
Frankly, if a city on total lock down, with all public transport suspended etc, while several 1,000 cops fail to find a single teenager is America "refusing to be terrorized", I dread to think what America being terrorized would look like. But then I remember my mother insisting we go to Harrods the day after it was bombed (and she then spent the whole day complaining that the tights would have been cheaper at John Lewis).
Of course, the UK authorities never caught those responsible for the 1983 Harrods bombing - another notable distinction.
But if police then had just been in a firefight with one or more of them, and knew them to be at large in the area, do you think a reaction like the one in Boston would have been unreasonable (or as you seem to imply, overly fearful) at the time?
Again, here in L.A. that happens-- albeit on a much smaller scale-- all the time. Pretty much any time there is a dangerous suspect at large, they will do a similar shut down of the neighborhood the suspect is presumed to be hiding in. What was remarkable here was the circumstances and scale of the shut-down, not the fact that there was a shut down. I would have thought that would have been pretty much routine any time there is a dangerous suspect at large anywhere. Is that not the case?
--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:
It's a tough call for the Commonwealth to have made, and I haven't heard from a single person who was actually here during it who believed it was the wrong decision.
Good point. I am pontificating from a very long way away. I have never been to Boston (though it is high on my list of places in the US I want to visit) and, AFAIK, I do not know anybody living there apart from ship-mates.
I was not there, but I was born and grew up near there, have relatives who live in the general area (and one who was running the marathon), and I was extremely grateful that this was the decision.
At the point of shutdown, nobody knew what other explosive devices might have been planted or where. Nobody knew if there might be more than two suspects. Nobody knew if further actions might be forthcoming. It was a profoundly costly decision, but surely the most prudent one in terms of human safety.
--------------------
Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
UK wise, I think only if they are known to be spree shooting. They didn't lock down London after the failed bombing (not sure where you would put all the people to be honest). Conversely when the spree killer in Cumbria was loose, and when they were hunting Raol Moat people were advised to stay in doors.
[Crosspost]
[ 21. April 2013, 21:49: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
UK wise, I think only if they are known to be spree shooting. They didn't lock down London after the failed bombing (not sure where you would put all the people to be honest). Conversely when the spree killer in Cumbria was loose, and when they were hunting Raol Moat people were advised to stay in doors.
[Crosspost]
Geographically speaking, London covers a good deal more territory than greater Boston, and would be much harder to shut down, if what I saw of London roughly 20 years ago is anything to go by.
--------------------
Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
Yes, Derek Bird and Raoul Moat were in relatively small places.
The closest circumstance is probably the failed London bombings - just because it was the closest to hot pursuit. They closed off a couple of streets once they had got an active siege situation - but they tailed then killed the guy they thought was in a suicide vest, they didn't alert the public. As it turns out, it was the wrong man.
But the tactics had been decided on some time before - including the operation Kratos shoot to kill policy. Which I believe is ongoing under a different name.
[And of course you should remember that our society is one of the most heavily surveillance recorded in the world, and I think I am right in saying London has one of the highest numbers of CCTV cameras of any city in the world. London's councils operate 7431 of these 'public' cameras, whilst the Met is thought to have 200,000.]
[ 21. April 2013, 22:06: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
[qb] The way I'm reading it, several posters have shown up to say they don't feel too bad about people getting their limbs blown off in our city because 20-30 years ago some Irish people here raised money for people in Northern Ireland to murder other people in Northern Ireland.
You're reading it wrong.
The likelihood of any such "karmic justice" seems pretty small. Chances are that for all the individuals who are suffering, this is a shocking, unexpected and entirely undeserved tragedy.
But if I believe that the concept of collective guilt is flawed, is it inconsistent to wonder about collective innocence ?
It's only natural for American media to treat this as vastly more important, more evil, than similar atrocities in Forn Parts. British or French or Irish media would be no better.
But do you not see what message that sends to the rest of the world about the relative importance of American lives lost versus non-American lives lost as a result of American action ?
Well if it's only natural and other countries' media would be no better, perhaps the message will be that Americans respond pretty much like anybody else? And if that's the case, it's rather futile for you to expect anything more high-minded, isn't it? quote:
Seems to me that nobody here wants this sort of ghastly thing to happen. But if and when it does, it's not wrong to wish that there were some justice in it.
Where's the justice in people's legs getting ripped off? What kind of punishment system do they have where you come from, Russ? I mean, I think you'd have to hope that one of the actual IRA bombers was there at the finish line, wouldn't you? Or would a $100 dollar donation be enough to justify it, do you think? quote:
Or to wish that something good might come from it (such as a change in US culture so that sponsoring terrorism abroad will never be acceptable again).
I think it's a mistake to take the response of a small part of pissed-off minority and identify it as a feature of a broad culture, but then there's a lot of that going around these days.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
I mean, I think you'd have to hope that one of the actual IRA bombers was there at the finish line, wouldn't you? Or would a $100 dollar donation be enough to justify it, do you think?
Without wishing to condone any kind of theory of karmic retribution, I will say that if you knowingly support terrorists, you have just as much blood on your hands as the person who planted the bomb.
I'm sure there were some people under the impression that NORAID was the peaceful political advocacy organization that it claimed to be, but people singing "boys of the old brigade" in bars and putting cash in the tin for the cause are as guilty as Martin McGuinness.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
People had already mentioned Boston's contributions to the IRA, Anselmina. Forgive me for not recognizing that you weren't bringing IRA terrorism up for the same reasons others were.
You should have heard the reaction to 9/11. I believe the American ambassador is said to have wept at the reaction of the Question Time audience.
I don't think it is morally right. But I do think that folk not getting why it this response exists, is a clue to why these things happen in the first place.
Trust me, I get it.
Your reaction suggests otherwise.
I can't understand the sentiment and think it's repulsive at the same time?
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
I mean, I think you'd have to hope that one of the actual IRA bombers was there at the finish line, wouldn't you? Or would a $100 dollar donation be enough to justify it, do you think?
Without wishing to condone any kind of theory of karmic retribution, I will say that if you knowingly support terrorists, you have just as much blood on your hands as the person who planted the bomb.
I'm sure there were some people under the impression that NORAID was the peaceful political advocacy organization that it claimed to be, but people singing "boys of the old brigade" in bars and putting cash in the tin for the cause are as guilty as Martin McGuinness.
I don't think I agree that all members of a criminal enterprise are equally guilty of the worst crimes of the organization. Even US military tribunals for all their faults make some distinctions; "providing material support" (equivalent to putting cash in the tin) won't get you the death penalty (nor a sentence to have your legs blown off with a bomb, which appears to be Russ's notion of justice.)
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
quote:
I see you have decided on your interpretation.
If I say I hope you come to understand the feelings which accompany sympathy when it involves traumatic events in one's own experience, can you understand that is not the same as wishing such traumas on you?
I really don't care if you feel sympathy or not. It's only natural to feel disasters on the other side of the planet less keenly. But I do think people who would say things like "Haw, they deserved it!" out loud within a week of a tragedy are probably pretty vicious people.
[ 22. April 2013, 00:24: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
|
Posted
Aaaand this thread proves to me the value of Ship of Fools. No, really.
Before SoF I would have had little idea that a drink named "Irish Car Bomb" would be offensive to some people. I was a kid in the 1970's growing up far away from The Troubles, and with no stake in that conflict. I did not grow up in an atmosphere of terror.
Growing up in a different media age, I think there would be a widespread expectation that a drink called a "9/11" would be offensive. This is not to assign different values of importance to the sufferings experienced... just to say that media have changed, and new conversations - such as this one via SoF - have become possible.
The best one could say at this time is that the people of Boston have joined the people of London, Baghdad, etc. in the membership of a sorrowful, undesired club.
The worst one could say is that they somehow deserved it. Misplaced bitterness only engenders more misplaced bitterness.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
But then I remember my mother insisting we go to Harrods the day after it was bombed (and she then spent the whole day complaining that the tights would have been cheaper at John Lewis).
After the Danish cartoon protests, I bought Lurpak butter instead of my usual brand. I spent the next few weeks regretting my purchase, too. This solidarity lark is harder than it looks, sometimes.
Absolutely.
I was determined to buy a coffee at a shop that was terrorised by "anti-Zionists" for some alleged connection with Israel, but I took ages to find the place, and then my coffee was small, ordinary and expensive.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
ISTM my comments on the "Major Bomb Attacks" thread apply.
Do you understand the difference between governments and everyday people just living their lives???
Yes, the US gov't and military do all sorts of unwise, stupid, awful, and evil things. (Including killing innocent civilians, both here and abroad.) I think most Americans have some sense of that. Strangely enough, lots of Americans try to change policies, stop the bad things, and try to bring light and justice to things that have already happened.
Newsflash: governments tend not to listen to their people, even in a democratic republic. They often don't even listen to other members of the gov't. As someone once said, "Democracy is the worst political system--except for all the others".
I'm not one of those people who, when 9/11 happened, cried "Why do they hate us?", as did one woman in the news. I know lots of people, both around the world and here, have great reason to hate the US gov't and military. Slavery; attempted genocide against Native Americans; messing around in the internal affairs of other countries (do a search on "United Fruit" and "Smedley Butler"); Dubya very publicly acting out his father issues by going after Sadaam Hussein (among other things); Abu Gharaib, Gitmo, extraordinary rendition...and those are just off the top of my head.
Anyone brave enough to talk about various countries' legacies of empire and colonialism? When 7/7 happened, did any shipmate pipe up and say, "well, the Brits had it coming"? Feeling/thinking that is one thing. But proclaiming it so soon after something happened???
Heck, the last time an American space shuttle blew up, some shipmates wondered why we were upset.
Americans are NOT more important than everyone else in the world--but we're not LESS important either. And when we've been hurt, OF COURSE we're going to grieve, storm, and tend to wounds--just as any one of you would do if someone attacked your country...or your loved ones.
Think about what you're saying. Would you tell the extended family of a recently-deceased person that it's a good thing this person is dead, because the head of the family (an old *&^%$@) was a monster?
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
People had already mentioned Boston's contributions to the IRA, Anselmina. Forgive me for not recognizing that you weren't bringing IRA terrorism up for the same reasons others were.
You should have heard the reaction to 9/11. I believe the American ambassador is said to have wept at the reaction of the Question Time audience.
I don't think it is morally right. But I do think that folk not getting why it this response exists, is a clue to why these things happen in the first place.
Trust me, I get it.
Your reaction suggests otherwise.
I can't understand the sentiment and think it's repulsive at the same time?
You appear to be misidentifying the sentiment as either schadenfreude or revenge.
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Catrine
Shipmate
# 9811
|
Posted
I know I raised issues about the drink names in Boston, but regardless of your consumption habits, the events in Boston were not deserved.
Much of the support financially for the IRA and others came from propaganda. People were told a story, it was not the reality of what it is like to deal with the aftermath of a bomb or shooting. But it was propaganda, and I have no doubt it was persuasive. After 9/11, it was very difficult for those fundraising to keep up the pretense behind that propaganda, and this brought about a welcome shift in attitudes (but this end also did not justify the means, 9/11 was also a horrible tragedy, and my sympathies to those who were caught up in it).
Regardless of anyone's opinions, beliefs or their drinking choices, this attack was not justified by any means, neither did anyone "deserve it". My sympathies to those in Boston, it's just horrible, under no circumstances would I wish that on anyone. I hope they get the support they need in the coming months and years (emphasis on the years).
Posts: 2614 | From: Midlands | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Russ
Old salt
# 120
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
"providing material support" (equivalent to putting cash in the tin) won't get you the death penalty (nor a sentence to have your legs blown off with a bomb, which appears to be Russ's notion of justice.)
When I lived in St Albans, there was a would-be bomber who blew himself up with his own bomb. Fortunately nobody else was hurt. There was no great public expression of grief at his passing.
It does indeed seem to me that there is a certain aptness, that one who intends to kill and maim others by means of explosives should be themselves blown up. If "karmic justice" isn't the right term, perhaps you could suggest a better one ?
I'm a little surprised that I can write something that says "justice is too much to hope for this side of the grave" and it's read as saying ""they deserved it". But maybe some people can't cope with responses that aren't as simple and unmixed as "fer it" or "agin it".
Do you want to see a world without terrorism ? Wouldn't it be a big step in that direction if the world's only superpower publicly committed itself to never again support terrorism in any form ? Wouldn't that be a good outcome, the best use to which the wave of public emotion about this recent crime might be directed ?
Best wishes,
Russ
--------------------
Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
That has been one of the historical arguments in Irish republicanism, which you could parody as 'you started it'. Thus, the physical force wing has always argued, that, confronted with an armed invading power, it is legitimate to oppose with arms. I suppose that is accepted to some extent within just war theory.
However, it's a different kettle of fish to argue that in 1916, and 1969. In other words, Michael Collins used that argument (approximately), but that doesn't mean that the Provos were also correct to use it.
Nobody deserves to be blown up, in any case. And I can't really see how Chechnya connects with the US?
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
