Posted                       

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Originally posted by Russ:
It does indeed seem to me that there is a certain aptness, that one who intends to kill and maim others by means of explosives should be themselves blown up. If "karmic justice" isn't the right term, perhaps you could suggest a better one ?

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Yes, Derek Bird and Raoul Moat were in relatively small places.

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Originally posted by Dave W.:

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Originally posted by Anselmina:
(PS: I bought my Crocs from the Croc shop in Boston a couple of years ago ! That guy still sitting on his horse?)

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"That guy"? Who? You mean this guy, George Washington, the father of our country?

Yep -still there last time I looked.

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Originally posted by Russ:
I'm a little surprised that I can write something that says "justice is too much to hope for this side of the grave" and it's read as saying ""they deserved it". But maybe some people can't cope with responses that aren't as simple and unmixed as "fer it" or "agin it".

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And I know it's way too much to hope for that any of those who've been hurt in the current evil are those who put some money in the box for the old country 20 or 30 years ago. Boston is a big city.

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Do you want to see a world without terrorism ? Wouldn't it be a big step in that direction if the world's only superpower publicly committed itself to never again support terrorism in any form ? Wouldn't that be a good outcome, the best use to which the wave of public emotion about this recent crime might be directed ?

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pre-9/11 the US government was cool about private citizens sponsoring terrorism overseas.

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Originally posted by Russ:
The criminal investigation will throw up some answers as to the specifics of this case. But if you want to know - need to know - how people can do such things, you don't have to look very far from home.

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Originally posted by Doublethink:
You appear to be misidentifying the sentiment as either schadenfreude or revenge.

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Originally posted by Bostonman:
Meanwhile, "how people can do such things"...I haven't heard of anyone close to home knowing what it's like to set down a bomb in a crowd in cold blood, look someone in the eye, and walk away without flinching when it explodes.

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But then the ANC, the Iraqui insurgency, the Provos - do these fit? I don't know.

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Posted                          

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Originally posted by Russ:
It does indeed seem to me that there is a certain aptness, that one who intends to kill and maim others by means of explosives should be themselves blown up. If "karmic justice" isn't the right term, perhaps you could suggest a better one ?

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yes, it's a nightmare separating out resistance movements, insurgencies, guerilla groups, terrorists, and so on.

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Originally posted by Dave W.:

quote:

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And I know it's way too much to hope for that any of those who've been hurt in the current evil are those who put some money in the box for the old country 20 or 30 years ago. Boston is a big city.

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Again I ask - what kind of justice system includes the punishment of having your legs blown off?

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Originally posted by Stetson:
Quetzcoatl wrote:

quote:

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But then the ANC, the Iraqui insurgency, the Provos - do these fit? I don't know.

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I think one of the modern critera(not part of the old Just War theory) is "Are you fighting against a dictatorship or a democracy?" The logic being that resort to war is valid only if you have no recourse at the ballot box. Therefore, ANC good, IRA bad.

But even that kind of falls apart when a democratic country invades a sovereign country, as in the US/Iraq. Since the people in the targeted country did not get a vote on the matter.

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Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

Tangent sort of - Have there been any stories of people repenting of having financed Irish bombings? Like, after 9-11?

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yes, that is like Ireland, I mean the 1916 uprising. I think the British eventually conceded the legitimacy of the Irish war, since they negotiated with Michael Collins, who had just had some of their intelligence officers shot in their beds.

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:

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Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

Tangent sort of - Have there been any stories of people repenting of having financed Irish bombings? Like, after 9-11?

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As a result of 9-11? Sincerely doubt it. Not how it works.

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Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yes, that is like Ireland, I mean the 1916 uprising. I think the British eventually conceded the legitimacy of the Irish war, since they negotiated with Michael Collins, who had just had some of their intelligence officers shot in their beds.

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I'm not sure this follows: after all, I'm pretty sure the British don't "concede the legitimacy" of the Provisionals' campaign, and yet Martin McGuinness is now the Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland...

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Originally posted by Bostonman:
Someone who puts money in a tin is not as responsible as someone who builds or detonates a bomb

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Originally posted by Zach82:
march over to my computer and brag about it on the ship.

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Originally posted by Firenze:

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Originally posted by Zach82:
march over to my computer and brag about it on the ship.

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More like 'honestly admit to'. It's an unbidden, unwanted response, but, like recurrent anxiety attacks or an inability to cope with certain sorts of confrontation, it's something you have to work with and through.

No marching* or bragging involved.

*a particularly loaded term in the context of NI.

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Originally posted by Greenleaff:

I went to church Sunday-- the message was that what the city went through last week is nothing compared to what people in Baghdad endure, that marginalized people feel unsafe every day, and in that light would we please participate in an event 3 weeks from now to raise money for disaffected youth. During prayers of the people, there were many contributions but no one mentioned the 5 people who died, the families of the victims or suspects, or anything of our fear and loss we felt this week. I was close to tears for the 1st part and couldn't really speak up.... I should have.

I have to admit I found this lack of acknowlegment mystifying and I feel a little numb. Luckily my workplace is holding some events today to help people mark what's happened, and talk about how its affected our community here. I was moved by Obama's speech at the interfaith service last week. I wish my own faith community could do something to just acknowledge the loss and uncertainty. Are we really a community? we seem not to be able to grieve together. Even at work, where politics and religion are off-limits subjects, we are able to talk about how this has affected us and shaped who we are. Churches should be able to do the same thing... paying attention to the gravity of this event is not equivalent to fear-mongering. To me this does bring up questions of evil in the world and how to deal with that, and i'm certainly not bringing that up with coworkers! At least have a little empathy for those of us who feel hurt by this, even if its not as bad as Baghdad.

Last night I spent a long time praying for the victims, the suspects, their families, for healing for everyone, for help... I plan to do the same thing tonight... Seems like the right thing to do.

(Sorry for the rant.)

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Originally posted by Greenleaff:
It was a truly frightening day and I've never experienced anything like it.

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for you and yours.

I lived in Birmingham during the time of the pub bombings. I was due to go to the Tavern in the Town that night with my boyfriend - by sheer co-incidence I finished with him that lunch time, we didn't go.

The shock of 'It could have been me' took a long time to subside. We had bomb scares at school at least twice a week in those days (hoaxes, obviously - but concerning nonetheless)

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Originally posted by Greenleaff:
I'm struggling to understand how anyone in our community could do something this awful-- there is no answer that could possibly address the depth of the tragedy.

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Originally posted by Doublethink:
And you have to care, in order to hate. That usually means contact, on some level.

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Originally posted by Gwai:
I do imagine it's quite hard for many Bostonians. I saw how affected many people were by 9-11. My thoughts for all of you.

But that's the thing. People seemed to feel they'd lost their innocence or their feeling of safety, which is partially what I'm hearing from Greenleaff. I had attributed it to our western illusion of safety. But from what I'm hearing, Brits don't seem to have the same shock that violence happens. Is this because of things like the troubles or did the London subway bombing a few years ago create the same level of people feeling their whole life had changed. I kept hearing that in 2001, and I had already seen enough crap that I didn't get it then and don't really get it now.

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There's a reflexive anti-Americanism on the old British left and I think it's been surfacing on this thread.

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Originally posted by Russ:
As for what was going through the mind of the person who triggered the bombs, I've no idea. Fear ? Hate ? Exhilaration ? The nobility of martyrdom for the cause ?

But unless he's a total psycho, I bet he believes he has the support of and acts for some community who have the mistaken belief that this is an acceptable way to achieve their aims.

Yours sadly,

Russ

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Russ: As for what was going through the mind of the person who triggered the bombs, I've no idea. Fear ? Hate ? Exhilaration ? The nobility of martyrdom for the cause ?

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Originally posted by mousethief:

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Originally posted by Doublethink:
And you have to care, in order to hate. That usually means contact, on some level.

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Hmm. How does this apply to people in, say, Egypt or Syria or Pakistan, who hate Americans with a red-hot passion? There is no contact.

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

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Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

Tangent sort of - Have there been any stories of people repenting of having financed Irish bombings? Like, after 9-11?

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As a result of 9-11? Sincerely doubt it. Not how it works.

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Originally posted by Stetson:
Grammatica wrote:

quote:

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There's a reflexive anti-Americanism on the old British left and I think it's been surfacing on this thread.

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One thing I've always found somewhat odd(and I'm not specifically thinking about anyone on this thread) is when left-wing British people bring up US support for the IRA as an example of American interference in other countries.

I mean, if I were a left-wing(and hence supposedly anti-imperialist) Brit, I would try to come up with an example other than one that reminds everybody that my own country was once a major imperial power, vehemently disliked among some of its subject peoples.

Granted, the intermingling strands of nationalism and leftism can sometimes be hard to untangle, and it's likely that many of the Brits who rail on and on against the "rich Irishmen in Boston" are more the former than the latter. Still, p.r. lesson for the day: if you're a Brit looking for sympathy as a downtrodden victim of the bullying yanks, DON'T bring up Ireland!

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

quote:

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Originally posted by Gwai:
I do imagine it's quite hard for many Bostonians. I saw how affected many people were by 9-11. My thoughts for all of you.

But that's the thing. People seemed to feel they'd lost their innocence or their feeling of safety, which is partially what I'm hearing from Greenleaff. I had attributed it to our western illusion of safety. But from what I'm hearing, Brits don't seem to have the same shock that violence happens. Is this because of things like the troubles or did the London subway bombing a few years ago create the same level of people feeling their whole life had changed. I kept hearing that in 2001, and I had already seen enough crap that I didn't get it then and don't really get it now.

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I would say that a lot of Brits just got used to it. After all, 4000 people died in the Troubles, week by week over 20 years or so. OK, most of them were in Ireland, but I heard the Oxford St Wimpy bar bomb go off. And my local launderette was blown up, the police said by Iranians. The owner was blown out of the shop, and lay in the road where I live, dying.

I think 7/7 was quite a shock, but people quickly started taking the tube again, and so on.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

quote:

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Originally posted by Stetson:
Grammatica wrote:

quote:

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There's a reflexive anti-Americanism on the old British left and I think it's been surfacing on this thread.

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One thing I've always found somewhat odd(and I'm not specifically thinking about anyone on this thread) is when left-wing British people bring up US support for the IRA as an example of American interference in other countries.

I mean, if I were a left-wing(and hence supposedly anti-imperialist) Brit, I would try to come up with an example other than one that reminds everybody that my own country was once a major imperial power, vehemently disliked among some of its subject peoples.

Granted, the intermingling strands of nationalism and leftism can sometimes be hard to untangle, and it's likely that many of the Brits who rail on and on against the "rich Irishmen in Boston" are more the former than the latter. Still, p.r. lesson for the day: if you're a Brit looking for sympathy as a downtrodden victim of the bullying yanks, DON'T bring up Ireland!

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I find that argument peculiar. I would think most left-wing people in the UK would bring up Ireland, not because of the US, but because it was a colony in our backyard, and one where a classic war of independence went on.

Thus, the left don't ignore the imperial history, far from it. Its historical aftermath still of course goes on, see for example the recent court cases by Kenyan guerrilla fighters, who were tortured in British camps.

Of course, we may well also critique the US imperium, and those British politicians who snuggle up to it!

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Originally posted by Doublethink:
I would agree with this, it is habituation to a certain extent. But I don't think it is just about the IRA bombing campaign.

Who grew up feeling safe in the public sphere ? Really?

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Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Now that we've caught this sick boy, we've got to love him.

Wipe his feet clean with our tears and hair. Reconcile him to those he's grieved. As we grieved him.

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Originally posted by Zach82:

quote:

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Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:

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Originally posted by Zach82:
march over to my computer and brag about it on the ship.

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More like 'honestly admit to'. It's an unbidden, unwanted response, but, like recurrent anxiety attacks or an inability to cope with certain sorts of confrontation, it's something you have to work with and through.

No marching* or bragging involved.

*a particularly loaded term in the context of NI.

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Sure, but it's a bit much to expect the victims of your vicious thoughts to help you through them, especially when you don't seem to repent of them very much.

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Originally posted by Greenleaff:
Thanks for the kind responses so far. I can understand why some might find this reaction naive or dramatic. I will probably have a more detached way of talking about it in a couple of weeks, but this happened just 3 days ago. If you sail straight past the shock and pain and immediately start talking about ever-present violence in the community, or point out that these 5 deaths are nothing compared to the people who are murdered every day under more boring circumstances, you are technically correct but missing the point about how people feel. Tell me all that in 3 weeks and I won't argue, but for right now it seems callous. I didn't miss any work for this and my life is not drastically altered, but it's important to me to acknowledge these events as painful and once I've done that move ahead. There should be some space for grief.

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