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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: A right to know about a persons gender history?
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
If you were going to have sex with someone would you feel you had a right to know about their gender history? If you had asked me several years ago I would have said yes of course. These days I've changed my mind. Why the change? A combination of talking to trans people and coming to understand that concepts of sex and gender are a lot more fluid and a lot lest black and white than I once believed. I'd be interested to hear other peoples opinions on this.
[ 24. July 2013, 06:56: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html
Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
Surely one can tell, anyway?
Leaving aside my own thoughts regarding sex change operations, if withholding the truth about ones past is the only way such a person feels they can get a bit then I would suggest the problem is with them, not anyone else.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
If you were going to have sex with someone would you feel you had a right to know about their gender history?
What sort of right? Legal?
If you want to sleep with people whose history you don't know and yet you care sufficiently about their gender history, I suppose you could carry around questionnaires and ask your prospective partners to fill one out while you're undressing. It might risk killing the moment but that is surely worth the reassurance.
...
Seriously, I'd say that the moral principles are the same as for any aspect of a partner's past history that they think the other partner might consider significant to the relationship.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
If you were going to have sex with someone would you feel you had a right to know about their gender history?
Just sex? Not really.
Marriage? Yes, I'd say so. If only so that issues around the ability to have children are fully understood by both parties. Of course, that would apply to anything else that might affect fertility as well so isn't unique to gender history.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
I can't imagine myself being in a position such that I was going to have sex with someone but did not know her gender history.
I'm sure you don't mean a "right" in the legal sense, but then what DO you mean?
Posts: 424 | From: USA | Registered: May 2012
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
In the sense that I'd also want to know their surname and middle name, a great deal about their past and family life, then yes.
If you don't know those things, you're probably shagging around which isn't something I think's really on.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
Posts: 8049 | Registered: Aug 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
You'd best know a lot more than gender history if you're sharing body fluids, and playing with each other's orifices and appendages. Parallel: if you're comfortable having a restaurant meal with a stranger, not sharing names, eating from each other's plate, feeding each other half eaten spoons of partly chewed food, then I guess it wouldn't be important to you. This is about more than mere physical activity.
The basic issue is respect for the dignity of persons, and that means sex is within a context, which means the other person is actually a person for you, not merely a mechanism for gratification.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
In the sense that I'd also want to know their surname and middle name, a great deal about their past and family life, then yes.
If you don't know those things, you're probably shagging around which isn't something I think's really on.
Thurible
So, you've either done a top level security background check or you are a tart? No middle ground then?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Surely one can tell, anyway?
Surely? How?
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
So, you've either done a top level security background check or you are a tart? No middle ground then?
The middle ground is talking to them. On a number of occasions.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
Posts: 8049 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Surely one can tell, anyway?
Surely? How?
Like the deep voice and broad back. That's what I reckon anyway.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
The ability to just be able to tell, will probably depend on the individual's original physique and the age at which they transitioned. I don't think it is in any way guaranteed you'd just know.
(I have met people who have transitioned it is obvious - and those where it is not. You also risk rejecting a woman born female, on the grounds she has a deep voice and muscular physique.)
[ 10. April 2013, 15:52: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Surely one can tell, anyway?
Surely? How?
Like the deep voice and broad back. That's what I reckon anyway.
My wife is 4 inches taller and wider than me, and regularly gets addressed as Mr. Feet on the telephone. Try again.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
If you (think you) can tell anyway, why bother asking?
If you can't tell, why worry? Unless, as Marvin said, you are considering having children together.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
An absolute right? No. Something that you should generally be able to expect? I think this is a question which it is pretty much impossible to answer, because it depends very much on your own feelings about how close you need to be before you get into bed with someone. A person's gender history is (or can be) a very personal, private thing that they are emotionally vulnerable about. If you're waiting for marriage before going to bed with someone, or even waiting a few months, or waiting to be in love, you might well feel that this level of information about each other is something that needs to be shared. In the same way that you might find it weird that your spouse never mentioned that sibling who died, or that experience that changed the course of their entire life. It's that kind of level of disclosure. Or it can be. And even then, you don't have a "right" to know these things, although it is the usual course of a relationship to share personal stuff when you become emotionally close.
But for a one night stand without that kind of emotional commitment? Hell no.
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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
"Have sex with" ???
Do you mean what the younger generation call being a "friend with benefits" or are you talking about a relationship.
If the former, then for any friendship to reach that stage you should know their "gender history" - if there is one?
If a relationship then you should know - but equally whatever the situation shouldn't matter.
Since you pose the question it rather implies that you know, or think you know, the answer in any case, hm? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Or is it that you're planning on "taking a flyer with a trannie" so you can brag about it on twitter???... ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
[ 10. April 2013, 17:03: Message edited by: L'organist ]
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
If it bothers you, you can get clues this way. Not conclusive evidence BTW, but it could give a whole new meaning to hand-holding.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
In the sense that I'd also want to know their surname and middle name, a great deal about their past and family life, then yes.
If you don't know those things, you're probably shagging around which isn't something I think's really on.
Thurible
So, you've either done a top level security background check or you are a tart? No middle ground then?
I would fear for our national security if "top-level background check" and "know their full name and a good deal about their personal life"no were synonymous.
Posts: 424 | From: USA | Registered: May 2012
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
If you were going to have sex with someone would you feel you had a right to know about their gender history?
Yes, obviously. I would consider such information to be at least on par in importance with other relevant information, like that my prospective partner is already married to someone else or has a STD. Such information clearly has the potential to change my desire for having sex with them, and hence should not be hidden. In offering / agreeing to have sex with me, my prospective partner is making their relationship status, their sexual health status and indeed their gender status my business. Because these simply are overlapping spheres of human concern, and cannot be viably disentangled in practice.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
A friend had large ugly scar on her chest from heart surgery. She asked me when to tell the guy she was dating (an ex boyfriend of mine, nice guy not my type, I coached her on how to attract him). My answer was, before you get engaged but after he's in love with you. Same answer for other history you think too intimate for casual conversation.
(Yup, they married.)
If you're talking one night stands with bar pickups, that's not my game so I don't know the rules, there probably aren't any except "don't endanger the other's health."
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
"Have sex with" ???
Do you mean what the younger generation call being a "friend with benefits" or are you talking about a relationship.
It seems some of us are talking about sex within a relationship, some 'friends with benefits', and some 'strangers with benefits'. However, please someone tell me what the benefit is beyond orgasm. We do know something about the potential harm from casual sex.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
If it's relevant in terms of fertility, STIs, then yes. However in terms of the person, nothing has changed - they may have had gender reassignment surgery (it is not a sex change) but this is simply to make the outside match the 'inward' gender. They've always been that gender even if they haven't always presented as that gender. And I know many transgender individuals where it is not very obvious that they are trans, particularly transmen (FTM).
If someone has legally become the opposite gender from the one they were assigned at birth, then it is illegal for employers etc to ask to see the original gender birth certificate, passport or other ID - since that person no longer exists, legally speaking.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
That's political correctness nonsense. If a geezer's had bits chopped off and others added (a sex-change operation) then he's still a geezer even if he's been tarted up to look like a bird.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
That's political correctness nonsense. If a geezer's had bits chopped off and others added (a sex-change operation) then he's still a geezer even if he's been tarted up to look like a bird.
Gender reassignment surgery does not work like that - it's not about chopping things off but simply remoulding external tissue, with some skin grafts if necessary (usually if a penis needs to be created, as penis provides more tissue to work with than a vulva). Like I said, the internal gender never changes and all of my trans friends are unmistakeably the gender they present as. No one would know that they were assigned female at birth.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Surely one can tell, anyway?
Surely? How?
Like the deep voice and broad back. That's what I reckon anyway.
BAHAHAHAAAA. Aw. Bless.
My last girlfriend was this adorable, petite woman who is three inches shorter than my 5'4", sings soprano, and by the way, was born male.
I, on the other hand, have a 55 inch chest, sing tenor oftentimes, and am currently rocking this buzz cut, despite having a full complement of ovaries, uterus, and vagina.
In other words, you're quite incorrect.
With regards to the OP, I'm wondering exactly how you'd classify 'gender history' for those who don't fit in (that adorably quaint) concept of binary gender. Do I need to disclose that I'm a cis* butch but I've been a cis femme and even though I am female now I'm flirting with the idea of asking people to refer to me using no pronouns because the whole 'female' thing has too much baggage to be dragging around with its implied 'femme or GTFO' but I'm not male?
Or are you just talking about "if someone's had bottom surgery" because in that case do we merely define 'bottom surgery' as full genital reassignment and therefore leave out those who choose to be intersex either from birth or via reversion of procedures carried out when they were minors to make them 'normal'?
*Just realized some of y'all may not know that cisgendered (commonly shortened to cis) is the opposite of transgendered (commonly shortened to trans).
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
If you make a habit of having sex with people you don't know very well, it seems to me you are ceding your right to not be surprised.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Hm. There is a theological and philosophical approach which suggests that gender has an ontological aspect-- if one is to become intimate with another, then it would necessarily be part of that discussion.
A further consideration is that gender reassignment is a legal process in some jurisdictions; having had one's gender legally assigned might be grounds for non-disclosure.
However, I would think that courtesy and civil behaviour would require a fair bit of disclosure before intimacy, including a discussion of political and personal philosophy. I don't see how gender identity could not be part of the discussion.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
This reminds me of an ancient "Dear Abby" letter, in which a young woman complained that she always paid for and took care of the birth control, and she wanted her boyfriend to help her out, but she didn't know him well enough to talk about money with him.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
A friend had large ugly scar on her chest from heart surgery. She asked me when to tell the guy she was dating (an ex boyfriend of mine, nice guy not my type, I coached her on how to attract him). My answer was, before you get engaged but after he's in love with you. Same answer for other history you think too intimate for casual conversation.
I think if you know that you're infertile (for whatever reason, including not coming with all the original parts), you have a duty to tell anyone that you are engaging in a potentially serious relationship with. This probably isn't first date material, but I think you have an obligation to make that known early. (I think everyone should have a conversation about children early: if one partner wants them and the other is dead set against the idea, you're not compatible, and are best off disengaging before anyone gets too attached.)
Superficial things like scars I could leave to later, and I think I agree that you have the timing about right.
I think there's another aspect to the question, though. I'll take the sex out of the question, and recast it as a question of when a trans person should explain that the baby photos have the other coloured blanket to someone they are pursuing a romantic relationship with.
This is a bigger question than children - it's one of gender identity. So let's pick a trans woman for the sake of an example - a person who was born male, but identifies as female. Given that we're discussing concealing (or not) birth-assigned gender, we also have to assume that she has had all the surgery to appear female, and from context, we must be assuming that she's a heterosexual trans woman, seeking a relationship with a heterosexual man.
From the trans woman's point of view, she is a woman. Not an anything-hyphen-woman, just a woman.
From a legal point of view, as Jade points out, she is a woman. But, as we see, this view is not held by everyone in society. From AO's point of view, she is a man who has had some plastic surgery. As we're talking about relationships, the fact that she identifies as a woman isn't enough - her partner or potential partner also has to identify her as a woman. So if our trans woman gets involved with someone with AO's viewpoint, sooner or later her Y chromosome is going to come to light, and there's going to be anger and disgust and rejection, which isn't going to be much fun for anyone.
And, of course, not everyone falls into a neat XX or XY box. There are various intersex conditions, some of which involve a different chromosome combination, some of which involve people being morn with ambiguous genitalia, or with both male and female genitalia. Granted, these are unusual cases, but they happen. Sometimes, people are complicated.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
From the trans woman's point of view, she is a woman. Not an anything-hyphen-woman, just a woman. From a legal point of view, as Jade points out, she is a woman. But, as we see, this view is not held by everyone in society. From AO's point of view, she is a man who has had some plastic surgery. As we're talking about relationships, the fact that she identifies as a woman isn't enough - her partner or potential partner also has to identify her as a woman. So if our trans woman gets involved with someone with AO's viewpoint, sooner or later her Y chromosome is going to come to light, and there's going to be anger and disgust and rejection, which isn't going to be much fun for anyone.
Spot on concerning the potentially devastating consequences of mismatched opinions on this. The only thing I would see a bit differently is that a "trans woman" sees herself as a "woman", full stop. Not quite, unless that "trans woman" has also suffered profound amnesia. Life history and memories thereof usually remain. The "trans woman" has not always been a "woman" and will be aware of this. Whatever that may mean in the end I do not know. It presumably depends to a considerable degree on the individual and circumstance. But I think that this probably will impact later life at least to some degree. Hence this is additional reason why a "trans woman" should inform a potential partner: the "trans woman" typically will come with at least some baggage that a "woman" does not, and the prospective partner deserves a fair warning about that as well.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
The only thing I would see a bit differently is that a "trans woman" sees herself as a "woman", full stop. Not quite, unless that "trans woman" has also suffered profound amnesia. Life history and memories thereof usually remain. The "trans woman" has not always been a "woman" and will be aware of this.
I claim no expertise.
I know precisely two people who are trans women. One transitioned in late middle age, having lived life as a man, had children, coached rugby and so on. She doesn't pretend that she didn't live like a man, but describes a sense of cloudiness and uncertainty, which cleared when she understood that being a woman was an option.
The other is rather younger, transitioned as a young adult, and says that she has always felt female, but was "trapped" in a male body, which she has now corrected.
I have difficulty understanding thinking like that* - it's so foreign to my personal frame of reference, but I see no reason to think that they are doing anything other than describing what went on in their heads as best as they can.
* I find it easy to imagine being attracted to people of the same sex, although I am not gay. I find it impossible to imagine what having a male body but thinking I'm a woman feels like.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Interested in the use of the word "cis" as a contrast to "trans". The only time I've heard this used in chemistry.
Links: Cis - trans isomerism
Is this actually a usage?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Interested in the use of the word "cis" as a contrast to "trans". The only time I've heard this used in chemistry.
Links: Cis - trans isomerism
Is this actually a usage?
yes
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Thanks for the link. It is of recent coinage. I don't know that it has much usage in western Canada yet. Makes me wonder what other chemistry terms could be imported.
Back to the topic, the issue of casual sex is part of this topic, and without that being addressed, the 'right to know' about gender history is incomplete. I hold fully that some discussion is not only reasonable but actually required before sexual activity. And not only discussion, but some understanding between the people involved, of the nature of their relationship, and ensuring that the nature of it is shared. Reasons: risk of exploitation, risks harm to one or both parties, and the consideration that casual sex by nature is harmful psychologically.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Interested in the use of the word "cis" as a contrast to "trans". The only time I've heard this used in chemistry.
Links: Cis - trans isomerism
Is this actually a usage?
yes
It's a label that has been invented by the trans community (plus fellow travellers) to put everyone else in a box. It's not a label that has been created and owned by people to whom it applies; it's a power grab by people who want to gain control of the terms of reference by choosing my name. I'm not cis-anything: I reject anyone else's attempt to tell me that this is a box and I'm in it. Next you'll be telling me that I'm anti-choice, anti-life, heathen, god-botherer or any other term that gets forced on me from outside.
Edit: See here
[ 10. April 2013, 23:33: Message edited by: Dinghy Sailor ]
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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Posts: 2821 | Registered: Sep 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Back to the topic, the issue of casual sex is part of this topic, and without that being addressed, the 'right to know' about gender history is incomplete. I hold fully that some discussion is not only reasonable but actually required before sexual activity. And not only discussion, but some understanding between the people involved, of the nature of their relationship, and ensuring that the nature of it is shared. Reasons: risk of exploitation, risks harm to one or both parties, and the consideration that casual sex by nature is harmful psychologically.
I would posit the more casual the sex, the less important the gender history. Level of sexual activity is important. Risk of disease transmission is important. Background info? not so much.
As to the supposition that casual sex is psychologically harmful, this is contextual. It certainly has the potential in many societies. And, it does increase the spread of disease, so therefore potentially physically harmful.
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
So, you've either done a top level security background check or you are a tart? No middle ground then?
The middle ground is talking to them. On a number of occasions.
Thurible
Well, yes. However, this can happen slowly, organically such as whilst working together or at gatherings through mutual friends. In such cases, there would be some shared information, but not as much as through directly dating.
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Many, especially older generations, see sex within marriage v wonton promiscuity. Truly there is the full range of greys in between. As such, there will be a range of personal knowledge as well.
If I were to engage in a serious relationship, I would hope that my partner would trust me enough to tell me of their gender history. But require, I am not so certain.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Perhaps a better question would be, if you were not told, would you feel betrayed, or let down, or as if you were not (sufficiently) trusted?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Interested in the use of the word "cis" as a contrast to "trans". The only time I've heard this used in chemistry.
Links: Cis - trans isomerism
Is this actually a usage?
yes
It's a label that has been invented by the trans community (plus fellow travellers) to put everyone else in a box. It's not a label that has been created and owned by people to whom it applies; it's a power grab by people who want to gain control of the terms of reference by choosing my name. I'm not cis-anything: I reject anyone else's attempt to tell me that this is a box and I'm in it. Next you'll be telling me that I'm anti-choice, anti-life, heathen, god-botherer or any other term that gets forced on me from outside.
Edit: See here
Except that cis simply means 'not trans' and is about as offensive as heterosexual. The only reason cisgender people object to being described as such is because it means they're no longer recognised as being the 'default'. I am happily and openly cisgender, there is absolutely no reason for me object to that anymore than I should object to being called a brunette. I am not trans, therefore I am cis. Simple.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
We are the default. Conversely, I am a gay woman, and therefore in the minority - most people are heterosexual. Recognising that fact does not diminish my identity - I don't have to label everyone else 'notgay'.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Further Doublethink, an understanding from the Kinsey forward suggests that nothing about sexuality, gender and preference is binary: gay-not gay, trans-cis, but rather a I posted in the link about, and repeated here, perhaps there are many more variations along the continuum. Perhaps there are ortho, meta, para, ipso, meso, peri, cene, tele.
I get this along the lines of ethnicity, when as a first generation Canadian, people haven't a clue about my families first language and disparate origins, and label both as 'something', and a 'not something'. Labels about sexuality are a little more continuously experienced, so more intense.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Telesexual?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
We are the default. Conversely, I am a gay woman, and therefore in the minority - most people are heterosexual. Recognising that fact does not diminish my identity - I don't have to label everyone else 'notgay'.
Agreed. 'Cis' is fine as a term of art within the trans community or in gender journals, but it's a bit silly otherwise. Similarly, "hearing" is not in any sense part of my identity, but I might use it to refer to myself in a Deaf context. "Able-bodied" is only used by contrast to "disabled" - able-bodied people don't think of that as part of their identity either.
If you want to identify with a label, it's only really useful if that label distinguishes you, and people like you, from everyone else. A label which is shared by 99.9% of the population or more isn't useful.
I'm not a trainspotter either, but the only time I'd identify as "not a trainspotter" would be if a trainspotter society was meeting in my local pub.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
George Spigot: If you were going to have sex with someone would you feel you had a right to know about their gender history?
I feel that I would. I think that any type of relationship comes with certain expectations and assumptions, and people should be honest about them.
This is true for a long-time marriage, but not less so for casual sex. Of course, one of the first things the partners have to honest about in this case is that it is casual sex to both of them.
But this would be another thing for me. Having sex with someone who had a sex operation would be a definite Eew for me, and it isn't unreasonable to expect that this could be the case. Hiding this would seem dishonest to me.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Interested in the use of the word "cis" as a contrast to "trans". The only time I've heard this used in chemistry.
Links: Cis - trans isomerism
Is this actually a usage?
How about 'cisalpine' and 'transalpine'?
Not that I'd come across the gender usage.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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cosmic dance
Shipmate
# 14025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
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Many, especially older generations, see sex within marriage v wonton promiscuity. [/QB]
The things you can do with Chinese food!!
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"No method, no teacher, no guru..." Van Morrison.
Posts: 233 | From: godzone | Registered: Aug 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Perhaps a better question would be, if you were not told, would you feel betrayed, or let down, or as if you were not (sufficiently) trusted?
Good question to which I do not have an answer.
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
We are the default. Conversely, I am a gay woman, and therefore in the minority - most people are heterosexual. Recognising that fact does not diminish my identity - I don't have to label everyone else 'notgay'.
ISTM, the drive behind labeling the default is societies treating the non-default as inferior. When respect is equal, labels matter less.
quote:
Originally posted by cosmic dance:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
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Many, especially older generations, see sex within marriage v wonton promiscuity.
The things you can do with Chinese food!! [/QB]
Doh!
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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St Deird
Shipmate
# 7631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
That's political correctness nonsense. If a geezer's had bits chopped off and others added (a sex-change operation) then he's still a geezer even if he's been tarted up to look like a bird.
I submit the following exhibit for the jury:
Nicole Maines speech
You really want to maintain that she's a boy who's been "tarted up"? Really?
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They're not hobbies; they're a robust post-apocalyptic skill-set.
Posts: 319 | From: the other side of nowhere | Registered: Jun 2004
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
Over the years I have met transgendered people; currently a friend (formerly male) is undergoing gender reassignment. She is happy. I am happy for her. Should she meet someone with whom she wished to partner, I am very sure that she would make relevant disclosures.
I really do not understand people who assume that LGBT people are promiscuous bedhoppers. It is my experience that they are more faithful to their partner than a serially married couple.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
I really do not understand people who assume that LGBT people are promiscuous bedhoppers. It is my experience that they are more faithful to their partner than a serially married couple.
My experience indicates it is about the same. You know, normal.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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