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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Male feminism
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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See, I hate to keep harping on this, but I think my perspective on the matter has been really skewed by being raised in California. In the 70's. I am kind of used to Cafeteria Everything as a default. So while I am kind of dimly aware of these feminists camps and factions out there, I ma kind of used to taking what is helpful and leaving the rest.

With this in mind, my perception is that, with gender issues being as complex as they are-- and as relatively unplumbed as they are, because in my opinion, we have only hit the tip of the iceberg-- it is a really unproductive idea to glom on to some form of feminist "orthodoxy." We have SO much to discuss.

And the dumbest thing in the world would be to leave men out of this discussion. The human race has tried social "dominance" in so many ways, and it just doesn't work in the long run-- the way forward is convergence.

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by scuffleball:

Likewise, there is a fair degree of islamophobia; much of the support for the French hijab ban seems to have been argued from a feminist perspective.

I've seen that, too and here's the thing- most of the women I have met who wear hijab are the most passionate, loud, defiant feministas you could ever hope to meet. They have reclaimed the hijab-- rather than frowning about it, I think we should listen to why they have.

A good example of what I was talking about above-- picking a camp this early in the game will only deprive us of much needed insight.

(For the record, I know I am probably preaching to the choir, just got all soap-boxy.)

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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But you look so adorable on your soapbox, Kelly.

On a serious note: the hijab and bikini are neither good nor bad in and of themselves. They acquire value based upon the reason they are worn. Both have roots in cultural oppression, but this need not define the flower completely.

[ 01. September 2013, 17:52: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
But you look so adorable on your soapbox, Kelly.


Yeah, I know, and I'm beautiful when I am angry, too, right? [Biased]

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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QLib

Bad Example
# 43

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quote:
Originally posted by scuffleball:
It was interesting to hear the Greenbelt talk about rape describe feminism as a broad church, which has typically not been my experience - the problem I have typically found with feminism is that it is a sort of doctrinal orthodoxy that you have to adopt or reject wholesale. I suppose in this respect it is not unlike certain religions - there seems to be no room for "Cafeteria Feminists."

Also a lot of feminism exists to reinforce the difference between men and women and gender binary in particular. Apart from the fact that this leads - if only subconsciously - to placing revenge over reconciliation*, it denies the experience of third-gender, genderqueer and intersex people.

Well, the speaker was right - your experience seems remarkably one-sided. You're seriously telling us you've never met a feminist who claims that gender differences are socially constructed? Wow. And as for people out for revenge - really? What form do they envisage that revenge taking? Ah, but I see you reckon it's subconscious - so how do you know it's there?

But, yes, there are some feminists who have issues with some trans-gender people. Plenty of others, though, who think it's essentially the same struggle.
quote:
Also there is racism in the feminist movement, such as when the Swedish culture minister, campaigning against female genital mutilation, thought it okay to cut a cake shaped like a stereotypical black person. Likewise, there is a fair degree of islamophobia; much of the support for the French hijab ban seems to have been argued from a feminist perspective. Indeed there seems to have been a problem with "othering" - treating misogyny as a sort of white man's burden "out there" needing to be fixed.

I don't understand what a stereotypical black person's shape is - but wouldn't it be the case that most women suffering FGM would be non-white? I don't know about your claim that feminism is specifically racist. You could argue that the whole western liberal perspective is racist - but, conversely, you can also aruge that the idea that 'they' have their culture and 'we' have ours and we shouldn't interfere is also racist. I think there are plenty of feminists who understand the case for the hijab - not least (as Kelly says above) a number of Islamic feminists.

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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by scuffleball:

Likewise, there is a fair degree of islamophobia; much of the support for the French hijab ban seems to have been argued from a feminist perspective.

I've seen that, too and here's the thing- most of the women I have met who wear hijab are the most passionate, loud, defiant feministas you could ever hope to meet. They have reclaimed the hijab-- rather than frowning about it, I think we should listen to why they have.

A good example of what I was talking about above-- picking a camp this early in the game will only deprive us of much needed insight.

(For the record, I know I am probably preaching to the choir, just got all soap-boxy.)

Soap-boxing is unavoidable herabouts, but FWIW joining camps, adopting labels and placing stakes in the ground does nothing but limit ones ability to move with the times and respond to changes. Sure, have your principles but don't expect that the acts consistent with them in year X are identical to those in year Y. Even in response to the same circumstances at different times. This has the awful consequence that you have to think before you act. What a bummer.

Sioni - who has never joined a political party and isn't about to.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492

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Bikini good, hijab not so much. Bikini is the outfit of the day in California in summertime; hijab hides identity and is inappropriate in this country. My wife used to wear a bikini but never a hijab.

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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
hijab hides identity and is inappropriate in this country.

How on earth does a hijab hide identity? Do you actually know what a hijab is?

Do you think that nuns wearing headdresses are inappropriate in your country?

Anyway, even clothing that DOES hide identity, such as a burqa... people bang on about privacy all the time.

[ 02. September 2013, 03:23: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
Bikini is the outfit of the day in California in summertime;

No, it's not. It was very hot here today, but none of the couple hundred people I saw was wearing a bikini, because bikinis are the outfits young, mostly fit, women wear at the beach, and I didn't go to the beach. I did see one woman wearing hijab, though.

quote:
Originally posted by scuffleball:
It was interesting to hear the Greenbelt talk about rape describe feminism as a broad church, which has typically not been my experience - the problem I have typically found with feminism is that it is a sort of doctrinal orthodoxy that you have to adopt or reject wholesale. I suppose in this respect it is not unlike certain religions - there seems to be no room for "Cafeteria Feminists."

Also a lot of feminism exists to reinforce the difference between men and women and gender binary in particular. Apart from the fact that this leads - if only subconsciously - to placing revenge over reconciliation*, it denies the experience of third-gender, genderqueer and intersex people.

This sounds very much like impressions of feminism gained from just being alive in the late 20th and early 21st centuries. I suggest you do some very basic reading: Wikipedia on feminist movements and ideologies and the history of feminism would make a good start.
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
hijab hides identity and is inappropriate in this country.

How on earth does a hijab hide identity? Do you actually know what a hijab is?

Do you think that nuns wearing headdresses are inappropriate in your country?

Anyway, even clothing that DOES hide identity, such as a burqa... people bang on about privacy all the time.

Yes, just echoing that. How does the hijab hide identity? Second, why shouldn't people hide? Three, see Kelly above on women who have reclaimed the hijab. Four, let a 100 flowers bloom with regard to clothing; don't start telling people what to wear.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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L'organist
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# 17338

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That all sounds fine and dandy quetzalcoatl until you reach a situation I experienced where a work colleague was delivered to the door by her (arranged) husband to ensure she didn't talk to anyone on the journey and was collected by him or her mother-in-law at the end of the day - God alone know how much extra they shelled out in fares to pursue this insanity.

In a heatwave this girl was made to wear shalwar kameez (black, navy or brown) and black hijab. One day mother-in-law got into the office to discover that Samira was not wearing the hijab in the office and started to beat her up. Eventually Security ejected the mother-in-law but Samira didn't show up for work for two days and when she came in on the third she was sporting two black eyes and numerous bruises.

Samira wasn't expressing any identity - and certainly not her own - by wearing shalwar kameez and hijab, she was wearing the clothes she was told to.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Trudy Scrumptious

BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647

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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:

Samira wasn't expressing any identity - and certainly not her own - by wearing shalwar kameez and hijab, she was wearing the clothes she was told to.

Right, but it's not the clothes that are to blame in that anecdote.

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Books and things.

I lied. There are no things. Just books.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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Funnily enough, right now I associate the name Samira with a rather bubbly enthusiastic hijab-wearing woman who just made the finale of the Australian edition of Masterchef, after being encouraged onto the show by her husband.

The plural of anecdote is not data.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
That all sounds fine and dandy quetzalcoatl until you reach a situation I experienced where a work colleague was delivered to the door by her (arranged) husband to ensure she didn't talk to anyone on the journey and was collected by him or her mother-in-law at the end of the day - God alone know how much extra they shelled out in fares to pursue this insanity.

In a heatwave this girl was made to wear shalwar kameez (black, navy or brown) and black hijab. One day mother-in-law got into the office to discover that Samira was not wearing the hijab in the office and started to beat her up. Eventually Security ejected the mother-in-law but Samira didn't show up for work for two days and when she came in on the third she was sporting two black eyes and numerous bruises.

Samira wasn't expressing any identity - and certainly not her own - by wearing shalwar kameez and hijab, she was wearing the clothes she was told to.

Perhaps you could explain how your post contradicts mine? Did you notice that bit where I said 'don't tell people what to wear'. I would have thought your anecdote is a prime example of that. No?

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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L'organist
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# 17338

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I was merely pointing out that when it is said that women wear the hijab out of choice this may not be the case - sorry if I offended and this is not your view.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I was merely pointing out that when it is said that women wear the hijab out of choice this may not be the case - sorry if I offended and this is not your view.

Not offended at all. It's just a bit weird after I said 'don't tell people what to wear', that you cite an example of a woman being told what to wear, as if this contradicts what I said!

[ 02. September 2013, 12:21: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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I think we all know it may not be the case. The point was to say that it MAY be the case.

Because the assumption in the West tends towards all Muslim women wear hijabs/niqabs/burqas/undifferentiated funny foreign clothing because they are oppressed and put upon. The assumption doesn't tend the other way.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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You also get the strange parallel between people telling Muslim women to wear the hijab, and people telling them not to, or telling them that it's 'inappropriate' in this country, whatever that means. It seems to mean absolutely zero.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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Just to add that choice of clothing is not always completely straight-forward. The wearing of a bikini or niqab may be ones choice and still be questionable if said choice is influenced the an oppressive culture.
I would go so far as to venture the thought that wearing the extreme example of either is difficult to do without bowing to said oppression. Not impossible, but neither is it easy.
Both in shedding the association and in communicating this.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

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Yes, I think clothing is often a difficult thing to analyze in terms of its influences.

For example, it seems relatively straightforward to state that the hijab is an example of patriarchal oppression of female sexuality - that it should be covered up.

But what about the covering up of women's breasts? There are obviously cultures where this does not happen, so is this also an example of patriarchal oppression?

As against that, you could argue that women also want to cover up their breasts, not to obey patriarchal diktat, but for their own privacy.

But then go back to the hijab, and some Muslim women today seem to be saying that they don't wear it to obey the patiarchs, but to make a statement about themselves. But can we ever know fully our own motivation?

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

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You could also see the same ambivalence in singers such as Lady Gaga, Madonna and Beyonce. Are they presenting debased images of female sexuality produced by a commodifying patriarchal capitalism? Or are they satirizing them, and reclaiming them, in order to produce authentic images of female sexual power? Or maybe both?

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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Cynicism/
Doing whatever it takes to make money.
/Cynicism

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

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There is that.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

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Producing 'powerful images of female sexuality' *and* making serious amounts of money at the same time ? That's a pretty heady cocktail for some I should imagine.
Not something that's going to disappear in a hurry, whether feminists , (male or female) are waving petitions about or no.

Again , maybe it's time for men to have share in the action . Although I'm not sure if a male mega-pop star simulating an orgasm on stage would be allowed would it ?

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

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.... as madonna famously did in one her many OTT stage performances.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

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I think the male orgasm is generally considered far too raunchy in most media. For example, penises are now allowed in films and TV, but generally not erect ones. And certainly not ejaculating ones! That is the preserve of porn, I think, so-called the money shot. It always intrigues me that male viewers of porn want to see another man's dick, but there you are. It's either a symbol of patriarchy, a reassurance for the inadequate, or a homoerotic love-fest, depending on your position. And maybe all of them, let's be polymorphous.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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Most blokes I know who use porn do not particularly want to see other blokes' willies. I'm not sure why the makers put them in.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Most blokes I know who use porn do not particularly want to see other blokes' willies. I'm not sure why the makers put them in.

So you can imagine that's YOUR todger doing the deed.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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QLib

Bad Example
# 43

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
... maybe it's time for men to have share in the action . Although I'm not sure if a male mega-pop star simulating an orgasm on stage would be allowed would it ?

I think you'll find that endless numbers of rock stars have done just that.

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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Most blokes I know who use porn do not particularly want to see other blokes' willies. I'm not sure why the makers put them in.

Cos they know blokes are being coy. Course they want to see the money-shot. All is well in the world of hydraulics.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Most blokes I know who use porn do not particularly want to see other blokes' willies. I'm not sure why the makers put them in.

So you can imagine that's YOUR todger doing the deed.
I suspect that's close to mark .
Which presumably is why a lot of men find the idea of 2 women 'at it' to be erotic . A fantasy divorced from reality.

The discrepancy lying at the heart of male and female sexuality is the stumbling-block between males and male-feminism IMO .
Yes we men can seek to get in touch with our feminine side, yes we can seek to understand women, (as much as is possible) . A man can show great kindness, he can show great compassion,-- still not the same as actually being feminine though.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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QLib

Bad Example
# 43

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rolyn - You seem to be confusing feminine and feminist. Plenty of feminists would question what being feminine means. Women don't have to be feminine =- not being feminine is absolutely no barrier to being a feminist.

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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
rolyn - You seem to be confusing feminine and feminist.

It looks to me like a confusion between "female" and "feminine." The former is mostly biological; the latter is entirely cultural.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But what about the covering up of women's breasts? There are obviously cultures where this does not happen, so is this also an example of patriarchal oppression?

As against that, you could argue that women also want to cover up their breasts, not to obey patriarchal diktat, but for their own privacy.

I have heard that in some cultures breasts have no erotic significance so there is no privacy issue. They are there simply to feed babies.

Moo

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See you later, alligator.

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I have heard that in some cultures breasts have no erotic significance so there is no privacy issue. They are there simply to feed babies.

And a glimpse of a breast that is in the process of feeding a baby isn't erotic, at least for most people. In another context, a similar flash of the same breast could be.

Yes, I know, rule 34.

Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Most blokes I know who use porn do not particularly want to see other blokes' willies. I'm not sure why the makers put them in.

Cos they know blokes are being coy. Course they want to see the money-shot. All is well in the world of hydraulics.
I've heard it suggested that in this day and age of DVD interactive content, you could have a sort of checklist at the beginning of a scud flick - [illustrative examples censored in the interests of decency] - to only see the stuff that fits your particular slants.

I'm sure someone's done it somewhere. Would save fast-forwarding through the stuff that doesn't work for the particular viewer.

I may have overthought this.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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I think it's a valuable contribution to the literature. My agent will be in touch shortly.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yes, I think clothing is often a difficult thing to analyze in terms of its influences.

Then there's men wearing ties. How many men actually wear ties because they want to?

I mention this because of a management book I read about 5 years ago that talked about the Abilene paradox and the author gave the example of a seminar where she(? - best of my recollection) had asked about 100 men whether they thought other people expected them to wear a tie to work. Virtually all hands went up. She then asked them to keep their hand up if they liked wearing a tie. Only about 10 hands stayed up.

She then looked at them all and said "so why are you all doing it?"

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
the author gave the example of a seminar where she(? - best of my recollection) had asked about 100 men whether they thought other people expected them to wear a tie to work. Virtually all hands went up. She then asked them to keep their hand up if they liked wearing a tie. Only about 10 hands stayed up.

She then looked at them all and said "so why are you all doing it?"

"Because we want to keep our jobs."

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

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# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
the author gave the example of a seminar where she(? - best of my recollection) had asked about 100 men whether they thought other people expected them to wear a tie to work. Virtually all hands went up. She then asked them to keep their hand up if they liked wearing a tie. Only about 10 hands stayed up.

She then looked at them all and said "so why are you all doing it?"

"Because we want to keep our jobs."
But that's the point. They all think that. They all think that everyone else is into wearing ties and they'll be in trouble if they don't wear one. Whereas the truth is that 90% of the other people around them don't like ties either and would be quite happy if people stopped wearing them.

[ 03. September 2013, 02:01: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Whereas the truth is that 90% of the other people around them don't like ties either and would be quite happy if people stopped wearing them.

It's not the people around them that matter, it's the people above them.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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These were managers. Admittedly I wouldn't know what LEVEL of managers they were, but they were managers.

[ 03. September 2013, 03:04: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
These were managers. Admittedly I wouldn't know what LEVEL of managers they were, but they were managers.

That wasn't mentioned in your original post on this subtopic.

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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

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# 13878

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Yes, I realise that. I'm not criticising you for failing to be psychic!

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Yes, I realise that. I'm not criticising you for failing to be psychic!

Oh good! I already like you better than my first wife!

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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
They all think that everyone else is into wearing ties and they'll be in trouble if they don't wear one.

I think this is a case of cultural stasis. And a method of determining one's place in the structure. Blue collar v. white collar, polyester tie vs silk. It is not like or dislike or fear. It is uniform, rank and armour. It remains so until the power of who you are greatly exceeds the power of what you do.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
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# 16840

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quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
rolyn - You seem to be confusing feminine and feminist. Plenty of feminists would question what being feminine means. Women don't have to be feminine =- not being feminine is absolutely no barrier to being a feminist.

I concede to finding 'isms' and many of the modern day issues afflicting Western cultures to be confusing.

Also I sometimes wonder if many of the attributes I associate with womankind , (kindness, compassion, tenderness etc.), isn't simply down to cultural conditioning on my part.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
They all think that everyone else is into wearing ties and they'll be in trouble if they don't wear one.

I think this is a case of cultural stasis. And a method of determining one's place in the structure. Blue collar v. white collar, polyester tie vs silk. It is not like or dislike or fear. It is uniform, rank and armour. It remains so until the power of who you are greatly exceeds the power of what you do.
Cultural stasis, definitely, because it's basically taking what was 'normal' clothing sometime in the late 19th century and preserving it in the workplace.

Of course, we do the same thing in lots of other areas. Legal language. Biblical interpretation...

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Cod
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# 2643

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Hello. My name is Cod and I like to wear a tie, mostly because menswear (apart from ties) is so fecking dowdy.

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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier

Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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There's 10% in every crowd...

But that's fine. It's exactly the same as women saying 'excuse me, I quite like wearing a hijab and no-one is forcing me'. Which is kind of why I brought it up to begin with.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged



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