Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Male feminism
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
It's an asynchronous medium. More asynchronous than I would like, but I'm briefly back. quote: Porridge: This brings us to a question: in what reliably documented, thoroughly studied, longstanding culture have women been the people wielding society-wide power, enforcing their society's cultural norms, reaping the majority of that culture's rewards, and being the generally-agreed-upon models for cultural success?
This is probably the best response of the thread to the notion that things are all copacetic now and life is groovy in Davis California, Ann Arbor Michigan, Cambridge Massachusetts, and LA LA Land and that the men there are groovy, too.
My paragraph (Men do this; Men do that) that generate much heated, beside-the-point carping may not have much traction in those precincts, but it is sadly still valid in most of the world.
Much of this thread has been occupied by more nuanced versions of the defensive, beside-the-point, hurt-feelings nonsense peddled by Mousethief and supported by quetzalcoatl and upstream from there by Horseman Bree. Nobody is telling anybody not to talk about oppression of women.
The proposition of the opening post (remember that?) was simply this: Is there such a thing as a male feminist?
My response remains a scathing No. The idea is a preposterous oxymoron and will remain so until the tide turns and parity of power between men and women is even remotely close to coming up over the horizon.
In the meantime, it is crucial for men to militate against male sexism and effectively to support women in places like Davis, Ann Arbor, and Cambridge as well as in Riyadh, rural Pakistan, the United States Senate.
It is certainly not probative to my assertion, but the number of men on this list of feminists is, laughably, minute.
Given a couple of hundred years maybe Riyadh will look like Ann Arbor, but in the meantime the male feminist is a phantastical unicorn. Mebbe I've spotted 'em in the Phantastical Desert Mirage that is Ann Arbor perhaps you have too, but they are still a rhetorical phantasy.
It is not necessary to be a woman to make this argument.
Odd that the thread recently devolves into male orgasms, ties, objectification of male bodies, and circumcision. [ 08. September 2013, 12:01: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte: The proposition of the opening post (remember that?) was simply this: Is there such a thing as a male feminist?
My response remains a scathing No. The idea is a preposterous oxymoron and will remain so until the tide turns and parity of power between men and women is even remotely close to coming up over the horizon. [snip] It is certainly not probative to my assertion, but the number of men on this list of feminists is, laughably, minute.
But is it laughable because the number is so small, or because the number isn't zero?
To the extent that list has any bearing on your assertion, it looks like evidence that "male feminist" is not an oxymoron. In the last group of feminists born since 1940, about 6% are male; apparently among some people who care about feminism (care enough, at least, to compile lists of feminists) the notion that a man can be a feminist isn't terribly controversial.
Still, Wikipedia is publicly editable, so I suppose you could try to set them straight. If you do, I hope you'll report on how that went when you swing back here two weeks from now to deliver another critique on how disappointing the thread has been in your absence.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
My paragraph (Men do this; Men do that) that generate much heated, beside-the-point carping may not have much traction in those precincts, but it is sadly still valid in most of the world.
What I read below your paragraph was much reasoned debate . The point being made that the oppression of women worldwide is a basic human rights issue, over which both women AND men are allowed to protest without being labelled feminist , male feminist or otherwise.
Quote : Odd that the thread recently devolves into male orgasms, ties, objectification of male bodies, and circumcision. Fortunate then that the thread did not founder on the godwin's Law of willies.
-------------------- Change is the only certainty of existence
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
The Silent Acolyte wrote:
Is there such a thing as a male feminist?
My response remains a scathing No. The idea is a preposterous oxymoron and will remain so until the tide turns and parity of power between men and women is even remotely close to coming up over the horizon.
Well, you keep asserting this. Do you have any actual argument to back it up, as so far I'm struggling to see one?
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte: The proposition of the opening post (remember that?) was simply this: Is there such a thing as a male feminist?
My response remains a scathing No.
Are you a man? Are you a feminist? Do men have the right to speak on behalf of feminists? Do non-feminists have the right to speak on behalf of feminists? Do you have the right to speak on behalf of feminists? Do men have the right to determine who is or isn't a feminist? Do non-feminists have the right to determine who is or isn't a feminist? Do you have the right to determine who is or isn't a feminist?
RuthW and Kelly Alves say men can be feminists? Why should we listen to you rather than them?
-------------------- we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte: The idea is a preposterous oxymoron and will remain so until the tide turns and parity of power between men and women is even remotely close to coming up over the horizon.
As far as I can make out, you're deciding that one can only be a feminist if one achieves parity between men and women. Not if one aspires to it or advocates it.
I disagree.
-------------------- Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by rolyn:
Fortunate then that the thread did not founder on the godwin's Law of willies.
Godwillie's Corollary?: As an online discussion of women's issues grows longer, the probability of derailment towards men approaches 1.
-------------------- I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning Hallellou, hallellou
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Quite possibly. But it would be wrong to apply the corollary to a thread that was about men in the first place - just as it would be wrong to apply Godwin's Law to a thread about Germany in the 1930s.
-------------------- Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
TSA's original argument was that men can't speak for women. However, this assumes that 'feminist' means 'speaking for women', which is not correct. In any case, I don't see myself as speaking for anyone, whether men, women, men born in Manchester, UK, or Man Utd fans, or whatever.
Now he seems to have shifted to the rather vague argument about parity between men and women. What does this mean?
So for me, there is a distinct lack of real argument here, and rather a large amount of pure assertion.
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Reply to Orfeo Yes, of course. But perhaps a proviso or addendum in which men end up telling women how to define women's issues? Does not quite work here as the thread has, mostly, not done this. Damn you, reasonable people! [ 08. September 2013, 14:57: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
-------------------- I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning Hallellou, hallellou
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by quetzalcoatl: So for me, there is a distinct lack of real argument here, and rather a large amount of pure assertion.
No! Surely people do not do that. Not on the Internet?!
Innocence fading, childhood truly ending...
-------------------- I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning Hallellou, hallellou
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, they do do that on the internet. But then it ends up with one person saying 'no', and another person saying, 'yes'.
This is fairly entertaining of course, but after a while, one longs for some solid food, intellectually speaking.
So what would be an actual argument against men being feminists? That they are not women, and therefore cannot understand what it's like?
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
That is not a reasonable argument. The definition of feminism does not include any gender restrictions for adherence.
-------------------- I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning Hallellou, hallellou
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by lilBuddha: That is not a reasonable argument. The definition of feminism does not include any gender restrictions for adherence.
I agree. But we have a man on here asserting otherwise fairly forcefully.
And I genuinely can't fathom why.
-------------------- Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Guilt? "I'm a man, and men are shits, because they treat women so badly, so I am going to really really punish men, and one way of doing that is to say they can't be feminists, until they have done penance for all the shit they have done."
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
SA's argument is bizarre to me as well. A bit like you can come to the party when it is over.
-------------------- I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning Hallellou, hallellou
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte: The proposition of the opening post (remember that?) was simply this: Is there such a thing as a male feminist?
My response remains a scathing No. The idea is a preposterous oxymoron and will remain so until the tide turns and parity of power between men and women is even remotely close to coming up over the horizon.
Well, first of all, one of the most powerful ideas to come out of feminism, is that a lot of men are oppressed by patriarchy, too. Owen's Parable of the Old Men and the Young bears striking testimony to this, but we also have, in more recent times, gays and transsexuals as obvious examples, should you to decline to accept the argument that most ordinary people (and the planet) are assessed by the phallocentric military-industrial complex.
Secondly, by the same principle, wouldn't it also be the case that in a capitalist society, only members of the proletariat could be regarded as socialists? Clearly ridiculous - although I suppose that sort of idea is being expressed when people (often right-wing-ish people) sneer at 'Champagne Socialists'.
Thirdly, not all women are feminists; if women can side with patriarchy, why can't men side against it?
Finally, look at the racial struggle. We had an example on this site of someone being told (because of her skin colour) 'this ain't your fight' - and maybe it's true that, in the struggle for liberation, it's better that the oppressed organise their own struggle, but that doesn't mean white people can't be anti-racist, does it? That would surely also be ridiculous. Anyone can engage in the battle against racism, provided that they recognise that sometimes the struggle is within.
I think at one point in the gospels, Jesus says, he who is not with us is against us whereas at another point he says, he who is not against us is with us. Both stances are valid, but, on the whole, I tend to think the second one gets you further.
-------------------- Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
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argona
Shipmate
# 14037
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Posted
I've been out of this awhile, otherwise preoccupied and will be for a while yet, but I just dipped in, confess I've only read the last few posts.
I have been thinking why, despite Kelly and Ruth's convincing arguments that men can be feminists, I've always felt uncomfortable about calling myself that. Anti-sexist, absolutely. Equally I'm happy to call myself anti-racist, but if there was such a term as, say, 'blackist' it would seem presumptuous to call myself that. Why? Maybe because such terms would carry an implication of struggle against discrimination aimed at oneself? A sense that one is fighting to have one's own identity recognised and valued? I'm still not sure. Though perhaps the apparent reality that at least some feminists see it that way makes me pull my toe back out of the water. I really don't know.
I would like to see more recognition that while sex (with rare hermaphrodite exceptions) is binary, gender is a spectrum, and a fluid one at that. It's something I've been aware of personally, having spent most of my life doing things more typically done by women, and mainly in the company of women.
TSA, I get the impression that aspect of things has passed you by. Some have said to the effect that you're making bald assertions with no argument, and from your posts that I've read, I see no reason to disagree. Perhaps step off your soapbox and mix it with real life? Said in purgatorial love of course.
Posts: 327 | From: Oriental dill patch? (4,7) | Registered: Aug 2008
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte: The proposition of the opening post (remember that?) was simply this: Is there such a thing as a male feminist?
My response remains a scathing No. The idea is a preposterous oxymoron and will remain so until the tide turns and parity of power between men and women is even remotely close to coming up over the horizon.
Scathe away, but you still have nothing here but a claim. Perhaps this will be helpful.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Dafyd: RuthW and Kelly Alves say men can be feminists? Why should we listen to you rather than them?
Because he's a man, of course.
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
So, let's see. I'm a man, as the world reckons such things. I am most days the housekeeper, diaper-changer, lunch-maker, school-dropper-offer-and-picker-upper. When I work, one day a week, I work in a caring profession where most of my colleagues and superiors are women. I'm pretty content with my life. I see no reason to compel anyone to be anything other than what they are called to be, and I think that that kind of vocation is a matter of personal discernment in which genitalia and identity, while they may be relevant, are not fundamental.
I also think patriarchy sucks, even when it involves women playing at being The Man. It is a system I resist with what little leverage I possess.
But, apparently, because a lot of countries retain truly bizarre and abusive notions of gender, according to one person, I cannot be a feminist?
I feel pretty safely unscathed. [ 09. September 2013, 01:08: Message edited by: Bullfrog. ]
-------------------- Some say that man is the root of all evil Others say God's a drunkard for pain Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Bullfrog.: I'm a man
There's a man on this thread? Help, I'm being oppressed!!!
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by RuthW: quote: Originally posted by Bullfrog.: I'm a man
There's a man on this thread? Help, I'm being oppressed!!!
So, is that what it means to be feminist? Clearly, I have not understood what I am typing about...
-------------------- Some say that man is the root of all evil Others say God's a drunkard for pain Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Irony, thy name is RuthW.
-------------------- Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Weird how the person showing the most sexist attitudes on this thread is - drum roll - The Silent Acolyte!
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
I think there is a legitimate fear around men and feminism, which is this: because we live in a culture which takes certain voices more seriously than others, you can end up in a situation in which women have been saying something about women's rights for years, and then some guy steps up and says the same thing and everyone pays more attention because he's a man. I can't tell you how many times I've been linked to a website where someone is saying some seriously basic stuff about respecting women (ie "if she's passed out on your sofa, you don't get to rape her") and because it's a man saying it people respond as though he's an absolute saint. There are particular websites that do this a lot, and fortunately SoF is not one of them.
Male privilege can creep into male expressions of feminism and it's very frustrating when this happens. Particularly when the statements themselves are problematic in some way. One that comes up a lot is "Just remember, guys, when you're showing disrespectful attitudes towards a woman, that woman is someone's sister, or someone's mother, or someone's wife" and feminist ally cookies are duly handed out to the guy who says this. But I'm left thinking, hold on a minute. That woman is a human being, and your choosing to frame her in terms of her relationship to men is part of the problem. Even if she's not a sister, mother, or wife - even if there's not a single other person who cares about her - she still deserves respect. But if you point this out you tend to get a lot of "This guy is on our side! Lots of guys don't care about feminism at all! Why are you trying to fight him?"
In fact, sometimes there isn't even anything wrong with what the man says. But when women have been saying the same thing for years and been ignored, or been villified, or dismissed as ugly, hairy, man-hating hags for saying EXACTLY the same thing, and then a man says it and people listen, it's pretty frustrating. You get the same thing with racism: a white person says what PoC have been saying for ages and for some reason the white person gets a book deal and a lecture tour. In these cases, it's not exactly the fault of the man / white person / young and conventially attractive person / whoever that they get more attention, but it does make things more complicated.
So I kind of get that when people say they don't want men involved in feminism, this is what they're concerned about. Particularly in the light of events around a particular prominent (but always controversial) male feminist who's gone into meltdown recently and caused all manner of embarrassment to people who've supported him. My own feeling about this is that we're substantially throwing the baby out with the bathwater if we say that men can't be feminists because of these problems. If you set out to exclude a group from the discussion, then that group will go off somewhere else where they're wanted, and not hear any valid points you might then make. And good luck with changing society when you've pushed half the world's population out of the preliminary discussions.
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by argona: I have been thinking why, despite Kelly and Ruth's convincing arguments that men can be feminists, I've always felt uncomfortable about calling myself that.
In my case it's because it's a bit close to patting myself on the back. Coming from oneself in most contexts it sounds complacent. I try to be a feminist perhaps works.
-------------------- we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
It seems to me that if 'male feminist' is a contentious term, there's a perfectly acceptable alternative label that will suit many:
egalitarian
-------------------- Forward the New Republic
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Boy, this thread was about to die when I got on the plane on Thursday.
Brief comments:
Liopleurodon, your last few posts are excellent, and I encourage everyone to read them over a couple of times. Dead on.
Argona-- for the record, I am just as supportive of a guy opting out of labelling himself a feminist as I am of a guy mindfully claiming the title. Actions and attitudes are what are most important, anyway.
-------------------- I cannot expect people to believe “ Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.” Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It was dying, but The Silent Acolyte arrived to give it a fresh breath of life.
/irony alert.
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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argona
Shipmate
# 14037
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Posted
Thanks Kelly. Yes re thread dying, seems all's been said that could be.
Posts: 327 | From: Oriental dill patch? (4,7) | Registered: Aug 2008
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by argona: Thanks Kelly. Yes re thread dying, seems all's been said that could be.
Challenge accepted!
quote: Originally posted by Liopleurodon: Male privilege can creep into male expressions of feminism and it's very frustrating when this happens. Particularly when the statements themselves are problematic in some way. One that comes up a lot is "Just remember, guys, when you're showing disrespectful attitudes towards a woman, that woman is someone's sister, or someone's mother, or someone's wife" and feminist ally cookies are duly handed out to the guy who says this. But I'm left thinking, hold on a minute. That woman is a human being, and your choosing to frame her in terms of her relationship to men is part of the problem. Even if she's not a sister, mother, or wife - even if there's not a single other person who cares about her - she still deserves respect. But if you point this out you tend to get a lot of "This guy is on our side! Lots of guys don't care about feminism at all! Why are you trying to fight him?"
This is an excellent point, truly.
The thing is, we are in the midst of an enormous and unprecedented cultural change, and this takes time and happens in increments. Women should be respected simply because we are human beings, yes, but seeing women as related to those who are by default seen as human beings is a step in the right direction. And if in the meantime it staves off some date rapes, which I think it could, so much the better.
So I think the "she's someone's mother/ sister/ whatever" thing should be challenged if you think the person saying that is at the point where he could move forward a bit, but if this is something he's just arrived at, I wouldn't push it.
I note also that this sort of rhetoric is also regularly employed when folks are trying to humanize our views of death row inmates, homeless people, and the soldiers of other countries ("He's some mother's son").
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by argona: Thanks Kelly. Yes re thread dying, seems all's been said that could be.
If only that actually ended threads.
-------------------- I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning Hallellou, hallellou
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
If you're bored by the discussion, don't click on the thread!
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
The trouble is, somebody always has to have the last word. Har har har.
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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argona
Shipmate
# 14037
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by RuthW: I note also that this sort of rhetoric is also regularly employed when folks are trying to humanize our views of death row inmates, homeless people, and the soldiers of other countries ("He's some mother's son").
Yes! I was thinking like that today, seeing that awful image of Syrian soldiers about to be executed by rebels. Thinking first of them directly, knowing they were about to die. But equally of those who loved them, gave birth to them, went through the rollercoaster of joy, anxiety, love, frustration, that raising a child to adulthood involves. And it all comes to this. Awful. We define ourselves very much by our relationships, and they can't but figure hugely in how we feel for others.
Posts: 327 | From: Oriental dill patch? (4,7) | Registered: Aug 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by RuthW: If you're bored by the discussion, don't click on the thread!
Unless you're hosting the board of course...
-------------------- Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by orfeo: quote: Originally posted by RuthW: If you're bored by the discussion, don't click on the thread!
Unless you're hosting the board of course...
You knew the job was dangerous when you took it. (wav file)
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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