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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Zimmerman acquitted
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23304198
Remind me again, why should Black people in the US feel as if the should feel any allegiance to said country?
[ 13. November 2013, 21:01: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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Posted
This verdict shows the way a jury system works, or not. The verdict has to be respected .
Zimmerman can not be retried since he has been found innocent and the concept of double jeporady has attached . Of course he could be sued civily as happened to O.J.Simpson 2 decades ago.
I wonder how race relations will be affected ? I hope not negatively . O.K. I am
an optomist .
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
Posts: 873 | From: Victoria B.C. Canada | Registered: May 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Black guy walking through your white-sheet neighborhood? Want to take him out? Here's your easy guide:
1. Stalk him.
2. Jump him.
3. When he fights back, shoot him.
4. Claim it was self-defense.
Worked for Zimmerman. It can work for you.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Gaaaaa. ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
I would've thought they'd at least convict him on involuntary manslaughter. I don't know for sure what happened. But, even if everything Zimmerman said was true, even though the 911 dispatcher told him to back off, he a) went after Martin, anyway; and b) took a gun. Without that, it's unlikely that anything would've happened. He could've told the dispatcher where to find him (Zimmerman), and gone home.
This is apt to get nasty. Plus the movie "Fruitvale Station" is coming out. It's about the fatal shooting, a few years back in Oakland, Calif., of unarmed passenger Oscar Grant (Afr,-Am.) by Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART) officer Johann Messerle (white). (Messerle got 2 years, and was released after 1.) Plus the Supremes et al messing with the Voting Rights Act. And any number of other things.
I'm worried about riots, by whichever side (or both). I grew up in the '60s/'70s, with lots of riots and other unrest on the TV. When the verdict about the Rodney King beating came down, there were riots and looting here. When Grant was killed, there were riots in Oakland. And when you consider how...stupid, insensitive, clumsy, and corrupt the Oakland Police Dept. can be... Remember the pictures of "Occupy Oakland"? And then there are the violent anarchists that turn up to disrupt peaceful protests.
When her husband was elected, Michelle Obama said that she was proud of her country for the first time. Bet she doesn't feel that way now.
![[Frown]](frown.gif) ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
There is a fundamental flaw in going from Zimmerman is a freaking idiot who should have stayed in his car to Zimmerman is guilty of a crime. Rank stupidity is not a crime. Rank stupidity causing death isn't even a crime.
I think the jury asked for clarification about manslaughter precisely because they were trying to decide whether Zimmerman was over the line into criminal responsibility. A lot of that would have to do with whether to characterise his actions as being all one event or a series of events.
From what I've heard, I think the verdict is understandable.
Also, can we please stop presenting this as a whites vs blacks thing? Does anyone looking at Zimmerman SERIOUSLY think he answers the description of the stereotypical privileged white man of Anglo-Celtic heritage?
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Black guy walking through your white-sheet neighborhood? Want to take him out? Here's your easy guide:
1. Stalk him.
2. Jump him.
3. When he fights back, shoot him.
4. Claim it was self-defense.
Worked for Zimmerman. It can work for you.
The biggest problem with the case, as far as I can see, is an inability to prove point 2 in your scenario.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
That's the way jury trials work, and that's in part a consequence of the stupid Florida law.
Still, if a law abiding black man with a licensed gun happened to pass Zimmerman on the street, recognized him and felt threatened given his history and shot Zimmerman in self defense, I wonder how the law would be applied.
As for Zimmerman not being a "White" of traditional "Anglo-Celtic" heritage, "White" is an evolving concept in the U.S. There was a time when the Irish were not only not White, but as the joke in "Blazing Saddles" noticed, were briefly rated below Blacks on the social acceptability scale.
[ 14. July 2013, 06:26: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
white-sheet neighborhood
Are you implying that this was a Klan area of Florida?
Are you implying that Zimmerman (who apparently had African ancestry on his mother's side) was connected with the Klan?
If so, what is your evidence?
If not, why pour petrol on the fire?
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
As for Zimmerman not being a "White" of traditional "Anglo-Celtic" heritage, "White" is an evolving concept in the U.S. There was a time when the Irish were not only not White, but as the joke in "Blazing Saddles" noticed, were briefly rated below Blacks on the social acceptability scale.
It may well be an evolving concept, but I have serious doubts it has evolved to the point that Zimmerman would have grown up with the sense of racial entitlement that would enable him to think he could get away with murder, metaphorically or literally.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It may well be an evolving concept, but I have serious doubts it has evolved to the point that Zimmerman would have grown up with the sense of racial entitlement that would enable him to think he could get away with murder, metaphorically or literally.
Agreed. It was probably his policeman fantasy the made him think he could get away with murder.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
The first fault is with the stand your ground law. It, as well as Zimmerman's actions, caused an unnecessary death.
I do not think race can fairly be removed. If Zimmerman had been black and Martin had been white, I sincerely doubt that the treatment of the initial incident would have been the same. Nor do I believe the trial verdict would have been the same either.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Black guy walking through your white-sheet neighborhood? Want to take him out? Here's your easy guide:
1. Stalk him.
2. Jump him.
3. When he fights back, shoot him.
4. Claim it was self-defense.
Worked for Zimmerman. It can work for you.
The biggest problem with the case, as far as I can see, is an inability to prove point 2 in your scenario.
Do you think that Trayvon somehow dragged Zimmerman out of his car? If Zimmerman had stayed in his car, Trayvon would still be alive.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Black guy walking through your white-sheet neighborhood? Want to take him out? Here's your easy guide:
1. Stalk him.
2. Jump him.
3. When he fights back, shoot him.
4. Claim it was self-defense.
Worked for Zimmerman. It can work for you.
The biggest problem with the case, as far as I can see, is an inability to prove point 2 in your scenario.
Do you think that Trayvon somehow dragged Zimmerman out of his car? If Zimmerman had stayed in his car, Trayvon would still be alive.
That sounds like you're talking about point 1, not point 2. Yes he got out of his car. Yes he confronted Trayvon in some fashion. That simply doesn't prove 'jump'.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It may well be an evolving concept, but I have serious doubts it has evolved to the point that Zimmerman would have grown up with the sense of racial entitlement that would enable him to think he could get away with murder, metaphorically or literally.
Agreed. It was probably his policeman fantasy the made him think he could get away with murder.
I do think it's a more plausible explanation of his actions, yes.
As for murder... If we're going with intent to kill then the only conclusion is that Zimmerman was a pretty incompetent murderer. Either that or an amazingly clever one who cunningly got his victim to lie on top of him.
I find it far more plausible that Zimmerman found himself in way over his head and not in control of the situation as intended. I'm not finding the necessary mental intent for murder in there. I do think, though, that there was a prospect of a manslaughter conviction.
[ 14. July 2013, 07:15: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
This is terrifying.
If I were in the unlikely event to ever visit the USA - should I therefore get an itinerary for every single trip I take while on American soil (even down to a corner shop), and always be ready to show my passport and credentials to anyone who asks? And treat anyone and everyone as if they are undercover police?
As going armed is obviously not available to me as a Brit.
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Orfeo--
Maybe it's hard to see from Oz, but it IS a black and white thing. That's a horrible, poisonous vein in American life. I don't have the experience to really understand it, and I don't know how to fix it. But I know it's there.
Way too many black teens and men wind up in prison. IIRC, they're the majority in prison. (I may be wrong about that.) African-Americans are racially-profiled in stores (as thieves), on the road (AKA "driving while black or brown"), and just walking down the street, minding their own business.
African-Americans have been lied to by the powers that be, lied about, experimented on, beaten, killed, segregated, kept from voting, marginalized financially, and on and on and on. And they still survive.
As to Zimmerman's qualifications for white male privilege: he's white and he's male. In this kind of situation, that's all it takes.
I gather relations between light- and dark-skinned people have been similar in Oz, particularly with regards to the Aboriginal people.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Alan,
You are white, you are fairly safe.
[ 14. July 2013, 07:24: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Agreed. It was probably his policeman fantasy the made him think he could get away with murder.
It looks as though that is not a fantasy.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Orfeo--
Maybe it's hard to see from Oz, but it IS a black and white thing. That's a horrible, poisonous vein in American life. I don't have the experience to really understand it, and I don't know how to fix it. But I know it's there.
Way too many black teens and men wind up in prison. IIRC, they're the majority in prison. (I may be wrong about that.) African-Americans are racially-profiled in stores (as thieves), on the road (AKA "driving while black or brown"), and just walking down the street, minding their own business.
African-Americans have been lied to by the powers that be, lied about, experimented on, beaten, killed, segregated, kept from voting, marginalized financially, and on and on and on. And they still survive.
As to Zimmerman's qualifications for white male privilege: he's white and he's male. In this kind of situation, that's all it takes.
I gather relations between light- and dark-skinned people have been similar in Oz, particularly with regards to the Aboriginal people.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
{Sorry re duplicate posts. Connection hell.}
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Agreed. It was probably his policeman fantasy the made him think he could get away with murder.
It looks as though that is not a fantasy.
He definitely was not a policeman, although he wanted to be one.
He was correct that he could get away with murder using the law.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Also, can we please stop presenting this as a whites vs blacks thing? Does anyone looking at Zimmerman SERIOUSLY think he answers the description of the stereotypical privileged white man of Anglo-Celtic heritage?
Do you SERIOUSLY think that, if Zimmerman had seen a young white man he did not recognise, he would have rung the police to report him as a suspicious character? AIUI, he had previously reported about half a dozen people behaving suspiciously in the neighbourhood and all of them were black.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
This is terrifying.
If I were in the unlikely event to ever visit the USA - should I therefore get an itinerary for every single trip I take while on American soil (even down to a corner shop), and always be ready to show my passport and credentials to anyone who asks? And treat anyone and everyone as if they are undercover police?
As going armed is obviously not available to me as a Brit.
Now, this I can relate to. But I think it raises an entirely different question: just what do people think a murder conviction would achieve?
Convicting gun-toting morons doesn't bring the victims back. If some gun-toting moron shoots me while I'm over here, I'm not actually going to be THAT interested in what happens to them after. Even if I survive, my preferred outcome was not getting shot in the first place.
The problem is the gun wielding culture, and while I do wonder about the balance struck by some of the so-called stand your ground laws, the cultural problem is FAR wider than that in my view. Even if you recorded a conviction every time that a gun-toting moron hurt an innocent person as a result of misinterpreting events, there are a host of other morons who haven't YET hurt someone but are dangerous precisely because they believe they're immune from making dreadful mistakes.
Assuming that Zimmerman is guilty of nothing greater than profound idiocy and policeman fantasies, he might have learnt his lesson now. But it's frightening to think how many people in the USA might only learn their lesson at great cost to someone else.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Alan,
You are white, you are fairly safe.
Who is Alan?
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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Also, can we please stop presenting this as a whites vs blacks thing? Does anyone looking at Zimmerman SERIOUSLY think he answers the description of the stereotypical privileged white man of Anglo-Celtic heritage?
Do you SERIOUSLY think that, if Zimmerman had seen a young white man he did not recognise, he would have rung the police to report him as a suspicious character? AIUI, he had previously reported about half a dozen people behaving suspiciously in the neighbourhood and all of them were black.
And? I didn't suggest otherwise. Nowhere did I question the racial identity of Trayvon.
It has been observed that black people are sometimes more suspicious and nervous of the motivations of black people nearby. I cannot recall the famous black person who related feeling this nervousness and being taken aback by his own reaction. But being suspicious of black people didn't bleach his skin!!
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Short version: it is a logical fallacy to use proof that Trayvon is 'black' to demonstrate that Zimmerman must be 'white'.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Apologies for missing the edit window again, but it really does seem to me that there's a serious question why blacks vs whites fires the imagination to the extent that black man vs Hispanic man gets totally ignored.
According to a report I found in Australian media, Zimmerman is essentially half-Hispanic. To my eye he LOOKS Hispanic. I'll bet you a decent sum he grew up being treated as Hispanic by many people on the basis of his looks.
Rightly or wrongly, I know that in America 'white' and 'Hispanic' are treated as different categories of people. So when folks talk about this case as about whites shooting blacks, I end up wondering what the hell they're looking at. This not a case about whites shooting blacks. It's a case about BLACKS BEING SHOT.
Is that a thing for blacks to be angry about? Hell yes. But as I already referred to, beliefs about young black males are not somehow confined to 'whites'. Asians are not immune to making assumptions about black teenagers.
[ 14. July 2013, 08:30: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It has been observed that black people are sometimes more suspicious and nervous of the motivations of black people nearby. I cannot recall the famous black person who related feeling this nervousness and being taken aback by his own reaction. But being suspicious of black people didn't bleach his skin!!
This can still be directly traced to white racism, though.
quote:
Originally posted by Wesley J:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Alan,
You are white, you are fairly safe.
Who is Alan?
Typo. Apologies to Alex.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Is that a thing for blacks to be angry about? Hell yes. But as I already referred to, beliefs about young black males are not somehow confined to 'whites'. Asians are not immune to making assumptions about black teenagers.
Racism is not confined to one group. All are capable of this. I would add that the racism in a given area contains the character of the dominant group, even if the actors in any given situation do not belong to that group.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Is that a thing for blacks to be angry about? Hell yes. But as I already referred to, beliefs about young black males are not somehow confined to 'whites'. Asians are not immune to making assumptions about black teenagers.
Racism is not confined to one group. All are capable of this. I would add that the racism in a given area contains the character of the dominant group, even if the actors in any given situation do not belong to that group.
Possibly. But it still makes far more sense to deal with the issue in terms of the people who are suffering the racism, rather than focus on the race of the perpetrators if race is in fact no longer a unifying characteristic of the perpetrators. It may be quite true that the racism is an aspect that came from white culture, but huge confusions are going to arise if individual people are labelled as 'white' on the basis of their cultural participation rather than their skin colour.
References to the Klan, such as the one made up thread, seem utterly ridiculous when a true Klansman would probably regard Zimmerman as a filthy pollution of the purity of the Aryan race.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Black guy walking through your white-sheet neighborhood? Want to take him out? Here's your easy guide:
1. Stalk him.
2. Jump him.
3. When he fights back, shoot him.
4. Claim it was self-defense.
Worked for Zimmerman. It can work for you. Do you think that Trayvon somehow dragged Zimmerman out of his car? If Zimmerman had stayed in his car, Trayvon would still be alive.
The neighborhood was not "white-sheet," Travon's father lived there as well as other black and Hispanic people.
Zimmerman had a legal right to get out of his car. He even had a legal right to follow Martin down the streets of his neighborhood.
Number 2 is wrong by the testimony of several witnesses. Trayvon jumped Zimmerman, sat on his chest and pounded his head against the sidewalk. Would Zimmerman have died if he hadn't shot Martin? We don't know but "self-defense" only requires that he truly believe his life was in danger.
Zimmerman did a lot of dumb things. I don't even think people should own hand guns, much less carry them around but he wasn't on trial for stupidity.
Trayvon would still be alive if he hadn't jumped Zimmerman. I feel every sympathy for Trayvon's parents but that doesn't mean their son was blameless. Some things that were reported but not allowed in the trial were Trayvon's text messages talking about how much he loved to fight, all the fights he had been in and the ones he was hoping to have. He belonged to a Fight Club and is seen involved in a fight on an internet video. The reason he was at his father's place was that he was suspended from school.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
Copied from the closed thread:
quote:
Posted by Pearl B4 Swine (# 11451) on 13 July, 2013 08:42 AM :
Zimmerman's defense in his murder trial
It seems to me that Mr. Zimmerman is on thin, slippery ice with his 'fearing for his life' claim. Of course, any number of things or situations can cause a person to be mortally afraid. But the stand-your-ground seems to be an after-thought. What was the ferocious, suspicious looking kid going to do? Assault Zimmerman with his bag of Skittles? Versus a loaded, ready-to-shoot pistol? I say it doesn't look very good for Zimmerman.
Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on 13 July, 2013 10:18 AM :
Well, this is America. Kid is black, shooter is white. There you go. [Frown]
All you can is hope that reason prevails. Often, it doesn't. As if the Civil Rights Movement had never existed.
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on 14 July, 2013 04:17 AM :
FYI: he's been acquitted. See the "Zimmerman" thread here in Purg.
Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on 14 July, 2013 05:05 AM :
In other words do not turn the other cheek; confront, kill.
Normal Christian behaviour.
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on 14 July, 2013 05:50 AM :
quote:
Originally posted by Wesley J:
Well, this is America. Kid is black, shooter is white. There you go. [Frown]
All you can is hope that reason prevails. Often, it doesn't. As if the Civil Rights Movement had never existed.
Are you saying that because the victim was black and the shooter white, he should be convicted without a trial? The Civil Rights movement was about treating all races equally, not about favoring one over the other.
I watched every minute of this trail and I was very relieved last night when the jury returned with a verdict of "Not Guilty." I think reason did prevail.
I don't agree with most of George Zimmerman's decisions. I wish he had stayed home that night, not got out of his car and not been carrying a gun, but he wasn't on trail for those things.
Zimmerman reported, in a manner the police found perfectly credible, that Trayvon turned and attacked him, knocked him to the ground, then sat astride him and pounded his head against the sidewalk while Zimmerman screamed for help. Trayvon then saw Zimmerman's gun and reached for it. Zimmerman grabbed it first and shot Trayvon.
Is this account true? Several witnesses back it up, but more importantly, there was not enough evidence, if any, to the contrary to convict him of murder or manslaughter.
I wish Zimmerman had stayed home that night. Trayvon would still be alive. But if Zimmerman hadn't shot he may well have been dead or brain damaged and we never would have heard about it.
I'm glad this jury listened to the facts and wasn't swayed by the 2.2 million angry mob that seems to believe criminal justice should be based on the physical appearance of the individuals involved.
Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on 14 July, 2013 06:31 AM :
What alarms me about this acquittal is the apparent vindication it provides for "stand your ground" laws actually on the books in several states and being considered in others.
My state implemented such a law a couple of years ago. In my first annual session as lawmaker, our House of Reps tried unsuccessfully to repeal it.
These are bad laws, which effectively turn everybody into his or her own personal law enforcement officer without benefit of training, without solid knowledge of the laws and cases supporting them, and you can bet the NRA will now be pushing for similar legislation in all 50 states.
IMO, Stand Your Ground greatly enhances the already far-too-high risk of innocent US citizens getting shot in public while going about their ordinary, unexceptional business.
If I wanted to live in the Wild West, I'd have moved there.
Also, Twilight, you left out one important (to me, anyway) fact: When Zimmerman phoned in his suspicions, the dispatcher told him, "You don't have to follow him."
Zimmerman did so anyway -- against advice, against common sense. What description was ever obtained from Zimmerman about the "suspicious behavior" Martin was exhibiting to warrant his being followed, beyond WWB* in a lily-white neighborhood?
* Walking While Black
[ 14. July 2013, 11:32: Message edited by: Porridge ]
Posted by New Yorker (# 9898) on 14 July, 2013 06:46 AM :
As I understand it the stand your ground law did not play a role at all in this case. It says that you can "stand your ground" rather than retreating in a life-threatening situation. Zimmerman could not stand his ground rather than retreat because Travon had him on the ground and was banging his head into the sidewalk. You can't stand your ground if you can't retreat.
I'm sorry that Travon is dead. I'm sorry for his family. I wish that Zimmerman had not followed him. But what happened happened and the result is just.
Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on 14 July, 2013 06:50 AM :
Zimmerman's stalking of Trayvon Martin negates any claim of self-defense. Indeed, it can be reasonably argued that Trayvon Martin was defending himself. The outcome of the trial is not just, and I think we are still to see the fall-out.
[ 14. July 2013, 11:52: Message edited by: Gwai ]
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Alan,
You are white, you are fairly safe.
My blonde, blue-eyed son was attacked and beaten by groups of African-American men several times while he was living in a big city.
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
Which only goes to prove that race relations in the US are in a parlous state.
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Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It has been observed that black people are sometimes more suspicious and nervous of the motivations of black people nearby. I cannot recall the famous black person who related feeling this nervousness and being taken aback by his own reaction. But being suspicious of black people didn't bleach his skin!!
This can still be directly traced to white racism, though.
What's the rationale for tracing this back to white racism?
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
I can't answer for lilBuddha, but here's my answer:
When the worldview of those dominant in the culture (in this case, arguably, white males) conveys that X people are inferior, criminal, up to no good, etc., the entire culture absorbs that worldview to a greater or lesser extent.
Hence, under "separate-but-equal" education laws, small black children took on board that they weren't as smart, deserving, talented or industrious as small white children. (See Brown v. Board of Education)
It used to be standard practice in the US for newspapers to print the race of suspects when they were not white, but not indicate race when they were. The underlying assumption was the newspaper readers were white. (Thankfully, this is no longer the practice). Inevitably, this created the unconscious impression that criminals are overwhelmingly people of color. Since people of color of course DID read newspapers, they absorbed this impression too.
We all get exposed to the culturally-dominant views, and we all absorb them at least to some extent, regardless of whether we belong to the culturally-dominant group.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Copied from the closed thread:
Posted by New Yorker (# 9898) on 14 July, 2013 06:46 AM :
As I understand it the stand your ground law did not play a role at all in this case. It says that you can "stand your ground" rather than retreating in a life-threatening situation. Zimmerman could not stand his ground rather than retreat because Travon had him on the ground and was banging his head into the sidewalk. You can't stand your ground if you can't retreat.
[/QUOTE]
This analysis conveniently leaves out the fact that Zimmerman took the initiative here in leaving his vehicle to follow Martin and confront him. Had Zimmerman taken the dispatcher's advice, minded his own business and remained in his car, Martin could not have got Zimmerman on the ground.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
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Pearl B4 Swine
Ship's Oyster-Shucker
# 11451
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Posted
Evidently the ice wasn't nearly as thin or slippery as I had thought. Zimmerman's acquittal is very troubling, to me. I suppose the jury had to wade through a lot of grey area, and discard information which was not pertinent; but I feel that the manslaughter charge was justified. It wasn't just an unavoidable accident.
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"I do a good job and I know how to do this stuff" D. Trump (speaking of the POTUS job)
Posts: 3622 | From: The Keystone State | Registered: May 2006
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
I too thought manslaughter was the likeliest outcome. I saw only snippets of the trial as reported in the meejah, but it seems to me that what "Stand Your Ground" boiled down to in this instance was the fact that, in leaving his car against dispatcher's advice and following and confronting Martin, what Zimmerman was doing was questioning Martin's right to be where he (Martin) was.
IMO, "Stand Your Ground" is fundamentally a terrible idea, especially where 50 states now permit concealed carry, outside of the "castle" doctrine.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
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IconiumBound
Shipmate
# 754
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Posted
Having had a recent confrontation with a young black man (16-18 yrs)I would sympathize with Zimmerman IF Martin had "gotten into Zimmerman's face" as I experienced my confrontation.
If Martin had been white and the same lead-up to the fight had occurred, wouldn't he be seen as "a wise guy teenage punk"? And there would have been no story.
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
Indeed. I'm not 17, black, or male. If I found myself being followed and perhaps questioned by a midlife male stranger like Zimmerman, though, I might be excused for thinking Zimmerman was getting in my face.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
Zimmerman may have a German surname, but he looks Hispanic. If he had had the crap beaten out of him by a really white cop, the media would have called him Hispanic. Saying Zimmerman is 'white' in this context his simply stating he is not Black, Asian, or Native American.
Secondly, the burden of proof in a criminal case is beyond all reasonable doubt and the D.A.'s case just did not have the goods when it came to proving intent and disproving self-defence. They really should have gone with manslaughter with the option of knocking it down to involuntary manslaughter if they wanted a conviction. I have a suspicion that punting for murder 2 was a political rather than a rational decision given that the evidence for a Murder 2 conviction was not really there.
Personally I would have had Zimmerman for being a "felony wannabe" but that, unfortunately, is not on the statute book.
PD
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
if they wanted a conviction
I think you have inadvertently put your finger on it.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Caesar never changes.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
if they wanted a conviction
I think you have inadvertently put your finger on it.
This is possibly a factor.
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A side note: Hispanic do not have a "look." Hispanics can be anything from pasty, pale white ( European only ancestors) to dark Black (sub-Saharan only ancestors.) To be fair, in most photos, Zimmerman does have the mestizo look most Americans associate with Hispanic.
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Alan,
You are white, you are fairly safe.
My blonde, blue-eyed son was attacked and beaten by groups of African-American men several times while he was living in a big city.
Taken in context, my statement more correctly says Alex is safe from the Zimmerman/Martin type of encounter. Yes, this is a statistical safety rather than an absolute.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Secondly, the burden of proof in a criminal case is beyond all reasonable doubt and the D.A.'s case just did not have the goods when it came to proving intent and disproving self-defence. They really should have gone with manslaughter with the option of knocking it down to involuntary manslaughter if they wanted a conviction. I have a suspicion that punting for murder 2 was a political rather than a rational decision given that the evidence for a Murder 2 conviction was not really there.
PD
The jury was instructed to look at manslaughter if there was not enough evidence for murder. They looked at manslaughter so hard they sent back to court for further definition of it. They didn't find that there was enough evidence to meet manslaughter either.
I watched the entire trial and although I had been outraged at Zimmerman's behavior when I first read about it in the paper the trial convinced me that there was not enough evidence to convict on either charge. Zimmerman had a right to be suspicious of a young man standing in the rain, in the grass, looking at the windows of a condo for a long while, after they had experienced a series of burglaries. He had a duty as a volunteer neighborhood watch member to call the police. He had a duty to answer the operator's question as to the race of the suspect. He should have stayed in his car after the police told him to but the last thing the policeman said to him was, "Keep an eye on him." Zimmerman had lost sight of him and got out of the car to find out what direction he had gone. That much we know for sure.
Zimmerman says that it was at that point that Trayvon had circled behind him and jumped him. There were no actual witnesses to that but there were witnesses to Trayvon sitting on Zimmerman slamming his head on the ground and witnesses to the fact that Zimmerman was screaming for help. T
There are no laws against "following" someone even if that is what he had been doing. It's okay to get out of your car and walk in your own neighborhood, even if it's behind someone else.
There are no special laws making it worse for a white man to shoot a black man than vice versa and when someone bigger and stronger than you is beating you up you aren't required to ask if he is over eighteen before shooting him.
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
orfeo: quote:
Also, can we please stop presenting this as a whites vs blacks thing?
I don't think we should ignore what the Americans are saying; they are the ones most likely to understand the motivation of both parties concerned. I think it's also an older-people-vs-youth thing (young man walking down the street Must Be Up To No Good) and maybe a Lone-Gunslinger-Saves-The World thing (any problem can be solved if you have enough bullets*). But that doesn't mean that race is unimportant.
*Hollywood has a lot to answer for.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Eyewitness testimony is terrifying. It is inaccurate, easily influenced and changes over time. Interviewing eyewitnesses is beyond the training of many police, it is far from straight forward. Especially if one truly wishes to ascertain what actually occurred. Laws really should change to exclude it unless there is no other evidence. Even when it is admitted, it should be done so with many caveats.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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