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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Zimmerman acquitted
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
And the corresponding question is: Do you believe that a person who observes another individual standing around is justified in assuming he might be a burglar, and on that basis following him?
In a general sense, while it may not be a crime, it is not desirable behaviour. But people do not just stand around here, save at the station. There are no shops or other commercial premises for a km or more. If there had been a spate of burglaries over the last few weeks, and the person was not someone I knew lived in the area, I'd be a bit suspicious to say the least. Being someone of mature years, and not a member of a local neighbourhood watch, I think my own actions may be limited to ringing the police and some neighbours.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
The question is about the assumption, not the action. Why is anyone justified in believing that another person is a burglar when that other person is not engaged in burgling, or even in actions likely to lead to burgling, such as trying windows or doors?
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
The question is about the assumption, not the action. Why is anyone justified in believing that another person is a burglar when that other person is not engaged in burgling, or even in actions likely to lead to burgling, such as trying windows or doors?
It would not be believing that someone was a burglar, but may be given that there has been a spate of burglaries and that here, at least, people do not just hang around, by themselves, at night. They may where you live - I do not know.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Following someone is not a crime.
But it is threatening behavior. Physically attacking someone who has been following you may well be wanting to get the first punch in before they kill you.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Following someone is not a crime.
But it is threatening behavior. Physically attacking someone who has been following you may well be wanting to get the first punch in before they kill you.
You can always make verbal threats first.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
How do we know he didn't?
For that matter, Zimmerman had the same option: he could have called out to Martin. "Hey, kid: are you lost?"
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
[qb]Following someone is not a crime.
But it is threatening behavior./QB]
It's called stalking. quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
[QUOTE]
[QB] Physically attacking someone who has been following you may well be wanting to get the first punch in before they kill you.
As has been noted by several of my Black male peers. In all the posting that has been done on this thread it seems clear to me that some people, not having had to walk in those shoes, simply are unable to inwardly understand the day-to-day real as real can be reality of life as a perpetual profiling target, and a million more pages of this thread won't change their minds.
I can't speak for the rest of the European-dominant world (e.g. the UK) but that is exactly how it is now and always has been in the U.S., and not just in the South.
[ 05. August 2013, 04:05: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
It would not be believing that someone was a burglar, but may be given that there has been a spate of burglaries and that here, at least, people do not just hang around, by themselves, at night. They may where you live - I do not know.
I submit that, if you don't think somebody might be a burglar or up to some other misbehavior, you have no reason to follow him once he quits standing around and moves on.
You follow him, and what's more, attempt to do so surreptitiously (that is, you DON'T call out to him), only if you are trying to confirm your suspicion that he's up to no good.
And what malik said,in spades (no rude puns intended).
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
As has been noted by several of my Black male peers. In all the posting that has been done on this thread it seems clear to me that some people, not having had to walk in those shoes, simply are unable to inwardly understand the day-to-day real as real can be reality of life as a perpetual profiling target, and a million more pages of this thread won't change their minds.
I can't speak for the rest of the European-dominant world (e.g. the UK) but that is exactly how it is now and always has been in the U.S., and not just in the South.
As a white male resident of the U.S., I can tell you the reverse can also be true - there are some places where being a white person walking down the street will get you attention you don't want from the locals, as well. Been there, done that, got the bruises to prove it.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Following someone is not a crime.
But it is threatening behavior. Physically attacking someone who has been following you may well be wanting to get the first punch in before they kill you.
Or, more likely, it may be called "assault and battery" - which is convenient, since that's what it is.
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
As has been noted by several of my Black male peers. In all the posting that has been done on this thread it seems clear to me that some people, not having had to walk in those shoes, simply are unable to inwardly understand the day-to-day real as real can be reality of life as a perpetual profiling target, and a million more pages of this thread won't change their minds.
I can't speak for the rest of the European-dominant world (e.g. the UK) but that is exactly how it is now and always has been in the U.S., and not just in the South.
As a white male resident of the U.S., I can tell you the reverse can also be true - there are some places where being a white person walking down the street will get you attention you don't want from the locals, as well. Been there, done that, got the bruises to prove it.
Yes, African-Americans are not the only people to be in regular danger because of the color of their skin. Still, if you a white American, it looks a little bit bad to respond to stories of racism by saying you've had similar experiences. Unless the African-Americans who have spoken up are lying or delusional* we as white people are infinitely less likely to have such experiences. Do we really need to try to top their experiences?
*And I for one am quite sure they are neither
[ 05. August 2013, 16:55: Message edited by: Gwai ]
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
In all the posting that has been done on this thread it seems clear to me that some people, not having had to walk in those shoes, simply are unable to inwardly understand the day-to-day real as real can be reality of life as a perpetual profiling target, and a million more pages of this thread won't change their minds.
What I've noticed on this thread is a strong implication that if you believe (as I and Moo, who watched every minute of the trial believe, and Tortuf who is a lawyer believe) that there simply wasn't enough evidence against Zimmerman to convict him then we "must not understand the day-to-day reality of life as a perpetual profiling target."
The two things are not mutually exclusive. I do, and always have, believed that racial profiling exists. I am in favor of stronger gun laws that would prohibit the sale of handguns to most people. I also believe that Zimmerman was probably acting within the legal definition of self-defense at the moment he shot Trayvon Martin, or at least there is not enough proof otherwise to send him to prison.
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Still, if you a white American, it looks a little bit bad to respond to stories of racism by saying you've had similar experiences. Unless the African-Americans who have spoken up are lying or delusional* we as white people are infinitely less likely to have such experiences. Do we really need to try to top their experiences?
This is similar to the response you directed at me when I shared with another African American poster the experiences of my son. My post was intended, though not received, as a comfort. I was trying to tell her that I understood the pain of having your male relatives targeted by police since I had experienced it myself and to say, yes it's a frightening thing.
I'm not sure why you would conclude that by trying to express understanding through shared experiences we are trying to "top" their experience. If a friend's father is dying of cancer and I say, "Oh, I'm so sorry, my father died of cancer, too, I know it's awful," would you accuse me of trying to top their grief? Maybe so.
At the same time I was accused of trying to say
that racial profiling doesn't exist or that it is exaggerated. Again, that is a false assumption. It's perfectly possible to believe that racial profiling is a problem and still state that you as a white person have had some bad experiences with police.
The refusal to allow white people to share their experience, to claim that such experience just simply is irrelevant and painless compared to any similar situation suffered by a black person tells us that we can never understand the other and that any attempt toward empathy is wasted. It is divisive and unhelpful. It becomes a "you can't touch this," contest of Most Victimized Ever. It says you can't understand so don't even try. How can this help us go forward?
Few of us are descendant of aristocrats and kings. Most people can look to the past to find persecution and mistreatment from others. Many of the white people in America today are here because they were starving to death in their native countries while the people in power took their last coins as rent. While African Americans were suffering as slaves, Irish people were starving to death and Jewish people can usually win any contest of mistreatment.
What are we to do? If some of us are required to carry a burden of guilt based on the sins of our grandfathers then how do you determine whose ancestors were plantation owners and whose were abolitionists? If you are a person with medium brown skin indicating both white and black ancestors do you have to despise part of yourself?
I believe we should be working for equal rights for everyone. Where profiling exists it should be ended. Where voting laws are keeping people from being fairly represented then they should be changed. We should work to make sure everyone has good health care, good schooling and decent food. But how does it help to keep trying to shame certain people based on their skin color? When has anyone's mental health or behavior improved because they carried a burden of guilt?
This is a new century and we should be busy putting the entire idea of race to an end. Most anthropologists agree that the very idea of humans coming in different "races," like different dog breeds is a false, unscientific, construct. Initially it was a way for explorers to describe the peoples they had seen on other continents. It meant absolutely nothing but outward evidence of adaptation to climate. Dictionary attempts to describe different races are laughable, often the people most upset about the treatment of their "race," clearly have ancestors of the very people they see as the enemy.
To me it is a backward step to try to convince others that our particular race is the most mistreated or misunderstood when it's time for all of us to quit identifying ourselves by any race at all. We should simply quit checking those boxes and stop describing ourselves or others with those labels and move on.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
What I've noticed on this thread is a strong implication that if you believe (as I and Moo, who watched every minute of the trial believe, and Tortuf who is a lawyer believe) that there simply wasn't enough evidence against Zimmerman to convict him then we "must not understand the day-to-day reality of life as a perpetual profiling target."
I cannot speak for malik3000, but my comments were regarding the implication that Martin was at primary fault. And trying to help people see how Zimmerman's following him could be seen as a threat.
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
This is similar to the response you directed at me when I shared with another African American poster the experiences of my son. My post was intended, though not received, as a comfort. I was trying to tell her that I understood the pain of having your male relatives targeted by police since I had experienced it myself and to say, yes it's a frightening thing.
I'm not sure why you would conclude that by trying to express understanding through shared experiences we are trying to "top" their experience.
Often anecdotes of a minor injustice are used to attempt to nullify incidences of major injustice. My apology for my misunderstanding your intent.
TE]Originally posted by Twilight:
We should simply quit checking those boxes and stop describing ourselves or others with those labels and move on. [/QUOTE]
I have hear this argument many times and, on the surface, it sounds reasonable. The problem is those boxes have been checked, and the injustices continue.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
As has been noted by several of my Black male peers. In all the posting that has been done on this thread it seems clear to me that some people, not having had to walk in those shoes, simply are unable to inwardly understand the day-to-day real as real can be reality of life as a perpetual profiling target, and a million more pages of this thread won't change their minds.
That might explain why Martin attacked Zimmerman, of course (if, in fact, he did do that). I don't see that it has much to do with the question of Zimmerman's guilt.
It is quite possible that both men were honestly and understandably convinced that the other one was the aggressor. As a result, a terrible mistake was made resulting in a death of an innocent person. That doesn't mean that the survivor is a criminal who should go to prison for the rest of his life.
It doesn't follow, as some people seem to assume, that if Martin was innocent, Zimmerman must be guilty. Or the other way around, for that matter. If the jury thought that when Zimmerman shot Martin he was within the legal definition of self defence, then they were right to acquit him. That has absolutely nothing to do with whether Martin's actions were reasonable, from his point of view.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Porridge, the clouds outside are very black indeed. While the forecast is for heavy rain, there’s none actually falling. Do you take your raincoat and umbrella? And in any event, as my post makes clear, I was talking of our particular suburb, where people just do not stand around by themselves in the street at night. Given the general attitude here, I would not pursue that person, or even track him. Rather, I would warn neighbours and perhaps call the police. With the very strict gun control laws here, I would not be armed either.
I agree with Malik 3000 that there has been long-standing profile targeting of blacks in the US. Here, there is now a lot of similar targeting of those from Middle Eastern backgrounds. Neither is pleasant, neither is accurate. But the question being discussed is the acquittal of Zimmerman, not these systemic attitudes.
As Moo says, and I have said in the past, the verdict was reached by the jury on the basis of the evidence before them. There is nothing to suggest that there was some other evidence which could have been presented but was somehow withheld by the prosecution. A reasonable jury, properly directed, could not have convicted Zimmerman on the evidence presented in court.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
It doesn't follow, as some people seem to assume, that if Martin was innocent, Zimmerman must be guilty. Or the other way around, for that matter. If the jury thought that when Zimmerman shot Martin he was within the legal definition of self defence, then they were right to acquit him. That has absolutely nothing to do with whether Martin's actions were reasonable, from his point of view.
Very, very good point.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Yes, thanks Eliab.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Yes, African-Americans are not the only people to be in regular danger because of the color of their skin. Still, if you a white American, it looks a little bit bad to respond to stories of racism by saying you've had similar experiences. Unless the African-Americans who have spoken up are lying or delusional* we as white people are infinitely less likely to have such experiences. Do we really need to try to top their experiences?
*And I for one am quite sure they are neither
Why does it look bad to offer another perspective on the one-sided story being told here?
No attempt to "top" made - just a gentle reminder that "African-American" does not necessarily, in every case, equal "victim". It can, and does, occur that an African-Americans can be the aggressor in a conflict (as well as victim, or disinterested bystander, or any other classification of people one would like to make). A few folks here seem to have no concept of that possibility - white guilt is an amazing thing sometimes... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Racism is bad. Period. No matter who does it. But not every conflict between an African-American person and a non-African-American person is the result of racism. Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
The refusal to allow white people to share their experience, to claim that such experience just simply is irrelevant and painless compared to any similar situation suffered by a black person tells us that we can never understand the other and that any attempt toward empathy is wasted. It is divisive and unhelpful. It becomes a "you can't touch this," contest of Most Victimized Ever. It says you can't understand so don't even try. How can this help us go forward?
This.
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
Racism is bad. Period. No matter who does it. But not every conflict between an African-American person and a non-African-American person is the result of racism. Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.
Except some seem to be claiming that a cigar is only ever a cigar, and that there's no such thing as racism in America anymore. Or, at least, that anything short of wearing a white hood or a swastika armband can't possibly be racist. Sometimes not even then. Whenever there's some kind of racist incident in the news we get treated to commentators (usually, but not always, white) spinning ever-more implausible explanations rather than accept the simple idea that a certain action was racist. Eventually it gets a "who're you gonna believe: me or your lyin' eyes?" feel to it.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
Gwai/Crœsos - fair. My experience undoubtedly influences my thoughts on the matter; there are those folks (and I deal with a lot of them in my professional life) who will find racism anywhere and everywhere, because they're always looking for it. I was simply trying to suggest that sometimes the racism folks are finding is more projection than reality.
Of course racism exists. In all groups, against all groups. And we need to work toward ending it wherever it exists. But that isn't helped by seeing a racist around every corner, any more than <sarcasm>McCarthyism rid the world of the scourge of Communism. </sarcasm>
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
Gwai/Crœsos - fair. My experience undoubtedly influences my thoughts on the matter; there are those folks (and I deal with a lot of them in my professional life) who will find racism anywhere and everywhere, because they're always looking for it. I was simply trying to suggest that sometimes the racism folks are finding is more projection than reality.
Of course racism exists.
Most racism deniers will admit, as above, that generic racism exists in society, and yet are unwilling to describe any action short of a literal Klan rally as racist. In other words, according to the deniers racism exists, but there's never any specifically racist incidents other than a few egregious and extreme outliers. It's a blind spot I've always found a bit curious.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc, pace Crœsos:
Most people who have a tendency to attribute racism in any and every case of tension between a black and a non-black person will admit that generic misattribution of racism exists in society, and yet are unwilling to describe any action short of an "all non-blacks are black-oppressors" rally as generic misattribution of racism. In other words, according to the deniers of misattribution of racism, it exists, but there's never any specifically incidents other than a few egregious and extreme outliers. It's a blind spot I've always found a bit curious.
[ 06. August 2013, 22:08: Message edited by: Chesterbelloc ]
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
The central point here, at least for me, is not only that racism exists, but that racism victimizes everyone it touches.
I, for one, am not willing to claim that one of these parties was "innocent" and the other "guilty." Martin ended up dead, and it certainly looks, from afar, as though racism may be implicated in that death.
Martin also, at least as far as we know, assaulted Zimmerman -- that was the immediate cause (again so far as we know) of his death.
Zimmerman, on the other hand, while acquitted of serious charges, faces a future which looks, at best, pretty grim. Getting a job may pose problems. Staying married may pose problems. Renting an apartment, ditto. Plus he may spend the rest of his life looking over his shoulder. Racism might be implicated here as well.
Again, I wish more than ever we could mount a real national effort to lay our ghosts, to actually listen to each other, our fears, our burdens, our hostility, our hopes.
Croesos is right: "racism," as we discuss it, is always somewhere else, carried on by someone else, often in some other time, and it's never now, never us, and never under our own noses.
How can we cure a disease no one will ever admit to having?
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
... It is quite possible that both men were honestly and understandably convinced that the other one was the aggressor. As a result, a terrible mistake was made resulting in a death of an innocent person. That doesn't mean that the survivor is a criminal who should go to prison for the rest of his life. ...
The justice system has determined that George Zimmerman was not guilty, and that's that. I myself still worry about who was responsible for what happened, and I am still stuck on these facts:
One person decided to take a gun with him just to go to the grocery store.
One person, who was a Neighbourhood Watch volunteer and had other training, decided to immediately call the police to report an innocent teenager.
One person, armed with a gun, decided to follow an innocent person in a vehicle and on foot.
One person had all the advantages - maturity, training, a vehicle, a weapon, and direct contact with the 911 operator.
Zimmerman may be legally not guilty, but as far as I'm concerned, he's 99 and 44/100 % responsible. He's responsible for being an obsessive, hyperactive wanna-be cop with a concealed weapon. He's responsible because he didn't just ask Trayvon Martin, "Hi, I'm George, may I help you?" He's responsible for immediately assuming that an innocent person might be a criminal and he's responsible for choosing to follow that person.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
As has been noted by several of my Black male peers. In all the posting that has been done on this thread it seems clear to me that some people, not having had to walk in those shoes, simply are unable to inwardly understand the day-to-day real as real can be reality of life as a perpetual profiling target, and a million more pages of this thread won't change their minds.
That might explain why Martin attacked Zimmerman, of course (if, in fact, he did do that). I don't see that it has much to do with the question of Zimmerman's guilt.
It is quite possible that both men were honestly and understandably convinced that the other one was the aggressor. As a result, a terrible mistake was made resulting in a death of an innocent person. That doesn't mean that the survivor is a criminal who should go to prison for the rest of his life.
It doesn't follow, as some people seem to assume, that if Martin was innocent, Zimmerman must be guilty. Or the other way around, for that matter. If the jury thought that when Zimmerman shot Martin he was within the legal definition of self defence, then they were right to acquit him. That has absolutely nothing to do with whether Martin's actions were reasonable, from his point of view.
Exactly. I don't know how many pages ago I pointed this out, so I feel it's worth repeating. A trial is the defendant vs the State, not the defendant vs the victim.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
Gwai/Crœsos - fair. My experience undoubtedly influences my thoughts on the matter; there are those folks (and I deal with a lot of them in my professional life) who will find racism anywhere and everywhere, because they're always looking for it. I was simply trying to suggest that sometimes the racism folks are finding is more projection than reality.
Of course racism exists.
Most racism deniers will admit, as above, that generic racism exists in society, and yet are unwilling to describe any action short of a literal Klan rally as racist. In other words, according to the deniers racism exists, but there's never any specifically racist incidents other than a few egregious and extreme outliers. It's a blind spot I've always found a bit curious.
Since you quoted me, I'll assume you're labeling me a "racism denier" here. Funny. I could have sworn I was describing racism a few posts back - just not the garden-variety "white on black" racism you seem to find everywhere you look:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
As a white male resident of the U.S., I can tell you the reverse can also be true - there are some places where being a white person walking down the street will get you attention you don't want from the locals, as well. Been there, done that, got the bruises to prove it.
Race may well have played a part in the confrontation that led to Trayvon Martin's death. We'll never know for certain, I suspect; Martin is dead, and Zimmerman isn't talking. Although we *do* have Martin's remarks about the "creepy-ass cracker" - though that can't be racism, of course, as Martin wasn't white. ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
Chesterbelloc: ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) Well played.
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn
Race may well have played a part in the confrontation that led to Trayvon Martin's death. We'll never know for certain, I suspect...
During the trial the prosecutors specifically said that this was not a racial crime.
I think the worst actions in the case were done by the media. They seized upon this as a racial matter, and put out reports that suppressed other information. The first photo of Martin that came out was a picture of a child. I don't know how many years old it was. Some of the brief news reports left the impression that a white man had shot a black child who was walking down the street with a bag of candy. The coverage didn't get much better.
I followed the trial closely, and I also read what my morning newspaper had to say. At the trial it was very clear that many prosecution witnesses said things very favorable for the defense; the media gave no indication of this. They also underplayed the strength of the defense case. All this made it appear that the verdict was a gross miscarriage of justice. I wondered if the media wanted race riots.
America has serious problems with racial injustice, but inaccurate information only fans the flames.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Winnow
Apprentice
# 5656
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Posted
As a UU, I read a fair amount from various religious perspectives. I read a Jewish woman's blog, and came across this post from her about a year ago ... seems appropriate, somehow:
=====================
It was an accident. I didn't mean to break it, Mama. It's not my fault; it was an accident.
And then he promptly burst into heart-wrenching sobs.
I scooped my five year old into my arms and rocked him until his tears stopped.
I know that it was an accident and I know that he didn't mean to break it.
But the fact remains that the Lenox frame that we received as a wedding present is irreparably broken. And the truth is that it is Jacob's fault.
That's how intentions often work.
Things that we meant to do, but didn't.
Or things that we didn't mean to do, but did anyway.
You are right, my son, when you say that you didn't mean to break the frame. But sometimes the intention is less significant than the consequence. And for that, you must take responsibility.
A hard lesson.
True teshuvah, though, comes not only from recognizing our intentions. It comes once we have taken responsibility for our actions or lack thereof.
The shards have been swept.
And the tears are long dried.
Only time will reveal whether Jacob recognizes his responsibility for my broken picture frame.
==================
The verdict may very well have been the only one possible under the circumstances. But Mr. Zimmerman has a lot of soul-searching to do, I think.
Posts: 34 | From: Idaho | Registered: Mar 2004
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
A trial is the defendant vs the State, not the defendant vs the victim.
Technically, yes. But Americans (lay people, at least) tend to view it as defendant vs. victim. This is reinforced by TV and movies.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
A trial is the defendant vs the State, not the defendant vs the victim.
Technically, yes. But Americans (lay people, at least) tend to view it as defendant vs. victim. This is reinforced by TV and movies.
I would also say, technically, but not practically.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
As a white male resident of the U.S., I can tell you the reverse can also be true - there are some places where being a white person walking down the street will get you attention you don't want from the locals, as well. Been there, done that, got the bruises to prove it.
Race may well have played a part in the confrontation that led to Trayvon Martin's death. We'll never know for certain, I suspect; Martin is dead, and Zimmerman isn't talking. Although we *do* have Martin's remarks about the "creepy-ass cracker" - though that can't be racism, of course, as Martin wasn't white.
Yes, "Whites" are the target of violence by "Blacks" as well as the reverse case, and no violence is good. But there is not an equivalence. THERE. IS. NOT. AN EQUIVALENCE.
As I noted above, the average European-American male does not have the experience of being a 24-7 profiling target. as do basically all African-American males in a White world, whether they are wearing hoodies or suits. (And that's not to say African-American females are not also targeted btw)
Chauncey DeVega's blog, We Are Respectable Negroes blog addresses the use of the term "cracker" :
quote:
"Black folks yelling cracker did not systematically deny whites their civil rights, burn them alive, enslave and rape them by the millions, mutilate their bodies, or leave them hanging from tree during spectacular lynchings. Likewise, African-Americans never enforced a several centuries long regime of racial terrorism against white people, dehumanizing them through the use of language intended to legitimate their oppression and exploitation."
There is not an equivalence.
[ 08. August 2013, 03:27: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
Yes, "Whites" are the target of violence by "Blacks" as well as the reverse case, and no violence is good. But there is not an equivalence. THERE. IS. NOT. AN EQUIVALENCE.
There is, and there isn't, and here's why:
There is not an equivalence in the collective effects of sustained racial attacks and suspicion. As you point out, and as the President mentioned some time ago, basically all black people in the US have been followed around stores by security guards, because the guard has assumed that the black person might be a thief. Etc., etc. - whilst white people might be victims of racial discrimination and attacks on occasion, these things are comparatively rare, and white people do not go through their lives expecting to be victims of racism.
There is an equivalence, because individual acts of racism are not collective. When person A encounters person B, who has a different skin tone, or accent, or style of dress, he has two choices - to treat person B as another human individual, or to be prejudiced against B because he has the wrong skin, wrong clothing or wrong accent.
That is a choice that you make each time you encounter another person, and a white person choosing to beat up a black person makes the same choice as a black person choosing to beat up a white person, who makes the same choice as someone choosing to beat up a "goth" or a nerd or whoever else.
The collective effects on the ensemble of black people are not the same as on the ensemble of white people, because of the differing statistics (and yes, this includes a past history of racial prejudice) but the individual act is the same.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
The collective effects on the ensemble of black people are not the same as on the ensemble of white people, because of the differing statistics (and yes, this includes a past history of racial prejudice) but the individual act is the same.
The collective effect of the past denies the effect of the individual act being the same.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
There is an equivalence, because individual acts of racism are not collective.
I disagree. It's not an either/or, it's both/and. An act of racist violence is often intended to intimidate all members of the racial group victimized, not just the specific person against whom the violence is perpetrated. Redlining certain neighborhoods isn't just an isolated series of actions against a certain number of individuals, it's also meant to send a message to the group discriminated against whether they ever wanted to move to that neighborhood or not. A criminal justice system that disproportionately targets certain racial groups isn't just a series of accused criminals receiving unjust punishments, it's also meant to intimidate every single person fitting the targeted profile.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The collective effect of the past denies the effect of the individual act being the same.
That is exactly why I said that the effect was different, because of the collective effects. The effect is different, but the actual racist act is the same.
If you're loading straws onto the camel, each act of placing a straw is the same. The fact that the final straw made the camel collapse, whereas there was little obvious effect from the previous straws doesn't make the act of placing the last straw any different from the straw before it.
Or consider someone who walks down the street and yells "fat ass" at a fat person. In one universe, the victim shrugs it off. In another universe, this is the final straw that causes the victim to go home and kill him/herself. Big difference in effect, but same act.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
Exactly what lilBuddha said. Also what Croesos said -- it's not either/or, it's both/and. (which. btw, is true of so many things -- limiting our thinking to just either/or is one of the biggest banes of human existence.)
Speaking generally, the White camel has not had as many straws placed on his/her back as has the Black camel. The Black camel certainly feels the difference. And the straw-placer has no excuse for not knowing the difference if he or she will only open the eyes of her/his God-given mind. Willful ignorance is not an excuse. To re-state what I quoted above -- Whites were not, by the millions, kidnapped, enslaved, raped, tortured, and dehumanized in the most profoundly disrespectful manner. However Blacks were, at the hands of Whites. Again, no equivalence.
The fact that some individuals -- not in different universes but in the same universe, have been able to enure themselves to this situation and others have been crushed by it, does not change the reality of the above. Indeed it just adds to the tragedy of the situation.
[ 08. August 2013, 11:04: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Winnow:
As a UU, I read a fair amount from various religious perspectives. I read a Jewish woman's blog, and came across this post from her about a year ago ... seems appropriate, somehow:
=====================
It was an accident. I didn't mean to break it, Mama. It's not my fault; it was an accident.
And then he promptly burst into heart-wrenching sobs.
I scooped my five year old into my arms and rocked him until his tears stopped.
I know that it was an accident and I know that he didn't mean to break it.
But the fact remains that the Lenox frame that we received as a wedding present is irreparably broken. And the truth is that it is Jacob's fault.
That's how intentions often work.
Things that we meant to do, but didn't.
Or things that we didn't mean to do, but did anyway.
You are right, my son, when you say that you didn't mean to break the frame. But sometimes the intention is less significant than the consequence. And for that, you must take responsibility.
A hard lesson.
True teshuvah, though, comes not only from recognizing our intentions. It comes once we have taken responsibility for our actions or lack thereof.
The shards have been swept.
And the tears are long dried.
Only time will reveal whether Jacob recognizes his responsibility for my broken picture frame.
==================
I'll try to look past the indications that this woman is rather materialistic and unforgiving of a five year old child's lack of fine motor skills and take it as I think you intended, a metaphor for when we withhold forgiveness until we are satisfied that the perpetrator is fully cognizant of his responsibility and guilt.
From what I've read about Zimmerman's statements since the trial ended he isn't bearing as much guilt as I think I would if I had carried a gun into a situation that resulted in a young person's death by that gun. But then I think his refusal to say that he has regrets about that night and would do things differently is probably, at least partly, do to all the hatred that has been voiced against him. He is on the defensive in a way I can barely imagine.
Taking this woman's poem to Malik's larger points (Malik please correct me where I'm misunderstanding you,) I can see the metaphor extended to it's greatest length.
Malik seems to be saying that no black vs white crime should ever be judged alone, apart from history. Until white people, in large numbers, are enslaved, raped, murdered and lynched by black people then we should not expect to be treated equally. Until a proportionate representative of white people fill the prisons, black criminals should be let go. Until enough O.J. Simpsons (of whom evidence seems to point to guilt) are sent home, to equal the number of African-Americans who have been sent to jail or lynched without due evidence. Until the police drive on past enough young black men on the streets and only stop white men, regardless of descriptions called in -- we wont be "even."
White people will never voice enough apology or suffer enough guilt, or suffer enough in general, to satisfy him and like the mother in the poem he will sit and wait and withhold forgiveness and follow his own definitions of equality and justice.
If that's the case then so be it, but be aware that it puts whites in the position of either perpetual self-hatred, or, like Zimmerman, a sort of blanket, defensive denial. There is no chance of coming together in understanding and love.
I'll add a third white position that I see sometimes among my fellow white liberals -- a belief that if they agree strongly enough with Malik's position and do enough public self-flogging, that will somehow set them apart from other whites and so they feel that all the hatred against whites they encounter and read is directed at everyone else but them. I think they would be surprised at how little that weighs in their favor and how temporary it is. Toni Morrison has said many times that she would never trust any white person and that includes all of us even the white liberals she teaches college with and the whites who awarded her the Pulitzer prize.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Until white people, in large numbers, are enslaved, raped, murdered and lynched by black people then we should not expect to be treated equally.
Isn't this a bit tautological? You're arguing that because white people are treated differently (not enslaved, raped, murdered, lynched, etc.) they don't expect to be treated equally. That's pretty much the definition of white privilege; the idea that you won't be treated the same as darker-hued individuals. Although I think what you're getting at is the idea that we should work to maintain the pretense of equal treatment in unequal circumstances.
Which gets to the heart of your complaints about anti-white discrimination. Black American's fears about white racism are mostly about being enslaved, raped, murdered, lynched, discriminated against on the job, or when getting a mortgage, or any number of other very negative consequences.
As you and Chesterbelloc have ably illustrated, white fears of black racism mostly concern worrying that blacks will notice that any of the above is happening and get upset about it. These are not comparable. The former is based on an assessment of real-world hazards. The latter is based on the arrogant assumption that you have the right and authority to dictate what other people think about their own situation.
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Toni Morrison has said many times that she would never trust any white person and that includes all of us even the white liberals she teaches college with and the whites who awarded her the Pulitzer prize.
I'm not familiar with the composition of the 1988 Pulitzer Jury on Fiction. Are you sure it was an all-white body? Even if so, aren't you essentially arguing that Toni Morrison's trust has been "bought" with a Pulitzer and that she's illegitimately withholding it?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Twilight,
No. It is not necessary or wanted that white people suffer equally. Only that they understand the effect that suffering.
No guilt, no self-recrimination; just awareness.
I do not agree with Ms. Morrison, but I do understand.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Sorry for the double post.
Just wished to add that it is simply black and white, melanin v. lack; anyone who has suffered for what they are and not what they have done bears a similar burden.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
Thank you, Twilight, for your thoughtful and thought-filled responses to my postings. You raise some interesting and pertinent issues that deserve addressing IMHO, issues that have indeed been on my mind as well. They deserve a more thought-out response than I can properly give them right at this moment, but I will try to address them when I get a breather from some physical-world activities.
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
From what I've read about Zimmerman's statements since the trial ended he isn't bearing as much guilt as I think I would if I had carried a gun into a situation that resulted in a young person's death by that gun. But then I think his refusal to say that he has regrets about that night and would do things differently is probably, at least partly, do to all the hatred that has been voiced against him. He is on the defensive in a way I can barely imagine.
That, to which we can probably add the potential prospect of having to face a civil prosecution. If they're any good, his lawyers will have advised him to be careful what he says about how he feels about the incident lest it should be taken as self-incriminatory.
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
As you and Chesterbelloc have ably illustrated, white fears of black racism mostly concern worrying that blacks will notice that any of the above is happening and get upset about it. These are not comparable. The former is based on an assessment of real-world hazards. The latter is based on the arrogant assumption that you have the right and authority to dictate what other people think about their own situation.
Um, bullshit. I was making a rhetorical point by turning your own accusation against you: if it's disingenuous only to admit to theoretical cases of racism against black people and never to accept any actual examples of it, it is just as unjust never to admit that any particular case of violence against a black person by a non-black might not be motivated by racist prejudice. In this case, there is scant evidence that Zimmerman was motivated by a racist mindset. But some people seem deeply invested in making it out to be a racially motivated attack. Cui bono?
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Which gets to the heart of your complaints about anti-white discrimination.
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Toni Morrison has said many times that she would never trust any white person and that includes all of us even the white liberals she teaches college with and the whites who awarded her the Pulitzer prize.
I'm not familiar with the composition of the 1988 Pulitzer Jury on Fiction. Are you sure it was an all-white body? Even if so, aren't you essentially arguing that Toni Morrison's trust has been "bought" with a Pulitzer and that she's illegitimately withholding it?
I'm sorry if I have seemed to complain about "anti-white discrimination." As things stand now I actually don't think it is a problem, I was only arguing against what Malik seemed to be suggesting in his post that, I thought, asked us, in future, to consider the history of white against black oppression when we take a white man like Zimmerman to trail.
As for the Pulitzer committee, I didn't say they were all white. I just used them (the white members of the group) as an example of white people I might expect Morrison to feel trust toward as they have shown such goodwill toward her. No, the prize may not be a special reason to trust them but where is her reason to mistrust them?
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Malik -- thank you so much for considering my posts as they are intended -- an attempt at better understanding.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
As for the Pulitzer committee, I didn't say they were all white. I just used them (the white members of the group) . . .
Isn't it reassuring when you can just make the assumption that powerful people in your field will almost always have the same general background as you?
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
. . . as an example of white people I might expect Morrison to feel trust toward as they have shown such goodwill toward her. No, the prize may not be a special reason to trust them but where is her reason to mistrust them?
Is that how trust works? Not something to be earned, but something to be demanded as a default condition? I'm not as familiar with the specifics of Ms. Morrison's biography as you so I can't say whether there's any particular reason or past experience for why she doesn't automatically trust white people. I don't even know the context of the quote you're citing. I can, however, think of a lot of reasons why a typical, non-specific black American born into the Great Depression would find the words "trust me, I'm white!" unconvincing.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Toni Morrison has said many times that she would never trust any white person and that includes all of us even the white liberals she teaches college with and the whites who awarded her the Pulitzer prize.
Can you provide a citation for this?
Since she's a fairly famous person and you claim she's said this "many times", I'd imagine you would be able to provide a link to one of these instances...
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
Speaking generally, the White camel has not had as many straws placed on his/her back as has the Black camel.
Sure, but to follow your argument, you are claiming that a white person who racially abuses a black man (in the US) is a worse person than if that same white person racially abuses an American of Indian* origin (because we'd all agree that Indians, as a class, experience less racial prejudice than black people in the US).
And I just don't believe that in the slightest. I'll agree that the cumulative effect on black people is worse than the cumulative effect on Indians, which is worse than the cumulative effect on Italians, or Irish, or whoever, but I'm not prepared to accept that a racist is a better person because his animus is against Indians rather than black people.
*For the avoidance of doubt, Indian, from India - not Native American.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
A trial is the defendant vs the State, not the defendant vs the victim.
Technically, yes. But Americans (lay people, at least) tend to view it as defendant vs. victim. This is reinforced by TV and movies.
I would also say, technically, but not practically.
Why not practically? Suppose that Zimmerman was convicted. What does Martin 'win' as a result?
Nothing. His family may have won a warm moral glow of some kind.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Toni Morrison has said many times that she would never trust any white person
Can you provide a citation for this?
In this interview Ms. Morrison says quote:
"My father never trusted any white person at all, would not let them in his house, insurance people and so on. Luckily my mother was entirely different, she was always judging people one at a time. "
I don't think that statement is compatible with "Toni Morrison doesn't trust white people."
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Toni Morrison has said many times that she would never trust any white person and that includes all of us even the white liberals she teaches college with and the whites who awarded her the Pulitzer prize.
Can you provide a citation for this?
Since she's a fairly famous person and you claim she's said this "many times", I'd imagine you would be able to provide a link to one of these instances...
No, sorry, I don't have a link. I used to see her on Oprah fairly often in the 1990's and that's where she would say things about her father disliking whites and her own distrust of them.
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