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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Zimmerman acquitted
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
Defense attorney's first words in the trial:
quote:
Knock, knock. Who's there? George Zimmerman. George Zimmerman who? Congratulations, you're on the jury.
He then expressed astonishment that nobody laughed. I know lawyers don`t have to be likeable, but that doesn`t sound to me like someone taking the proceedings completely seriously. At the end of the trial, he even claimed that if the races had been reversed, a black Zimmerman would never had been charged.
Re: racial profiling. The records of Zimmerman's calls to police show that all the suspicious persons he reported to police were black.
Re: drugs and alcohol. Everyone in the whold world now knows that Trayvon Martin had used marijuana. Apparently not many people know that Zimmerman was on prescription medication for ADD. The defense did a great job of demonizing the victim before the trial, and the prosecution didn`t follow up on this or many other bits of evidence.
Re: Cracker. I believe Trayvon`s exact words were "creepy-ass cracker". Nothing to do with homosexuality, just a turn of phrase like dumb-ass or asshat, and cracker meaning he was white.
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Well, all the photos don't show him to be unusually muscular for someone of that age/height.
Have you looked at the photograph I linked to here?
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
Re: 2nd Amendment. It is now possible to get a concealed-carry permit in all fifty states. That means that unless one is in a location where guns are explicitly forbidden, there might be someone with a concealed gun around, like Zimmerman with his hidden holster. Some people in the USA will feel safer knowing that. Others, not so much.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
At the end of the trial, he even claimed that if the races had been reversed, a black Zimmerman would never had been charged.
Which is ironic because the only reason the Martin case became nationally infamous was the Sanford Police Department's initial decision that the fatal shooting didn't require charging anyone, or much of an investigation for that matter.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
AFAIK the 'Stand your Ground Law' was not mentioned at all at the trial. The media have seriously misrepresented many aspects of this case.
The article referenced by Ruth quotes the instructions from the judge, which featured SYG prominently.
I didn't realize the judge had mentioned it. AFAIK the defense never did. They based their arguments on classic self-defense theory.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
AFAIK the 'Stand your Ground Law' was not mentioned at all at the trial. The media have seriously misrepresented many aspects of this case.
The article referenced by Ruth quotes the instructions from the judge, which featured SYG prominently.
I didn't realize the judge had mentioned it. AFAIK the defense never did. They based their arguments on classic self-defense theory.
Moo
You say that as if the Stand Your Ground law is in some way distinct from the rest of Florida's self defense statutes. It isn't.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
decide to hunt down and shoot
Strong word choice there. I wouldn't want Zimmerman patrolling my block, as he seems like an idiot and a a bully, but even so, the facts are a little more complicated than you are acknowledging here.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Frankly, the upset about the identity of the victim in this case is a second order issue that is obscuring a far more fundamental first order issue. Why would it be more okay if a middle ages white man such as myself got shot?
As AA pointed out, the chances that someone like George Zimmerman would decide to hunt down and shoot a middle aged white man are quite remote.
True. But I still think the question of why he tracked a particular person is still less fundamental than why he was tracking anybody and why he was armed REGARDLESS of whether he was intending to use it or not.
The whole notion of a neighbourhood patrol disturbs me to begin with.
[ 16. July 2013, 20:54: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
. . . no racial profiling . . .
I'm not sure how you can be so definitive about that. There was something about Martin that made Zimmerman erroneously decide he was a criminal. Given the local (national really) history of assuming that all young black men are criminals, why isn't that at least a possibility?
When Zimmermann first notified the dispatcher, he said that Martin appeared to be loitering aimlessly. It was raining, and most people do not like to loiter in the rain. There had been many burglaries in the neighborhood; burglars frequently loiter to decide what would be a good prospect.
When the dispatcher asked Zimmermann whether the suspect was white, black, or Hispanic, Zimmermann replied, "I'm not sure. He looks black."
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
One more visit to the "sweet child" meme:
Martin was tall and well-developed physically. I hold no opinions as to his possible "sweetness;" I personally don't know any 17-y.o. boys I'd use that adjective on. He was, nevertheless, both legally and cognitively a child. The human brain doesn't fully mature until about age 25.
I don't know how many 17-y.o. boys you know, but the few I know are largely insufferably cock-sure and convinced of their own invincibility.
Trayvon Martin was in fact a child, and his alleged willingness to jump a stranger (apparently without considering the possibility that the stranger might be armed) testifies to a juvenile lack of caution and immature judgment.
AFAICS, Trayvon Martin is dead at least in part because he was still a child.
Was he also big and potentially threatening physically? Sure, and that, wedded to his immaturity, got him shot.
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
Incidentally, California has a 'stand your ground' law.
In some ways it goes farther than the Florida law. quote:
The instructions say a person under attack is even entitled, "if reasonably necessary, to pursue an assailant until the danger of death or great bodily injury has passed. This is so even if safety could have been achieved by retreating."
.
Moo
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Antisocial Alto
Shipmate
# 13810
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
When the dispatcher asked Zimmermann whether the suspect was white, black, or Hispanic, Zimmermann replied, "I'm not sure. He looks black."
Moo
Doesn't that prove the point that Zimmerman believed he was black?
Posts: 601 | From: United States | Registered: Jun 2008
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
Do the words "I'm not sure" mean something different where you come from?
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Antisocial Alto
Shipmate
# 13810
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Posted
No, but when asked for the guy's race Zimmerman named a specific race. To me that "I'm not sure" sounds like "I'm not certain, but..." rather than "I have absolutely no idea".
Obviously he had some level of belief that Martin was black or he wouldn't have said so to the dispatcher.
Posts: 601 | From: United States | Registered: Jun 2008
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Antisocial Alto:
No, but when asked for the guy's race Zimmerman named a specific race. To me that "I'm not sure" sounds like "I'm not certain, but..." rather than "I have absolutely no idea".
Obviously he had some level of belief that Martin was black or he wouldn't have said so to the dispatcher.
Zimmermann did not say anything about race until the dispatcher asked the question, mentioning white, black, or Hispanic. At that point Zimmermann decided he appeared more like a black than a white or Hispanic. It's possible he hadn't thought about the matter until the dispatcher asked.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Porridge, I agree with your last post.
As to Zimmerman correctly identifying Martin as black, it's a totally pointless argument. What's relevant is the issue of Zimmerman regularly reporting black people. I'm going to assume that they were in fact black and that Zimmerman doesn't suffer from some profound visual defect.
The significance of that depends on an implicit assumption that there were other people of other colours wandering around that Zimmerman could have reported and didn't.
I'm not commenting on the validity of that assumption, I'm pointing out explicitly that it's an assumption. No one has, as far as I'm aware, led any evidence about the relative propensity of people of different races to be wandering around that neighbourhood in a manner that could be construed, rightly or wrongly, as questionable. For all I know the white youths around there had places to go that meant they didn't wander around. For all I know that's complete bullshit and Zimmerman was selective in his reporting.
[ 16. July 2013, 21:36: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Moo: It was raining, and most people do not like to loiter in the rain.
According to my moral standards, this doesn't justify following someone with a gun.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
One more visit to the "sweet child" meme:
Martin was tall and well-developed physically. I hold no opinions as to his possible "sweetness;" I personally don't know any 17-y.o. boys I'd use that adjective on. He was, nevertheless, both legally and cognitively a child. The human brain doesn't fully mature until about age 25.
I don't know how many 17-y.o. boys you know, but the few I know are largely insufferably cock-sure and convinced of their own invincibility.
Trayvon Martin was in fact a child, and his alleged willingness to jump a stranger (apparently without considering the possibility that the stranger might be armed) testifies to a juvenile lack of caution and immature judgment.
AFAICS, Trayvon Martin is dead at least in part because he was still a child.
Was he also big and potentially threatening physically? Sure, and that, wedded to his immaturity, got him shot.
Eugene Robinson had thoughts along a similar line in yesterday's Washington Post.
quote:
If anyone wonders why African Americans feel so passionately about this case, it’s because we know that our 17-year-old sons are boys, not men. It’s because we know their adolescent bravura is just that — an imitation of manhood, not the real thing.
We know how frightened our sons would be, walking home alone on a rainy night and realizing they were being followed. We know how torn they would be between a child’s fear and a child’s immature idea of manly behavior. We know how they would struggle to decide the right course of action, flight or fight.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Moo: It was raining, and most people do not like to loiter in the rain.
According to my moral standards, this doesn't justify following someone with a gun.
No, but it does justify calling the police so they could come to investigate. Zimmermann followed Martin so he could tell the police where he was.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Okay, so the 17 year old child (thanks for the correction) was intimidating, very strong and big, such that a small weak man (in comparison) would only follow and accost him if he had a gun?
IIRC, Zimmerman is a couple of stone heavier than Martin was; he was shorter but not necessarily smaller. And he would not have known that the kid was an experienced fighter.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna
And how does Martin see Zimmerman's gun when supposedly on top of Zimmerman, if the gun is in the small of his back, inside his pants, in a black holster?
What is your source of information about the location and color of Zimmermann's holster?
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Well, all the photos don't show him to be unusually muscular for someone of that age/height.
Have you looked at the photograph I linked to here?
Moo
Yes that was the photo I was referring to - and no, he isn't unusually muscular for someone of that age.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Moo: Zimmermann followed Martin so he could tell the police where he was.
No, Zimmerman told the police where Martin was, whereupon the police told Zimmerman not to follow Martin.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
I actually saw it while watching trial coverage, but this is a detailed explanation with lots of pictures:
The Zimmerman Draw
And don`t forget that Zimmerman claimed that at this point, Martin was straddling him with his knees up in Zimmerman`s armpits.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
Here is the dialog between Zimmermann and the dispatcher.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Moo: Zimmermann followed Martin so he could tell the police where he was.
No, Zimmerman told the police where Martin was, whereupon the police told Zimmerman not to follow Martin.
You're talking about different points of time, basically. It's clear from the phone call that Martin wasn't just standing still for the next 5 or 10 minutes while the police came. Rightly or wrongly, Zimmerman wanted to be up to date.
And the police said he didn't need to do that. They didn't order him not to.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by BWSmith:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I see the problem, BWSmith. We're not on the same planet. You're on one where there is no racism, and all the effects of slavery, Jim Crow, and other racist set-ups have been entirely ameliorated. Unfortunately I'm on this other one, where they have not.
Your skills of persuasion are a thing of legend.
You think ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) I was trying to pursuade YOU of ANYTHING?
Hosting
This is a breach of C4 - if you are going to get personal, take it to hell. I should no tbe having to say this again.
/Hosting
Doublethink
Purgatory Host
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
orfeo: And the police said he didn't need to do that. They didn't order him not to.
In any case, Zimmerman following Martin while he was armed makes him the aggressor to me.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
orfeo: And the police said he didn't need to do that. They didn't order him not to.
In any case, Zimmerman following Martin while he was armed makes him the aggressor to me.
Why 'while he was armed'?
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
orfeo: Why 'while he was armed'?
'He' is Zimmerman here. To me personally, following someone first by car and by foot with a loaded gun, is an aggressive move. I know, because both things have happened to me.
We'll never know exactly what happened here, but one thing I do know: Zimmerman started it.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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ldjjd
Shipmate
# 17390
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Posted
Not only the aggressor.
In the eyes of a typical 17 year old youth these days, a quite possible sexual predator, and in the eyes of a 17 year old African American youth, either a potential predator or hate crime perpretator. In either case, someone who is the lowest of the low. I'm shocked that Zimmerman was so blinded by his zeal that he failed to realize this.
By the way, I find the holster article very interesting. Was this matter raised at trial? If not, why not?
Posts: 294 | Registered: Oct 2012
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
You're talking about different points of time, basically. It's clear from the phone call that Martin wasn't just standing still for the next 5 or 10 minutes while the police came. Rightly or wrongly, Zimmerman wanted to be up to date.
Given that Trayvon Martin had not engaged in any criminal act that evening, I think we can safely say "wrongly" at this point.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
orfeo: Why 'while he was armed'?
'He' is Zimmerman here. To me personally, following someone first by car and by foot with a loaded gun, is an aggressive move. I know, because both things have happened to me.
We'll never know exactly what happened here, but one thing I do know: Zimmerman started it.
The problem I have with this is the lack of evidence about Zimmerman's intentions regarding the gun. Especially in the USA where, more's the pity, carrying a gun is a fairly unremarkable thing. In other countries, someone might only carry a gun on a particular journey because they have some plans to use it on that journey. In the USA you can't say that. People just carry guns around.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Dave W.: Really? What's just the right frequency, would you say?
I'm sorry, but I don't think this is something you should give a sarcastic answer to. Being mugged and having a gun pointed at your head by a drug-crazed guy is a terrible, terrible thing. I hope it will never happen to you.
Well I hope so too, but in my view your unfortunate experiences only serve to underline the ridiculousness of your expressed gladness at not living in the US. You say you’re contrasting the situation with that of your native home – but you actually live in Brazil, where apparently you've encountered armed, drug-crazed muggers numerous times, and you’re far more likely to be murdered than in either the US or the Netherlands and (I suspect) also less likely to enjoy any kind of posthumous justice.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I have worked with teenagers in the Netherlands that have grave social and behavioural problems. Most of them have been in touch with the juridical mill already. Imagine that one of them would be followed by a stranger in a car like this. I don't have to guess very hard to know what the gut reaction of most of them will be: "I'm going to punch this guy in the face."
That isn't right, and it isn't justifiable. But I'd also hope that it wouldn't lead to one of these teenagers' death. Society should have better ways of dealing with people with agression problems.
Yes, this kind of thug calculus is something that typically arises in people (usually men) with no power. It's not so far away, in fact, from the domestic violence that we have been discussing in another thread, and we see it in young urban men strutting around like bantam cocks accusing each other of "dissing" them.
And I would agree that we as a society (or a group of societies) are not very good at preventing young men from engaging in thuggery.
But what about the actual victim in your scenario - the innocent stranger who got punched in the face? It's a bit much to expect the victim of an unprovoked assault to play by the Marquess of Queensberry's rules.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
orfeo: Why 'while he was armed'?
'He' is Zimmerman here. To me personally, following someone first by car and by foot with a loaded gun, is an aggressive move. I know, because both things have happened to me.
We'll never know exactly what happened here, but one thing I do know: Zimmerman started it.
The problem I have with this is the lack of evidence about Zimmerman's intentions regarding the gun. Especially in the USA where, more's the pity, carrying a gun is a fairly unremarkable thing. In other countries, someone might only carry a gun on a particular journey because they have some plans to use it on that journey. In the USA you can't say that. People just carry guns around.
I think this aspect of it makes it a very difficult case for me to assess. The idea of a neighbourhood watch person being armed strikes me as very bizarre, and actually frightening (and dangerous); plus, the idea of someone concluding a fight by shooting someone just seems criminal. Obviously to many US citizens both seem normal and indeed desirable. So it's hard to filter this stuff out of it.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think this aspect of it makes it a very difficult case for me to assess. The idea of a neighbourhood watch person being armed strikes me as very bizarre, and actually frightening (and dangerous);
Zimmerman was not on a neighborhood watch patrol at the time. He was driving to the store to buy groceries.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
Not only the aggressor.
In the eyes of a typical 17 year old youth these days, a quite possible sexual predator, and in the eyes of a 17 year old African American youth, either a potential predator or hate crime perpretator. In either case, someone who is the lowest of the low. I'm shocked that Zimmerman was so blinded by his zeal that he failed to realize this.
By the way, I find the holster article very interesting. Was this matter raised at trial? If not, why not?
I was thinking along similar lines. There's a range of possibilities here, but we do have to consider the phone call Martin made to his girlfriend that he was thinking of having a fight.
A possibility, and one that's very consistent with the phone call, is that Martin thought Zimmerman was gay and decided to engage in the old sport of poofter-bashing, or whatever it's called in Florida. Another is that he thought that Zimmerman was a predator, got scared and decided to get in first. A problem with this is that any stalking was happening in a public street and within a short distance of Martin's home - he could have gone there. There are other possibilities between these.
As for the holster argument: I don't know what the ethical rules are in Florida, nor the relevant laws of evidence, but before a prosecutor made a submission along those lines to a jury here, Canada, NZ or the UK, it would have been necessary to have put all the detail to Zimmerman in cross-examination and given him the opportunity to deal with it . Even then, any submission could only have been within the confines of Zimmerman's answers (for the technically minded, it's the rule in Browne v Dun).
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
But what about the actual victim in your scenario - the innocent stranger who got punched in the face? It's a bit much to expect the victim of an unprovoked assault to play by the Marquess of Queensberry's rules.
Apparently he was utterly in the wrong for following someone and deserved everything he got.
It would appear that some people here think that no ordinary citizen should ever attempt to stop a crime, and if they do take that course of action they have no right to defend themselves should the suspect become aggressive?
I once got into a confrontation with some hoodlum because I'd seen him vandalising a train, followed him off it and reported his crime to the booking office at the station. He then rounded on me outside the station, acting in a very threatening manner and shouting that I should have just minded my own business. It didn't escalate because the kid was all talk and no action, but if it had would I have been within my rights to defend myself, or would I have been the aggressor for following him off the train? And if defending myself would have been OK, then if it had been in a place where carrying a gun was legal and I had one on me, would I have been within my rights to use it to defend myself?
I think I would. And the galling thing is that some of you seem to be agreeing with the punk that I should have just minded my own business and looked the other way. In fact, some seem to be going so far as to say I should be legally obliged to look the other way.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It would appear that some people here think that no ordinary citizen should ever attempt to stop a crime, and if they do take that course of action they have no right to defend themselves should the suspect become aggressive?
What crime was Zimmerman stopping? Use small words because I'm stupid.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
and cracker meaning he was white.
Yes, in the same way that "nigger" means the person being described is black.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
What crime was Zimmerman stopping? Use small words because I'm stupid.
In point of fact? None. Martin was not actually engaged in any illegal activity.
Zimmerman thought he was though, and was trying to do what he could to keep tabs on him so that the police would know where to go when they turned up. I don't personally think that's wrong, so long as he didn't actually confront Martin.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It's correct that keeping tabs on someone isn't illegal. I would say it's risky, especially if you're not a cop. It can easily be construed by the person being kept tabs on as harassment, which can lead to who knows what, as in this case it did. But I don't think Zimmerman did anything illegal, well, in US law, at any rate, if his story is correct. And it's the only story we have, as the other guy who might tell his story, is dead.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I would say it's risky, especially if you're not a cop.
Very risky, yes. Foolhardy, even. But that doesn't negate your right to defend yourself should the risk become a clear and present danger, as some here seem to be suggesting.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
All I can say is that my male relatives have been subjected to suspicion by police and citizenry alike, sometimes to the point of violence, for simply being muscular black men. Everyone in my family is university educated with very successful careers and no one has a criminal record.
The Trayvon Martin story, legal issues aside, is simply a very scary one for anyone with a black male loved one. Because whether or not Zimmerman was found guilty, Trayvon is dead. It can happen (and does happen) to any black man in America.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I would say it's risky, especially if you're not a cop.
Very risky, yes. Foolhardy, even. But that doesn't negate your right to defend yourself should the risk become a clear and present danger, as some here seem to be suggesting.
I suppose one solution is for black kids to go armed, then if someone pulls a gun on them, in the middle of a fight, they have a chance to pull theirs faster. Isn't that the logic of carrying guns?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I suppose one solution is for black kids to go armed, then if someone pulls a gun on them, in the middle of a fight, they have a chance to pull theirs faster. Isn't that the logic of carrying guns?
This.
It's this "logic" which is behind the NRA and gun manufacturers' efforts to turn the US into an armed camp. It's this logic which has me thinking seriously about orfeo's suggestion of a movement supporting Second Amendment reform.
Whatever happened to the "militia' in the Second Amendment? Whatever happened to the "well-regulated" part?
It seems clear to this ordinary citizen that the intent of the Founders in formulating this clause was to provide for the general defense of citizens in the event of armed conflict from without (they had, after all, just finished fighting with the British), without having to create a standing army (which a brand-new government was hard-pressed to afford).
It surely wasn't so that we could practically ensure armed conflict* among ourselves by arming every crackpot, wingnut, conspiracy theorist, and potentially-racist-motivated self-appointed public guardian in the country.
We now HAVE a standing army. We now HAVE police forces. (Yes, some of these are also threats to citizens of color, but not all.) We make the jobs of the latter far more dangerous and difficult with these #@%*! laws that virtually guarantee that every Tom, Dick, and Harry turns into an individual, untrained, vigilante criminal justice system which targets The Other.
* I would submit that people living in various parts of Chicago (for one example -- there are others) are, in fact, living in war zones.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Marvin the Martian: It would appear that some people here think that no ordinary citizen should ever attempt to stop a crime
I think that no ordinary citizen should ever attempt to stop a crime by following a suspect with a gun. If you think you need a gun for stopping this crime, then it is something you should leave to the professionals.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
The Trayvon Martin story, legal issues aside, is simply a very scary one for anyone with a black male loved one. Because whether or not Zimmerman was found guilty, Trayvon is dead. It can happen (and does happen) to any black man in America.
Given US gun laws, it can happen (and does) to anyone in America. But that's almost a dead horse issue, and a tangent in any event.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Ten years ago I visited San Francisco. I was part of a Cavalier Spaniel website and was invited to visit an online friend I'd made.
They lived in a fabulous place with a pool and huge grounds. They organised a 'doggy party' for us which was great fun.
The topic of race came up as I was staying in a Super 8 downtown and they couldn't believe I would think of staying in such an area. I said I live in such an area and that, where I live, this was quite normal (to have many races living side by side)
Then they were laughing that they had called the police the day before because a black man walked past their house. The police turned up quickly to arrest him, but he turned out to be the new postman.
Everyone there seemed to think calling the police was exactly the right thing to do.
All the bloke did was to pass their house!
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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