Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I would say it's risky, especially if you're not a cop.

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Very risky, yes. Foolhardy, even. But that doesn't negate your right to defend yourself should the risk become a clear and present danger, as some here seem to be suggesting.

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I suppose one solution is for black kids to go armed, then if someone pulls a gun on them, in the middle of a fight, they have a chance to pull theirs faster. Isn't that the logic of carrying guns?

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

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Marvin the Martian: It would appear that some people here think that no ordinary citizen should ever attempt to stop a crime

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I think that no ordinary citizen should ever attempt to stop a crime by following a suspect with a gun. If you think you need a gun for stopping this crime, then it is something you should leave to the professionals.

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Posted                       

quote:

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It would appear that some people here think that no ordinary citizen should ever attempt to stop a crime...

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I would say it's risky, especially if you're not a cop.

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Very risky, yes. Foolhardy, even. But that doesn't negate your right to defend yourself should the risk become a clear and present danger, as some here seem to be suggesting.

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I suppose one solution is for black kids to go armed, then if someone pulls a gun on them, in the middle of a fight, they have a chance to pull theirs faster. Isn't that the logic of carrying guns?

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A better solution would be to not start a fight in the first place. Someone's following you? OK, be wary and alert, and try to get to a safe place. Don't turn around and punch them in the face, especially if you're in a country where they might very well be carrying a gun and, if so, are legally permitted to use it in self-defence.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Porridge:
Whatever happened to the "militia' in the Second Amendment? Whatever happened to the "well-regulated" part?

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I don't know what you were like when you were 17, but I would have laughed in your face.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Marvin the Martian: For now, how about you let me know whether you do indeed think that no ordinary citizen should ever attempt to stop a crime.

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Posted                       

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Originally posted by ldjjd:
In the eyes of a typical 17 year old youth these days, a quite possible sexual predator, and in the eyes of a 17 year old African American youth, either a potential predator or hate crime perpretator.

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quote:

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Originally posted by seekingsister
All I can say is that my male relatives have been subjected to suspicion by police and citizenry alike, sometimes to the point of violence, for simply being muscular black men.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I don't know what you were like when you were 17, but I would have laughed in your face.

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I got in a few fights when I was that age, sure. But I never started any - I never threw the first punch. And that's the factor that makes all the difference in this discussion, ISTM.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by seekingsister:
All I can say is that my male relatives have been subjected to suspicion by police and citizenry alike, sometimes to the point of violence, for simply being muscular black men. Everyone in my family is university educated with very successful careers and no one has a criminal record.

The Trayvon Martin story, legal issues aside, is simply a very scary one for anyone with a black male loved one. Because whether or not Zimmerman was found guilty, Trayvon is dead. It can happen (and does happen) to any black man in America.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yes, but you don't really think that if I start a fight, I should be killed, do you? However, we are now talking about gun control, I suppose,

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quote:

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so I go back to my earlier point, why should Trayvon not have a gun also?

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight:

quote:

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Originally posted by seekingsister:
All I can say is that my male relatives have been subjected to suspicion by police and citizenry alike, sometimes to the point of violence, for simply being muscular black men. Everyone in my family is university educated with very successful careers and no one has a criminal record.

The Trayvon Martin story, legal issues aside, is simply a very scary one for anyone with a black male loved one. Because whether or not Zimmerman was found guilty, Trayvon is dead. It can happen (and does happen) to any black man in America.

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My male relative (son) has been stopped by the police and questioned dozens of time. When we lived in the country it was almost every time he tried to go for a walk. After one of these incidents he told me he had noticed a woman watching him from a certain house shortly before the police came so I drove over to politely ask that her, "Why?" It seems that when my son walked by, on the road, in his shorts and running shoes, empty handed -- her dog had barked more than usual. She also told me that a few years earlier she had spotted some men taking lumber from a building site, called the police and stopped a theft. Clearly, a proud crime stopper had been born that day.


One day, when he was sixteen and driving to baseball practice, another would-be policeman followed him in his car, motioning him to pull over, pulling up beside him and grinning. My son turned around and drove home where the man followed him. My son was ashen faced with fear. The driver told a neighbor he had "caught" my son driving without a license. The neighbor said, "He has a license, he's sixteen." The follower said, "Well he doesn't look that old," and drove off.

My white son has been arrested and jailed for loitering. He has been pulled over and arrested for drunk driving (deserved.)He has foolishly run from the police and warning shots were fired. He has been beaten up by gangs and mugged for his wallet -- no one ever caught or charged. Like your relatives he is also college educated, clean cut and conservatively dressed, but not muscular at all. He does now have a record.

I'm not saying racial profiling doesn't exist but I think lots of African Americans are under the impression that white people are given a pass, that every time a policeman, or neighborhood watcher looks at them it's because of their skin color. Police have to use their common sense. Statistics and experience tell them that young men are more likely to commit crimes than old ladies with canes. So, like it or not, they are going to be noticed more by the police.

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by seekingsister:
Your attitude is part of the problem.

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quote:

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Your kid is 100% irrelevant.

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quote:

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If people in privileged groups can't get over the fact that not everything is about them, we're never going to resolve these issues.

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by Moo:
There is no evidence that Martin thought Zimmermann might be a sexual predator. The idea has arisen because of a misinterpretation of what Martin said on the phone to his girlfriend.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Moo:
It is true that black men are frequently mistreated in this way. It is outrageous that this should be the case.

However, I don't think that is what was going on in this case. First, Zimmermann was not certain of Martin's race at the beginning. Secondly, Martin was loitering on a rainy night in a neighborhood where there had been recent break-ins and home invasions. I think that a person of any race would have become an object of suspicion under the circumstances.

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quote:

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Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic?

Zimmerman: He looks black.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I don't know what you were like when you were 17, but I would have laughed in your face.

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I got in a few fights when I was that age, sure. But I never started any - I never threw the first punch. And that's the factor that makes all the difference in this discussion, ISTM.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

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Originally posted by seekingsister:
Your attitude is part of the problem.

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Seems to me that if you're going to say stuff like that, you probably shouldn't go on to say blatantly inflammatory stuff like

quote:

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Your kid is 100% irrelevant.

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Especially when you then go on to say

quote:

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If people in privileged groups can't get over the fact that not everything is about them, we're never going to resolve these issues.

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I mean, how you can berate anyone for thinking it's all about them immediately after saying any problems other than the ones you care about are irrelevant is staggering.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:

quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I don't know what you were like when you were 17, but I would have laughed in your face.

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I got in a few fights when I was that age, sure. But I never started any - I never threw the first punch. And that's the factor that makes all the difference in this discussion, ISTM.

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While I get the point of the 17 year olds have poor judgment about when to walk away angle of the story, am I the only one who looks at people blankly and answers "no" when asked if I have ever been in a physical fight? That includes two moments when I found myself sitting on the sideline with one or two other teammates while the rest of the team ran out for a big brawl in the middle of heated sporting events. Now in that time, I was only confronted by a creepy neighborhood watch type looking to start something once, and I was asking for that one far more than Martin was (nothing criminal, I was just being a pain in his ass and he decided the best way to stop it was to chase me down and threaten to smash my face in- not fun). So I get that some people are pushed harder than I was. Just to say that this whole societal expectation that at some point a boy will inevitably get into a fight is completely odd to me.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by seekingsister:

I don't mean to insult that poster but this is a very common occurrence. A minority says "there is systematic prejudice against my group" which is backed by facts, and a member of the majority says "well let me tell you what happened to ME once." It's bizarre. It's not a problem competition.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
All of these are possible, given the information I have. 1 is an example of racial prejudice, 2 and 3 are related to the racial separation in the US, but do not involve prejudice.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

quote:

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Originally posted by seekingsister:

I don't mean to insult that poster but this is a very common occurrence. A minority says "there is systematic prejudice against my group" which is backed by facts, and a member of the majority says "well let me tell you what happened to ME once." It's bizarre. It's not a problem competition.

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The converse is that just because there is a well-established prejudice against black people (and if you think that young black men have the same experience interacting with law enforcement as young white men, you are wrong), it does not mean that each and every interaction of a black man with law enforcement involves prejudice.

Let's go back to Zimmerman. He had previously called the cops on suspicious-looking black youths, and a couple of young black men had recently been arrested for burglary in the vicinity. Now he sees Trayvon Martin - another young black man - and calls the police.

Possible explanations:

1. Zimmerman has a prejudice against black people.

2. All the burglary suspects have been young black men, so Zimmerman thinks Martin might be one of them. This isn't prejudice, it's statistics. If we're dealing with a group of acquaintances, and we know that a random two or three are black, in America it's likely that the others are black, too. The US isn't exactly racially integrated.

3. The only people ever walking around Zimmerman's neighborhoods are black. There are plenty of places where most people just don't walk, for any reason.

All of these are possible, given the information I have. 1 is an example of racial prejudice, 2 and 3 are related to the racial separation in the US, but do not involve prejudice.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

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Originally posted by seekingsister:
Your attitude is part of the problem.

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Seems to me that if you're going to say stuff like that, you probably shouldn't go on to say blatantly inflammatory stuff like

quote:

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Your kid is 100% irrelevant.

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Especially when you then go on to say

quote:

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If people in privileged groups can't get over the fact that not everything is about them, we're never going to resolve these issues.

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I mean, how you can berate anyone for thinking it's all about them immediately after saying any problems other than the ones you care about are irrelevant is staggering.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by seekingsister:
I must admit I find it fascinating how much energy some people put into finding any answer other than racism to certain events.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I notice again 'loitering on a rainy night', what the fuck, have you ever been a kid? Of course, kids loiter on rainy nights, they are the best nights to loiter on.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

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Originally posted by seekingsister:
I must admit I find it fascinating how much energy some people put into finding any answer other than racism to certain events.

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It's no worse than insisting that racism has to have been at the heart of certain events without looking at the facts.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by seekingsister:

quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

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Originally posted by seekingsister:
I must admit I find it fascinating how much energy some people put into finding any answer other than racism to certain events.

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It's no worse than insisting that racism has to have been at the heart of certain events without looking at the facts.

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Of course it's worse. Members of the majority group saying minorities are exaggerating claims of abuse and discrimination? In your view, that is as bad as black people believing themselves to be the victims of frequent racism?

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by seekingsister:
Of course it's worse. Members of the majority group saying minorities are exaggerating claims of abuse and discrimination? In your view, that is as bad as black people believing themselves to be the victims of frequent racism?

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

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Originally posted by seekingsister:
Of course it's worse. Members of the majority group saying minorities are exaggerating claims of abuse and discrimination? In your view, that is as bad as black people believing themselves to be the victims of frequent racism?

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So what, the second anybody says that any event was racist that makes it True and nobody else can ever argue against them?

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
... 2. All the burglary suspects have been young black men, so Zimmerman thinks Martin might be one of them. This isn't prejudice, it's statistics. ... The US isn't exactly racially integrated. ... 2 and 3 are related to the racial separation in the US, but do not involve prejudice.

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I don`t know what definition of prejudice you are using, but what you have described in 2 is exactly what racial profiling is. In the USA, it is unconstitutional for law enforcement to use only race as probable cause to detain or investigate someone. Recently, the Maricopa County Sherriff`s Office was slammed down because their officers deliberately followed vehicles with Hispanic drivers and passengers to check for immigration violations. The court specifically said that in an area where there are many citizens of Hispanic appearance (and regardless of how many Hispanics violate immigration laws), the police do not have probable cause to question a particular individual about their immigration status solely on the basis of being Hispanic in Arizona. The same applies to the ``crime`` of driving while black or travelling by air while Muslim.

In his recent speech to the NAACP, Attorney General Eric Holder related an anecdote about being stopped by the police. It happened in Georgetown. He was running because he was late for a movie. He was a federal prosecutor at the time. I have no doubt that if he had said something like, "Do you have any idea who I am?", he`d probably be dead like Trayvon Martin.

The only statistic that should matter is that the vast majority of black Americans are law-abiding citizens, as are American Muslims, Sikhs, Asians, Latinos and white folks. An individual`s right to be presumed innocent and to be free from harassment is not altered by statistics about other people. Assuming someone is up to no good because they`re the wrong race in the wrong place is prejudice.

--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
Did people just skim over Twilight's post? That wasn't 'one' counter-example. That was setting out a continued history of what kept happening.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
Did people just skim over Twilight's post? That wasn't 'one' counter-example. That was setting out a continued history of what kept happening.

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
No. I think seekingsister is saying that both are wrong: ascribing all injustice to racism and ascribing no injustice to racism.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Crœsos:

quote:

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Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
No. I think seekingsister is saying that both are wrong: ascribing all injustice to racism and ascribing no injustice to racism.

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Is any ascribing all injustice to racism? Most are discussing one particular incident, the killing of Trayvon Martin by George Zimmerman.

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quote:

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I must admit I find it fascinating how much energy some people put into finding any answer other than racism to certain events. Trayvon notwithstanding, anytime something happens pointing towards prejudice, an army of pundits and commenters will shout until blue in the face that racism isn't relevant.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I don't know what you were like when you were 17, but I would have laughed in your face.

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I got in a few fights when I was that age, sure. But I never started any - I never threw the first punch. And that's the factor that makes all the difference in this discussion, ISTM.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by seekingsister:
I don't mean to insult that poster but this is a very common occurrence. A minority says "there is systematic prejudice against my group" which is backed by facts, and a member of the majority says "well let me tell you what happened to ME once." It's bizarre. It's not a problem competition.

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This.

quote:

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Originally posted by seekingsister:
I must admit I find it fascinating how much energy some people put into finding any answer other than racism to certain events. Trayvon notwithstanding, anytime something happens pointing towards prejudice, an army of pundits and commenters will shout until blue in the face that racism isn't relevant. The history of America is intimately wrapped up and entwined with anti-black racism.

And that's why we can't talk reasonably about this topic. Because one side wants to be heard, and the other side refuses to listen, or responds immediately with "oh you're just exaggerating."

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Double

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

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Originally posted by seekingsister:
Of course it's worse. Members of the majority group saying minorities are exaggerating claims of abuse and discrimination? In your view, that is as bad as black people believing themselves to be the victims of frequent racism?

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So what, the second anybody says that any event was racist that makes it True and nobody else can ever argue against them?

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by mousethief:
I don't see why. SYG laws allow you to throw the first punch (or, better, bullet) if you feel threatened.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

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Originally posted by mousethief:
I don't see why. SYG laws allow you to throw the first punch (or, better, bullet) if you feel threatened.

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Really? I thought it was all about not requiring people to run away if attacked (and thus negating any "you could have run away" gambit by the prosecution in any subsequent trial), rather than allowing people to preemptively escalate a situation.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Gwai:

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
Did people just skim over Twilight's post? That wasn't 'one' counter-example. That was setting out a continued history of what kept happening.

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We cannot know what it means out of context. There could be all kinds of reasons that person was being harassed that most white teenagers as a group are not. In other words, as a stand alone story, it has all the classic issues of an anecdote.

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quote:

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All I can say is that my male relatives have been subjected to suspicion by police and citizenry alike,

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:

quote:

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Originally posted by Crœsos:

quote:

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Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
No. I think seekingsister is saying that both are wrong: ascribing all injustice to racism and ascribing no injustice to racism.

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Is any ascribing all injustice to racism? Most are discussing one particular incident, the killing of Trayvon Martin by George Zimmerman.

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seekingsister said:

quote:

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I must admit I find it fascinating how much energy some people put into finding any answer other than racism to certain events. Trayvon notwithstanding, anytime something happens pointing towards prejudice, an army of pundits and commenters will shout until blue in the face that racism isn't relevant.

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MtM then pointed out that some people will take the opposite stance.

It was those two positions, rather than the thread as a whole that I was commenting on.

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Seekingsister is also not talking about "all injustice", just cases where "something happens pointing towards prejudice". You then argue that it's wrong to suspect prejudice in cases where there's reason to suspect prejudice.

--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto

Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Crœsos:

quote:

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Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:

quote:

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Originally posted by Crœsos:

quote:

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Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
No. I think seekingsister is saying that both are wrong: ascribing all injustice to racism and ascribing no injustice to racism.

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Is any ascribing all injustice to racism? Most are discussing one particular incident, the killing of Trayvon Martin by George Zimmerman.

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seekingsister said:

quote:

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I must admit I find it fascinating how much energy some people put into finding any answer other than racism to certain events. Trayvon notwithstanding, anytime something happens pointing towards prejudice, an army of pundits and commenters will shout until blue in the face that racism isn't relevant.

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MtM then pointed out that some people will take the opposite stance.

It was those two positions, rather than the thread as a whole that I was commenting on.

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Seekingsister is also not talking about "all injustice", just cases where "something happens pointing towards prejudice". You then argue that it's wrong to suspect prejudice in cases where there's reason to suspect prejudice.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Crœsos:

quote:

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Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:

quote:

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Originally posted by Crœsos:

quote:

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Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
No. I think seekingsister is saying that both are wrong: ascribing all injustice to racism and ascribing no injustice to racism.

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Is any ascribing all injustice to racism? Most are discussing one particular incident, the killing of Trayvon Martin by George Zimmerman.

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seekingsister said:

quote:

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I must admit I find it fascinating how much energy some people put into finding any answer other than racism to certain events. Trayvon notwithstanding, anytime something happens pointing towards prejudice, an army of pundits and commenters will shout until blue in the face that racism isn't relevant.

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MtM then pointed out that some people will take the opposite stance.

It was those two positions, rather than the thread as a whole that I was commenting on.

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Seekingsister is also not talking about "all injustice", just cases where "something happens pointing towards prejudice". You then argue that it's wrong to suspect prejudice in cases where there's reason to suspect prejudice.

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