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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Kerygmania: Paul and Women
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Acts has a two-part link story between the Gospels and the Church. First in chapter 1 Jesus recaps his direction to the apostles - wait till the Spirit comes in power and then take the Good News to Jerusalem and to all the ends of the Earth, Then in Chapter 2 the Spirit does come and Peter explains the plot of the story to the gathered people of Jerusalem - God says I will pour out my spirit in the last days on both men and women and your sons and daughters will both prophesy. Reminiscent of "male and female created he them". The New Creation is for both men and women who both prophesy, both are filled with the spirit and both participate in Christ's heavenly priesthood.
That's Lukes explanation for the whole existence of the church. There is no hidden agenda in favour of women's ministry. Its on the published agenda, right there on the first or second page.
Ho-lee shit, Ken! I can't believe I missed that!
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by flickeringflame:
I think Epictetus qualifies. His dates are ca 50 AD to 120 AD. He said he was sad that women (girls) could have been good scholars and students of philosophy but unfortunately at the age of 14 or so saw that all that mattered was their marriageability. I think that's quite liberal, if we have to talk two thousand years ago!
Welcome to the Ship posts, flickeringflame!
What would Epictetus' response have been, do you think? Would he have counselled that women put up with society's expectations, or would he have suggested striving to change? I gather a saying attributed to him is "All philosophy lies in two words: sustain or abstain."
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SteveTom
Contributing Editor
# 23
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by flickeringflame:
I think Epictetus qualifies. His dates are ca 50 AD to 120 AD. He said he was sad that women (girls) could have been good scholars and students of philosophy but unfortunately at the age of 14 or so saw that all that mattered was their marriageability. I think that's quite liberal, if we have to talk two thousand years ago!
Hello flickeringflame. I agree that that is liberal for the ancient world, but compared to someone who not only wanted to teach women but did so, and not only taught them but made them teachers and worked alongside them as teachers - that hardly makes Epictetus the more liberal, does it?
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I saw a naked picture of me on the internet
Wearing Jesus's new snowshoes.
Well, golly gee.
- Eels
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Qupe
Shipmate
# 12388
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Posted
Let's not forget that some of Paul's biggest financial supporters were businesswomen. (Bit of a tangent!)
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'Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.'
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally Posted by Doulos:
Let's not forget that some of Paul's biggest financial supporters were businesswomen.
If this is the case, then was Paul's support of women a matter of financial convenience or necessity rather than ideals? Was Paul just being pragmatic?
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mirrizin:
quote:
Originally Posted by Doulos:
Let's not forget that some of Paul's biggest financial supporters were businesswomen.
If this is the case, then was Paul's support of women a matter of financial convenience or necessity rather than ideals? Was Paul just being pragmatic?
I suppose the test case is Phoebe. A quite common interpretation of this passage is that the reason for Paul's (unique in scripture) commendation of Phoebe is that she is the bearer of the Epistle. Paul introduces her, urges support of her, and commends her service and her value to him and the church. I don't think this is pragmatism. He entrusted her with the carrying of an important letter (over which which he had clearly laboured long and hard). This strongly suggests a very high level of respect for her trustworthiness as a person.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
This strongly suggests a very high level of respect for her trustworthiness as a person.
And the level of respect she probably already commanded within the receiving community.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doulos:
Let's not forget that some of Paul's biggest financial supporters were businesswomen.
As were some of Jesus's.
Both following the decription of the perfect woman in Proverbs - she goes out to work to support her menfolk.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
BroJames
<tangent>
I'm not sure if you know this but there has been a good deal of analysis about the destination of the version of the Epistle to the Romans that contains the commendation of Phoebe. I tend to favour the hypothesis that Romans 1-15 represented the original letter to Rome and Romans 16 was an addendum to a copy sent to the church in Ephesus. (It is easy to see why the letter might be made an Encyclical, in view of its contents) Phoebe's church at Cenchrea was about 20 miles away from Corinth and appears to have been settled during Paul's second missionary journey. It is also thought by many that Romans was written during Paul's stay in Greece (probably in or around Corinth).
The Ephesus hypothesis does make it more likely that Phoebe was known (by reputation and/or by some members) in the receiving church. Also the trip from Cenchrea to Ephesus, albeit a shortish sea crossing, would have been significantly less fraught than the trip from Cenchrea to Rome.
</tangent>
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
BroJames
<tangent>
I'm not sure if you know this but there has been a good deal of analysis about the destination of the version of the Epistle to the Romans that contains the commendation of Phoebe...
</tangent>
No I didn't know this, Barnabas 62, thanks for the heads up. I was going on the general issues in the ancient world surrounding the relative trustworthiness of written and spoken communications, and the need to validate written communications - examples in the Pauline corpus being writing in his own hand and using couriers who were/would be trusted by the recipients.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
BroJames
I don't know if you've got access to a Peake's Commentary, (1962 Revision edited by Matthew Black). It contains a commentary on Romans by Rev T W Manson and the issue is covered neatly in the introduction, under the subheading The problem of the last two chapters . The following comment, in support of the Ephesus hypothesis, has some force.
quote:
The commendation of Phoebe would carry more weight ... if it came from the Apostle to a church in which he was already well known and respected.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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flickeringflame
Apprentice
# 12703
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nigel M:
quote:
Originally posted by flickeringflame:
I think Epictetus qualifies. His dates are ca 50 AD to 120 AD. He said he was sad that women (girls) could have been good scholars and students of philosophy but unfortunately at the age of 14 or so saw that all that mattered was their marriageability. I think that's quite liberal, if we have to talk two thousand years ago!
Welcome to the Ship posts, flickeringflame!
tWhat would Epictetus' response have been, do you think? Would he have counselled that women put up with society's expectations, or would he have suggested striving to change? I gather a saying attributed to him is "All philosophy lies in two words: sustain or abstain."
Hi Nigel M, thanks for the welcome! And for the interesting question. Of course we assume Epictetus taught only young men - but he taught them to analyse the prevailing society and to be highly critical of it; they were to apply the Stoic approach to the prevailing social mores of the day and be different from the "crowd". Maybe he never addressed females directly (but then again, how would we know? - half of his lecture notes are 'lost'- read: "destroyed" by the early church?) - but anyone who reads his discourses sees his approach to life and can imagine that he would counsel females to do the same. He had been a slave and knew the degradation of that life - read his words and you see his empathy with the lowest levels of society. He knows what abuse is - he has taken it himself - so would he not have empathised with what it meant to be female? He argues with upstart young Roman men as regards their slaves:" Do you not know they are sons of Zeus as you are?" This to me is a man who is very modern - in ways that relate to me actually more so than St Paul.
There ARE legends that he married in very old age so that his wife could look after a female child he saved from being 'exposed' - a practice of the Romans to do away with unwanted girl babies. This speaks for itself, in my opinion, as regards his response to the question of male and female importance in the first century.
Posts: 46 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2007
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
(makes mental note to learn more about this Epictetus guy...)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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flickeringflame
Apprentice
# 12703
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Posted
Hi Kelly Alves. Hope you do look Epictetus up - you'll like him!
He's got a sense of humour (something apparently lacking in the Hebraic tradition).
Posts: 46 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2007
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by flickeringflame:
He's got a sense of humour (something apparently lacking in the Hebraic tradition).
Actually there is lot of humor in the Old Testament. See this thread.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by flickeringflame:
Hi Kelly Alves. Hope you do look Epictetus up - you'll like him!
He's got a sense of humour (something apparently lacking in the Hebraic tradition).
(after Googling) ![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif) Many, many thanks for that one. Talk about somebody I would have loved to meet!
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
bump
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
bump
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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