|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Kerygmania: The Psalm Thread
|
Anselm
Shipmate
# 4499
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nigel M:
Is there a middle way between ignoring the unpleasant bits and spiritualizing them away? Are we forever stuck between Marcion and Origen?
I am not sure what you see as an Origen-ic spiritualizing away of the text, but it seems to me that the New Testament writers take the "enemies-of-God's-people" to a new level. For example quote:
Eph 6:10-12
10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
It seems that Revelation takes a similar direction.
The other place where a psalm-like invective is used in the NT is against those who are seen as deliberately false teachers.
For example here and here.
However, having said all this I don't think that Ps 5 is too bad in its invective against "the wicked"™ - it just seems to say that God will judge them.
--------------------
carpe diem domini
...seize the day to play dominoes?
Posts: 2544 | From: The Scriptorium | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselm:
I am not sure what you see as an Origen-ic spiritualizing away of the text...
Hi Anslem,
It was the "This is a picture of [enter favourite NT spiritual match, e.g., Christ and the Church...]" approach that I was thinking of there. It would be interesting to investigate where the line should be drawn on this approach to the OT. I would want to take the whole OT on its own terms before seeing if it was necessary to apply any figurative layer on top; I guess that is because I tend to see it as some kind of defeat if I have to! In other words, I can't stomach some part of the OT so I duck out by spiritualising it away.
I agree that there is a 'NT' view that can be taken - the recognition that there are spiritual forces over (or behind) the material. Certainly it's worth keeping that in mind when reading or praying the likes of Psalm 5. I think my concern is that we lose sight of the material in the fight against the spiritual. Is it 'un-Christian' to pray both?
A question which links with...
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Prayer should be honest, including praying the psalms.
Yes - I think a nail is smacked on the nut here: for me, I wonder if I am being really honest if I pray Ps. 5 in a way that ignores or 'fixes' the phrases that condemn wicked people.
This may be a western cultural thing, but few Christians that I have met are at ease with passages that direct condemnation at people. If Psalm 5 was directed at "wickedness", rather than "the wicked", I'm sure it would be prayed more often without a feeling of guilt or unease. However, as it stands, it sounds as though I am praying for rebels against God's Kingdom (= sinners) to be excluded (banished) from God's presence forever.
And this, too, has its counterpart in the NT - again focused on people as much as the acts / motivations.
So - if I am honest - I should conclude that the Bible adopts a rigorous stance against individuals who rebel against God. Indeed, I should pray for their downfall.
As an associated anecdote to this; during part of the '80s I was a member of a Christian community in Northern Ireland, where prayer for reconciliation, forgiveness and renewal was a core element of activity. It was a constant question on our minds: how far do we go in praying for men of violence to cease their activities? Do we leave it at a general petition for peace? Do we pray that God would intervene in people's minds and hearts? Do we pray that security forces would "arrest" those involved in violence? Or should we pray that violent people should be rejected by God?
Nigel
Posts: 2826 | From: London, UK | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
CuppaT
Shipmate
# 10523
|
Posted
If someone is able to link me to Origen’s commentary on Psalm 5, I for one, would be interested. Apparently, he wrote a commentary on the first 25 Psalms. Both Marcion and Origen were heretics, but such things are on a sliding scale, so to speak, if I may be so bold, and Marcion was way off, but many of Origen’s writings are included next to writings of the great saints because some of the things he had to say are worth reading. I already spent a great deal of time on Ethereal Library to no avail, but maybe someone else knows their way around books better than I.
Before we really get back to Psalm 5 I think we need address some of the issues on the table.
Yes, I think we can indeed pray the Psalms honestly and with a good heart.
quote:
Originally posted by Nigel M:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselm:
I am not sure what you see as an Origen-ic spiritualizing away of the text...
Hi Anslem,
It was the "This is a picture of [enter favourite NT spiritual match, e.g., Christ and the Church...]" approach that I was thinking of there. It would be interesting to investigate where the line should be drawn on this approach to the OT. I would want to take the whole OT on its own terms before seeing if it was necessary to apply any figurative layer on top; I guess that is because I tend to see it as some kind of defeat if I have to! In other words, I can't stomach some part of the OT so I duck out by spiritualising it away.
But there is no need! You are not spiritualizing anything away, but rather coming at it with a Christian perspective. Yes, the people in of Israel, and all the people of the Old Testament did not always understand the point, and what was going on. King David himself may not have understood that some of the things he was writing were prophesies. But WE do.
quote:
I agree that there is a 'NT' view that can be taken -
Ah, that's it! The incarnation of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ makes all the difference in the world. He is the fulcrum point.
quote:
the recognition that there are spiritual forces over (or behind) the material. Certainly it's worth keeping that in mind when reading or praying the likes of Psalm 5. I think my concern is that we lose sight of the material in the fight against the spiritual. Is it 'un-Christian' to pray both?
It is not un-Christian to pray for the downfall of evil, both the spiritual and the material, but you have to know why, and you should be praying with a pure heart when you pray for the wicked. But don't think that it is the lesser of the two to pray against the spiritual forces, becuase you would be fooling yourself. I suspect a great deal of spiritual maturity has to do with learning to be more wary of the spiritual battles that are being waged all around us at every moment.
quote:
A question which links with...
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Prayer should be honest, including praying the psalms.
Yes - I think a nail is smacked on the nut here: for me, I wonder if I am being really honest if I pray Ps. 5 in a way that ignores or 'fixes' the phrases that condemn wicked people.
This may be a western cultural thing, but few Christians that I have met are at ease with passages that direct condemnation at people. If Psalm 5 was directed at "wickedness", rather than "the wicked", I'm sure it would be prayed more often without a feeling of guilt or unease. However, as it stands, it sounds as though I am praying for rebels against God's Kingdom (= sinners) to be excluded (banished) from God's presence forever.
And this, too, has its counterpart in the NT - again focused on people as much as the acts / motivations.
So - if I am honest - I should conclude that the Bible adopts a rigorous stance against individuals who rebel against God.
God certainly does adopt a rigorous stance against those who rebel against him.
quote:
Indeed, I should pray for their downfall.
Absolutely. But why? To what end?
quote:
As an associated anecdote to this; during part of the '80s I was a member of a Christian community in Northern Ireland, where prayer for reconciliation, forgiveness and renewal was a core element of activity. It was a constant question on our minds: how far do we go in praying for men of violence to cease their activities? Do we leave it at a general petition for peace? Do we pray that God would intervene in people's minds and hearts? Do we pray that security forces would "arrest" those involved in violence? Or should we pray that violent people should be rejected by God? Nigel
Let's look at Psalm 80/81 for a moment. Verses 8 to the end - God longs to give his people every good thing, and yet they would not listen, he would have taken care of them in every way, but instead they followed their own hearts lusts, so God throws up his hands, in essence, and says have it your way, and they walked in their own counsels.
Then across the page in Psalm 82/83 after many condemnations, this Psalm gives a reason: That they may know that Thou, whose name alone is Jehovah, art most high over all the earth.
Why do we pray against the wicked? That they may turn around! So absolutely pray against the forces of evil that assault us. Pray also that God would stop the horribly wicked and evil men that we see. But finish your prayer -- that those that rebel against God may repent of their wickedness and rise up and become saints in his kingdom!
Think of the many teachings of our Lord, how he longed to gather them under his wings as a hen gathers her chicks, how broadly he scattered the seeds of his teachings despite the fact that only some of the seeds fell on good soil, etc. His love is boundless, and his arms outstreched.
CuppaT
--------------------
Stand at the brink of the abyss of despair, and when you see that you cannot bear it any longer, draw back a little and have a cup of tea.
~Elder Sophrony
Posts: 919 | From: the edge of the Ozarks | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CuppaT:
If someone is able to link me to Origen’s commentary on Psalm 5, I for one, would be interested. Apparently, he wrote a commentary on the first 25 Psalms.
I couldn't find any of his commentaries on the Psalms online, CuppaT, but there are bits and pieces from his works on the gospels where he quotes passages from the Psalms to support his interpretation. For example, he uses Psalm 41:9 (“Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me”) as support for believing that Judas Iscariot has once genuinely believed before he betrayed Jesus. While it is possible to use the OT passages in this way – and indeed there is a substantial heritage within Christianity that interprets the OT just like that – my reading of Psalm 5 sparked off the concern that readers might be encouraged to miss the message that lies embedded.
I know this probably sounds like an inversion of the approach taken in parts of the early church: there interpreters felt that the 'surface' or material sense of a passage was deficient in some way and that there was a deeper, spiritual sense to be acquired. I feeling is that things might have gone too far and that for many Christians the only approach to interpretation is to seek a spiritual meaning – and that this has become the 'surface' level reading. Little or no attempt is made to dig deeper into the text for a canonical reading that includes the meaning 'meant' by the author at the time of writing. The challenge, it seems to me, is to find an approach that is both honest to the OT in its setting and at the same time honest to the NT in its fulfilling. Simple, eh?!
quote:
Originally posted by CuppaT:
Why do we pray against the wicked? That they may turn around! So absolutely pray against the forces of evil that assault us. Pray also that God would stop the horribly wicked and evil men that we see. But finish your prayer -- that those that rebel against God may repent of their wickedness and rise up and become saints in his kingdom!
No problem with that at all, CuppaT; I think that is the right general approach to take in prayer. What do we do, though, in those situations where specific people act in ways we would consider evil, or wicked, and are acting now in those ways? Where they have not shown any inkling to repent? Where the offer of forgiveness is rebuffed? A NT example, perhaps, is where Paul advised a church to expel someone from the fellowship, or where he takes a church to task for harbouring people who were excluded from God's Kingdom. I wonder if a point is reached when it becomes clear that there can be no forgiveness without repentance and where repentance is not forthcoming, then forgiveness can no longer be offered? These tricky questions have been tackled before, I know; it's the role of interpretation in all this that intrigues me.
I know that a proper response from Christians in situations like that would be to at least keep open the hope of reconciliation, even though there is no immediate evidence of a turning around on the part of aggressor. Accepting that there has to be truth before reconciliation (the South African model for the post-Apartheid era) is a Christian response. The corollary of that, though, would have to be that there will need to be punishment in the absence of truth – and that also seems to be a biblical theme. A hard theme, for Christians! Is that where Psalm 5 kicks in?
Posts: 2826 | From: London, UK | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
CuppaT
Shipmate
# 10523
|
Posted
quote:
I know this probably sounds like an inversion of the approach taken in parts of the early church: there interpreters felt that the 'surface' or material sense of a passage was deficient in some way and that there was a deeper, spiritual sense to be acquired. I feeling is that things might have gone too far and that for many Christians the only approach to interpretation is to seek a spiritual meaning – and that this has become the 'surface' level reading. Little or no attempt is made to dig deeper into the text for a canonical reading that includes the meaning 'meant' by the author at the time of writing. The challenge, it seems to me, is to find an approach that is both honest to the OT in its setting and at the same time honest to the NT in its fulfilling. Simple, eh?!
Well, surface or deeper, it only makes sense that we should look at what the author meant first when he wrote it, I agree. That is usually the first key to understanding any story. In Holy Scriptures, however, we have the added blessing of layer upon layer of treasures to be unearthed. It would be a mistake, though, to listen to any fool and his own interpretation of things. The Church has stood through the centuries and written vast amounts of literature on all the books of the Bible; indeed it continues to do so. We listen especially to those who followed our Lord most closely in time, and those that followed immediately after them. God has made his people intelligent and rational creatures, and those things that are right and good and true stand the test of time, and they are honored by the faithful.
quote:
What do we do, though, in those situations where specific people act in ways we would consider evil, or wicked, and are acting now in those ways? Where they have not shown any inkling to repent? Where the offer of forgiveness is rebuffed? A NT example, perhaps, is where Paul advised a church to expel someone from the fellowship, or where he takes a church to task for harboring people who were excluded from God's Kingdom. I wonder if a point is reached when it becomes clear that there can be no forgiveness without repentance and where repentance is not forthcoming, then forgiveness can no longer be offered? These tricky questions have been tackled before, I know; it's the role of interpretation in all this that intrigues me.
I know that a proper response from Christians in situations like that would be to at least keep open the hope of reconciliation, even though there is no immediate evidence of a turning around on the part of aggressor.
Keeping in mind that I am Orthodox, I mean, I remember my Protestant days, but I was a child mostly then, and whether I was just not cognizant of it I do not know, I never saw church discipline in action, but I see it frequently now. I have seen priests quietly refuse to let someone come back into the congregation because of the discord that person would sow. I have seen whole families be referred elsewhere. I have seen a priest be refused to come back and give an apology to a congregation for a past action, partly because the congregation had changed in the interim and it would cause confusion and open an old scandal to newcomers. I have seen a man under confession be excommunicated, though welcomed in attendance, for a year, after which time he, with much counseling, I assume, joyfully began communing again. My own former Bishop, well beloved, was disgraced by his actions and made to step down from ever serving as Bishop again, given a desk job in essence, though he is still called Bishop in title, but he may not serve at the altar ever again. I’m sure any parish or your own church has its stories. A good priest or pastor can manipulate his congregation under the guidance of the Holy Spirit for the good of his flock. I have seen the necessity of it. I will also say that probably the greater number of congregants did not know what was happening or what ever happened to some problem people who just stopped coming. I get concerned about people and quietly ask.
Does there need to be punishment in absence of truth? Punishment, no. Punishment sounds vindictive and reasonless. But discipline is often called for. And sometimes that discipline is harsh. Sometimes pastors and priests must look and sound mean for peoples' own good; they have so hardened their hearts and stopped up their ears that kindly words and actions won’t get through to them. Truth hurts sometimes. Don’t we all know it from childhood on up?
Is this where Psalm 5 kicks in? “Thou shalt destroy them that speak lies; the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man; destroy thou them, O God; let them fall by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions, for they have rebelled against thee.” And David was a man after God’s own heart? Well, I am a woman. I am not quite the warrior type, though I can be fierce after a fashion, if I need to be. I do pray this Psalm wholeheartedly. I don’t think I have ever thought of praying it against People, even if I assume King David did at the time he wrote it. That’s fine with me. I fight my own Philistines and Hittites and Amorites and Ammonites and Og and Bashan.
CuppaT
--------------------
Stand at the brink of the abyss of despair, and when you see that you cannot bear it any longer, draw back a little and have a cup of tea.
~Elder Sophrony
Posts: 919 | From: the edge of the Ozarks | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
CuppaT
Shipmate
# 10523
|
Posted
A slight postscript. I should have said not praying against specific people. I think, like Wise King Soloman said, there is a time for everything, and in this case, a time for praying generally as opposed to praying specifically. God is the Righteous Judge and we leave the specifics to his divine wisdom.
CuppaT
--------------------
Stand at the brink of the abyss of despair, and when you see that you cannot bear it any longer, draw back a little and have a cup of tea.
~Elder Sophrony
Posts: 919 | From: the edge of the Ozarks | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
Ouch. what an interesting thread to come across, right now when my old enemies have resurfaced! I shy away from the very hardest of the psalms (Let his children be fatherless, etc.) but do pray these psalms with vigor with regards to certain people. The Lord may fault me for that, and I couldn't blame him. But since that's what my deepest heart is really saying, why not say it openly and then ask the Lord to do something about my attitude if it's offensive to him?
At the moment there are certainly some ... I-pods ... that I would love to see dashed against the rocks.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
CuppaT
Shipmate
# 10523
|
Posted
I know I have never been persecuted like you have been, LC, not in the same way certainly. I know what it is to be hated though, a couple times over, the details of which I won't mention. Not childhood stuff though, but adult things done by church people. I still can't say that I ever felt more than pity for them, because they were the ones bound up by hatred. In all those times of praying the Psalms through, though, I never brought them to mind specifically, nor did I even fight not to. I guess we really ought to let God have a go at determining who the evil ones and who the ungodly and who the wicked are, for we're really not the best judges of hearts after all. Or at least I'm not. I know in my own cases, my people were misunderstanding things and refusing to hear truth. They hardened their hearts and thus became poisoned with hatred. One is cured and we live in miraculous harmony, another, I don't know if that one ever will be this side of heaven, the self-deception is so ingrained.
CuppaT
--------------------
Stand at the brink of the abyss of despair, and when you see that you cannot bear it any longer, draw back a little and have a cup of tea.
~Elder Sophrony
Posts: 919 | From: the edge of the Ozarks | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anselm
Shipmate
# 4499
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nigel M:
It was the "This is a picture of [enter favourite NT spiritual match, e.g., Christ and the Church...]" approach that I was thinking of there. It would be interesting to investigate where the line should be drawn on this approach to the OT. I would want to take the whole OT on its own terms before seeing if it was necessary to apply any figurative layer on top; I guess that is because I tend to see it as some kind of defeat if I have to! In other words, I can't stomach some part of the OT so I duck out by spiritualising it away
Hi Nigel,
My problem with the example that you gave is not the typological ("spiritualising") approach, but that a lot of preachers I have heard are lazy in the parallels they draw - squashing the OT incident into a preconceived theology without allowing the OT passage to speak with its own nuances, without allowing the OT to inform and shape our NT theology.
Further, I think the problems is not so much the whole OT but rather fitting "Israel" into our biblical theology. Why didn't Adam and Eve simply give birth to Jesus; to be crucified by Cain for our sins. That would fit in better with our theologies, with our retellings of the gospel. Why the need for "Israel"?
In reflecting on this, I wonder whether "Israel" is a bit like a Petri Dish used in biology. It is a specimen of humanity that serves three functions - Israel is a scaled down model of both fallen humanity and the Kingdom of God
- Israel is an incubator for God's saviour
- Israel acts as a catalyst for God's salvation
Now because of 1. we are able to 'learn some lessons' from Israel's history, while also facing up to the reality of the history. It also helps to understand why there are elements to the "Israel" stage of salvation history that have past and are no longer applicable, as we have moved from 'model' to 'reality'. quote:
As an associated anecdote to this; during part of the '80s I was a member of a Christian community in Northern Ireland, where prayer for reconciliation, forgiveness and renewal was a core element of activity. It was a constant question on our minds: how far do we go in praying for men of violence to cease their activities? Do we leave it at a general petition for peace? Do we pray that God would intervene in people's minds and hearts? Do we pray that security forces would "arrest" those involved in violence? Or should we pray that violent people should be rejected by God?
I would say pray everything but the last suggestion. It would also be appropriate to pray that the evil schemes of violent people come to nothing, by whatever means. And that people at all levels, and in all parts, of society would have the courage to stand up for what is just and loving.
--------------------
carpe diem domini
...seize the day to play dominoes?
Posts: 2544 | From: The Scriptorium | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselm:
My problem with the example that you gave is not the typological ("spiritualising") approach, but that a lot of preachers I have heard are lazy in the parallels they draw - squashing the OT incident into a preconceived theology without allowing the OT passage to speak with its own nuances, without allowing the OT to inform and shape our NT theology.
I have to agree; there's a block of work that needs doing around this, isn't there? I sense that there is a two-stage approach here for teachers: firstly to understand the OT passage on its own terms; then secondly to see how the birth/life/death/resurrection/vindication of Jesus impacts on that understanding (via the NT).
This approach could allow the OT to throw light on NT passages just as much as the New can on the Old. It can also put God's work in a wider perspective and allows the reader to ask the same difficult questions the OT writers were asking about life, the universe and everything. The Old informs the New and the New completes the Old. As you say, there's much to be gained from looking at the reality of history. Our theology (theologies?) can be molded and developed as we do. Perhaps this is part of discipleship: opening up the whole bible so as to better understand God and his desire for our lives.
I like the Petri dish analogy!
Nigel
Posts: 2826 | From: London, UK | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
|
Posted
Moved on to the next Psalm so that people can comment if they wish.
There's a heading in this Psalm that forms verse one in Hebrew as well as Greek and some English translations. The translations struggle with the terminology in the heading so I won't include it here, but if anyone wants to discuss it, by all means do raise the issue!
quote:
Psalm 6
O Lord!
Don't rebuke me when you're angry; don't discipline when you're furious!
Be merciful, Lord - I'm fading out; heal me, Lord – my bones are shaking!
I am completely terrified; and you, Lord, how long?
Come back, Lord! Take me away!
Save me! It's your covenant duty!
For no-one remembers you when they're dead; who in a grave will give you thanks?
I'm exhausted with crying.
Every night my bed's like a swimming pool; my tears drench it.
My eyes are worn out by my anger; tired out by my enemies.
Leave me alone, you rebels! The Lord has heard my weeping.
The Lord has heard my appeal; He has granted my application.
Let all my enemies be ashamed; let them be terrified!
Let them be sent away and unexpectedly humiliated!
Posts: 2826 | From: London, UK | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
|
Posted
Thought I'd bring this thread back up a bit! Paraphrase of Psalm 7 below. Different feel to Psalm 6, which seeks God's mercy. This Psalm seeks God's justice on the basis that God has made a bargain to protect the writer so long as the writer is loyal to God. The imagery of the law court crops up here: God as judge being implored to stand and give judgment (standing being the stance a judge takes in many jurisdictions when it comes time to deliver the judgment). The psalmist engages in a fair bit of rhetoric (not unusual): e.g., the fear that the judge is lapsing and has fallen asleep on the job, and the taunting detail of God preparing to fire his weapons on the guilty in execution of his judgment.
quote:
Lord, my God!
I have put my faith in you for protection. So protect me! Rescue me from those who chase me!
If you don't, they will rip me to shreds like a lion; tearing, with no rescue.
Lord, my God!
If I have done this: “my actions are unjust,
I have not protected those faithful to me”;
Then, of course, let my enemy chase and catch me,
Let him crush my life and leave me dishonoured in the dust.
Stand up in anger, Lord! Rise up in your furious rage!
Wake up for me and pass sentence!
The Council of nations is in your court;
Retake your proper position of authority over them!
The Lord judges the nations, so judge me Lord;
I am not guilty; I am blameless, Most High.
May the evil of the guilty fail, but may the innocent be successful,
You who examine hearts and minds, the Just God.
My loyalty is to God, he protects the truly faithful.
God is a just Judge, he pronounces judgments all the day long.
If someone does not admit their guilt, God prepares his weapons, ready to fire.
He sets his deadly sights on his enemy and puts his finger on the trigger.
Look at the person who plans evil! Like a pregnant woman he labours to give birth to evil;
He digs out a trap pit – and then falls into the same pit he dug!
His own mischief rebounds on him; his violence hits his own head.
I will thank Lord for his justice; I will sing about the name of the Most High Lord!
Posts: 2826 | From: London, UK | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
|
Posted
{BUMP}
--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
|
Posted
Psalm 8
quote:
Yahweh! Our Lord!
How majestic is your name throughout the earth!
You've made your majesty clear above the skies.
From the mouths of children and babies you have ordained praise;
On account of your adversaries you forced Enemy and Rebel to stop.
When I see your skies, the work of your fingers,
the moon, the stars, that you set in place,
What's a human, that you would bother with them?
Dust-kids, that you would notice them?
Yet, you placed them a little lower than the divine council;
Honour and majesty you granted them.
You appointed them to rule over everything you made;
Everything was placed under their control -
Sheep, cattle, all together;
Wild animals, sky birds, the fish in the sea;
Everything swimming through the currents of the sea.
Yahweh! Our Lord!
How majestic is your name throughout the earth!
A great Psalm – so much could be said about it. Similar concepts, of course to the creation accounts and the role of humans in it all, regarding them in much greater worth than other accounts in the ancient near east. Still, the Psalm stops short of placing humans inside the divine council. An interesting tension – ruler of all he surveys, but not a decision maker with Yahweh.
Posts: 2826 | From: London, UK | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Caledonian
Shipmate
# 15493
|
Posted
I find the Psalms very hard to get into. Its a great pity because I think a 'perpetual psalter' would be a good thing. Maybe Thomas Merton has got at me!
Posts: 76 | From: Scotland | Registered: Feb 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
|
Posted
In my time I've attended Churches of the Perpetual Chorus! Thomas Merton those choruses were not. Still, I found that there's an interesting link between the repetition and the ability to express worship (when not done mechanically). With the Psalms we are obviously hindered by the fact that they don't scan like English poetry, and it is a tricky task to try and translate them in a way that keeps faith to the Hebrew expression while allowing them to express themselves well in English.
I feel a challenge coming on. Take a Psalm (8, for example) and translate using a poetic style familiar to English speakers.
There once was a God-type boss,
Who couldn't really care a toss
About the tossers out there
Who couldn't compare
With the lowest of lowest peat moss.
Quick - I need three chords, a PowerPoint slide, a piano, and I'm away. One more time. and one more time.
Posts: 2826 | From: London, UK | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
