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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Kerygmania: Lazarus
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
I know I should read the whole thread, but Alan's c.2/2 is obviously right.
Lazarus died. And didn't stay dead. Jesus is, as so VERY often, oracular. As for the young girl, she was either clinically irreversibly dead at the time of Jesus saying that she was asleep, where He is therefore being metaphorical about death and denying the understanding of it as the end of a person, or she had been clinically dead until Jesus said she slept. Either way there is no doubt in all of the witnesses that she was stone cold dead. Only an idiot could have said otherwise. Or God.
There is NO other Christian alternative.
Its a truism to say that Jesus and his contemporaries would not have encountered the term "clinically dead" nor would they have understood it had been possible to explain it to them. But exactly how Jesus and his contemporaries did understand death is very much a matter of conjecture. That different people could make different diagnoses of when death occurred irreversibly must be possible - because they still do, and mistakes are still made. It looks to me that the people around Jesus were quite sure they knew when someone was dead. And that Jesus was quite sure he knew when somebody was alive. And that when those two certainties became mutually exclusive, the people told Jesus he was a fool. Jesus made no argument, not being there to score points, but got on with the healing. Which sometimes involved nothing more (nor less) than the patience to wait and faith in God (the one up there) to do the business.
It's an interesting hypothesis, and probably closer to the truth than the ceremonial one.
And to get to above, the fact that it feels close is why it bugs me. I suppose the hard part is separating the historical kernel from John's agenda. It's not that you can't, but it's very dangerous, especially when the resurrection is so plainly John's agenda and reason for including the story.
I still think you're going to have to figure out Jesus' line of "This is not to death, but for the greater glory of God." My instinct is to say he's contrasting decay with healing instead of poo-pooing the illness as minor, but that's me.
And I have known people even today (one a close friend) who have had scientifically impossible recoveries (or at least on the scarily remote end of the bell curve) and for them it's a significant part of the faith. That might be another angle here.
It would be interesting to see where the research went. I'm still skeptical, but it is interesting.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It ' s no conjecture at all that you have to be a rationalist pimple. Be happy with that. Rejoice. In your scintilla of meaningless existence.
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Love wins
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
Thank you. I'll try. See if it works. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
How's it going?
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Love wins
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
Is Rosencrantz in Purg now? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
The problem is with suggestions that I still have to works some things out. And I don't. Iread the story and it's all perfectly straightforward. ISTM that it's the tradition-makers who have mucked around with it.
The easiest thing about a rational approach is this: whatever solution you come to when there is a serious problem, you have to test it - and I don't mean science, mechanics, material values or whatever, I mean you have to talk to people.
And if they tell you your answer is gooky or whacky or weird or plain ridiculous (like they do, occasionally ) Then you have to seriously consider their verdict.
But the crunch is this. If their verdict is based on the incontrovertible fact that "God did it" - magically, supernaturally - and especially if their inarguable proof consists solely that "the bible says so" I feel I am allowed to say that any theory of mine must be less whacky than that.
Except that, having read about A.N.WILSON'S theory further up the page, I'm tempted to side with the believers!
So it's a bit of a bumpy ride at the moment,
Martin. But thanks for asking.
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
Pimple, your conjecture seems to be that people 2000 years ago were too stupid to know what death looked like. That's quite offensive, don't you think? If anything it'll be the other way round: people had better ideas about death before it was sanitized and moved into hospitals with drugs and white coats.
Oh dear, my head hurts and my eyes are red with rubbing - not your fault DS - it just took me a long time to find your post, which I suddenly remembered I couldn't fob off with a blanket apology to all the people I hadn't yet answered.
When people counter an argument about the past with "do you think they were stupid way back then - do you think you know better than the people who were there at the time?" I find it ddifficult to sort out the yesses and noes succinctly. But I'll try.
Can you think of anything that has been witnessed by humankind older than the rising and the setting on the sun? I won't go on- it's a rehash of the olf flat earth argument. Of course we know some things the ancients didn't.
It is not stupid to be wrong. It is not stupid to be mistaken. It is not stupid to see things from a different perspective from other people.
It is stupid - sometimes to persist in a wrong belief when it has been demonstrated that you were mistaken.
But it is also sometimes wrong to take advantage of our reluctance to admit our mistakes. How many times did Jesus say "Ye that have ears to hear.." or "This advice is meant for those who can manage it (the law on divorce IIRC)"?
So that when Jairus's daughter is raised, Jesus could have said "See? I told you - she was only sleeping." But how
would that have made the girl's father feel?
And this is a bit of a tangent - oh bugger it - it's more than that. It'sanother senior moment. I've completely forgotten where I was. You may laugh. Kindly.
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
But the crunch is this. If their verdict is based on the incontrovertible fact that "God did it" - magically, supernaturally - and especially if their inarguable proof consists solely that "the bible says so" I feel I am allowed to say that any theory of mine must be less whacky than that.
Well, of course it must be! If you rule out the supernatural from the start, you're forced to make do with "natural" answers, no matter how whacky they may be. It's a limitation of the argument.
But if we're talking about Lazarus again, is it worth point out that by the time Jesus did whatever he did, it was four days on? Which means that rigor mortis had been and gone again, quite possibly witnessed by the women, who would have prepared his body for burial, and who were certainly in no doubt that he was indeed dead? As Martha, said, "Lord, by this time he stinketh." (love that Elizabethan) Not to mention the fact that, if he indeed had HAD a disease that mimicked death so closely his nearest and dearest were fooled, then being shut up alive in a dark airless tomb for four days, utterly unattended, was not precisely the treatment best calculated to getting him up on his feet again.
No, I'm sorry. If the facts of the event are as reported (AND you don't automatically rule out the supernatural on first principles), then John's explanation is the simplest and fits the facts best. If you DO rule out the supernatural from the get-go, well, you have a difficult time of it.
(and has it occurred to you that on your hypothesis, there are a suspiciously high number of "looks dead but isn't really" funerals in Jesus' vicinity? I mean, one I might accept (hard to bend my mind around it, but I could try). But there's Jairus' daughter, the widow's only son, the centurion's servant, Lazarus, and finally Jesus himself. Perhaps we ought to imagine one of the disciples making the rounds ahead of Jesus with some sort of voodoo poison that would wear off just in time for Jesus to "raise" each victim from the dead. Otherwise I have to conclude that first century people were shockingly inept when it came to telling if someone was dead or alive. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Dead people are cold. Maybe in this day and age we don't remember that and think it would be easy for somebody to be asleep and mistaken for dead. But after 4 days, he'd be cold. Those laying out his body for burial would have noticed he was cold. No?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I'm sure they would. Though they wouldn't have waited four days to do it--Phew!--doubtless same day burial, unless it was quite late at night). But a lot more ceremony than Jesus got--they would have had to wash the body, do the spices and swathing, procession to the tomb, etc. etc. etc. Plenty of time to catch any "hey, this guy still feels warm to me."
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
All perfectly reasonable. But in a hot climate would the body drop below the ambient temperature? And there is some evidence that near-death syndromes have been alleviated by placing the body in a cool place.
The four-day delay looks like a clincher for your argument, but I cannot counter it without a rather feeble "stranger things happen at sea".
One writer who claimed that Jesus survived his crucifixion also claimed that the story of Lazarus must have been made up - because after four days buried alive he'd have been a raving lunatic! I think there are far more holes in his argument than in yours (how condescending of me ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) )but he was a doctor, and doctors are even worse than hoi polloi for knowing it all.
One thing is for sure - regardless of whether Lazarus recovered naturally or was eaised from the dead - and that is that we have no way of knowing what illness Lazarus had. Nor of how widespread or how localised it may have been. New syndromes continue to be discovered and nobody today would tell the parents of a child with a one-in-ten-million genetic defect that the only hope for here is a supernatural miracle.
Oh, I don't know though...
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Well, I'm not sure what time of the year Lazarus died (anybody know?) but I've a hazy idea it was a few months before Jesus' own death, because it seems to have been the deciding factor in the "all right, let's get him NOW" attitude of the religious establishment. So working backward, that would put Lazarus' death somewhere in winter. I was born and raised in California, which has a Mediterranean climate, and I can tell you that except for the hottest days in summer (far fewer than you'd expect, the proximity of the ocean moderates everything!) you'd certainly be able to tell the difference. And of course Bethany was right by the Sea of Galilee and not all that far from the Mediterranean Sea. So yes, I do think the temp difference would be noticeable, unless you were having a rare heat spell.
But I do think you're right. There's just no natural explanation that doesn't get so full of holes it makes the supernatural one look all the more attractive. And I can see why you would struggle with believing it for just that reason. But having seen the power of God myself, well...
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Lazarus stank. He was a rotting corpse. Bloating. Fermenting. Leaking. Infested with beetle and fly necrotic sarcophagic larvae.
How quaint to believe that everyone was just superstitiously mistaken.
That Jesus survived a Roman scourging alone. Let alone disfiguring beating, crucifixion and all but disemboweling.
NO ONE survived scourging. Crucifixion yes, but not scourging. It's like 50% 3rd degree burns.
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Love wins
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
But that Lazarus stank was a reasonable assumption, not a statement of observed fact. Many early versions translated idiomatically "But there will be a stink; he has been dead four days." That's how it appears in RSV, IIRC, but NRSV now has "already there is a stench because he has been dead four days" - a victory for some literal-minded inerrantist on the revision committee, I guess.
That was the whole bloody point of asking Jesus not to have the tomb opened, why cannot you see that? There would be s stench IN THE TOMB so dont open it up and let the stench out. All very sensible. Unlike your last post.
[ETA
The Greek, translated word for word says "there is stink; it is four days" (from memory - I don't have my interlinear gospel to hand)
[ 22. November 2010, 18:15: Message edited by: pimple ]
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
What?
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Love wins
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
But that Lazarus stank was a reasonable assumption, not a statement of observed fact. Many early versions translated idiomatically "But there will be a stink; he has been dead four days." That's how it appears in RSV, IIRC, but NRSV now has "already there is a stench because he has been dead four days" - a victory for some literal-minded inerrantist on the revision committee, I guess.
That was the whole bloody point of asking Jesus not to have the tomb opened, why cannot you see that? There would be s stench IN THE TOMB so dont open it up and let the stench out. All very sensible. Unlike your last post.
[ETA
The Greek, translated word for word says "there is stink; it is four days" (from memory - I don't have my interlinear gospel to hand)
Looking at the Greek myself (because I enjoy this sort of thing) John 11:17 reads:
"Therefore Jesus came to find him already four days situated in the tomb."
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
and Guildenstern.
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Love wins
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
(Personal Observation)
Pimple and Martin, at this point I think you are agreeing with each other and not realizing it.
[Host Note]
Martin PC (Not), unless Guildenstern is a classical name for Lazarus that I haven't heard yet, leave him out of it. Topic, please.
K.A, Kerygmania Host.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
But that Lazarus stank was a reasonable assumption, not a statement of observed fact. Many early versions translated idiomatically "But there will be a stink; he has been dead four days." That's how it appears in RSV, IIRC, but NRSV now has "already there is a stench because he has been dead four days" - a victory for some literal-minded inerrantist on the revision committee, I guess.
That was the whole bloody point of asking Jesus not to have the tomb opened, why cannot you see that? There would be s stench IN THE TOMB so dont open it up and let the stench out. All very sensible. Unlike your last post.
[ETA
The Greek, translated word for word says "there is stink; it is four days" (from memory - I don't have my interlinear gospel to hand)
Looking at the Greek myself (because I enjoy this sort of thing) John 11:17 reads:
"Therefore Jesus came to find him already four days situated in the tomb."
John 11:39 is where the king james has stinketh
(Marshall's has 'Lord now hesmells forfourth (day) it is', the greek contains ozei? (is that related to oozing?, and on the scale of ponginess, where does it lie).
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
John 11:39? Looks like...
Jesus says "All of you move the stone!" The sister of of the one who died, Martha, says to him "Lord! Already he stinks! For it is the fourth [day after his burial]!"
The Greek, which is indeed &omicron&zeta&omega, means "stinks, gives off an odor" according to my quick and dirty dictionary.
[ 24. November 2010, 20:31: Message edited by: Bullfrog. ]
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
My abridged Liddell & Scott says "to smell, whether to smell sweet or to stink."
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Bugger! I knew I should have read the whole thread! Sorry Kelly. Anyway 'e stah'id it by saying Rosenkrantz!
So, I apologise for stupidly getting the wrong end of the pimple. How I thought that young pimple was rationalizing I dunno. But I did.
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Love wins
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Apology retracted for now!
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Love wins
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
[Hosting]
Martin.
Please use this thread to discuss the story of Lazarus. If you have a question about hosting feel free to take it to the Styx. But you know all that.
[/Hosting]
[ 25. November 2010, 18:14: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Certainly Kelly and I was not retracting my apology owed to you.
Pimple seems to be feeling toward a rationalist view here as elsewhere.
I heartily endorse the finding that Jesus dealt with people according to their beliefs, assumptions, inculturation, linguistic & psychological limitations whether He believed a word of it or not (Lazarus' namesake and Dives), that He was subtle, oracular, met and challenged and moved people from those constraints, but people knew what dead was. I've seen human death and dying. Several times. Never forgotten. Never wrong. Didn't get them mixed up. The newly dead look it when still mainly intact from across the street. You KNOW when you're looking at even fresh meat.
Jesus wasn't playing ambiguous games with superior 'medical' knowledge - breaking his humanity - of those who looked like they'd been dead for hours or days but weren't, had emptied their bowels and bladders whilst in a low respiration coma.
What do translators have to do with that?
In all of these cases the meaning of the narrative is that He resurrected the dead. As He did at the moment of His death.
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Love wins
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David
Complete Bastard
# 3
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Posted
But those Ancient people were just so STUPID. Didn't you know that Martin?
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ByHisBlood
Shipmate
# 16018
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Posted
David - quote:
But those Ancient people were just so STUPID. Didn't you know that Martin?
Not half as stupid as those of the 21st Century who are happy to attend and join Churches that have spiritual zombies running them and the stench of death throughout the pews ![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
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"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him" - Romans 5:9
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ByHisBlood:
David - quote:
But those Ancient people were just so STUPID. Didn't you know that Martin?
Not half as stupid as those of the 21st Century who are happy to attend and join Churches that have spiritual zombies running them and the stench of death throughout the pews
This is something you're competent to judge?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
... Bethany was right by the Sea of Galilee and not all that far from the Mediterranean Sea...
[Pedant alert]
While I am enjoying reading this thread, and agree largely with what LC has said, I must point out that Bethany is not by Galilee but is a couple of miles or so from Jerusalem. Thank you. Carry on...
[/Pedant alert]
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
Oh, dear! Sorry, Martin, sorry, Kelly, sorry everyone. (Bugger! I'm starting to sound like my favourite Rabbi something-or-other.)
Yes. That nonsense about the stench. We (Martin and I) were in agreement about the need not to let the smell of the rotting corpse get out to offend and infect the assembled crowd.
At least I think we were agreed on that.
Where we disagree is whether that stench was real or just in the minds of everyone who knew how long Lazarus had been in the grave.
And ISTM that part of the anguish of Jesus was in not knowing exactly what he was going to find when the grave was opened. Would there in fact be a stinking corpse in there? Is there a possibility that his prayers had not been answered? Had he been wrong about the illness in the first place? What if Lazarus had regained consciousness shortly after being buried - what then? Would they be looking at a raving lunatic, or someone who had indeed died - but in a state of terror, after his interment?
No wonder he was troubled. No wonder he "groaned within himself" a second time.
But whatever it is is there, he has to find out.
The mentioning of the stink - perhaps echoing his own subconscious thoughts, has aparadoxical effect. Before that reminder, he was visibly suffering - enough for the bystanders to note (and for some of them, to scoff, as they did around Jairus/ daughter). But suddenly his mood changes. "Didn't I tell you....!" it's a shout of joy and relief.
But the tomb is still not open. Was there a space anywhere between the rock and the tomb -space enough for something as strong enough as rotting flesh to seep out? I think there probably was.
So the rock is moved. There is no stench (my conjecture). But there is no Lazarus either.
Nobody moves to see what's in there. Does Jesus detect any movement from within the cave? If Lazarus is now fully compos mentis , what is he lijke ly to do? Given that those he loved, and who he thought loved him, hade put him in the tomb?
Jesus therefore yells at him to some out. Only then does Lazarus know it's safe to do so.
I've tried not to over-dramatise. In the book, I promise you, I won't hold back. But there it is, basicallty, FWIW.
It's not an attempt to rubbish John. convert people to pimplism, or prove anything from a rational or scientific perspective. It's just another story, inspired by a biblical story, offered to anyone who thinks, as I do, that the best miracles are not those that cramp, rather than enlarge, our understanding of anything.
[ 26. November 2010, 11:48: Message edited by: pimple ]
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
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Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
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Posted
Pimple, have you actually seen any dead people? I haven't, but have been told by people who have that they look quite different to how they did when they were alive.
What you've done here is to take a story, disbelieve it on the basis of on tiny inconsistency that isn't even a problem if you believe the whole story (if Jesus did raise Lazarus, his sickness wasn't ultimately unto death), and then invent an entirely new story based on far less evidence, which requires that Lazarus' family bury him before he's dead, the sick man survives four days without water and is then fully conscious when the delusional Jesus turns up and rolls away the stone.
Come to think of it, do you have any brothers? I have two, and I'm certainly not going to shut them in a cave while there's still a microgram of hope that they're still alive.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Awk! What was I thinking? Of course Bethany is a couple miles from Jerusalem. Which just shows you should never go to post when you've got turkey on the brain.
The comment about the Mediterranean climate still stands, though. The presence or absence of the Sea of Galilee pales in the neighborhood of the Med.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I have DS, and they do. PDQ. And pimple, Lazarus was a rotting corpse.
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Love wins
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
Martin. Pax.
Dinghy Sailor. Yes I have, several - seen them alive, seen them die, seen them dead. Seen one or two some time after death. I understand what you're saying, believe me.
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
Pimple, have you actually seen any dead people? I haven't, but have been told by people who have that they look quite different to how they did when they were alive.
Yup. Changes in the composition of the body take place within hours of death. There are certain muscular failures, lack of involuntary reactions, that can look like death, but you can't fake things like a corpse's blood draining down to the bottom of the corpse.
(Read "Stiff" by Mary Roach.)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
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Posted
So Pimple, how is your story remotely plausible?
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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Pax pimple.
Jesus left it to four days so that there could be no doubt that Lazarus was a bloating carcase.
He had to let Lazarus' sisters rot with grief to make His point.
He is the Lord of life.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
So Pimple, how is your story remotely plausible?
My story - or your caricature of it? Neither, I imagine, will ever be plausible to you. I don't have a problem with that.
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
So Pimple, how is your story remotely plausible?
My story - or your caricature of it? Neither, I imagine, will ever be plausible to you. I don't have a problem with that.
A caricature? I thought it was an accurate precis, kindly point out the problems with it please.
The basic problem with your story is that if it didn't happen as John says it happened, I find it far more plausible that John made the whole thing up than that it happened as you describe. The story stands or falls as a whole, it's far more likely to be 0% true than it is to be 50% true. With devices like Jesus waiting until Lazarus has been dead for four days, the story's seemingly been deliberately crafted so that your sort of interpretation has no hold.
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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
So Pimple, how is your story remotely plausible?
My story - or your caricature of it? Neither, I imagine, will ever be plausible to you. I don't have a problem with that.
What's the difference between his description of your narrative and yours?
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
It's an astonishing story, whichever way you look at it, and one that seems to me to be based on an actual historical event, faithfully recorded. That has been part of my position throughout this thread.
MartinPC etc. and many others believe in the re-animation of a rotting corpse by a divine miracle. Though I do not share that belief, I would no more rubbish it than I would rubbish that of a devout Muslim who believes in the bodily assumption of the Prophet into heaven, or that of an eastern ascetic seeking Nirvana.
I am not here to swap insults and I apologise for having trod in that direction already once or twice. I have never said or implied that Jesus was delusional. I initially read that as part of a vicious and unwarranted caricature of my POV. But perhaps there was a genuine misunderstanding there. Either way, my back's broad enough, I hope.
One of the chief principles of Purg discussions is "put up or shut up". I have made some attempt to put up but I think to go any further might lead me into the charnel houses of several decomposed nags. So I am content to shut up once more. All the last words are yours.
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Or, you could just answer the question.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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ByHisBlood
Shipmate
# 16018
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Posted
Originally posted by BHB > Not half as stupid as those of the 21st Century who are happy to attend and join Churches that have spiritual zombies running them and the stench of death throughout the pews.
Mousethief
quote:
is something you're competent to judge?
It certainly is and I still get to speak with those (personally) from all local denominations and many in other locations from forums such as this. I also have direct contacts with the leaders of many churches. I have been a lay-preacher since 1981.
[ 29. November 2010, 17:08: Message edited by: ByHisBlood ]
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"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him" - Romans 5:9
Posts: 220 | Registered: Nov 2010
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ByHisBlood:
Mousethief
quote:
is something you're competent to judge?
It certainly is
Oh my dear sweet Lord.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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ByHisBlood
Shipmate
# 16018
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Posted
Mousethief quote:
Oh my dear sweet Lord.
Quite, maybe that same Lord that said, "by their fruits shall ye know them", which leaves little effort required on the judgment front. If you are satisfied with the state of the churches and those in positions of responsibility then I am really pleased for you ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him" - Romans 5:9
Posts: 220 | Registered: Nov 2010
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ByHisBlood:
Mousethief quote:
Oh my dear sweet Lord.
Quite, maybe that same Lord that said, "by their fruits shall ye know them", which leaves little effort required on the judgment front. If you are satisfied with the state of the churches and those in positions of responsibility then I am really pleased for you
As a friend put it: Per Romans, we're not called to be judges, but fruit inspectors. There is a difference.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
That same Lord also said judge not, let ye be judged, and with the judgement that ye mete, so shall it be meted to you, and also something about motes and beams. And his servant paul said who are you to judge another man's servant? by his master he shall rise or fall.
I don't see that we're called to exercise judgment over anything but our own sins. I have enough trouble working out my own salvation in fear and trembling without trying to tell others what's wrong with them. Where I come from that's called spiritual arrogance.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Are you sure that your nose isn't too close to your arse BHB?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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ByHisBlood
Shipmate
# 16018
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Posted
Bullfrog quote:
As a friend put it: Per Romans, we're not called to be judges, but fruit inspectors. There is a difference.
1 Corinthians 6:2-3
“….do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
Football fans are not slow in pointing out the player who is not functioning as they should or who should not even be in the team given their performance over a period of time.
Football however is trivial compared with us functioning within the church as leaders or with other responsibilities. We should welcome the wise judgement/ encouragement/ condemnation that comes our way from time to time, if it has no foundation then what have we to worry about, yet if it has, then God bless the one that brings it before it has chance to fester and contaminate any further!
[ 29. November 2010, 23:08: Message edited by: ByHisBlood ]
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"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him" - Romans 5:9
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