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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Kerygmania: Why did Jesus not explicitly teach the doctrine of the Trinity.
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
You two exclude the Spirit from having any hand in pulling it together?
Yes. It was not the Spirit. People and organizations make mistakes. If it was the Spirit it would be consistent with the Gospels.
So do you believe in a pantheon of three? Or are Jesus and the Holy Spirit created demi-dieties under the One God?
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
So do you believe in a pantheon of three? Or are Jesus and the Holy Spirit created demi-dieties under the One God?
No pantheon of three. Jesus is God. He is the Father. He is the Holy Spirit.
The impression of three derives from the fact that there had to be some way to describe what was going on since Jesus was physically a human being on earth, and the divine was within Him. But there was never three, any more than my inner being and my body are two.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
So what went on at the baptism? Whose voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased"? Jesus's voice?
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
You two exclude the Spirit from having any hand in pulling it together?
Yes. It was not the Spirit. People and organizations make mistakes. If it was the Spirit it would be consistent with the Gospels.
Than could you please point out were the inconsistency lies? If you don't do it you are practically telling us to ignore your post.
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
No pantheon of three. Jesus is God. He is the Father. He is the Holy Spirit.
So you believe Christ had a personality disorder, then? Modalism is rational in and of itself, but given the New Testament it is utterly irrational. As Dale Tuggy writes:
quote:
Modalism has no problems at all with consistency and intelligibility, but it utterly fails as a way to read the New Testament. If modalism were true, it would be a mistake to think that the Father and the Son have a wonderful, loving, cooperative personal relationship. Rather, what we see in the gospels would really amount to a single individual (God) communicating to, relating to, and cooperating with himself in various roles, much as a human suffering from multiple personality disorder or a versatile actor does. This is a terrible reading of the New Testament, which is why nearly all Christians in all ages have (at least, officially and in their clear-headed moments) rejected modalism. The trinitarian interactions therein are not to be thought of as divine delusion, pretending, or deceit.
Source: Dale Tuggy, "The unfinished business of Trinitarian theorizing," p. 13-14 (page reference to pdf-file). Religious Studies 39: 165-183. Cambridge University Press. [Retrieved: January 30 2010]
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Hear, hear!
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
Than could you please point out were the inconsistency lies?
Easily. God is one not three. The Trinity makes Him three, whereas Jesus makes Him one.
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
So you believe Christ had a personality disorder, then? Modalism is rational in and of itself, but given the New Testament it is utterly irrational.
Not modalism. Christ is God. His language describing Father, Son and Holy Spirit is not a personality disorder, but a way of explaining how He could be God of the universe and at the same time be a growing and changing human being.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
The Nicene view that the Godhead is both One and Three in a sense that only applies to God and not created beings is more Biblically consistent to me than Jesus praying to himself as if he had an imaginary friend. To me, it's analogous to light being both wave and particle. It doesn't make common sense, but it does make sense in the realm of physics.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
The Nicene view that the Godhead is both One and Three in a sense that only applies to God and not created beings is more Biblically consistent to me than Jesus praying to himself as if he had an imaginary friend.
It's such an old argument that Christians have gotten used to it. Still, God can't be one and three. It amounts to three Gods.
It's not necessary to have Jesus praying to an imaginary friend. Instead you just need to have Jesus being increasingly glorified over the course of His lifetime.
He did not consciously rule the universe as an infant. Instead His life was a journey towards "the Father" and so He spoke as if the Father was another person whose will He did and with whom He was increasingly united. This is why He prayed to the Father.
If He was just sent as a sacrifice He could have been offered up as an infant at the temple instead of the doves.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Not modalism. Christ is God. His language describing Father, Son and Holy Spirit is not a personality disorder, but a way of explaining how He could be God of the universe and at the same time be a growing and changing human being.
When I read this I get a feeling that you haven't read the NT. Or just the parts Swedenborg allows you to read.
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004
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MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Still, God can't be one and three. It amounts to three Gods.
Bad mathematics. You are applying the mathematics of finite quantities to the infinite. Doesn't work that way.
The (infinite) set of odd numbers equals in size the (infinite) set of even numbers, without having a single number in common ... and if you add them together, the set of all numbers, both odd and even, ... has exactly the same number of members as either of the two earlier sets. In other words: one infinity plus one infinity equals one infinity, not an infinity twice as a large. 1+1=1.
That is because they are infinite. This doesn't work with finite quantities, but it works with infinite quantities, even though it is counter-intuitive. If you add two finite quantities, the sum is larger than either of the original quantities. But if you add two infinite quantities, the sum is NOT larger: A = B = (A+B). The Father = the Son = the Spirit = God. The Father and the Son together are not greater than the Father. This is how the mathematics of infinities works.
If you add one God and another God and another God, you get one God, not three: because they co-exist in all time, space, knowledge, power. This last is a doozy: if the Father wants X and the Son wants not-X, which one prevails? They can only _both_ be omnipotent if they are totally one in purpose - completely indistinguishable and one in power and will.
In fact, you cannot distinguish three Gods. There is no divine characteristic that can separate them. They are not in different places, or at different times. They don't know different things - they don't have secrets from one another that you could use to separate them. One is not stronger than the other. But human persons can be separated on the basis of time, place, knowledge, power...
Because the trinity have omniscience, they know one another's minds perfectly - like total telepathy, no privacy whatsoever. The Father can see all the Son's thoughts as the Son thinks them, and so on. Thus: perfect intimacy and unity of purpose and perfect mutual knowledge - a unity beyond all human experience.
Three divine persons, one God - that makes mathematical and logical sense. Three Gods makes no sense, it is illogical. The three are in one place (everywhere), one time (eternity), with one will, and identical power. And perfect knowledge and agreement of one another's minds. They are truly one. Not a band of fractious gods.
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MSHB: Member of the Shire Hobbit Brigade
Posts: 1522 | From: Dharawal Country | Registered: Mar 2005
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
When I read this I get a feeling that you haven't read the NT. Or just the parts Swedenborg allows you to read.
What gives you that feeling?
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
Bad mathematics. You are applying the mathematics of finite quantities to the infinite. Doesn't work that way.
If it worked any way at all it wouldn't be a mystery.
It doesn't work. Christians think of Jesus and the Father as two different beings who are mysteriously one.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
When I read this I get a feeling that you haven't read the NT. Or just the parts Swedenborg allows you to read.
What gives you that feeling?
Because the New Testament presents us with three different persons - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - who communicate amongst each other. If this is just one person Christ has a personality disorder - or her is evil, as he tries to deceive us.
Can you point out what is impossible with three persons sharing one nature?
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
MSHB, cool. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Much better than my wave/particle.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
Because the New Testament presents us with three different persons - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - who communicate amongst each other.
The New Testament presents us with a metaphor. In this metaphor the Son sits at the right hand of the Father to eternity. We know it is a metaphor because Christianity has always said that they aren't really two but one, and it would clearly be two gods if they were able to sit side by side in separate thrones.
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
Can you point out what is impossible with three persons sharing one nature?
Because three omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent beings is impossible. That would not be three persons with one nature but one person with one nature.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Says you. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
The New Testament presents us with a metaphor. In this metaphor the Son sits at the right hand of the Father to eternity. We know it is a metaphor because Christianity has always said that they aren't really two but one, and it would clearly be two gods if they were able to sit side by side in separate thrones.
So metaphors for the same have meaningful relationships - and communicate - with each other, then? I'm sorry, but this just won't cut it. If the Trinity is false we are left with a highly disturbed person.
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Because three omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent beings is impossible. That would not be three persons with one nature but one person with one nature..
Why?
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004
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Circuit Rider
Ship's Itinerant
# 13088
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Posted
At the baptism of the Lord ...
Jesus comes up out of the water after baptism.
The Spirit descends in bodily form as a dove.
The Father says, "This is my beloved Son."
Jesus didn't explicitly SAY it, but he sure experienced it.
At the last supper ...
Jesus said, "I and the Father are one."
Jesus also said, "I must go to the Father. I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you."
Jesus first says he will send the comforter, and then says it is he who comes.
I view the Trinity as REVELATIONS of God:
God the FATHER, creator, sustainer.
God the SON, incarnate in human form (seen in both testaments)
God the HOLY SPIRIT, working grace onto, into, and through our lives.
FWIW.
[ 31. January 2010, 21:09: Message edited by: Circuit Rider ]
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I felt my heart strangely warmed ... and realised I had spilt hot coffee all over myself.
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
Freddy, The discussion suggests you are just reading your theology back into the scripture. Now We all do this to a degree but there has to be a point where in all honesty, metaphor and allegory will not stretch. If we insist on our versions as only one then do we not take all objectivity out of the Biblical revelation?
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
"Nevertheless not my will but thy will be done." -- how does this parse on your reading, Freddy?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
"Nevertheless not my will but thy will be done." -- how does this parse on your reading, Freddy?
Jesus always obeyed the divinity within Him, which He called "Father." His outer humanity became, over the course of a lifetime of obeying the Father's will, united with the Father.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Freddy, The discussion suggests you are just reading your theology back into the scripture. Now We all do this to a degree but there has to be a point where in all honesty, metaphor and allegory will not stretch. If we insist on our versions as only one then do we not take all objectivity out of the Biblical revelation?
The point is to find an explanation that fits with ALL Scripture. The Trinity fits with some Scripture. The Penal Substitutionary Atonement fits with some Scripture.
But the Trinity denies the Shema and PSA denies a loving God.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
So metaphors for the same have meaningful relationships - and communicate - with each other, then? I'm sorry, but this just won't cut it.
Yes it does. Unless you think that Christ and the Father literally sit side by side on thrones in heaven you are agreeing that the description is metaphoric. It isn't meant to be taken literally, but to provide a figurative description that is easily understood.
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
If the Trinity is false we are left with a highly disturbed person.
It isn't false, it just isn't meant to be taken literally. There is a Father, Son and Holy Spirit in Scripture, but they are not separate persons, any more than "God" and "Lord" are separate, or "my Rock" and "my Savior" are separate. They describe the visible God compared with the visible, or the power of God compared with His wisdom. He has many names, but only one person.
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Because three omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent beings is impossible. That would not be three persons with one nature but one person with one nature..
Why?
By definition there can be only one of these. If you want to try to think outside of that box it's fine with me.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
The point is to find an explanation that fits with ALL Scripture. The Trinity fits with some Scripture. The Penal Substitutionary Atonement fits with some Scripture.
I agree.
But I don't think your model fits with ALL scripture, anymore than the Trinity does. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Could it be that truth is multiform? *Gasp* ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
"Nevertheless not my will but thy will be done." -- how does this parse on your reading, Freddy?
Jesus always obeyed the divinity within Him, which He called "Father." His outer humanity became, over the course of a lifetime of obeying the Father's will, united with the Father.
No it didn't. This was at the end, and they weren't united, clearly -- he says as much flat out. And about the most important decision of his entire life.
[ 01. February 2010, 02:03: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
This was at the end, and they weren't united, clearly -- he says as much flat out. And about the most important decision of his entire life.
The darkest time is just before the dawn. The cross was the final and most terrible struggle in Jesus' glorification, and it therefore included an appearance of great and final separation from the Father, even abandonment.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
But I don't think your model fits with ALL scripture, anymore than the Trinity does.
It is important that it fit ALL Scripture. If not then look for a better model.
The assumption here, and it may or may not be the truth, is that Scripture is authoritative in these kinds of issues.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
But I don't think your model fits with ALL scripture, anymore than the Trinity does.
It is important that it fit ALL Scripture. If not then look for a better model.
The assumption here, and it may or may not be the truth, is that Scripture is authoritative in these kinds of issues.
I assume:
1) Scripture is authoritative
2) God cannot speak to humanity in a vacuum (i.e. without thoughts, culture, worldviews, subjectivity, limitations of understanding and perception etc. etc. etc.)
So one model cannot possibly fit all scripture. And thank God for that.
I'm struggling to put your particular brand of Christology in a box but I don't think I've heard it much before (except perhaps in the Monophysites?). But I did join the discussion late so perhaps I'm just confused....
IMO, if Jesus is God and not human, it makes a mockery of 99.5% of the NT
If Jesus is human and God, then you're talking about the Trinity. I don't see the distinction.
If you believe humanity and God are the same, but just in different forms....well that's different again....
If there is no ontological distinction between Jesus as a human and Jesus as God, then we are all essentially God
If you maintain the distinction, you have to live with a nonsensical idea. 1 plus 1 does not equal one.
I do however agree with you that the Trinity is metaphorical. And I think a number of the world's brilliant theologians would agree when pressed. Starting with St. Augustine....and most recently, John Macquarrie, regis prof of Oxford.
But hey, we're not supposed to talk about this stuff. Its supposed to upset the laity. (Or was it the clergy?)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
[ 01. February 2010, 13:04: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I assume:
1) Scripture is authoritative
2) God cannot speak to humanity in a vacuum (i.e. without thoughts, culture, worldviews, subjectivity, limitations of understanding and perception etc. etc. etc.)
So one model cannot possibly fit all scripture.
If all Scripture has one source in God, that is, if God is its true author, then there must be one model that fits all Scripture.
Anyway, I believe mine does. This isn't an issue for anyone in my denomination.
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I'm struggling to put your particular brand of Christology in a box but I don't think I've heard it much before (except perhaps in the Monophysites?).
Swedenborgian.
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
If Jesus is human and God, then you're talking about the Trinity. I don't see the distinction.
Jesus is both human and God. He is God made visble. Or as Paul said: "In Him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I do however agree with you that the Trinity is metaphorical. And I think a number of the world's brilliant theologians would agree when pressed. Starting with St. Augustine....and most recently, John Macquarrie, regis prof of Oxford.
Thanks. I expect that everyone actually agrees with this - at least once they think about it or are aware of the impossible imagery associated with the Trinity.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
"Nevertheless not my will but thy will be done." -- how does this parse on your reading, Freddy?
Jesus always obeyed the divinity within Him, which He called "Father." His outer humanity became, over the course of a lifetime of obeying the Father's will, united with the Father.
So you're like a non-trinitarian Nestorian, then? (Remember: the Bible tells that the Logos became flesh; not that the Logos were two persons.)
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
But the Trinity denies the Shema.
Why?
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
It isn't false, it just isn't meant to be taken literally. There is a Father, Son and Holy Spirit in Scripture, but they are not separate persons, any more than "God" and "Lord" are separate, or "my Rock" and "my Savior" are separate. They describe the visible God compared with the visible, or the power of God compared with His wisdom. He has many names, but only one person.
Which means Christ has a personality disorder. If we assume that you are right in that Christ is one divine person with a divine person within himself we still have one person left. That would mean that Christ has atleast two personalities - and thus a personality disorder. Names and 'metaphors' cannot communicate with each other.
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
By definition there can be only one of these.
Says who?
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
So you're like a non-trinitarian Nestorian, then? (Remember: the Bible tells that the Logos became flesh; not that the Logos were two persons.)
Christ was not two persons. More like, as in the Athanasian Creed:
quote:
For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ;
The Logos was the voice of God, which became flesh in Christ. He is therefore the visible God, in whom dwells the invisible God as a soul in the body.
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
But the Trinity denies the Shema.
Why?
Because it is not one God.
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
If we assume that you are right in that Christ is one divine person with a divine person within himself we still have one person left. That would mean that Christ has atleast two personalities - and thus a personality disorder. Names and 'metaphors' cannot communicate with each other.
He is not one person inside of another. He is one person, the divine within Him being like the soul in the body. It does not take a personality disorder to be in touch with your inner being.
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
By definition there can be only one of these.
Says who?
It's the "omni" part of omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence. But don't take my word for it.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
If Jesus is human and God, then you're talking about the Trinity. I don't see the distinction.
Jesus is both human and God. He is God made visble. Or as Paul said: "In Him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."
If you believe Jesus is both human and God, how do your views differ from the Trinity?
If he is God in human form, or God only pretending to be a man, then he is not fully human and this contradicts 99.5% of the New Testament.
How can you say this view fits all of scripture? Quite the opposite.
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
I think that Freddy (and presumably Swedenborg, being a scientist) can't get past the semantics and conceptual limitations of the created world. Therefore anything outside the normal framework must be metaphor.
As far as the Trinity goes, personally, I can believe six impossible things before breakfast. Or at least Three. Just like a scientist can shoot a single particle through one slit yet get a wave that goes through two slits and cause a wave interference pattern. Impossible but true.
ETA: And Swedenborg only knew Newtonian physics, of course, a very absolute view of the natural world, very Enlightenment.
[ 02. February 2010, 02:49: Message edited by: Lyda*Rose ]
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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W Hyatt
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# 14250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
If you believe Jesus is both human and God, how do your views differ from the Trinity?
I seem to remember something in the Athanasian Creed about the Father and the Holy Spirit being separate persons - three in total.
quote:
How can you say this view fits all of scripture? Quite the opposite.
All that is needed to fit scripture is the idea that Jesus was born with a limited, finite human mind and body to start with, but instead of having a normal soul like the rest of us have, his soul was the infinite Divine itself. Over the course of his life up through the resurrection, he gradually and successively glorified that human to make it perfect and divine, completely united to the infinite. No need to resort to dividing the person of God into three.
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Therefore anything outside the normal framework must be metaphor.
How does the idea of a flesh and blood person being the creator of the universe qualify either as a metaphor or as being within the normal framework?
quote:
As far as the Trinity goes, personally, I can believe six impossible things before breakfast. Or at least Three. Just like a scientist can shoot a single particle through one slit yet get a wave that goes through two slits and cause a wave interference pattern. Impossible but true.
That still sounds to me like you're saying you believe it because it's impossible. I know that's not actually why you believe it; it just doesn't make for a persuasive argument. Neither does comparing the size of two infinite sets because no matter how interesting it is as set theory, the Athanasian Creed is not about sets or mathematics. (Besides, if you consider the set of all real numbers - the "omni" set - it is not only infinite, it's bigger than the other two sets combined. ) These comparisons might serve well as illustrations of the concept, but they utterly fail as proofs or even demonstrations.
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
What other two sets?
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Yes, yes that's true. Although "infinitely bigger" in transfinite numbers is a tautology.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
That still sounds to me like you're saying you believe it because it's impossible. I know that's not actually why you believe it; it just doesn't make for a persuasive argument. Neither does comparing the size of two infinite sets because no matter how interesting it is as set theory, the Athanasian Creed is not about sets or mathematics.
The funny thing is, I'll bet she knew that.
quote:
These comparisons might serve well as illustrations of the concept, but they utterly fail as proofs or even demonstrations.
Strangely, she wasn't offering them as proofs or demonstrations. So that's quite irrelevant.
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Evensong
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# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
[QUOTE] How can you say this view fits all of scripture? Quite the opposite.
All that is needed to fit scripture is the idea that Jesus was born with a limited, finite human mind and body to start with, but instead of having a normal soul like the rest of us have, his soul was the infinite Divine itself. Over the course of his life up through the resurrection, he gradually and successively glorified that human to make it perfect and divine, completely united to the infinite. No need to resort to dividing the person of God into three.
If he had a human mind and the soul of God at birth, he wasn't human. Human beings are heart, mind and soul.
If it was a case of God subsuming the human part of Jesus over time, well then it becomes a case of spiritual possession. *eeeeew*
Nope. Doesn't wash
[ 02. February 2010, 05:26: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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Freddy
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# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
If you believe Jesus is both human and God, how do your views differ from the Trinity?
My views differ from the Trinity because instead of three persons there is one person, namely the Lord God Jesus Christ, the Creator, Redeemer and Savior of the world, in whom is the Divine Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Father is God as He exists invisibly above all human understanding. The Son is God as He can be known and loved by humanity. The Holy Spirit is the Divine reaching out into the life of every person, enlightening and guiding them.
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
If he is God in human form, or God only pretending to be a man, then he is not fully human and this contradicts 99.5% of the New Testament.
He was not pretending to be a man, He was truly born on earth as a man, but with a divine soul.
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
How can you say this view fits all of scripture? Quite the opposite.
It fits Scripture perfectly and contradicts no Scripture. But a Trinity of three persons contradicts the idea of one God.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
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# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I think that Freddy (and presumably Swedenborg, being a scientist) can't get past the semantics and conceptual limitations of the created world. Therefore anything outside the normal framework must be metaphor.
So you think that Jesus really does sit beside the Father in heaven? This isn't meant figuratively?
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
ETA: And Swedenborg only knew Newtonian physics, of course, a very absolute view of the natural world, very Enlightenment.
The point isn't the absolute nature of God. I'm sure we all agree that this is above human comprehension. The point is how our understanding of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit of Scripture reflects that reality.
Quantum mechanics may give us a way of appreciating that things are not what they seem, but the issue here is how we think about and approach God. If our conception of Him is mistaken, as opposed to being merely limited, then this inhibits our ability to worship. The Trinity of three persons is mistaken because people then separate God and Jesus and think in terms of two, or three, divine beings.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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Jamat
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# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
My views differ from the Trinity because instead of three persons there is one person, namely the Lord God Jesus Christ, the Creator, Redeemer and Savior of the world, in whom is the Divine Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Father is God as He exists invisibly above all human understanding. The Son is God as He can be known and loved by humanity. The Holy Spirit is the Divine reaching out into the life of every person, enlightening and guiding them.
Thank you for explaining Freddy. I see where you are coming from. However, I don't see how your construction explains how Jesus prayed and claimed a relationship to the Father in the gospels. If what you are saying is right, he was just praying and relating to another aspect of himself rather than a real, non metaphoric, entity which he,in his humanity, claimed to be submitting to and obeying.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
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k-mann
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# 8490
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Christ was not two persons. More like, as in the Athanasian Creed:
quote:
For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ;
So he had three personalities, then?
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Because it is not one God?
Why?
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
It's the "omni" part of omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence. But don't take my word for it.
Trust me; I won't.
My main point, which you don't seem to get, is that given the data of the New Testament we could either infer a Trinity or we must say that Christ has a personality disorder. If God was 'his inner being' it would still be himself. And what about the baptism of Christ?
quote:
Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened, and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, “You are my Son, the Beloved; with you I am well pleased.” (Luke 3,21-22)
Here we see not that Christ experiences something, but that the people experience three persons acting at the same time. If this was indeed only one person we must infer that Christ had a personality disorder. Or, perhaps, that he - as God - was evil. (He tricked people into believing falsehood.)
You can say what you want; the New Testament and modalism doesn't go together. (You claim that your view isn't modalist; but the fact is that your view is identical to that which is called 'modalism.' If it quacks like a duck...)
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Freddy
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# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
If he had a human mind and the soul of God at birth, he wasn't human. Human beings are heart, mind and soul.
So you think that Jesus as to His soul was not God?
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
If it was a case of God subsuming the human part of Jesus over time, well then it becomes a case of spiritual possession. *eeeeew*
That's a pretty terrible way to look at it. Jesus did not have a human father, but the Divine itself was His Father. So He inherited humanity from His mother and divinity from His Father. Throughout the course of His lifetime, through obeying the will of the Father as opposed to the dictates of the world, He was glorified. He was not "possessed" but willingly did the Father's will, and went to the Father. this is why He described the Father as in Him:
quote:
John 10:38 "...though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.”
John 14:10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves."
I guess I can see how that might sound like possession, but I think that the idea that the Father was in the Son is clear. That the Son was also in the Father describes their unity.
So do they sit side by side in heaven, or are they within one another?
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
So do they sit side by side in heaven, or are they within one another?
The scriptures are crystal clear on this. Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father.
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Freddy
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# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
I don't see how your construction explains how Jesus prayed and claimed a relationship to the Father in the gospels. If what you are saying is right, he was just praying and relating to another aspect of himself rather than a real, non metaphoric, entity which he,in his humanity, claimed to be submitting to and obeying.
We talk about getting in touch with our inner child. Jesus was getting in touch with His inner divinity, which He described as the Father within Him. When He says "I and My Father are one" and "He who has seen Me has seen the Father" He is not speaking as if the Father was someone other than Him.
Jesus' prayers to the Father are the only way we can think of His inner processes in His struggle. In the torture of these combats God seemed far away from Him, the dictates of His divinity and of His humanity diverged greatly. But in the end He did the will of the Father and commended His spirit into the Father's hands.
[ 02. February 2010, 06:19: Message edited by: Freddy ]
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
So do they sit side by side in heaven, or are they within one another?
The scriptures are crystal clear on this. Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father.
Then you really do worship two beings. I can't believe that anyone doesn't see this as a metaphor.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
I don't see how your construction explains how Jesus prayed and claimed a relationship to the Father in the gospels. If what you are saying is right, he was just praying and relating to another aspect of himself rather than a real, non metaphoric, entity which he,in his humanity, claimed to be submitting to and obeying.
We talk about getting in touch with our inner child. Jesus was getting in touch with His inner divinity, which He described as the Father within Him. When He says "I and My Father are one" and "He who has seen Me has seen the Father" He is not speaking as if the Father was someone other than Him.
Jesus' prayers to the Father are the only way we can think of His inner processes in His struggle. In the torture of these combats God seemed far away from Him, the dictates of His divinity and of His humanity diverged greatly. But in the end He did the will of the Father and commended His spirit into the Father's hands.
This seems inconsistent to me. You say his prayers are inner processes. If God seemed far from him in his struggles, you are suggesting as Evensong remarked, a schizophrenic God. The Trinity is in fact a mystery, yet to deny Jesus had a God to pray to is to reduce his high priestly prayer in John to rhetoric. In effect, you make his prayers lies as according to you, they are not what they seem.
Is it not easier to simply accept that Christ was God and the Father is God and their oneness is incomprehensible but a fact nonetheless?
Incidentally, what do you make of the plural pronouns in Genesis? "Lest the man ..become like one of US"
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
My main point, which you don't seem to get, is that given the data of the New Testament we could either infer a Trinity or we must say that Christ has a personality disorder. If God was 'his inner being' it would still be himself.
Jesus prayed to God as if He were another, but He also said that the Father was in Him. This isn't a personality disorder, it's the way that the Gospels describe what was going on with Him.
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
And what about the baptism of Christ?
Christ's baptism portrayed for all to see the relationship of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. In the Bible we often see deeply symbolic metaphors miraculously realized in stunning events such as this. The display in no way means that the Trinity is not within Christ as He later says.
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
You can say what you want; the New Testament and modalism doesn't go together. (You claim that your view isn't modalist; but the fact is that your view is identical to that which is called 'modalism.' If it quacks like a duck...)
You don't know what modalism is. From Wikipedia:
quote:
In Christianity, Sabellianism, (also known as modalism, modalistic monarchianism, or modal monarchism) is the nontrinitarian belief that the Heavenly Father, Resurrected Son and Holy Spirit are different modes or aspects of one God, as perceived by the believer, rather than three distinct persons in God Himself.
This is not what I believe. Rather, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are realities, not just distinctions perceived by the believer. From the same article:
quote:
Both Michael Servetus and Emanuel Swedenborg have been interpreted as being proponents of Modalism. Neither, however, described God as appearing in three modes. It is not necessary to describe God in three modes to be Oneness. Both describe God as the One Divine Person, Jesus Christ, who has a Divine Soul of Love, Divine Mind of Truth, and Divine Body of Activity. Jesus, through a process of uniting his human form to the Divine, became entirely One with His Divine Soul from the Father to the point of having no distinction of personality.
That's not modalism.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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