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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: Park this
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Oh, and I agree with Ingo's points. Although I note, with great irony, that much of the evidence for transgender people having brains that match their claimed gender (opposite to their body's physical appearance) actually relies on the statistically significant differences between males and females, and Ingo is a Shipmate who vociferously denies the reality of the transgender experience.
So yeah, men and women think differently. You can tell how they think just by looking at their bodies. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
Over the weekend, I was at a social gathering where the host cornered me in the kitchen. He made a semi-pass at me. When I failed to return said pass, mentioning his wife (a longstanding friend of mine, recently married to this guy), he claimed his was an "open" marriage. This was news to me, and I think would be news to my friend.
He then trotted out the standard trope regarding refused passes from women: that I must be a lesbian.
So I made the standard trope-response about merely being choosy, and squeezed past him to join a group in another room.
A little later, I overheard him explaining to others about what a feminist he was, because his wife had hyphenated her name when they married (he, interestingly, did not follow suit), and that he had "let her do that."
Sometimes I despair. The only men I've encountered lately who are not idiots like the one described above have been on this Ship.
I'm not hopeful about the durability of my friend's marriage, either.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
So tell me, all you great and powerful parkers of cars and throwers of baseballs, what the fuck can YOU do?
Park cars and throw baseballs, of course. I also cook a mean curry and analyse data like it ain't no thing.
I hope it has real man heat rather than wimpy girl heat. ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
A few years back when my daughter was in Venture scouts they had a curry making evening. One of the male scouts suggested a chilli eating competition. She accepted. The result was that a frail looking girl won easily. The male scout was having a lot of problems with the heat, and they were only jalapeños.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Ooh Porridge, how horrid.
A friend deals with that sort of behaviour as follows:
1. Says to the would-be straying husband "Gosh, how decent of you: now XX won't have to give up on good-looking men. I'll have to tell (and here insert male name of choice) because he was rather down when he heard XX had married but if there's still hope..."
2. Go over to wife and say loudly "Have you got a love interest at the moment or is it just the wine talking when YY tried to put his hand up my skirt?"
You may fall out with the wife for a while but... wouldn't you rather know sooner than later that you'd married a jerk?
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
L'Organist: quote:
The answer is to bring up CHILDREN, not boys or girls.
Yes, and it's bloody difficult when toy manufacturers, the media, the clothes shops, the school (who ought to know better by now) and the other parents and children in the village are all fighting against you.
At least, that's what it often feels like.
In other news, my husband's uncle once organised a wine-tasting competition for his friends. Being a wine buff he expected to win.
My mother-in-law won hands down. I think he'd have been annoyed whoever else won, but it was particularly galling for him that she did because she's FEMALE and cheerfully admitted she didn't know anything about wine!
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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BessLane
Shipmate
# 15176
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Posted
I'm not girly by any stretch of the imagination. I can change my own oil, replace a cracked toilet, do most basic home-repair tasks, field dress and butcher a deer and break up a bar fight. However, I am also quite lazy. If some well-meaning man wants to do any or all of the above tasks for me, I don't really care what his reasons are, I'm just happy not to be covered with used motor oil, deer guts or what have you. If a man wants to think I need him to do these things rather than I prefer not to do them myself then let him. I'll be in the easy chair watching the game, drinking a cold beer, waiting for him to make me a sandwich when he's done ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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It's all on me and I won't tell it.
formerly BessHiggs
Posts: 1388 | From: Yorkville, TN | Registered: Sep 2009
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Ingo is a Shipmate who vociferously denies the reality of the transgender experience.
Bollocks.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Starbug:
Personally, I think the whole 'lets make it smaller and pink so that girls can use it' thing is patronising and pathetic.
Have you noticed that anything pink - razors, Wellington boots, combs, whatever item might be otherwise unisex - is always more expensive than the non-pink versions?
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I worked at an Easter Seals Camp (summers, disabled children) in the 1970s. Most of the counsellors were women, 10% of the staff were men. When I got to university in fall, we all went to university pub. They had a chug contest. 3 of the counsellors, big farm girls, and I entered (I was drafted, they were keen). We won, and it wasn't due to my performance. The competition was football players, business students, etc. So I personally know women can drink beer better than men.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BessHiggs:
If a man wants to think I need him to do these things rather than I prefer not to do them myself then let him. I'll be in the easy chair watching the game, drinking a cold beer, waiting for him to make me a sandwich when he's done
I on the other hand would fight him over it, to the death probably. I refuse to have my daughter grow up thinking that she's a cute little sweetie thing and men will take care of her. I know you don't think that, and if you have children, they probably don't either. But I truly believe it's gotten bad enough to be a vital (literally) issue in our society. If our girls see us letting men do the dirty work, they won't bother to learn how to do it themselves, or not as well as we did. So many women are learning exactly that. (I strongly recommend Miss Representation, to everyone who hasn't seen it.)
Actually, I push so hard toward tough girls that lately I find myself having to remind my daughter that I do think it just fine for a woman to be feminine too. Already (5) she seems to think you have to be one or the other. Clearly I need to show her more ass-kicking dress wearers.
[ 18. September 2013, 15:54: Message edited by: Gwai ]
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Ingo is a Shipmate who vociferously denies the reality of the transgender experience.
Bollocks.
Two errors for the price of one.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Ingo is a Shipmate who vociferously denies the reality of the transgender experience.
Bollocks.
Silly orfeo. He just thinks they will burn in Hell for for violating God's rules by acting on the built-in instructions God gave them.
[ 18. September 2013, 16:21: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
What goes on my nerves is this over-the-top defensiveness about any possible advantage men might actually have over women. Given that men and women are biologically distinct, there are bound to be some. And yes, there are bound to be some going the other way as well. Chill.
Just as soon as the society I live in achieves gender equality, I will chill.
In the meantime, if you're really having trouble with your nerves, I suggest you lay down with a cold cloth on your forehead and wait till your hysteria passes.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
So I personally know women can drink beer better than men.
quote:
Alcohol Alert From NIAAA: ...
Gender. Women absorb and metabolize alcohol differently from men. They have higher BAC's after consuming the same amount of alcohol as men and are more susceptible to alcoholic liver disease, heart muscle damage (8), and brain damage (9). The difference in BAC's between women and men has been attributed to women's smaller amount of body water, likened to dropping the same amount of alcohol into a smaller pail of water (10). An additional factor contributing to the difference in BAC's may be that women have lower activity of the alcohol metabolizing enzyme ADH in the stomach, causing a larger proportion of the ingested alcohol to reach the blood. The combination of these factors may render women more vulnerable than men to alcohol-induced liver and heart damage (11-16).
The Blood Alcohol Concentration (BAC) is of course also tied to the behavioural effects, so basically women do get drunk considerably faster than men. Concerning the "smaller pail of water" effect: people have about 80 ml of blood per kilogram of body weight. So all other things being equal, somebody with twice the body weight can drink roughly twice the amount of alcohol before being as drunk.
Also, practically speaking, there just is no real contest here. The quantity and speed of female beer drinking in public is severely limited by the queues in front of their toilets...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Starbug
Shipmate
# 15917
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Have you noticed that anything pink - razors, Wellington boots, combs, whatever item might be otherwise unisex - is always more expensive than the non-pink versions?
Oh, yes. Which is why I always buy the non-pink versions. It's bad enough being patronised, without having to pay extra for it.
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“Oh the pointing again. They're screwdrivers! What are you going to do? Assemble a cabinet at them?” ― The Day of the Doctor
Posts: 1189 | From: West of the New Forest | Registered: Sep 2010
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
OK, maybe women can't park as well as men, and driving test fails show this to be so.
Once the examiner (or the instructor, or another responsible adult) has been removed however things appear to change. Can someone explain the reasons why motor insurance premiums for young men are so much higher?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
So all other things being equal, somebody with twice the body weight can drink roughly twice the amount of alcohol before being as drunk.
All of which is utterly irrelevant. The issue was the ability of a few women to drink quickly, not the ability of another group of women to stay sober.
I do wonder about even the most intelligent people at times.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
When I did A'Levels there were two girls in my year that did physics. That is out of about forty.
Some twenty years later I was talking to teachers and I discovered the majority of physics A'Level students were then girls.
Something has changed and I do not think it is the relatively innate intelligence of girls with respect to boys.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Can someone explain the reasons why motor insurance premiums for young men are so much higher?
And thanks to political correctness and equal opportunities, they're now the same for young women. And women of all ages are having to pay more.
As the insurance man said to me on the phone when I rang to ask why my premiums had gone up by £11 a month, women are usually safer drivers, and young men are usually the ones that have the most accidents, but we're stuck with this new legislation.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Starbug:
As well as all the stereotypes Comet mentioned ( ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) ), can I also add to the list pink power tools?
My favourite cordless drill on a boat I used to be Bosun on was pink.
We bought it in a spirit of irony because all the full-time refit crew were female, and it was on offer, and it cost the same as the other sensible coloured ones, and it was going to be an extra one for refit. Turned out it was so good that I preferred it to the little Makita cordless one that had been my go-to before.
I was saying this one night when out for a friend's birthday where I only knew her and one other person, and I was surrounded by girls talking about how much they liked pink things. I happened to join in by mentioning my favourite drill at just the time there was a lull in the conversation... There was a moment of quiet then a rather incredulous "You have a favourite drill..?" ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
so much to address, so little time.
IngoB - you're talking trends based on physiological differences, and that I'll grant you. but not every woman is smaller than every man. generally, men can put away more booze than women. in practice, though, there are plenty of men who can't hold their liquor and plenty of women who can drink any man under the table. (for the record, I am not one of them) a former co-worker of mine is 6'3". taller than most men. she also drinks like a fish. I'd put her toe to toe with any man I've ever met on the drinking stakes. only I'd step back 'cause she also starts indiscriminately throwing punches about 7 tallboys in and she leaves all these boys on the floor and it gets messy. (Gwai - she also always wears only skirts and considers "crafting" her main hobby. I wouldn't consider her a good role model for the girlchild, though. we can find you others who aren't quite so violent)
The physical differences part illustrates my issue. Generally, men are stronger and have more mass than women. But the woman who is bigger than many men is not so rare as to be a freak of nature, we all know a few. and there your generalizations don't work. further, plenty of us tiny people are stronger than we look (I can out-benchpress many men I know who are not weight lifters. I'm not even close to "stronger than any man" but I'm comfortable claiming that I'm stronger than many men, especially in first world society.) similarly, you can't judge based on size. when people have tried to guess my weight, they are off by 30-50 pounds. Yes, that's right, folks. I'm dense. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
just like the physical differences, you can perhaps say that men are generally more likely to get mathematics. But again, there's enough women who buck the trend that it's generally useless. As anoesis says, and Kelly illustrated before, we really can't disentangle the actual physiological differences versus the cultural influence.
My daughter was a whiz at math all the way through to tenth grade (age 15). That year she had a teacher who was blatantly sexist and racist. He told me he didn't want to demand too much of her since AK Natives generally struggle so much with math. So he lowered his standards for her, accompanied with all sorts of language that made it sound like he was being kind. She felt disenfranchised, gave up, barely passed with a very low grade, and now thinks of herself as bad at math. (thanks in part to me, he was fired.) that one "well meaning" teacher, who was going on "trends" and thought he was being kind, influenced her negatively so much that he cancelled out her first 15 years of positive influence.
trends and generalizations are useless. they may look fine on paper, but they don't address cause and they aren't really enough information to base any set of judgements on. I'd put my firearms skills up against most of the men on the Ship*, not because my chromosomes make me inherently better at loading, cleaning and firing, but because my lifestyle and upbringing made it necessary that I know my revolvers from my bolt-actions. I'd put solid money on Ruth's parallel parking skills up against any man from my neck of the woods, because she lives in a world where she has to become the expert.
*not all. I'm not putting myself up against the military guys. maybe my wildlife stalking skills. maybe speed-skinning.... but then, Irish Lord and Carex may well be able to beat me on those. Not because they're dudes, but because they're from this world up here.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Carex
Shipmate
# 9643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
.... but then, Irish Lord and Carex may well be able to beat me on those. Not because they're dudes, but because they're from this world up here.
Certainly not me. In spite of being male I have no interest in hunting or firearms. Used to enjoy fishing, but got spoiled out on Prince of Wales Island when the salmon were so thick you couldn't see the bottom in 3 feet of water. And my tracking skills are getting pretty rusty.
But I can bake sourdough bread over a campfire, sew by hand or on a machine, graft trees, do the laundry, spin and weave wool, perform Danish folk dances, run miles through the forest to find a hidden radio transmitter, and other critical skills in the modern age.
Posts: 1425 | Registered: Jun 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
When I did A'Levels there were two girls in my year that did physics. That is out of about forty.
Some twenty years later I was talking to teachers and I discovered the majority of physics A'Level students were then girls.
Something has changed and I do not think it is the relatively innate intelligence of girls with respect to boys.
Jengie
This pattern is not just with your experience. Girls and women are achieving more as a group than boys and men academically to the point that there are discussions of boys being 'left behind'. There is still enough within group variation such that the between group variation is not that important, but the between group variation is increasing for the past perhaps 3 to 5 decades. (By this I mean that the differences between girls is more than the differences between the girls group and the boys group.)
The only real tangible thing boys can do better than girls is write words with their pee in the snow. Though there are now contrivances for women to use to pee the same way: The "Freshette. Thus, just like wearing contact lenses or spectacles for vision troubles, simple things like this may be adapted to.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Carex
Shipmate
# 9643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
The only real tangible thing boys can do better than girls is write words with their pee in the snow. Though there are now contrivances for women to use to pee the same way: The "Freshette.
While the Freshette, Lady J, and other such devices are quite handy for women who, for example, need to pee into a bottle rather than battling the hoard of rats in the hotel loo in the middle of the night, they don't provide sufficient water pressure to allow for precise letter formation in the snow, at least not large enough to read from a distance.
Posts: 1425 | Registered: Jun 2005
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Where I live, men can't pee their names in the snow any better than women can.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Eigon
Shipmate
# 4917
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Posted
Back in the 1950s, the archaeologist Mortimer Wheeler used to insist that any students going on a dig with him had to pass the following test - they had to be able to shovel dirt and throw the shovelful into a wheelbarrow placed 20 feet away. This was to weed out the female students, so the chaps could all go off together without worrying about being polite for the ladies.
When I was an archaeologist in the 1980s, the dig I was on set up the same test for a bit of fun - so I know that, back then, I was perfectly capable of going on one of Mortimer Wheeler's digs!
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Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
Posts: 3710 | From: Hay-on-Wye, town of books | Registered: Aug 2003
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
...
I'm not hopeful about the durability of my friend's marriage, either.
You say that like it's a bad thing....
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I'm rather late coming to this thread, but when I read the OP I immediately thought 'My God, that girl's got balls'.
And I didn't mean the physical sort, either.
Female or male, time people stood up for the skill set they have.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
trends and generalizations are useless. they may look fine on paper, but they don't address cause and they aren't really enough information to base any set of judgements on.
Trends and generalizations are not useless. They are useful as trends and generalizations.
My first PhD student in my new place of work is about to start. It is an Italian woman. I selected her for my stipend because she beat the competition on skills, in particular in applied maths. Her competitors were all men. I'm not a perfect human being, but I am a professional scientist. If you are a phosphorous slug from Betelgeuse, but out-think the competition, then you will get the jobs I have to offer and will be first author on our papers.
So yeah, I get the point about treating people as individuals. I practice it. I have always practiced it in my professional life. That's why I feel free to be annoyed at all this blathering about women champion drinkers. Yeah, sure, there will be some. But that does not change the entirely valid trends and generalizations, which for example mean that one should advise women in general to drink less alcohol than men if they want to stay healthy and safe.
[ 18. September 2013, 21:19: Message edited by: IngoB ]
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
All the studies I've seen about women and alcohol say that women absorb and metabolize alcohol differently than men regardless of size. Women have less body water than men of similar body weight, so that women achieve higher concentrations of alcohol in the blood after drinking equivalent amounts of alcohol, even if they weigh the same as the men. Back in the day, Mr. T. and I would usually drink seven rum&cokes a piece before we wandered home. I weighed 110lbs and he weighed almost double that. The next day he would have a headache and upset stomach. I would have neither but would feel like I was going to die. From what I know now about my oxygen saturation scores, I probably was.
I'm glad to see women breaking gender stereotypes and doing what ever the heck they feel like doing but I kind of resent the idea that a woman who rides motorcycles or hunts deer is somehow cooler than a woman who embroiders and takes dance lessons. Just because it's considered a "man thing" doesn't make it better. I'm not going to start burping in public just to prove I'm a feminist. Some things are traditionally "man" things because most women traditionally had more sense than to do them.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
What goes on my nerves is this over-the-top defensiveness about any possible advantage men might actually have over women. Given that men and women are biologically distinct, there are bound to be some. And yes, there are bound to be some going the other way as well. Chill.
Just as soon as the society I live in achieves gender equality, I will chill.
In the meantime, if you're really having trouble with your nerves, I suggest you lay down with a cold cloth on your forehead and wait till your hysteria passes.
And take 2 Midol, and a bar of dark chocolate.
I'm sure some of us female Shipmates would be happy to get together and donate a few hormonal cycles to you, Ingo, just in the interest of experiential education, you understand...
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
The only real tangible thing boys can do better than girls is write words with their pee in the snow.
Is this pure natural talent or is practice required? Never tried. Probably because there's never any snow here to pee in.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Trends and generalizations are not useless. They are useful as trends and generalizations.
But not necessarily useful to individuals. They are useless to individuals when the variance within the groups of comparison is great. Perhaps the concept of within group and between group variance is difficult to grasp. Plainly, if the within group variance is great this means that the generalization is useless for an individual person, in this case a woman. Thus a particular woman may exceed or be exceeded in capacity by a particular man, but in the case of alcohol metabolism her body size, organ health and weight are more important than her gender. And the predictive utility of the gender is not helpful at all. Neither is the relative statistic that black people have lower IQs than white people, which is just as true and just as unhelpful.
quote:
Ingo
My first PhD student in my new place of work is about to start. It is an Italian woman. I selected her for my stipend because she beat the competition on skills, in particular in applied maths. Her competitors were all men. I'm not a perfect human being, but I am a professional scientist. If you are a phosphorous slug from Betelgeuse, but out-think the competition, then you will get the jobs I have to offer and will be first author on our papers.
The only issue with a PhD candidate is that they are members of the group "PhD candidates", after that it is the individual differences that are important. Your statement appears to understand this, but then you curiously go on.
quote:
Ingo
So yeah, I get the point about treating people as individuals. I practice it. I have always practiced it in my professional life. That's why I feel free to be annoyed at all this blathering about women champion drinkers. Yeah, sure, there will be some. But that does not change the entirely valid trends and generalizations, which for example mean that one should advise women in general to drink less alcohol than men if they want to stay healthy and safe.
No. The best is to advise all to drink moderately and to know themselves properly, not singling out individuals because of their gender. As noted above, the individual differences in alcohol tolerance due to other factors are more important than membership in the groups: male or female gender.
An interesting read about the the median not being the message (and other measures of central tendency) is evolutinary biologist Stephen Jay Gould's essay about his cancer. He also wrote "The Mismeasure of Man", which debunks the history of measuring group differences and applying them inappropriately to individuals as advanced by promoters of "The Bell Curve" (Murray & Herrnstein, and probably a little unfairly tarring these authors, who don't actually say quite what they are said to say). When I taught the history of science, we assigned these to grad students because they were going to be learning how to and not to apply group data to individuals and make appropriate predictions and decisions, which may be something you don't do in your work.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
The only real tangible thing boys can do better than girls is write words with their pee in the snow.
Is this pure natural talent or is practice required? Never tried. Probably because there's never any snow here to pee in.
My best friends when I was in kindergarten peed their names against the redwood-plank fence in the backyard. You gotta use your imagination.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Egeria
Shipmate
# 4517
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Posted
quote:
Back in the 1950s, the archaeologist Mortimer Wheeler used to insist that any students going on a dig with him had to pass the following test - they had to be able to shovel dirt and throw the shovelful into a wheelbarrow placed 20 feet away. This was to weed out the female students, so the chaps could all go off together without worrying about being polite for the ladies.
Here's something I was told by another research fellow in 1989: women should stay out of archaeology because they're so prone to sexual misconduct, they give the whole discipline a bad name.
And another grad student told me that of course archaeological field directors have a right to discriminate against women--to claim otherwise is a denial of academic freedom. Then he added, "Of course, no field director would ever have you on the staff; you would cause friction on the dig."
And I've also been told several times that not only is there no discrimination against women in academe--women even are given unfair advantages! So, when I was appointed a teaching assistant, it was just for "political" reasons; when I took my qualifying exams, I would pass because the faculty would make sure to lower the bar for me. This comment of course came from a man who'd had to retake two of his three doctoral exams. Yes, he flunked two the first time.
And then there's the tale of the traveling researcher who doesn't do the research. Student receives fellowship for study abroad and when she arrives home, finds that she is supposedly a slacker. I heard this one about S. when I was overseas collecting research material (from the same student who complained about the immorality of female archeologists--he was really nasty about it too, calling her a thief and claiming she'd been sued by the fellowship committee). Guess what I heard when I returned from my fellowship year? Right--I was accused of having failed to accomplish anything. You'll have to take my word for it that I did in fact complete all the research outlined in my proposal. Somewhere along the line, my name was substituted for S's, except for the part about the lawsuit. I have heard several other rumors of this nature, and the target is always female. And always the recipient of a grant or fellowship.
Maybe formal barriers have been removed, but discrimination against women still exists in academe. It's just become more subtle.
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"Sound bodies lined / with a sound mind / do here pursue with might / grace, honor, praise, delight."--Rabelais
Posts: 314 | From: Berkeley, CA | Registered: May 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
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Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
What goes on my nerves is this over-the-top defensiveness about any possible advantage men might actually have over women. Given that men and women are biologically distinct, there are bound to be some. And yes, there are bound to be some going the other way as well. Chill.
Just as soon as the society I live in achieves gender equality, I will chill.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
OK, maybe women can't park as well as men, and driving test fails show this to be so.
Once the examiner (or the instructor, or another responsible adult) has been removed however things appear to change. Can someone explain the reasons why motor insurance premiums for young men are so much higher?
Because even if women suck significantly at parking, parking accidents are relatively cheap, when compared to the accidents caused by people who think that aggressive driving is a sign of a large penis?
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
The only real tangible thing boys can do better than girls is write words with their pee in the snow.
Is this pure natural talent or is practice required? Never tried. Probably because there's never any snow here to pee in.
My best friends when I was in kindergarten peed their names against the redwood-plank fence in the backyard. You gotta use your imagination.
Apparently it's not only my imagination I gotta use.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
Aggressive driving is a sign of aggression.
Spirited driving is a sign of WHEEEE.
Inattentive driving is a sign of PLEASE LET YOU KILL ONLY YOURSELF, ASSHOLE.
Sexism based on physiological differences is simply acknowledging reality. However, I suspect that the physiological differences between the statistical mean of males and females in humans is usually insignificant in comparison to the standard deviations in each. Thus betraying sexism as mostly a fucked-up byproduct of accreted social constructs.
Shorter version: fuck you all, and I hope I can teach my daughter to tell you the same.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
Also: I can accurately e-brake drift into a parallel parking spot, and fully intend to drill this (and other basic driving skills) into my son and daughter.
Despite the fact that I'm hoping for the autonomous car revolution we so desperately need, because humans are generally poor drivers.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Shorter version: fuck you all, and I hope I can teach my daughter to tell you the same.
My Dad was a product of his time - I am sure he would say exactly the same if he were your age.
My son isn't sexist at all, never has been. This was confirmed for him when trained as a commercial pilot in a class of eight. The two women in the class outperformed the men every time, especially in the maths, physics and spatial awareness.
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Shorter version: fuck you all, and I hope I can teach my daughter to tell you the same.
I hope you do.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Starbug
Shipmate
# 15917
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Posted
There is a man in our street who drives a Rover. I am female and drive a Fiat 500 (not pink!) Several times, Mr Rover Driver has tried to intimidate me. Once, I had just parked (very well, I might add) and he drove up, stopped his car alongside mine and stared at me, trying to get me to move my car because I was in his usual spot. I got out, locked the car and went to my house.
He tried this again a few weeks later. He has also stared at me aggressively when I'm walking back from my car to the house. Interestingly, he only does it when I'm on my own and not with my husband. Parking space is at a premium in our road, but I don't believe this justifies his behaviour.
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“Oh the pointing again. They're screwdrivers! What are you going to do? Assemble a cabinet at them?” ― The Day of the Doctor
Posts: 1189 | From: West of the New Forest | Registered: Sep 2010
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Oh I forgot, the thing that always amazes me about reverse parking, is that the angle you go in at has to be bigger than common sense would tell you. So I sort of think of an angle, and then increase it quite drastically, so it actually feels wrong and exaggerated, and that usually works.
I had to parallel park tonight, and nailed it thanks to your post.
baby, you da best!
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
But not necessarily useful to individuals. They are useless to individuals when the variance within the groups of comparison is great. Perhaps the concept of within group and between group variance is difficult to grasp. Plainly, if the within group variance is great this means that the generalization is useless for an individual person, in this case a woman. Thus a particular woman may exceed or be exceeded in capacity by a particular man, but in the case of alcohol metabolism her body size, organ health and weight are more important than her gender. And the predictive utility of the gender is not helpful at all. Neither is the relative statistic that black people have lower IQs than white people, which is just as true and just as unhelpful.
No matter how large within group variance may be, if the between group variance is large enough one will be able to distinguish the groups in a statistically significant way (with enough samples), and consequently predictions based on between group difference will be appropriate to individuals more often than not. There is no magic level of within group variance which universally wipes out all usefulness of distinguishing that group from another. And there is no way that the IQ differences between black and white people are anywhere near as statistically significant as differences in alcohol tolerance levels between men and women. That's just comparing statistical apples and oranges. Now, there often are good reasons why we ignore statistically significant differences. In particular, where we already select individually, we do not usually need to select according to group differences. But there we get into "politics", not statistics. Is it for example right to separate men from women in long distance races, but not North Africans from the rest of the world? That's not really just a stats question.
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
No. The best is to advise all to drink moderately and to know themselves properly, not singling out individuals because of their gender. As noted above, the individual differences in alcohol tolerance due to other factors are more important than membership in the groups: male or female gender.
Let's be perfectly clear here, you think the standard advice printed on UK alcoholic drinks "men should not regularly drink more than 3–4 units of alcohol a day and women should not regularly drink more than 2–3 units a day" is mistaken in principle? Well, I tell you what. I don't know whether you are ignorant about statistics or ideologically blinded, but you are here in your own very small way a danger to the health and welfare of people.
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
When I taught the history of science, we assigned these to grad students because they were going to be learning how to and not to apply group data to individuals and make appropriate predictions and decisions, which may be something you don't do in your work.
I'm sure you are a good historian.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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JonahMan
Shipmate
# 12126
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Starbug:
As well as all the stereotypes Comet mentioned ( ), can I also add to the list pink power tools? Why, in the name of anything, would women be more likely to use a power drill or screwdriver just because it looks like one of Barbie's accessories? The whole thing is just crap!
It gets worse: have a look at this
inane example of crass stupidity. Stupid in two ways, firstly designing and marketing the thing and secondly asking a feminist comic to advertise it. Why would anybody, even the most moronic male dinosaur think this was a good idea?
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Thank God for the aged
And old age itself, and illness and the grave
For when you're old, or ill and particularly in the coffin
It's no trouble to behave
Posts: 914 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Dec 2006
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
I think their main function in the world is to provide reviews on Amazon.co.uk and Amazon.com .
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
That said, I covet my friend's ratchet spanners
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
So do I!
I have lots of pink things, shirts, duvet covers, wall-paper, oh no, do you think I have a touch of the Jack Lemons? I'm a girl, I'm a girl, I'm a girl - mmm, actually I like it.
[ 19. September 2013, 13:08: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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