homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools
Thread closed  Thread closed


Post new thread  
Thread closed  Thread closed
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Ship's Locker   » Limbo   » Hell: no_prophet, no_brain more like ... (Page 1)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Hell: no_prophet, no_brain more like ...
Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
# 440

 - Posted      Profile for Tubbs   Author's homepage   Email Tubbs   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
no_prophet reads stories about solders returning from combat suffering from post traumatic stress disorder and feels no sympathy for them. They knew what they were getting into and they should have chosen another job.

He goes on to compare their situation to WWII concentration camp guards. This is probably one of those posts where you really want the person to sit down on the naughty step and think about what they’ve done … But that assumes that they're capable of rational thought in the first place. [Disappointed] [Roll Eyes]

Society wants soldiers to protect them from the bad stuff that’s out there and to fight to protect their values / vested interests / the innocent etc.

When I grew up, all the adverts for the armed forces suggested that you could “Join the … and see the world”. Not much mention of the fighting and the killing thing.

Now the adverts emphasis the variety of jobs and skills, the challenges, the opportunity to help people etc – a few of them reference holding someone up with a gun. Again, glossing over the whole fighting and killing.

The only time you see references to the risk of injury or death during the Poppy Appeal.

Frankly, I reckon if anyone knew what the job really involved and the risk you take, very few people would sign up.

Society wants to soldiers to fight wars and protect them. Politicians decide what wars get fought, where and how. And then justify them by appealing to patriotism and the whole "glorious battlefield" nonsense. Want to blame someone - blame them!

Solders are people doing a job. A dangerous, scary and life changing job - like coppers, medics etc. Don't blame them for the shit they've been told to shovel. The Iraq war is the responsiblity of Bush and Blair not the Armed Forces. What would you have them do? Turn round and say, "Sorry mate, it's a shit cause, we're not going?" The peoople that tried that got court marshalled. About the only good thing about that is we don't shoot those found guilty any more. They just go to jail instead.

Then the solders come home. Some need treatment for their physical injuries and then benefits because those injuries mean they can’t hold down a job. Suddenly they’re “benefit scum” rather than heroes. Others look fine, but need help to adjust to “normal life” because what they’ve seen and done. And they get told that “they should have chosen a different career” and that it "serves them right".

The same politicans who were so keen to wave them off and the society that thanked their lucky stars that someone was willing to do what they couldn't don’t want to know anymore.

That's not the same as saying that members of the armed forces should be treated better than others in the situation btw. Just that if society wants someonoe to do that job, it needs to accept that it's a two way street. And step up to its responsiblities to support those who return in need of help appropriately. (It would be nice if it supported all those who needed help appropriately, but good luck with that under this government!)

In my time on the Ship, I’ve read some ignorant, stupid opinions, but yours pretty much takes the biscuit AND the cake. It'll be a while before someone tops it.

Telling someone in trouble that it's their own fault and you don't feel any sympathy is pretty shitty. Telling someone in trouble that it's their own fault and you don't feel sympathy is doubly shitty when they're in trouble because they were protecting you! I know you didn't actually ask them to protect you, but your world would be very different if they hadn't! If it weren't for solders, you probably wouldn't be able to express your stupid, ignorent opinions quite so freely from the safety of your computer chair.

You sir, are a word beginning with C that, despite how angry I am, I still can’t bring myself to type!

Tubbs

[ETA: More anger! Or as angry as a middle class English woman can manage!]

[ 03. January 2014, 08:13: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]

--------------------
"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
Telling someone in trouble that it's their own fault and you don't feel sympathy is doubly shitty when they're in trouble because they were protecting you! I know you didn't actually ask them to protect you, but your world would be very different if they hadn't!

Are we talking about Afghanistan/Iraq here? Because I'm far from convinced that we're any safer or better off now than we were the day before our troops first went in.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
# 440

 - Posted      Profile for Tubbs   Author's homepage   Email Tubbs   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
Telling someone in trouble that it's their own fault and you don't feel sympathy is doubly shitty when they're in trouble because they were protecting you! I know you didn't actually ask them to protect you, but your world would be very different if they hadn't!

Are we talking about Afghanistan/Iraq here? Because I'm far from convinced that we're any safer or better off now than we were the day before our troops first went in.
Neither am I, but that's not the soldier's fault, it's Bush and Blair's.

Tubbs

--------------------
"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Are we talking about Afghanistan/Iraq here? Because I'm far from convinced that we're any safer or better off now than we were the day before our troops first went in.

Neither am I, but that's not the soldier's fault, it's Bush and Blair's.
It doesn't matter whose fault it is, if it's not protecting us it's not protecting us.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696

 - Posted      Profile for Evensong   Author's homepage   Email Evensong   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:

Frankly, I reckon if anyone knew what the job really involved and the risk you take, very few people would sign up.

I call total BULLSHIT.

Anyone not knowing the risks of going into the armed forces is either a complete fool (yes - quite possible) or willfully ignorant.

There is really no way in this day and age of information, movies and education that people in the western armed forces would not be aware of the risks.

[ 15. November 2013, 13:26: Message edited by: Evensong ]

--------------------
a theological scrapbook

Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
# 440

 - Posted      Profile for Tubbs   Author's homepage   Email Tubbs   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:

Frankly, I reckon if anyone knew what the job really involved and the risk you take, very few people would sign up.

I call total BULLSHIT.

Anyone not knowing the risks of going into the armed forces is either a complete fool (yes - quite possible) or willfully ignorant.

There is really no way in this day and age of information, movies and education that people in the western armed forces would not be aware of the risks.

You can call what you like! [Razz] Many people join the armed forces after they've left school or university. At that age, most people think they're industructable. Death and injuries are things that happen to other people.

[ETA: Others join because they don't really have another option and just hope for the best. I do know someone who'd left the armed forces, got a civilan job that wasn't due to start until the following year and then rejoined the forces because that was the only job he could get that filled the gap. A man has to eat and all that. Killed mid way through his term of duty. That doesn't give no-prophet the right to pontificate that he somehow bought it on himself].

Tubbs

[ 15. November 2013, 13:47: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

--------------------
"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

 - Posted      Profile for Lyda*Rose   Email Lyda*Rose   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
Tubbs:
quote:
Many people join the armed forces after they've left school or university. At that age, most people think they're industructable. Death and injuries are things that happen to other people.
This is key.

And by ty the way, no prophet is an asshole about this subject. Although I wonder if it is a by-product of the troubles his family has seen. His people have a right to be shaken to the core by violence, because they are innocent. A soldier doesn't because he or she "asked for it". Hmm. Reminds me of a certain kind of sophistry I've heard on another kind of situation.

--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
And again, and again, and again, and AGAIN, and ... WHERE is the Church in all this?

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

 - Posted      Profile for mdijon     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It doesn't matter whose fault it is, if it's not protecting us it's not protecting us.

For the purposes of calling someone to hell for their lack of sympathy with an individual soldier it matters a great deal.

--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
Nothing prepares you for standing next to your best friend you've gone through school with as a bullet goes through his head and turns him in to 'a bag of shit'.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753

 - Posted      Profile for jbohn   Author's homepage   Email jbohn   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
no_prophet reads stories about solders returning from combat suffering from post traumatic stress disorder and feels no sympathy for them. They knew what they were getting into and they should have chosen another job.

n_p is being a holier-than-thou "peace at all costs" arsehole. As usual. End of.

quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
[ETA: More anger! Or as angry as a middle class English woman can manage!]

This made me smile... [Biased]

--------------------
We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard

Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
# 440

 - Posted      Profile for Tubbs   Author's homepage   Email Tubbs   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It doesn't matter whose fault it is, if it's not protecting us it's not protecting us.

For the purposes of calling someone to hell for their lack of sympathy with an individual soldier it matters a great deal.
Collective and individual in this case. And the collective and individual failures of politicans are not the responsiblity or fault of those who are asked to carry out their wishes.

Tubbs

--------------------
"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
And again, and again, and again, and AGAIN, and ... WHERE is the Church in all this?

All over the place - and I mean that in a good way.

I have heard more discussion of spiritual issues and the enormity of taking a human life in five minutes in a military officer training academy than in years in university academia, let alone business schools.

The Church is called to be in the world, even if not of it. Some christians' convictions allow them to serve in the armed forces; others' don't. Either there's room for everyone, or the liberty of conscience that I feel is so foundational to the New Convenant and liberating from the Law is a myth.

If we can work towards "studying war no more", then great. But in the meantime, we should be willing to minister to those who have got their hands dirty - and sometimes, for some people, get our hands dirty ourselves.

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
# 619

 - Posted      Profile for Firenze     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
And again, and again, and again, and AGAIN, and ... WHERE is the Church in all this?

What, in no prophet being a callous, pompous windbag, with the imagination of pondslime and a heart of dessicated chickenshit? Other than pointing to him as a poster boy for miserable, petty self-righteousness, I can't see the role of religion here.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It doesn't matter whose fault it is, if it's not protecting us it's not protecting us.

For the purposes of calling someone to hell for their lack of sympathy with an individual soldier it matters a great deal.
I wasn't arguing about sympathy for soldiers, I was arguing about the propoganda-esque way their exploits in Iraq and Afghanistan were being described. Nothing they are doing in those countries has any bearing whatsoever on my freedoms or wellbeing, and the only tangible effect of those wars on my life has been a dramatic rise in the price of petrol.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

 - Posted      Profile for Chorister   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
And again, and again, and again, and AGAIN, and ... WHERE is the Church in all this?

Some of the most impressive priests (and preachers) I've come across have served as military chaplains. They, more than anyone else in the church, cannot ever be accused of living in an ecclesiastical bubble.

Sometimes, as with paramedics, police, etc. wanting to be a force for good in the world can lead to people being stretched beyond what the human mind/body can take. Of course they will need help to recover from this trauma in the aftermath. And it is not as simple as the ethics of being used as a fighting machine - spare a thought for the forces who are even now wending their way over to the Philippines to help out with their appalling disaster. There will be trauma aplenty facing them when they arrive, without a shot ever needing to be fired.

--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405

 - Posted      Profile for Porridge   Email Porridge   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:

Frankly, I reckon if anyone knew what the job really involved and the risk you take, very few people would sign up.

I call total BULLSHIT.

Anyone not knowing the risks of going into the armed forces is either a complete fool (yes - quite possible) or willfully ignorant.

There is really no way in this day and age of information, movies and education that people in the western armed forces would not be aware of the risks.

You can call what you like! [Razz] Many people join the armed forces after they've left school or university. At that age, most people think they're industructable. Death and injuries are things that happen to other people.

[ETA: Others join because they don't really have another option and just hope for the best. I do know someone who'd left the armed forces, got a civilan job that wasn't due to start until the following year and then rejoined the forces because that was the only job he could get that filled the gap. A man has to eat and all that. Killed mid way through his term of duty. That doesn't give no-prophet the right to pontificate that he somehow bought it on himself].

Tubbs

In the US, people are officially "adult" at age 18 (except for alcohol consumption), while the human brain does not fully mature anywhere until around age 25. 18-25 = prime recruitment age.

These kids do NOT "know what they're getting into." In fact, if you believe Michael Moore (and you might not), some of them are actively lied to during the recruitment process.

To claim these people deserve no sympathy is a catastrophic failure of compassion.

--------------------
Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!

Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
Mature is a slightly biased, and not quite accurate word.
Our brains are not merely receptacles filling with information. They process differently as they age. We, as a species, need that within the young brain which takes risks, which calculates biased towards potential reward, rather than the potential risk. It is part of what has made us successful.
Individual deeds do have individual culpability, yes.
But I place more blame on those whose brains prefer the status quo. It is those people who allow themselves to be manipulated into perpetuating questionable situations who are more to blame.
But none of it is simple, and we are much to blame in that we like simple answers to complex questions.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493

 - Posted      Profile for JoannaP   Email JoannaP   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It doesn't matter whose fault it is, if it's not protecting us it's not protecting us.

For the purposes of calling someone to hell for their lack of sympathy with an individual soldier it matters a great deal.
I wasn't arguing about sympathy for soldiers, I was arguing about the propoganda-esque way their exploits in Iraq and Afghanistan were being described. Nothing they are doing in those countries has any bearing whatsoever on my freedoms or wellbeing, and the only tangible effect of those wars on my life has been a dramatic rise in the price of petrol.
How do you know that? Do you what Al Qaeda would have gone on to do if they had been left in peace in Afghanistan and are you sure that none of it would have affected you?

--------------------
"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin

Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
Iraq (a direct consequence) 700,000 DEAD ... 7/7 ... Madrid ... the Nairobi mal ... 4000 drone killings ... affected us

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
QLib

Bad Example
# 43

 - Posted      Profile for QLib   Email QLib   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
I disagree strongly with the proposition that these young men don't deserve sympathy, but there are a variety of reasons why people sign up:

They're aware of the good things they can get from the army: a job, a home, a sense of purpose. They may not really have thought things through; they may not really have a lot of alternatives. I believe quite a lot of troubled boys from dysfunctional homes sign up, and in the UK, shamefully, they can do so at age 16. These younger recruits are more likely to go on to get PTSD.

Some very brave and principled young people may sign up because they believe it's the right thing to do. I happen to think they're wrong, but I admire their willingness to put their lives on the line for what they believe to be right. Unfortunately, in doing so, they also, to a great extent, sign away their consciences. Short of war crime, they lose their right to say, 'This is wrong.'

So a comparison with concentration camp guards, though offensive, is not entirely unreasonable. Maybe many of them were recruited when they were young and lacking in wisdom; can there be any doubt that some of them believed what they were doing was right? That they were protecting their homes and their culture? It's important to remember that: to remember that many people who do morally monstrous things do so believing in the righteousness of their cause.

--------------------
Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
I can here Mr. R. Marley singing the OP.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

 - Posted      Profile for rolyn         Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Nothing prepares you for standing next to your best friend you've gone through school with as a bullet goes through his head and turns him in to 'a bag of shit'.

Indeed not .
Which is why the 'Old pals' battalions were never seen again after the bloody chaos of the Somme.

What is it with war ? We love it-- we hate it , we love it--we hate it .........

--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence

Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
That was told to me by an ex-squaddie of his experience in Northern Ireland 35 years ago. This was after he was discharged from military prison for 'desertion' immediately after that event.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:

Frankly, I reckon if anyone knew what the job really involved and the risk you take, very few people would sign up.

I call total BULLSHIT.

Anyone not knowing the risks of going into the armed forces is either a complete fool (yes - quite possible) or willfully ignorant.

There is really no way in this day and age of information, movies and education that people in the western armed forces would not be aware of the risks.

Oh yeah, right, because movies are absolutely chock full of completely realistic depictions of what it's like to witness a person being blown into pieces.

Don't be a fucking idiot, Evensong. There's a reason the soldiers have PTSD and the crowds filing out of the cinema don't.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644

 - Posted      Profile for Beeswax Altar   Email Beeswax Altar   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
Evensong defends everybody called to Hell.
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Evensong defends everybody called to Hell.

Well, that would explain this apparent inconsistency. I thought she always defended the underdog, but in that particular case the group 'called' to Hell was giving the caller a damn good thrashing.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618

 - Posted      Profile for betjemaniac     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:

Frankly, I reckon if anyone knew what the job really involved and the risk you take, very few people would sign up.

I call total BULLSHIT.

Anyone not knowing the risks of going into the armed forces is either a complete fool (yes - quite possible) or willfully ignorant.

There is really no way in this day and age of information, movies and education that people in the western armed forces would not be aware of the risks.

Oh yeah, right, because movies are absolutely chock full of completely realistic depictions of what it's like to witness a person being blown into pieces.

Don't be a fucking idiot, Evensong. There's a reason the soldiers have PTSD and the crowds filing out of the cinema don't.

Well, you say that, but some of the more modern generation remember 3 formative things.

Say you were born in 1980 - you're still young enough to have the b&w matinees on BBC2 at weekends; how we won the war. Then you're also likely to have seen Saving Private Ryan in the cinema in 1997or whenever it was, and remember the stream of WW2 veterans leaving after the first 20 minutes. Thirdly, you'll have been at university for Band of Brothers; possibly the las series n UK TV history that actually emptied UK pubs. I still remember the episode where they liberated the camp, and the stunned silence for a good hour afterwards. And yet many of us including me still joined: still felt it was the right thing to do, I'm going to give some people apoplexy here when I say I was confirmed into the CofE on a military base, under the aegis of the UK. Naval caplaincy. I still thnk both confirmation and joining up were the right thing to do.

To potentially throw a partial spanner in several of the posts up thread, I think that one of the worst things you can do is see us as victims who ddn't know what we were signing up for. See us as damaged, but don't tell us it wasn't worth it- as many of us cling to the fact that it was. There was a very perceptive post upthread: I've never thought so much about what it was that I was being asked to do as when I was at Dartmouth, nor have the conversations been so intense. We were right up there regardless of background with those that fancy themselves as Christian thinkers....

I would do it again.

--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....

Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013  |  IP: Logged
Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772

 - Posted      Profile for Palimpsest   Email Palimpsest   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
No_Prophet wrote
quote:
We're hearing a lot about soldiers who went off to Afghanistan lately in Canada. They come back with "operational stress injury" meaning they are traumatised psychologically. I find myself unsympathetic
Fortunately, not having No_Prophet's sympathy is not much of a loss for the wounded. Who would want it?
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011  |  IP: Logged
chive

Ship's nude
# 208

 - Posted      Profile for chive   Email chive   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
The education levels of young soldiers suggests that they may not have the wherewithal to make the mature considered decision about what being a soldier means. Especially when they're signing up at 16.

But who gives a shit about that. It's all their fault. [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost

Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618

 - Posted      Profile for betjemaniac     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by chive:
The education levels of young soldiers suggests that they may not have the wherewithal to make the mature considered decision about what being a soldier means. Especially when they're signing up at 16.

But who gives a shit about that. It's all their fault. [Roll Eyes]

But conversely, some of the sort of people we often get in the UK wouldn't be any better if they were any older. The most rewarding thing i've done in my life is teach on the staff of the navy's new entry training establishment and help sort some of these people out. I'm not exaggerating when i say that in some ways the forces in the UK are an extension of social services.

Just on a point of order (can we do those here?) what everyone seems to miss in the media is that those 16 year olds can leave at pretty much any time up to their 18th birthday, and a high percentage do (having got some qualifications into the bargain)....

--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....

Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013  |  IP: Logged
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696

 - Posted      Profile for Evensong   Author's homepage   Email Evensong   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:

Frankly, I reckon if anyone knew what the job really involved and the risk you take, very few people would sign up.

I call total BULLSHIT.

Anyone not knowing the risks of going into the armed forces is either a complete fool (yes - quite possible) or willfully ignorant.

There is really no way in this day and age of information, movies and education that people in the western armed forces would not be aware of the risks.

Oh yeah, right, because movies are absolutely chock full of completely realistic depictions of what it's like to witness a person being blown into pieces.

Don't be a fucking idiot, Evensong. There's a reason the soldiers have PTSD and the crowds filing out of the cinema don't.

Perhaps I'm weird, but when I was a kid in the 80's and 90's I remember watching war movies and being horrified. I was honestly deeply upset by what I saw and didn't understand how anyone could glorify war at all.

Cinema and video games these days are terrifically violent and often about war. There is no doubt playing a war game does not substitute killing someone face to face, but there is also no doubt that people going into the armed forced know that is what they will do at least on an intellectual level.

I've almost just finished a four month placement in a hospital. The number of war veterans that are still completely unable and unwilling to talk about their experiences of war is shocking. The one that managed to tell me he still sees the face of the first man he killed everyday was horrifying.

Perhaps kids that go into war these days just haven't had sufficient education in history and exposure to those that have actually suffered through it.

Good grounds for teaching history.

--------------------
a theological scrapbook

Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696

 - Posted      Profile for Evensong   Author's homepage   Email Evensong   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Evensong defends everybody called to Hell.

No not everyone (for my sins?)

Yet when I saw no prophet called my hackles immediately rose. S/he is a treasure: a farkin awesome person with many great insights and contributions to the ship.

I suspect his lack of pastoral sympathy on this point has everything to do with his abhorrence of violence: violence and brutality that he has experienced recently in his own personal life and that s/he is still struggling with.

--------------------
a theological scrapbook

Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

 - Posted      Profile for Twilight     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:


At that age, most people think they're industructable. Death and injuries are things that happen to other people.

Right. They think it's going to happen to the other guy. They believe they will be Patton's kind of soldier, "I don't want men who will die for their country but men who will make the other guy die for his country."

quote:
Others join because they don't really have another option and just hope for the best.
Unless there is a draft they have other options. I would go on welfare before I would take a job that I knew would involve killing people.

I am sympathetic to soldiers who return with PTSD, I think they have suffered more than they could ever have imagined, but that doesn't change the fact that they joined up willingly, knowing they might have to kill other people -- and they thought that was okay.

Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:

Yet when I saw no prophet called my hackles immediately rose. S/he is a treasure: a farkin awesome person with many great insights and contributions to the ship.

So the specifics of the call were less important than your generally good opinion of no prophet?

Otherwise good people sometimes do and say stupid insensitive things. Like in this case. Or so it seems to me.

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
QLib

Bad Example
# 43

 - Posted      Profile for QLib   Email QLib   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
... what everyone seems to miss in the media is that those 16 year olds can leave at pretty much any time up to their 18th birthday, and a high percentage do (having got some qualifications into the bargain)....

Yes, a right dating all the way back to 2011. The UK has had under-18s serving (and dying) in Afghanistan, even though having minors on active service is sort-of prohibited - oh, except in cases of "genuine" military need.

[ 16. November 2013, 12:02: Message edited by: QLib ]

--------------------
Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

 - Posted      Profile for Curiosity killed ...   Email Curiosity killed ...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
If you want to qualify as a mechanical engineer now and come from a less monied background, the army is your best route without running up thousands in debts going to university. Particularly if engineering courses are going to be charged at whatever the universities are looking at now as the going rate. Whether the country needs engineers or not.

And I have heard of a number of young people choosing that route to get an engineering qualification and/or other qualifications that the army offers, whilst hoping they don't end up killed in action.

--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:


At that age, most people think they're industructable. Death and injuries are things that happen to other people.

Right. They think it's going to happen to the other guy. They believe they will be Patton's kind of soldier, "I don't want men who will die for their country but men who will make the other guy die for his country."

quote:
Others join because they don't really have another option and just hope for the best.
Unless there is a draft they have other options. I would go on welfare before I would take a job that I knew would involve killing people.

I am sympathetic to soldiers who return with PTSD, I think they have suffered more than they could ever have imagined, but that doesn't change the fact that they joined up willingly, knowing they might have to kill other people -- and they thought that was okay.

Not a few of the British troops in Afghanistan have been from our Territorial Army, which is a part-time reserve. The term "Territorial" has, like many terms involved in military recruiting, misled plenty into thinking that their service will be directly connected with the defence of the United Kingdom, not some damnfool adventure to one of the very worst places to fight, which we should already know from history.

All that however is a rational explanation about the circumstances in which some soldiers join up, showing yet again the deception done by those recruiting, running and deploying the armed forces. It doesn't address your complete lack of compassion.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

 - Posted      Profile for Moo   Email Moo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
And I have heard of a number of young people choosing that route to get an engineering qualification and/or other qualifications that the army offers, whilst hoping they don't end up killed in action.

I knew a young outdoorsman who wanted to do search-and-rescue work for lost hikers. Private instruction in helicopter piloting was prohibitively expensive, so he joined the army with the firm commitment that they would train him. He did serve in Iraq and Afghanistan, and returned home unscathed.

Now he can rescue injured hikers.

Moo

--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
The most rewarding thing i've done in my life is teach on the staff of the navy's new entry training establishment and help sort some of these people out. I'm not exaggerating when i say that in some ways the forces in the UK are an extension of social services.


This is a bit of a tangent, but the loss of the support network that the army, navy and air force provide is often the point at which mental illnesses start to become apparent. While men and women are seerving, they are to some extent institutionalised to a point where some conditions don't become apparent. Only when they hve to deal with the world outside, often for the first time as independent adults, do problems emerge. The view taken by the Ministry of Defence is pretty much that "They aren't serving, so they aren't our problem" while the typical social services department finds an ex-soldier unable to fit-in and thinks "Oh bugger, who's able to take another case on?"

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

 - Posted      Profile for Twilight     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
My complete lack of compassion? I have said repeatedly that I do have great sympathy for the troops coming home with physical and mental injuries and I understand that they made the decision to join when they were very young.

What I am barely believing in this thread and others is the complete lack of compassion for the people in other countries who have had bombs dropped on their village, who have seen their family members blown up in front of them.

L'Organist actually called No Prophet's Christianity into question on the Purg thread. Where is the Christian compassion for the young (probably even younger than ours) soldier on the other end? It's those young soldiers who often are drafted against their will and might really go hungry if they don't join up.

You know what I find absolutely, incredibly shocking and lacking in compassion? People who find an engineering degree a fair trade for human life?

Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
My complete lack of compassion? I have said repeatedly that I do have great sympathy for the troops coming home with physical and mental injuries and I understand that they made the decision to join when they were very young.

What I am barely believing in this thread and others is the complete lack of compassion for the people in other countries who have had bombs dropped on their village, who have seen their family members blown up in front of them.

L'Organist actually called No Prophet's Christianity into question on the Purg thread. Where is the Christian compassion for the young (probably even younger than ours) soldier on the other end? It's those young soldiers who often are drafted against their will and might really go hungry if they don't join up.

You know what I find absolutely, incredibly shocking and lacking in compassion? People who find an engineering degree a fair trade for human life?

Asshole. You make your compassion conditional on the statement that "They signed up when they were hardly more than children". No, Twilight, I call you on a lack of compassion, on a basis of what compassion is, not what you fancy it to be.

btw, one of the specialist roles of the Royal Engineers is making IEDs safe, which saves human lives at considerable risk to themselves.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696

 - Posted      Profile for Evensong   Author's homepage   Email Evensong   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:

Yet when I saw no prophet called my hackles immediately rose. S/he is a treasure: a farkin awesome person with many great insights and contributions to the ship.

So the specifics of the call were less important than your generally good opinion of no prophet?

Yes.

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:

You know what I find absolutely, incredibly shocking and lacking in compassion? People who find an engineering degree a fair trade for human life?

[Overused]

[ 16. November 2013, 13:53: Message edited by: Evensong ]

--------------------
a theological scrapbook

Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

 - Posted      Profile for Curiosity killed ...   Email Curiosity killed ...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
Army engineers are the troops defusing bombs, building bridges and railways, building checkpoints, generally supporting the infrastructure. And bomb disposal isn't the best career for longevity.

--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

 - Posted      Profile for Twilight     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
My complete lack of compassion? I have said repeatedly that I do have great sympathy for the troops coming home with physical and mental injuries and I understand that they made the decision to join when they were very young.

What I am barely believing in this thread and others is the complete lack of compassion for the people in other countries who have had bombs dropped on their village, who have seen their family members blown up in front of them.

L'Organist actually called No Prophet's Christianity into question on the Purg thread. Where is the Christian compassion for the young (probably even younger than ours) soldier on the other end? It's those young soldiers who often are drafted against their will and might really go hungry if they don't join up.

You know what I find absolutely, incredibly shocking and lacking in compassion? People who find an engineering degree a fair trade for human life?

Asshole. You make your compassion conditional on the statement that "They signed up when they were hardly more than children". No, Twilight, I call you on a lack of compassion, on a basis of what compassion is, not what you fancy it to be.


I named their youth as one of the many reasons I have compassion for them, I never said my compassion was conditional upon that. You made that up. I have compassion for anyone who is hurting. What I don't do is confuse compassion with respect.

Intelligent, thoughtful Christians think long and hard before they decide whether or not they join the military. The "Pacifist," thread lists some good arguments on both sides of the issue.

My husband is career military, retired as Master Sgt after 22 years active duty. He believes that our country must have a strong military to survive. He served with the knowledge that he would have to obey orders without question and that he might have to take the lives of other human beings. He now volunteers with the veterans at all the military funerals in our area. I'm well aware of the sacrifice that has been made by military men over the years. I have total respect for those men and women, although it would never be my decision to join.

What I have no respect for is people who made the decision to join lightly or selfishly, because they thought it was a good way to pay for college, or because some recruiter told them they would earn enough for a new car in six months. Taking the lives of other people should be far more serious than that.

Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644

 - Posted      Profile for Beeswax Altar   Email Beeswax Altar   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Evensong defends everybody called to Hell.

No not everyone (for my sins?)

Yet when I saw no prophet called my hackles immediately rose. S/he is a treasure: a farkin awesome person with many great insights and contributions to the ship.

I suspect his lack of pastoral sympathy on this point has everything to do with his abhorrence of violence: violence and brutality that he has experienced recently in his own personal life and that s/he is still struggling with.

or he could just be a self righteous jerk
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
A little too annoyed for a reasonable, lengthy reply to this thread. So keeping it simple.

Fuck. Everyone. Using. Black and White. Reasoning.

Bloody tossers using fuck all for grey matter.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
A little too annoyed for a reasonable, lengthy reply to this thread. So keeping it simple.

Fuck. Everyone. Using. Black and White. Reasoning.

Bloody tossers using fuck all for grey matter.

That's probably why it's called grey matter. It enables us to detect nuances. But that sort of thing is for Purgatory and this is Hell, so you really shouldn't be surprised.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
QLib

Bad Example
# 43

 - Posted      Profile for QLib   Email QLib   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Army engineers are the troops defusing bombs, building bridges and railways, building checkpoints, generally supporting the infrastructure.

That may be true, but if your main aim is to save life, then a career in the contemporary British army is probably not the best way to go about it.

Is Twilight showing a lack of compassion? Surely one may feel compassion for people without endorsing their moral choices.

I was at uni with someone who had an extra large cost-of-living grant (academic tuition was free in those days) paid for by the Armed Forces (for a degree in English. Weird). The advertising at the time was all about the great career opportunities. He was hoping to be get out within (I think) 6 years without killing or being killed. He should have just made it before the Falklands War. I think he saw it as a matter of pragmatism rather than morals, but then one way of making a (bad) moral choice is to redefine it as a matter of pragmatism. He was (I assume) lucky. Other people who made the same call weren't so lucky.

[ 16. November 2013, 15:20: Message edited by: QLib ]

--------------------
Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

 - Posted      Profile for RooK   Author's homepage   Email RooK   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
If everybody always had a clear understanding of what a military tour of duty would mean, I suspect that the volunteer armies would be a good deal smaller. And I say that as somebody notoriously lacking in sympathy for stupid people.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3 
 
Post new thread  
Thread closed  Thread closed
Open thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools