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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: no_prophet, no_brain more like ...
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
A little too annoyed for a reasonable, lengthy reply to this thread. So keeping it simple.
Fuck. Everyone. Using. Black and White. Reasoning.
Bloody tossers using fuck all for grey matter.
That's probably why it's called grey matter. It enables us to detect nuances. But that sort of thing is for Purgatory and this is Hell, so you really shouldn't be surprised.
So, you are telling me it is unreasonable for me to be unreasonable because Hell for being unreasonable?
My head is spinning.
[ 16. November 2013, 15:48: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
So, you are telling me it is unreasonable for me to be unreasonable because Hell for being unreasonable?
My head is spinning.
No, but I suggest you shouldn't be surprised when others are unreasonable here. You don't have to be unreasonable in Hell, but one should not be surprised by it.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
No, but I suggest you shouldn't be surprised when others are unreasonable here. You don't have to be unreasonable in Hell, but one should not be surprised by it.
Actually as I understand the purpose of Hell, it's for being making personal statements, not stupid ones.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
No, but I suggest you shouldn't be surprised when others are unreasonable here. You don't have to be unreasonable in Hell, but one should not be surprised by it.
Actually as I understand the purpose of Hell, it's for being making personal statements, not stupid ones.
They need not be personal. We encourage rants which can be against inanimate objects* and these can easily be unreasonable and appear stupid to all but the rantor.
*eg; shopping malls, bus stations, airports, car parks.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
So, you are telling me it is unreasonable for me to be unreasonable because Hell for being unreasonable?
My head is spinning.
No, but I suggest you shouldn't be surprised when others are unreasonable here. You don't have to be unreasonable in Hell, but one should not be surprised by it.
Sorry, that was a bit of an attempt at humour. Your comment gave me a bit of a needed laugh* and I thought I'd return the favour. Obviously not successfully.
*Do not attempt to find anything reasonable as to why.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
So, you are telling me it is unreasonable for me to be unreasonable because Hell for being unreasonable?
My head is spinning.
No, but I suggest you shouldn't be surprised when others are unreasonable here. You don't have to be unreasonable in Hell, but one should not be surprised by it.
Sorry, that was a bit of an attempt at humour. Your comment gave me a bit of a needed laugh* and I thought I'd return the favour. Obviously not successfully.
*Do not attempt to find anything reasonable as to why.
Glad you got something out of it. Sometimes I don't 'get' things but that's entirely my problem.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
That was told to me by an ex-squaddie of his experience in Northern Ireland 35 years ago. This was after he was discharged from military prison for 'desertion' immediately after that event.
OK Martin -- Respect .
Many of those shot for cowardice in WW1 were people who simply walked away from the incessant noise and horror , their only crime being to answer a normal human response.
Those of us who've not had direct involvement with combat can never really appreciate the sheer surrealness of violence, close up and personal.
One of the things that haunted Great War soldiers , apart from leaving friends wounded in no-man's-land , was the birdsong that continued despite the cries of the wounded .
Coming back to OP , I not at all sure our sentimentalized *sympathy* ,(granted or not), gets anywhere near this kind of shit.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Probably not
I don't go much for sentimentalized sympathy either. No prophet started a thread saying he had no sympathy for soldiers who experienced those things. Only a self righteous jackass would start such a thread. Canada seems to have its fair share of those.
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Probably not
I don't go much for sentimentalized sympathy either. No prophet started a thread saying he had no sympathy for soldiers who experienced those things. Only a self righteous jackass would start such a thread. Canada seems to have its fair share of those.
Would you like to start another Hell thread? Or do you anticipate having done so?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Only a self righteous jackass would start such a thread.
HA!
Only a self righteous jackass ( or jackess - as per the OP ) would leave the context behind completely and call no prophet a self righteous jackass when he has shown no such self righteousness in the rest of his posting history.
On the other had RooK is from Canada so maybe you have a point.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Only a self righteous jackass would start such a thread.
HA!
Only a self righteous jackass ( or jackess - as per the OP ) would leave the context behind completely and call no prophet a self righteous jackass when he has shown no such self righteousness in the rest of his posting history.
On the other had RooK is from Canada so maybe you have a point.
You've obviously been reading a different set of posts to me. But do you really think that anyone should be allowed to post any old nonsense without being challenged on it?! And that if someone does so, they're the jackass?! Btw, this a rhetorical question as this thread isn't about you and your attempts to make it so are, frankly tedious.
Context may be a reason, but it isn't an excuse. Bullshit is still bullshit and no one should expect a free pass because of - insert justification here. Essentially, what no_prophet is saying is when bad stuff happens to some groups of people, it's their own fault because of the choices they've made. Things would have been different if they'd made better choices. (Better, of course, being choices that no_prophet approves of, like not joining the forces). That they're not worthy of love, sympathy or care. Feel free to judge them! It's an argument that gets used a lot about lots of different groups. And it's bullshit.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Probably not
I don't go much for sentimentalized sympathy either. No prophet started a thread saying he had no sympathy for soldiers who experienced those things. Only a self righteous jackass would start such a thread. Canada seems to have its fair share of those.
Would you like to start another Hell thread? Or do you anticipate having done so?
Could have sworn I deleted that last line before posting it. Oh well...
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
Frankly, I reckon if anyone knew what the job really involved and the risk you take, very few people would sign up.
I call total BULLSHIT.
Anyone not knowing the risks of going into the armed forces is either a complete fool (yes - quite possible) or willfully ignorant.
There is really no way in this day and age of information, movies and education that people in the western armed forces would not be aware of the risks.
Nobody knows the total of anything they go into ever. Not marriage, or relationships, work or war. You don't know how shit feels till you're in the shit. You don't know if you'll recover from something until you're experiencing a recovery. And you won't know you're having a hard time getting over a hard time until you've heard the doctor suggest for maybe the third time that maybe a short-course of anti-depressants mightn't be a bad idea. Or you finally realize that a 24/7 'duvet-day' isn't really normal behaviour.
You can inform yourself about the experiences of others. You can imagine what it might be like if you were in their position. You can (be foolish enough, imo, to) rely on documentaries, movies and our information-based media to prepare you mentally for your own unique response to any set of cirumstances you'll find yourself in. You may even have a fairly realistic idea, based on intelligent foresight and self-knowledge what does and does not constitute a healthy set of life choices. But until you're in the moment - from arse to elbow - you can't say how well or how poorly you truly will deal with whatever comes your way. Of course one can prepare; but preparation only defrays the contingencies of any situation. It doesn't set in stone how you will experience the situation when it actually comes.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
That's probably why it's called grey matter.
Or could be because it's grey in colour.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
That's probably why it's called grey matter.
Or could be because it's grey in colour.
Raw or cooked?
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
But until you're in the moment - from arse to elbow - you can't say how well or how poorly you truly will deal with whatever comes your way. Of course one can prepare; but preparation only defrays the contingencies of any situation. It doesn't set in stone how you will experience the situation when it actually comes.
Wise words.
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
No_prophet's original opinions were one thing, but now I find myself being pissed off by the vein of noble martyrdom that's coming across as people line up to disagree.
Just stop it, will you? The righteousness of your opinion does not increase in proportion to the number of people who tell you that they disagree with it.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
But until you're in the moment - from arse to elbow - you can't say how well or how poorly you truly will deal with whatever comes your way. Of course one can prepare; but preparation only defrays the contingencies of any situation. It doesn't set in stone how you will experience the situation when it actually comes.
Wise words.
Methinks the issue boils down to informed consent actually.
Before going into delicate surgery or trying some new medication doctors are required by law to provide informed consent. "You may die because of this or suffer permanent disability or damage. Do you still wish to proceed?" (saw it happen alot at the hospital).
Perhaps if those applying for the armed forces were told " You may die in this or end up fucked in the head, heart and soul from killing people and suffer from PTSD for the rest of your life. Do you still wish to proceed?" things might be different.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
Evensong has a point.
Not so long ago I served as a Free Church chaplain at a navy base.
All new recruits had to attend an appointment with the Chaplaincy at which we discussed matters material and spiritual.
I used to ask the question Why did you join the navy?'
Invariably the answers were along the lines ' I was unemployed'; ' I wanted to see the world' ( which is what the advertising for recruits offered)
Seldom, if ever, was the consideration of being engaged in actual warfare with attendant implications advanced.
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
I can't speak about other countries, but in the UK all those things are addressed directly during the recruitment process. At the moment the waiting list for non-officer branches of the Royal Navy, are averaging over 2 years between signing up and getting through the gates to join up. There is plenty of time for all these things to be examined in detail. In the 60s and 70s you could go down the recruiting office and be in a barracks the next week. That just doesn't happen anymore. Personally I think the 2 years is ludicrously too far the other way, and no other country seems to have the same problem with processing applications, but in the UK you are not without all the time (and more) you might need to give it some thought, grow up, change your mind, etc.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
Evensong has a point.
Not so long ago I served as a Free Church chaplain at a navy base.
All new recruits had to attend an appointment with the Chaplaincy at which we discussed matters material and spiritual.
I used to ask the question Why did you join the navy?'
Invariably the answers were along the lines ' I was unemployed'; ' I wanted to see the world' ( which is what the advertising for recruits offered)
Seldom, if ever, was the consideration of being engaged in actual warfare with attendant implications advanced.
Well true, but you and I both know that the chance of someone saying to a bish "because I wanted to kill people" is minimal. Personally, I used to have an equal amount of fun asking the sky pilots what it was *they* thought they were doing in the RN! My favourite response, from the chap who prepared me for confirmation actually, was "being." The RC types seemed to have generally been drafted by their diocesan more or less willingly, and the best chaplain I ever served with at sea was CSFC, because he actually walked the lower decks and got stuck in.
In their first 6 weeks at Raleigh though, no-one is going to say "I wanted to go to war," precisely *because* that sounds as daft to them as it does to everyone else. Lympstone on the other hand.... Oddly one chap I was with at BRNC took that line, but he didnt make it out of the college.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
That's probably why it's called grey matter.
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Or could be because it's grey in colour.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Raw or cooked?
The main colour change on cooking is the loss of a slight pinkish hue, but they are recognizably grey on the outside and white on the inside at both stages. Cooking is quite a subject, actually, as maintaining texture is a real issue. A very gentle 8 min poaching, followed by a vigorous but brief fry with a little chilli, pepper and salt seems to be the best bet.
[ 18. November 2013, 10:31: Message edited by: mdijon ]
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
No_prophet's original opinions were one thing, but now I find myself being pissed off by the vein of noble martyrdom that's coming across as people line up to disagree.
Just stop it, will you? The righteousness of your opinion does not increase in proportion to the number of people who tell you that they disagree with it.
There are a number of warning signs that I look out for when wondering if my opinion is valid or a crock of shit:
- The number of people who agree with me or are telling me I'm wrong.
- Who is agreeing or disagreeing with me.
The volume and variety of people who've pitched in to tell n_p that he's full of shit would act as a sign to me that I have veered way into flat earther, Daily Mail reader terrority and am on my way to being one of Them.
One one level, you have to admire n_p's determination to continue painting himself as somemone with deeply held moral princioles who is being given a hard time because he's expressed an unpopular opinion. On another level maybe not so much. There's a reason why some opinions are unpopular. And it's difficult to take n_p's posturing quite so seriously when you think that if he had half the moral fibre he claims, he wouldn't be expressing that opinion in the first place.
Tubbs
PS This to be the first Hell call that has tangented into a discussion of the preparation of sweetmeats. Impressive!
[ 18. November 2013, 13:07: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Methinks the issue boils down to informed consent actually.
Before going into delicate surgery or trying some new medication doctors are required by law to provide informed consent. "You may die because of this or suffer permanent disability or damage. Do you still wish to proceed?" (saw it happen alot at the hospital).
The doctors can tell you what may happen if you undergo the surgery, but they can't tell you what will happen. Moreover, they can't tell you how you will feel afterwards, which is what you really want to know.
In "informed consent" the doctor gives you all the information he can, but you cannot consent in advance to whatever the outcome will be. Nobody knows.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
And it's difficult to take n_p's posturing quite so seriously when you think that if he had half the moral fibre he claims, he wouldn't be expressing that opinion in the first place.
Tubbs
Say what now? What does sympathy, or lack of it, have to do with "moral fibre?" Moral fibre is the inner strength to do what you believe to be right in difficult situations.
NP believes it's wrong to take part in these recent wars, he has said as much in the midst of the pro-soldier, sentiment filled Remembrance
days. I would call that sticking to his principles in a difficult situation. I have more sympathy for these returning soldiers than he does, but I do admire his "moral fibre," in speaking up about his views.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Because I hadn't noted anything new in this thread per the Purg topic, I hadn't bothered to post. I had actually posted several years ago along the same lines in Purgatory, saying that we need to blame soldiers for wars, and it is not acceptable to give all of the responsibility to leaders. I continue to hold this view, this time with the slant about the excessive attention paid to the troubled soldiers returning from action. Our media is doing it, and it bothers me. I do not support the troops. Any troops.
I posted that I blame soldiers for being soldiers. I hold that it is not reasonable to simply provide sympathy for their troubles, and that they have responsibility. I have been drawn into discussion of diagnosis and various other things, and I find my emotions at times lead me to lose sight of the central point and follow arguments that are not centrally mine. The core of my argument is as I state it. I am fatigued regarding the appeals to sympathy for soldiers. I have empathy for the individuals I know, but not sympathy for soldiers and what they do.
I am not holier than anyone, not on a moral high horse. Not special except that I have expressed my perspective and that it is not held by others; I am an extremist it would seem. I believe that peace is not the solution, but that peace is the way. And I hold soldiers responsible.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Your anthem, no prophet. Enjoy, babe.
[ 18. November 2013, 14:22: Message edited by: Lyda*Rose ]
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I hold that it is not reasonable to simply provide sympathy for their troubles
Why the word "simply"? Is there some more complex, nuanced approach that includes sympathy which you approve of?
And, by the way, what about medics who go out and treat soldiers in the field? Are they equally undeserving of sympathy?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
And I hold soldiers responsible.
This only applies if we all take upon ourselves the full and absolute extent of our own 'responsibility' for every decision we make, where the outcomes are variable, contingent and in many cases actually unknown.
Eg, you have sent some strong words, ideas and philosophical concepts out into the ethernet, where their effect is incalculably complex. Are you absolutely and fully able and ready to accept responsibility for each and every consequence?
The idea is absurd. Soldiers are a small part of 'responsibility'; social, military, political. Go back far enough along this magic line of responsibility almost every one of us will be tied in to it somewhere. But most of us are protected from the knowledge of just how culpable we are, in how our decisions and choices affect our environments. Even to the extent of our choosing to create and live in a democratic nation of relative wealth and universal welfare considered precious enough to defend with armies and insulate using political policies that reduce immigration, generate conflict with competing economies and world-views etc.
I think you have a good point, now. There is such a thing as personal responsibility for military operatives at any level. World War II taught us that, surely. But there's no divorcing so easily as you seem to the relationship between your experience of, and responsibility for, your nation as you choose to live in it, and the experience of your nation's institutions in the individual person of a soldier suffering from PTSD. I don't necessarily mean anyone should feel somehow responsible in themselves for what a soldier suffers; but that they shouldn't sacrifice that common humanity Donne wrote of in his 'no man is an island' idea.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
no_prophet, the world - and it seems particularly prevalent in parts of a country south of yours - is full of morally self-righteous Christians who see suffering as a punishment for sin.
Up until this thread, I had no idea you were one of them.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
no_prophet, the world - and it seems particularly prevalent in parts of a country south of yours - is full of morally self-righteous Christians who see suffering as a punishment for sin.
Up until this thread, I had no idea you were one of them.
Sin and punishment have nothing to do with this. It is about sympathy for soldiers. I do not think that there is any punishment for sin by God. There is only a request, an offer, a question.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
no_prophet, the world - and it seems particularly prevalent in parts of a country south of yours - is full of morally self-righteous Christians who see suffering as a punishment for sin.
Up until this thread, I had no idea you were one of them.
Sin and punishment have nothing to do with this. It is about sympathy for soldiers. I do not think that there is any punishment for sin by God. There is only a request, an offer, a question.
So, soldiers have done something bad, and they deserve whatever they get as a result, but it has nothing to do with sin and punishment.
Gotcha.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
And again, and again, and again, and AGAIN, and ... WHERE is the Church in all this?
Apparently some of it is HERE
Re not joining up to fight - I recall being told that, at the height of the troubles in Northern Ireland, the Army recruiting offices in GB were overwhelmed every time a soldier got killed in NI. And yes - they thought it wouldn't happen to them. And yes - in this respect at least - I have no doubt that no_prophet is a seriously flawed advertisement for humanity
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
no_prophet--
On the upstairs thread in Purg, you mentioned that your family went through a lot of bad stuff.
So that leaves me wondering: are you mad that soldiers are getting attention, sympathy, and possibly help? 'Cause maybe your family didn't?
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
I thought of that, too. But from his current posts I think that he is mad at anyone who commits violence or who supports those who commit violence in any situation. Like soldiers, military medics, generals, and the rest of us warmongers who aren't total pacifists. Probably cops, too.
[ 19. November 2013, 03:07: Message edited by: Lyda*Rose ]
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Because I hadn't noted anything new in this thread per the Purg topic, I hadn't bothered to post. I had actually posted several years ago along the same lines in Purgatory, saying that we need to blame soldiers for wars, and it is not acceptable to give all of the responsibility to leaders. I continue to hold this view, this time with the slant about the excessive attention paid to the troubled soldiers returning from action. Our media is doing it, and it bothers me. I do not support the troops. Any troops.
I posted that I blame soldiers for being soldiers. I hold that it is not reasonable to simply provide sympathy for their troubles, and that they have responsibility. I have been drawn into discussion of diagnosis and various other things, and I find my emotions at times lead me to lose sight of the central point and follow arguments that are not centrally mine. The core of my argument is as I state it. I am fatigued regarding the appeals to sympathy for soldiers. I have empathy for the individuals I know, but not sympathy for soldiers and what they do.
I am not holier than anyone, not on a moral high horse. Not special except that I have expressed my perspective and that it is not held by others; I am an extremist it would seem. I believe that peace is not the solution, but that peace is the way. And I hold soldiers responsible.
Evensong, am I to understand that you actually support this plank and his offensive, illogical nonsense? Or are you just doing your "I stand up for the underdog" schtick?
no_prophet, it would be wonderful if we lived in a world made of rainbows and fountains, where there was no oppression and no violence. As that is not the case, we have armies, where our boys and girls are trained to follow orders. More than any other job, soldiers are trained to obey orders. According to you, these people are supposed to simply reverse all of this training and not engage in warfare. And not just one of them, or some of them. All of them. And if they don't, you hold them personally responsible for wars happening, rather than the leaders who issue orders and - see if you get this part - actually take responsibility for issuing those orders.
I have noticed in the past a tendency you have not to engage, to ignore facts and data that contradicts your ideologies, and basically to be a tool. So Evensong's assertion that you have not done this sort of thing before is either ignorance or willful blindness.
Whenever you are willing to join us here in reality, give me a yell. I will be right over here, waiting with baited breath. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
no_prophet, it would be wonderful if we lived in a world made of rainbows and fountains, where there was no oppression and no violence. As that is not the case, we have armies, where our boys and girls are trained to follow orders. More than any other job, soldiers are trained to obey orders. According to you, these people are supposed to simply reverse all of this training and not engage in warfare. And not just one of them, or some of them. All of them. And if they don't, you hold them personally responsible for wars happening, rather than the leaders who issue orders and - see if you get this part - actually take responsibility for issuing those orders.
The judges at Nuremburg disagreed with your general thesis. "Obeying orders" is not a get-out-of-responsibility-free card.
Can you imagine a world where, no matter how much politicians rant and rave about the necessity of killing a bunch of people from some other country, the normal people refuse to do it? Wouldn't it be fabulous?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
no_prophet, it would be wonderful if we lived in a world made of rainbows and fountains, where there was no oppression and no violence. As that is not the case, we have armies, where our boys and girls are trained to follow orders. More than any other job, soldiers are trained to obey orders. According to you, these people are supposed to simply reverse all of this training and not engage in warfare. And not just one of them, or some of them. All of them. And if they don't, you hold them personally responsible for wars happening, rather than the leaders who issue orders and - see if you get this part - actually take responsibility for issuing those orders.
The judges at Nuremburg disagreed with your general thesis. "Obeying orders" is not a get-out-of-responsibility-free card.
Can you imagine a world where, no matter how much politicians rant and rave about the necessity of killing a bunch of people from some other country, the normal people refuse to do it? Wouldn't it be fabulous?
It would be. ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif) On a scale of likelihood between one and ten, what do you reckon?! ![[Biased]](wink.gif) But, until then, we have solders.
Of course solders should be held accountable for their actions if they break the various conventions that relate to the conduct of warfare. But, as I’ve said before and no doubt will again, they’re not responsible for the wars in the first place. That’s the politician’s call. But arguing that solders have automatically done something bad and deserve whatever they get as a result?! Nah! It’s not even sin and punishment, it’s vengeful and spiteful. Dressed up as principled pacifism to make it look better. Newsflash, it doesn’t! Stick a bow on shit and it’s still shit. But with a bow on.
And while someone’s family history may be a reason, it’s not an excuse. A friend works for a recruiter and was asked, off the record, by one of their clients not to send any black people along for interview as they’d recently been burgled and the person arrested for the crime was black. This obviously meant that all black people were thieving bastards that they wouldn’t want in their office. Obviously. . ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) Friend pointed out that this was only slightly illegal and that they’d been burgled previously by white people so someone’s skin colour wasn’t necessarily a cast iron indication of thieving bastard-ism.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
The judges at Nuremburg disagreed with your general thesis. "Obeying orders" is not a get-out-of-responsibility-free card.
Agreed, but neither can one visit complete personal responsibility for war on each individual soldier who goes off to fight. You might as well hold the population that supports them equally responsible for continuing to collaborate in the running of the society that supports the war effort. While we all cooperate with the system, the system keeps running.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
An individual soldier should disobey orders they know to be illegal. The decision about the legality of a particular war is well above their pay grade. They can only be responsible for how they conduct the war.
And saying that all wars are started by a nations leaders against the wishes of the average person is simply naive.
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
It seems the question boils down to:
Who is to blame for sanctioned murder? Who is responsible?
So far we have:
a) soldiers
b) politicians
c) the system (us)
Do we have a d) or an e) ?
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
no_prophet, it would be wonderful if we lived in a world made of rainbows and fountains, where there was no oppression and no violence. As that is not the case, we have armies, where our boys and girls are trained to follow orders. More than any other job, soldiers are trained to obey orders. According to you, these people are supposed to simply reverse all of this training and not engage in warfare. And not just one of them, or some of them. All of them. And if they don't, you hold them personally responsible for wars happening, rather than the leaders who issue orders and - see if you get this part - actually take responsibility for issuing those orders.
The judges at Nuremburg disagreed with your general thesis. "Obeying orders" is not a get-out-of-responsibility-free card.
That's a misrepresentation. Those prosecuted at Nuremberg were officers and leaders for the most part, along with some prominent civilians. So they would be the leaders I referred to above.
quote:
Can you imagine a world where, no matter how much politicians rant and rave about the necessity of killing a bunch of people from some other country, the normal people refuse to do it? Wouldn't it be fabulous?
Oh, I can imagine it. It seems no_prophet thinks we live in it. He's wrong.
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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
When did Gandhi blame soldiers for war? Is this bad example day, and I didn't get the memo?
And did you just compare no_prophet to Gandhi? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
no_prophet--
On the upstairs thread in Purg, you mentioned that your family went through a lot of bad stuff.
So that leaves me wondering: are you mad that soldiers are getting attention, sympathy, and possibly help? 'Cause maybe your family didn't?
I'm not mad. Just not sympathetic. I hold soldiers more responsible than most, both for their actions and the results of their actions, including their post-war consequences. I find the 'support the troops' and focus on suffering of soldiers excessive and annoying. There are more people who never put themselves "in harm's way' who were harmed. --There was only one survivor of WW2 in Europe in my family, all the rest were killed, men, women and children. The ones in the German army may have been better off that way because we know their units participated in atrocities, though the last one was killed while a POW in Michigan in Oct 1945, probably also a war crime. Probably I should stop talking to my nearly 90 year old father.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
That's a misrepresentation. Those prosecuted at Nuremberg were officers and leaders for the most part, along with some prominent civilians. So they would be the leaders I referred to above.
Officers still have to obey the orders of their superiors, just like any other soldiers. And in Nazi Germany there's a good argument for saying that anyone who wasn't Hitler had to obey the orders their superiors gave. So if some ranks can't be blamed for following orders but other ranks can, at what point do you draw the line?
quote:
quote:
Can you imagine a world where, no matter how much politicians rant and rave about the necessity of killing a bunch of people from some other country, the normal people refuse to do it? Wouldn't it be fabulous?
Oh, I can imagine it. It seems no_prophet thinks we live in it. He's wrong.
There's no fundamental reason why we can't be living in that world tomorrow. We just need to stop listening to the warmongering bastards who are leading our countries. That's easier in some countries than others, of course, but it's impossible in none.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
And yes - in this respect at least - I have no doubt that no_prophet is a seriously flawed advertisement for humanity
And that's what I call passing judgment on another specific individual. there's all types of self-righteousness going on here.
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs: Newsflash, Stick a bow on shit and it’s still shit. But with a bow on.
What a perfect description of the yellow ribbon, support our troops, campaign that ignores the fact that there are just as many wounded and dead on the other side.
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Yes, lots of people are responsible for war. All our congressmen and women who voted for the war, the sitting president, the soldiers who joined to fight, and all the people who keep on saying it's a great thing under the "support the troops, no matter what," rule. If we don't dare to speak against it, it just contributes to the full circle -- our elected politicians think it's what we want - our young men and women think we'll be proud as punch over their sacrifice. It has to stop somewhere.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
That's a misrepresentation. Those prosecuted at Nuremberg were officers and leaders for the most part, along with some prominent civilians. So they would be the leaders I referred to above.
Officers still have to obey the orders of their superiors, just like any other soldiers. And in Nazi Germany there's a good argument for saying that anyone who wasn't Hitler had to obey the orders their superiors gave. So if some ranks can't be blamed for following orders but other ranks can, at what point do you draw the line?
Probably where it was drawn at Nuremberg. As I've already said, enlisted soldiers weren't tried there, only the higher ups.
There is a great deal of difference between the level of agency exercised by a commanding officer as compared to a junior officer, and then again compared to an enlisted soldier. Responsibility should be judged accordingly. That isn't hard to understand, but it is complex. Also, there is a great deal of difference between the normal fighting between soldiers in war, and war crimes. But I suspect you know that already.
quote:
There's no fundamental reason why we can't be living in that world tomorrow. We just need to stop listening to the warmongering bastards who are leading our countries. That's easier in some countries than others, of course, but it's impossible in none.
I'd say tomorrow it is as close to impossible as you can imagine. The kind of peaceful non-violent non-cooperation practiced by the aforementioned (and greatly missed) Gandhi, as well as MLK, took a long period of development and, more importantly, really strong charismatic leadership. If you know of someone capable of that tomorrow, I don't. And I really need to, because what you're talking about needs us all (and I mean ALL) to cooperate at once in this kind of peaceful resistance. If only some decide to lay down their arms in non-violence, it isn't hard to imagine what might come next. Probably not the utopia you are anticipating.
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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
....
quote:
quote:
Can you imagine a world where, no matter how much politicians rant and rave about the necessity of killing a bunch of people from some other country, the normal people refuse to do it? Wouldn't it be fabulous?
Oh, I can imagine it. It seems no_prophet thinks we live in it. He's wrong.
There's no fundamental reason why we can't be living in that world tomorrow. We just need to stop listening to the warmongering bastards who are leading our countries. That's easier in some countries than others, of course, but it's impossible in none.
Some of us had a bloody good go at telling the warmongering bastards who were in charge at the time of the Iraq war we didn't want them to go and fight in our name. Fat lot of notice they took. That doesn't stop us from having another go next time around, but we may need to start electing non-warmongering bastards to office as well.
Tubbs
[ 19. November 2013, 19:48: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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