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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: no_prophet, no_brain more like ...
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
An individual soldier should disobey orders they know to be illegal.
In some armies this disobedience will lead to their execution.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
It seems the question boils down to:
Who is to blame for sanctioned murder? Who is responsible?
So far we have:
a) soldiers
b) politicians
c) the system (us)
Do we have a d) or an e) ?
I'll go for d) "sanctioned murder" is usually a contradiction in terms, given that 'murder' is a legal term for unlawful killing, and if it's properly sanctioned it is not, by definition, murder.
But hey, let's just use the words 'kill' and 'murder' interchangeably, practically everybody else does.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
Some of us had a bloody good go at telling the warmongering bastards who were in charge at the time of the Iraq war we didn't want them to go and fight in our name. Fat lot of notice they took. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) That doesn't stop us from having another go next time around, but we may need to start electing non-warmongering bastards to office as well.
I'm not sure any such politicians exist. It's the "if you've got it you want to use it" principle - they've got an army so they want to find an excuse to use it.
But if the army refused to fight any war that didn't involve actual invaders trying to cross the border, we wouldn't have to worry about it. The politicians can wax lyrical about how utterly vital it is to kill more Afghans/Iraqis/Iranians/etc., and the rest of us can just ignore them and get on with living. And so, more to the point, can the Afghans/Iraqis/Iranians/etc.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I'm not sure any such politicians exist. It's the "if you've got it you want to use it" principle - they've got an army so they want to find an excuse to use it.
There seem to be plenty of countries that are quite good at not deploying their armies. I would hazard Switzerland as an example.
They're just not the countries most of us live in.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
There seem to be plenty of countries that are quite good at not deploying their armies. I would hazard Switzerland as an example.
Good point.
So what is it that's stopping us all being like Switzerland - with a good, effective army that's never actually used?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
*shrug*
Possibly a lack of Alps.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
We have lots of water surrounding us instead, though.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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snowgoose
Silly goose
# 4394
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Posted
Human nature being what it is, the only reasonable answer to "Why don't you and I lay down our weapons and be friends" is "Okay, you go first."
Even if every nation in the world agreed to destroy all their weapons, and succeeded in doing so, there would come a time when one group or another made new weapons and started the whole damn thing over again. I would not like to be the unarmed neighbor of that group.
My great-grandfather was a medic at Gallipoli. I find it inconceivable not to have sympathy for everyone--in whatever army, on whichever side, in whatever capacity--who was there.
And the Band Played 'Waltzing Matilda"
[ 20. November 2013, 15:41: Message edited by: snowgoose ]
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Lord, what can the harvest hope for, if not for the care of the Reaper Man? --Terry Pratchett
Save a Siamese!
Posts: 3868 | From: Tidewater Virginia | Registered: Apr 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
We have lots of water surrounding us instead, though.
Yeah, but water's flat. Piece of cake.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
like Switzerland - with a good, effective army that's never actually used?
Actually they do see use.
Though these colourful fellows, not as much.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
From the Messianic Judaism thread:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
And seeing as I started with a tangent, I'll end with one: the torture president George Bush is a war criminal.
I got no love for W. but he was neither the first nor last POTUS to sanction torture or extraordinary rendition.
But those terrorists/enemy combatants knew what they were getting themselves into, right? They don't deserve our fucking sympathy.
You hypocritical little weasel.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
It seems the question boils down to:
Who is to blame for sanctioned murder? Who is responsible?
...
All of us.
Which is why anybody involved deserves sympathy.
IF, however, they commit unsanctioned mayhem, or do not admit they have issue, then no, they do not deserve sympathy.
BTW, the whole idea that somebody who is seeking support should not be supported I find just fucked up.
Life is too short, its too whacked out, and all of us are in some way messed up. So to spend part of it staying pissed at people who are actively seeking help, seems a waste of breath.
Can't stay that angry at people who admit they have issues and are genuinely trying to get help.
Rob Ford...now him I can stay mad at because the ass-hat isn't admitting a HUGE load of crap he has done and is doing, while he keeps saying sorry for doing little stuff.
But soldiers coming back from a war? To not provide support for somebody with PTSD? That's just not worth the effort staying angry.
I get everybody has an ass-hat to stay mad at.
But, to spend so much sanctimony on despising people...that's just a waste of the little time we have on earth.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
From the Messianic Judaism thread:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
And seeing as I started with a tangent, I'll end with one: the torture president George Bush is a war criminal.
I got no love for W. but he was neither the first nor last POTUS to sanction torture or extraordinary rendition.
But those terrorists/enemy combatants knew what they were getting themselves into, right? They don't deserve our fucking sympathy.
You hypocritical little weasel.
What's the hypocritical part? The thread's basis is about this particular hero of your's doing a speech. He specifically led people into doing torture. All of them are responsible for their behaviour, though the extent of your friend George's responsibility is greater.
And I'm not a weasel. I'm a skunk. And you're an Irish Lard Ass.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
You're a hypocrite because you have sympathy for the soldiers of one side, and not the other. You're a hypocrite because you single out W (who is not my hero, fuck you very much) as a torturer and ignore Clinton and obama's sanctioning of torture and extraordinary rendition.
And my ass is tight as a drum. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
You're a hypocrite because you have sympathy for the soldiers of one side, and not the other. You're a hypocrite because you single out W (who is not my hero, fuck you very much) as a torturer and ignore Clinton and obama's sanctioning of torture and extraordinary rendition.
Not at all. They're all part of the same. George was mentioned in the OP. The others weren't, i.e., I don't think any of them gave a speech to a messianic Judaism group.
I'm not sure that your current guy is different, and while I don't understand the differences between the political parties there, they seem pretty much the same. Obama could be from either party I think. Clinton? As person he seemed to have some genuine warmth lacking in the others. He has the best neckties of the group, which is a surefire way to judge politicians. If you'd like Harper, he's a match.
quote:
And my ass is tight as a drum.
Fibre in the diet may help you. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I'm not sure that your current guy is different, and while I don't understand the differences between the political parties there, they seem pretty much the same. Obama could be from either party I think.
On this, at least, we agree.
But the point still stands: the captured terrorist knew what he was getting himself into, but we should still treat him humanely. (With which I agree, BTW)
Our soldiers knew what he was getting himself into, so fuck 'em. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I'm not sure that your current guy is different, and while I don't understand the differences between the political parties there, they seem pretty much the same. Obama could be from either party I think.
On this, at least, we agree.
But the point still stands: the captured terrorist knew what he was getting himself into, but we should still treat him humanely. (With which I agree, BTW)
Our soldiers knew what he was getting himself into, so fuck 'em.
Humane treatment (which evidently we agree on) is different than highlighting soldier suffering as something special and worthy of extra attention.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Humane treatment (which evidently we agree on) is different than highlighting soldier suffering as something special and worthy of extra attention.
But you started this conversation by arguing the suffering soldier deserved less attention than anyone else.
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
...they are traumatised psychologically. I find myself unsympathetic.... You made your bed, have your nightmares in it.... Do we think the WW2 concentration and extermination camp guards warrant our sympathy as well? Not happening, just not happening.
Which doesn't at all sound like an argument for humane treatment to me.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
NP, the indifference you have shown to human suffering is never humane.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
NP, the indifference you have shown to human suffering is never humane.
Nah, he's human. Sort of. You're suffering Too bad.
But if he's suffering? ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
hold my hand, ![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif) ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
[ 21. November 2013, 17:37: Message edited by: PeteC ]
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I wish it was my whose hand which needed holding. But it is not. It is someone else. And I don't abide excuses for murderous behaviour being that something bad was done me in turn. Which is exactly what we got IRL. -- If I have regrets over the topic here and what I started in Purgatory, it is about my emotions clouding my thinking, and personalizing the issue.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
We can't help personalizing issues, that's just human nature and, in NP's case, that's what makes me think that he would actually have sympathy if he came into contact with a suffering veteran in real life. Because he's a nice guy, and because his anger at soldiers in his OP was general and theoretical, not personal.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
It wasn't personal in the sense of naming a specific individual, but if you're a soldier reading the thread or a loved one of a soldier I expect it's pretty personal to read;
quote:
...they are traumatised psychologically. I find myself unsympathetic.... You made your bed, have your nightmares in it.... Do we think the WW2 concentration and extermination camp guards warrant our sympathy as well? Not happening, just not happening.
I certainly don't think "general and theoretical" would cover it any better than "humane".
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
No Prophet is more than a little mixed up on the subject of the military. On the one hand he urged people to observe Remembrance Day, and on the other we have his quotes in the Purgatory thread, and this Gem from a thread on World War II last year… “The candle for the soldier is misplaced”.
I wonder if he realises that some of the money he paid to buy his poppy, and which he urges others to buy goes towards rehabilitating members of the armed forces who have received wounds, both physical and mental.
I hope so, and I hope it sticks in his craw.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I wish it was my whose hand which needed holding. But it is not. It is someone else. And I don't abide excuses for murderous behaviour being that something bad was done me in turn. Which is exactly what we got IRL. -- If I have regrets over the topic here and what I started in Purgatory, it is about my emotions clouding my thinking, and personalizing the issue.
There is a significant difference, however, between having sympathy for what has happened to someone (which is what you told us all we shouldn't have in the case of soldiers), and treating what has happened to someone as some kind of excuse for anything and everything.
Even when it provides an explanation for something, whether it provides an excuse isn't the same question.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Orfeo is correct, and Twilight is probably too kind.
Without going on too personally, my response to the morphing of remembrance, in the context of what a particular soldier claimed caused his conduct, was emotional and then generalized. I know it is risky to ever attempt to work through one's crap on an internet forum, but it has worked several times in helpful directions for me. This may make me worthy of being called asshole, and that's all right with me because I certainly have the capacity. I apologise to have given offence to any number of you, and I promise to think a little more when emotions trouble me, though I cannot guarantee myself. (I also thank the PM system of these forums.)
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Orfeo is correct, and Twilight is probably too kind.
Without going on too personally, my response to the morphing of remembrance, in the context of what a particular soldier claimed caused his conduct, was emotional and then generalized. I know it is risky to ever attempt to work through one's crap on an internet forum, but it has worked several times in helpful directions for me. This may make me worthy of being called asshole, and that's all right with me because I certainly have the capacity. I apologise to have given offence to any number of you, and I promise to think a little more when emotions trouble me, though I cannot guarantee myself. (I also thank the PM system of these forums.)
Arsehole.
And, now for the serious bit ... That's very brave of you, n_p. Thank you. My immediate family isn't Forces, but some fought in WW2 and others did national service. My husband has family who served, one as a Medic. We've also had friends with family members who enlisted. Some of them never came home. These were / are good people. For that reason, your posts were a bit hard to take.
On the basis of this post, I'm good. If a passing Hell Host wants to close this thread, then that's fine. (I know I could do it myself, but that would just be weird).
Tubbs
[ 22. November 2013, 20:39: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
We're all about weird. Group hugs in Hell are damn weird.
But they're still nice sometimes.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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