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Source: (consider it) Thread: Hell: "It's because of people like you"
Plique-à-jour
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# 17717

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quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
]As far as I know the term is applied to males who are allies. So how are you saying they aren't allies? [Confused]

Google 'male allies'.

The rest of your post I can't address because it has no point of contact with reality that I can discern, sorry.

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Posts: 333 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jun 2013  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Plique-à-jour:
I wasn't saying they were your allies. You know the term 'male ally'? I was using that term.

The video is being criticised, but the discussion isn't being shut down.

Ah. I see. As in, men who support feminism?

You'd be happy to know that I would disagree with a woman who said all men are sexist every bit as much as I would disagree with a man who said that. So again, I'm not effectively saying anything specifically to male allies.

It's simply a wrong thing to say, and a very unproductive one. As I said on the Purgatory thread, before this elegant little diversion arose, declaring all men to be sexist is not, in my opinion, going to do anything to recruit more men to the cause of feminism. Not even the ones who get the bad end of the patriarchal deal. Like me, for instance. Dear Lord, if I had a dollar for every time I've had the sensation of not fitting in with the standard male image...

And as I said there, forcing people back into their own little corners of self-interest is the exact opposite of achieving the goal. To make progress, people need to be able to step outside themselves and gain insight into people unlike themselves.

And then they need to talk about their insights. But a male ally who 'gets it' turning to around to all the potential male allies and shouting "You're all Sexist Pigs" isn't an insight. It's not sharing a journey, unless the journey was one of total self-abasement. It's not an invitation to further dialogue, it's a declaration that dialogue is inherently impossible: men are sexist, all of them, inherently, irredeemably, by the very virtue of being men.

It's also remarkably like what some converts do (including here on the Ship).

In all seriousness, what do you think anybody's response is to being told they have some kind of unchangeable bad characteristic? Are you at all aware of the work on racism done by Jane Elliott with blue-eyed and brown-eyed people (initially the children in her own school class), demonstrating what happens when you tell people they are inherently bad? They fulfil your lowered expectations. Psychologically, they figure they might as well prove you right because you've shown there's no hope of proving you wrong. It's an inherent, permanent characteristic that applies to all members of the group, always.

If you want to encourage men to not be sexist, declarations that All Men Are Sexist is precisely not the way to do it. Saying that all men are sexist is what you do if your goal is to defeat men, if you've decided that men are NEVER going to be on the side of women so women must aim to win the contest instead. It's an affirmation of an oppositional mentality, not a dismantling of it.

But male allies do need to talk about their insights. That's what I said in the thread. So it's fairly weird to have you claiming that I want male allies to shut up. I would note that you left the male feminist thread before I ever entered it. And you said you haven't been back to it. Therefore, you don't actually know any of what I said (or the content of any of the original exchange with seekingsister, which makes your attempts to get involved down here somewhat strange).

As for shutting down discussion... if you want to discuss Ship policy on when a discussion might actually be closed (not something that happens a great deal) then I suggest the best place to raise that is Styx. If you're trying to imply that EE's discussion hasn't been shut down but other discussions have been shut down then I'll simply say you're wrong. Threads are still going, even if you've decided you won't participate in them. Again, I would note that the chain of events that led you to decide to leave that thread were being dealt with in Styx.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Plique-à-jour
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The shutting down I'm talking about is obstruction, not thread-closing.

Nobody ever said all men are sexist. A man said something that wasn't that, and you're not letting the inanity of claiming that a man attacked all men prevent you from, indeed, claiming that, because it makes sense to you that anyone who doesn't think soft-pedalling oppression helps MUST BE an unbalanced man-hater. Your misrepresentations are rationalised by positing a total irrationality on the part of your target. 'Yes, it doesn't make sense does it? Well, they're like that!'

A man initially made the point. I'm a man. I got the point. Nothing is stopping other men from getting the point. I used to feel like defending myself whenever the crimes of men against women were discussed accurately. I grew out of it. Everyone grows up unless they decide not to. The idea that you have to recruit the men who will lose interest if you clear your throat strikes me as centrist garbage, designed to achieve precisely nothing. Men become allies by becoming ready to hear what women have to say. If you tailor your message to the audience, you're going to draw the unready. Like New Labour.

But, of course, if you just want to be popular, that will probably work.

[ 30. August 2013, 17:28: Message edited by: Plique-à-jour ]

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lilBuddha
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Plique-à-jour and seekingsister,

Some thoughts.
Context. Context. Context.
Every conversation is contextual. It is not only what someone says in a specific post, but what they say in the bulk of their posts. More specifically, their track record. Context might be a bit difficult until you have more time here.*
Dynamics.
The dynamics of any community play a part in every discussion. Who you conflict with can skew the reaction as much as what you are confronting.**
Tone.
Tone contributes a great deal as well. Much of what you say will be lost if the tone is too divisive.
Yes, in Hell we are allowed to disregard all of this. But, IMO, the best Hell threads do not ignore any of this, even when getting nasty.

*This is not to say we must ever fail to confront positions we believe to be wrong. Nor that we should give a pass to those we like.
**If one treats harshly a community member who is viewed as reasonable and thoughtful, one loses much sympathy. One can disagree with them, but the vitriol is seen as misplaced.

Racism and sexism are especially difficult topics. For one they are not on/off positions, but rather graded scales. If one argues on/off, those on the lesser end of the scale will learn nothing.

Feel free to tell me to sod off, I can handle it.

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Hallellou, hallellou

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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It's remarkable how little of that last post resembles anything I've ever thought or said.

[X-post with lilbuddha, dammit. I was definitely NOT referring to lilbuddha.]

[ 30. August 2013, 17:41: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Plique-à-jour
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# 17717

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Let me clarify: I still feel implicated and occasionally accused when these things are said about men, but that's because I *am* implicated. Engagement isn't about cosiness. All western protesters against capitalism have enjoyed benefits from capitalism. They didn't have to opt in - it's called privilege. Our unease about that is not problematic, to my mind; ease would be problematic. Where the patriarchy is concerned, I don't want to be the man who goes 'cuh, don't you know anything?' at easy targets like Mitt Romney and Donald Trump, but then walks away when his own privilege is pointed out to him.

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orfeo

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# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Plique-à-jour:
But, of course, if you just want to be popular, that will probably work.

Again: Hi there, my name's orfeo. Clearly we haven't met before.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Plique-à-jour
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# 17717

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

**If one treats harshly a community member who is viewed as reasonable and thoughtful, one loses much sympathy. One can disagree with them, but the vitriol is seen as misplaced.

Racism and sexism are especially difficult topics. For one they are not on/off positions, but rather graded scales. If one argues on/off, those on the lesser end of the scale will learn nothing.

Feel free to tell me to sod off, I can handle it.

Thanks for all of this post. I'm aware that people side with their buddies; that was the point I made earlier to QLib. It's a question of who is regarded as reasonable by whom, on what subject. For people who simply don't want to hear a certain perspective, the tone will always be wrong, and if the speaker defends their position, their 'vitriol' becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Anyone gets snappy if they're answering multiple posters who all agree with each other in real time, especially if they're being derisive. Context is vitally important, of course; the derision of an admin has a different impact from the derision of a new poster.

It's because I know they're graded scales that I am comfortable with the attribution of the patriarchy to 'men'. I'm not arguing on/off, as far as I understand what you mean by that.

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Plique-à-jour:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

**If one treats harshly a community member who is viewed as reasonable and thoughtful, one loses much sympathy. One can disagree with them, but the vitriol is seen as misplaced.

Racism and sexism are especially difficult topics. For one they are not on/off positions, but rather graded scales. If one argues on/off, those on the lesser end of the scale will learn nothing.

Feel free to tell me to sod off, I can handle it.

Thanks for all of this post. I'm aware that people side with their buddies;
This is not what I meant. There are people here who I neither like nor dislike but will consider their opinion more carefully than others.
I will disagree with people who I do like and agree with people who I do not particularly care for.
I will add another thought. Read and attempt to process what is actually written.
We all process through our own particular filtres, but we discuss better when we recognise this.

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Hallellou, hallellou

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Plique-à-jour
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# 17717

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Plique-à-jour:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

**If one treats harshly a community member who is viewed as reasonable and thoughtful, one loses much sympathy. One can disagree with them, but the vitriol is seen as misplaced.

Racism and sexism are especially difficult topics. For one they are not on/off positions, but rather graded scales. If one argues on/off, those on the lesser end of the scale will learn nothing.

Feel free to tell me to sod off, I can handle it.

Thanks for all of this post. I'm aware that people side with their buddies;
This is not what I meant. There are people here who I neither like nor dislike but will consider their opinion more carefully than others.
I will disagree with people who I do like and agree with people who I do not particularly care for.
I will add another thought. Read and attempt to process what is actually written.
We all process through our own particular filtres, but we discuss better when we recognise this.

Say 'familiar faces' rather than 'buddies', then. It's the same principle.

I have invariably responded to what has been written. The idea that I must not know how to have a discussion because I accurately perceive and disagree with the arguments of people you know better than you know me is ill-founded.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Plique-à-jour:
Say 'familiar faces' rather than 'buddies', then. It's the same principle.

No, no it is not. I mean the aggregate of ones positions outweigh one post in most cases.

quote:
Originally posted by Plique-à-jour:

I have invariably responded to what has been written. The idea that I must not know how to have a discussion because I accurately perceive and disagree with the arguments of people you know better than you know me is ill-founded.

Our perceptions are rarely as accurate as we perceive them, it is the nature of how the brain works. It is my opinion that you have reacted more to the subject than to the actual words. I may be wrong, that has certainly happened before.

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Hallellou, hallellou

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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LilBuddha stuck up for me earlier on this thread. I noticed. It was probably the nicest things to come out of this thread. That doesn't make me her 'buddy' who she will agree with all the time. Nothing could be further from the truth.
I have, on occasion, locked horns with lilBuddha quite forcefully. On at least one occasion it got distinctly uncomfortable. The whole reason for it getting distinctly uncomfortable is because I have an awful lot of respect for lilBuddha and care what she thinks - I find her contributions consistently valuable.

I especially find them valuable when she doesn't agree with everything I've said, or thought without saying, and challenges me. That's what make debate interesting - having different ideas thrown at you. So long as they're coherent, thought out ideas.

It's not about mindless agreement for the sake of agreement. For the sake of being popular. Hence my "we obviously haven't met" response to the notion of wanting to be popular. Anyone who has spent time sharing a piece of the internet with me learns that I'm not terribly interested in agreeing with people just to keep the peace. There are at least 3 Tori Amos boards full of people who can testify to this... because if I think someone's saying something that is a load of crap, I will call them on it. I have a well-developed reputation as a bullshit detector.

Because the alternative is the first person to say something on a thread wins the unalienable position of being right. No matter how wrong they are.

The main reason I don't have as strong a reputation for this on the Ship is that this place is absolutely chock full of people armed with bullshit detectors. When a bunch of people all line up around here, it isn't because they're a bunch of 'buddies'. It's because they're all very well practiced at testing ideas and they've all come to the same conclusion about the particular idea.

A 'buddy' is someone who will agree with you that 2 plus 2 equals 5 even when they know it's probably 4. If, on the other hand, you declare that 2 plus 2 equals 4, the only person who will say that all the other people who subsequently agree that it does indeed equal 4 are 'buddies' is someone who is determined that it's actually 5 and there's some kind of dark conspiracy afoot.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Plique-à-jour
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# 17717

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Plique-à-jour:
Say 'familiar faces' rather than 'buddies', then. It's the same principle.

No, no it is not. I mean the aggregate of ones positions outweigh one post in most cases.
Indeed, you're more likely to give people you've known longer the benefit of the doubt, as seekingsister said earlier. How many different ways ought I rephrase it?


quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
When a bunch of people all line up around here, it isn't because they're a bunch of 'buddies'. It's because they're all very well practiced at testing ideas and they've all come to the same conclusion about the particular idea.

They're all very well practiced at testing each other's ideas. It would be a pretty unique phenomenon if their acquaintance with each other didn't play some role in the reception of those ideas. Remind me why we're doing this semantic tennis?

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orfeo

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# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Plique-à-jour:
Remind me why we're doing this semantic tennis?

Mostly because a few of us think that referring to buddies is a lazy way of explaining why more than one person might disagree with one's position.

You don't appear capable of working out that the people who happen to disagree with you on this particular occasion will quite happily be on opposing sides of some other debate on the Ship. You've deduced from a single point of data: because you can see a particular list of Shipmates agreeing with each other at this moment, they're buddies who habitually agree with each other.

Which is tosh. You need a far larger sampling set than one thread to ascertain any trends as to how often poster X will agree with or stand up for poster Y.

I mean, off the top of my head I suspect I actually agreed with YOU during your contribution on the original male feminism thread. Shock. Horror. What are the odds? Encountering you on 2 threads and thinking you had a point on one while thinking you're badly misguided on the second?

[ 30. August 2013, 18:42: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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orfeo

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# 13878

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Actually, the most obvious refutation of your whole theory is the considerable number of people who I've known on the Ship for 5 years and still think the vast majority of their ideas are tosh. Your proposition is that becoming more familiar with them should have made me more receptive. There are lots of cases where it hasn't.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Plique-à-jour
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# 17717

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Plique-à-jour:
Remind me why we're doing this semantic tennis?

Mostly because a few of us think that referring to buddies is a lazy way of explaining why more than one person might disagree with one's position.

You don't appear capable of working out that the people who happen to disagree with you on this particular occasion will quite happily be on opposing sides of some other debate on the Ship. You've deduced from a single point of data: because you can see a particular list of Shipmates agreeing with each other at this moment, they're buddies who habitually agree with each other.

Which is tosh. You need a far larger sampling set than one thread to ascertain any trends as to how often poster X will agree with or stand up for poster Y.

I mean, off the top of my head I suspect I actually agreed with YOU during your contribution on the original male feminism thread. Shock. Horror. What are the odds? Encountering you on 2 threads and thinking you had a point on one while thinking you're badly misguided on the second?

What?

I haven't deduced anything, I was responding to lilBuddha's suggestion that familiarity was a factor. I genuinely don't care what emotions go through your mind as you agree with any of the other people who want seekingsister to apologise/shut up. I wouldn't even speculate.

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Plique-à-jour
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# 17717

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Actually, the most obvious refutation of your whole theory is the considerable number of people who I've known on the Ship for 5 years and still think the vast majority of their ideas are tosh. Your proposition is that becoming more familiar with them should have made me more receptive. There are lots of cases where it hasn't.

I haven't suggested it would make you more receptive, but I think, all things being equal, it would make you more likely to respect the foundation of their thinking in lived experience. Less likely to patronise them. Seekingsister was talking about the way people actually use language.

[ 30. August 2013, 19:03: Message edited by: Plique-à-jour ]

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
None of that has anything to do with your bullshit claim that "if you're male and not sexist then 'all men are sexist' doesn't apply to you". Which is the claim we're arguing about here. Really and for true.

Which I've explained as the type of person the internet tends to be exceptionally cruel to is how I deal with it. I ignore it. I have to or I will go insane.
As I said in this post, the internet is not a monolith. Each site has its own characteristics.

It is inappropriate to assume that the ship is like the sites where people have treated you cruelly.

Moo

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:

My background is relevant because the internet tends to assume all posters are male and whatever dominant ethnicity. You'd be amazed even when I use a female screen name as I do here that I'm referred to as "he." It informs my perspective.

I usually use "he" for a person whose sex I don't know, if I need to use a pronoun, because that's how the English language works. If it's important that I phrase something in a way that is explicitly gender-inclusive, I'll try to rephrase it in a way that doesn't use a personal pronoun. The gender-neutral "he" seems to be falling out of favour these days, so I find myself taking this second option more often. I find the singular "they" unaesthetic, and constructions like he/she clumsy, so tend to avoid them if I can. Mrs. Cniht once had a (female) German tutor, who addressed the entirely female class (in English) with the wonderful sentence "Will everybody ensure that he has handed in his homework before he leaves today." I don't think even I would push the gender-neutral "he" quite that far, though.

I am quite sure that I begin with a default assumption that some random person is a bit like me. I suppose it's because I find it easier to think about people as people, so I need some kind of mental picture. There are people who I have not met, but correspond with regularly, who exist as a kind of amorphous white man in my head. One of those is a Japanese woman, who I am quite sure looks nothing like my generic white male person blob, but until I meet her, I'll picture her with my default image.

I probably also start with a weak assumption that an interlocutor has a similar background and set of cultural references to me, again because it's easier to start with a picture of a default person than a blank slate. This set of assumptions are very weakly held, though - in your case, I read your screen-name on your first post and assumed "African-American woman". Given that I haven't met you, or seen your picture, you still look like a generic white man-blob in my head, though, and I'm pretty sure that in real life you don't.

None of these assumptions - that anyone else is a person who is basically a bit like me - is stronger than a token placeholder which gets updated when I have actual information. But I think that's the way my brain works, and I'd be surprised if I was unique.

quote:


Patriarchy and how it makes some men who don't win out of it feel bad, and how they don't like being lumped in with the men who are committing violence because they are often abused by the same men? How the whole system pits genders against each other and that it's a bad thing?

Well, I'm a man. I don't think I'm sexist, and I don't like being lumped in with men who commit violence.

This is because I disapprove of sexist behaviour, and don't think I exhibit it. It has nothing to do with being victimized by patriarchal alpha-male sportsmen or anything. I would also dislike being lumped in with people who cheat at cards, and this has nothing to do with my having been oppressed by card-sharps.

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Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

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orfeo - just for your interest, thread calling four posters to Hell

seekingsister - having got into these discussions last year, calling people sexist on the Ship is does not go well. I tried asking why it was such a hot button issue here but didn't get a clear answer as the discussion wandered off into other pathways. As will be obvious from the linked thread, I got into this discussion trying to be too clever calling someone to Hell, my fault, and it completely derailed the Hell thread.

You will learn, if you want to stay around on the Ship, that you need to be very clear in your use of language. Throwing around accusations of isms will be challenged as they are loaded with assumptions. And the people challenging will have other assumptions to you, partly because this is an international board, and those isms come loaded with cultural baggage.

(The discussion about The Silent Acolyte's gender confused me because I was always under the impression that he was male. And I was really beginning to doubt myself.)

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orfeo

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# 13878

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I can't believe I'm going to waste more effort on this after having the most Purgatorial post I made in the whole thread thrown back in my face, but what the heck.

Plique-a-jour, try reading Aesop's fable about the North Wind and the sun sometime. You might find it instructive.

The gap between what you seem to think "soft-pedalling" means and the full-on hyperbolic assault you prefer is far and wide. I'm not against challenging people, but you've got to give them a challenge they can actually conceive meeting.

[ 31. August 2013, 08:01: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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QLib

Bad Example
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I'm a man. I don't think I'm sexist, and I don't like being lumped in with men who commit violence.

This is because I disapprove of sexist behaviour, and don't think I exhibit it. It has nothing to do with being victimized by patriarchal alpha-male sportsmen or anything. I would also dislike being lumped in with people who cheat at cards, and this has nothing to do with my having been oppressed by card-sharps.

The thing is that sexism and racism are embedded in our cultures. I'm a woman. I, too, disapprove of sexist and racist behaviours, but I occasionally catch myself out when I'm making judgements - thoughts and feelings pop up and sometimes I have to think, 'Where the fuck did that come from?'

This embedded stuff is dangerous, and people being in denial that it's there makes it more dangerous. My biggest worry about my daughters' generation is that most of them seem to think the battle's won. Well, maybe the battle is, but the war sure as hell ain't - no, not even in the liberal West. With racism, I think the position is clearer - sadly, it's all too clear that racism is still with us.

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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

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Evensong
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My tack is to go for reverse sexism.

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Justinian
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The problem with this stupid tangent isn't the original statement, it is (as is almost always the case) the doubling down.

"Men are sexist." Who amongst us has never made a hyperbolic statement in their lives? Let he who is without sin throw the first stone.

On the other hand when you have made a statement that is hyperbolic to the point of being untrue and are called on it, if you have decency you apologise for it. If you want to start a genuinely interesting conversation, you can turn it into the equivalent of everyone's a little bit racist. But that's not what happened at all. Instead, rather than either trying to have the more radical conversation or accepting that her hyperbole went beyond the bounds of truth it should have been scaled back to something that was actually correct. As normal the big problem wasn't the initial offence (language is imprecise), it was the doubling down.

Objecting to hyperbole isn't tone policing. It's content policing. It's objecting to what is ultimately, when push comes to shove, a lie. Which leads to the conclusion that Seekingsister does not care whether she is right or wrong as long as her agenda gets pushed. Which makes it utterly pointless having a logical conversation with her - if she doesn't care whether what she is saying is right or wrong, I can't be bothered to try to filter it and I don't expect her position to ever change based on something like facts. And I don't expect her to ever listen to opposing points of view if facts don't matter to her. Which makes conversation pretty pointless.

And mark me down as someone else who thinks a whole lot less of TSA since finding out he is male.

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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.

Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.

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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
Who amongst us has never made a hyperbolic statement in their lives? Let he who is without sin throw the first stone.

Dude. Aren't you an atheist?

I'm not sure you're allowed to use that phraseology.

quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:


And mark me down as someone else who thinks a whole lot less of TSA since finding out he is male.

I don't think less of him. I just thought he was rather pretty. Such a shame.

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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504

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quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
I did use some in my posts in male feminism. You haven't read them. So that's why I've said you haven't read them.

Cool. Getting it right 5 times doesn't make it okay the 1 time you get it wrong. I was talking about the two specific instances that you've been challenged on where your language was sweeping and unhelpful.

I get your point that people can say such things as a result of hurt. It does help me understand. But it doesn't make those statements right; it just confirms that getting hurt can screw one's attitudes up and make them say unhelpful things.

It's nothing personal. I'd hope I'd challenge anyone on similar statements, especially the examples you gave about Americans, or whoever else. It sounds like your experience elsewhere is pretty crappy, and I can see why you'd project that onto the Ship. The thing is, the standard's pretty high here. There are a lot of very intelligent people (much more intelligent than me), and you'll find that if you argue or phrase something lazily or unhelpfully, you'll get picked up on it. Better when that happens to hold your hands up than dig your heels in.

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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch

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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504

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quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
I did use some in my posts in male feminism. You haven't read them. So that's why I've said you haven't read them.

Cool. Getting it right 5 times doesn't make it okay the 1 time you get it wrong. I was talking about the two specific instances that you've been challenged on where your language was sweeping and unhelpful.

I get your point that people can say such things as a result of hurt. It does help me understand. But it doesn't make those statements right; it just confirms that getting hurt can screw one's attitudes up and make them say unhelpful things.

It's nothing personal. I'd hope I'd challenge anyone on similar statements, especially the examples you gave about Americans, or whoever else. It sounds like your experience elsewhere is pretty crappy, and I can see why you'd project that onto the Ship. The thing is, the standard's pretty high here. There are a lot of very intelligent people (much more intelligent than me), and you'll find that if you argue or phrase something lazily or unhelpfully, you'll get picked up on it. Better when that happens to hold your hands up than dig your heels in.

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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch

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Mili

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# 3254

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Picking up on lazy language is one thing. I think the reaction has been a bit stronger than that. Seeking Sister has explained what she meant and numerous times has said that she doesn't hate men or think men are all sexist. However some people are refusing to let the issue go until she grovels and offers a full apology for using language once or twice that offended them. Some people even seem to want to drive her right off the website.

And she's a newbie too. We've had some interesting newbies lately who were given a lot more slack for far less logical arguments. People debated with them, but there wasn't the sense of anger shown here, even when someone claimed racism was normal because her cats were racist.

I hope you stay Seeking Sister. With the wide variety of views and worldviews on here there are nasty clashes at times. I'm pretty sure if you post on a variety of topics, that most posters will come to appreciate your intelligent input, even when they disagree with you.

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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504

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quote:
Originally posted by Mili:
Picking up on lazy language is one thing. I think the reaction has been a bit stronger than that.

I think that goes both ways. Seekingsister went pretty strongly on the offensive against those who had challenged what she said.

quote:
Originally posted by Mili:
I hope you stay Seeking Sister. With the wide variety of views and worldviews on here there are nasty clashes at times. I'm pretty sure if you post on a variety of topics, that most posters will come to appreciate your intelligent input, even when they disagree with you.

I echo that sentiment.

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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch

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Mili

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# 3254

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Somewhat perhaps, but she never called anyone a Nazi or the 'real racist here'. It was only EE who used language that strong, though. I think EE perhaps is just being hyperbolic too, rather than really believing everything he says (at least I hope so). And to be fair to the ship EE has been confronted about his posting style numerous times.
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Justinian
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# 5357

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Dude. Aren't you an atheist?

I'm not sure you're allowed to use that phraseology.

ITTWACW?

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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.

Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Mili:
I think EE perhaps is just being hyperbolic too, rather than really believing everything he says

[Killing me] [Killing me] [Killing me]
Oh, wait, you were not serious, were you?
So, he is either a WUM arsewipe or has the mental ability of a brain-damaged pigeon with Alzheimer? I would not consider either to be much of a compliment.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
But they are just irritated by the suggestion that members of "their group" (however defined) are responsible for much of the inequality in our society.

I'll thank you not to tell me how I feel. You have no idea how I feel, and it is rude beyond reckoning to presume to know, and to tell me that I feel a certain way if I have denied it.

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Well why didn't you say so?

The question is, why were you so cocksure so as to contradict someone, when you had absolutely nothing to go on except an avatar?

quote:
Originally posted by Plique-à-jour:
You're trying to force her into a defensive position for saying something essentially accurate about language. Hyperbole is part of speech.

.

If she had said, "She was speaking hyperbolically out of the pain she was feeling" we wouldn't be having the discussion at all, because orfeo and Marvin and I would have said, "Oh, yeah, that's true" and that would have been the end of it.

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
There are people in this thread defending me as well.

This is very interesting because the person defending you, Plique-à-jour, showed up at roughly the same time you did. The dynamic of a newb making an ass of him/herself and then another newb who showed up at the same time making an ass of him/herself defending the first newb is so common here it's something of a running gag.

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I've got no idea why you think a man who says something I completely disagree with would be my male ally.

Have we found ANOTHER word that is going to be used to mean something the complete opposite of its typical meaning?

Well you have to admit, "all" and "ally" do look a lot alike.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Mili

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# 3254

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Mili:
I think EE perhaps is just being hyperbolic too, rather than really believing everything he says

[Killing me] [Killing me] [Killing me]
Oh, wait, you were not serious, were you?
So, he is either a WUM arsewipe or has the mental ability of a brain-damaged pigeon with Alzheimer? I would not consider either to be much of a compliment.

I'm serious when I say I hope he's just a sad twisted man trying to rile people up by saying ridiculous things on the internet. Otherwise I have to accept that he actually believes everything he says, including things like anyone who supports affirmative action is as bad as the Nazis. So not a compliment, no. [Disappointed]
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Evensong
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# 14696

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I was just about to respond with a stinging retort to Justinian and mousie - to let them know how stupid they were being.

Then I realised that might make them feel small and that's no good because I'm doing CPE and that would reflect badly on me because that means I feel small and that this must be because of some serious injury received as a child and that making Justinian and mousie feel small would just be some form of projection or transference (*) or revenge on my big bad parents making me feel small so I couldn't possibly post the post I envisaged and I sit here realising that everything everyone does in terms of personal relationships is subjective so really it's all a bit fucked and there is no such thing as objectivity so then I realise postmodernism really is true after all and that makes me feel better but then I think my supervisor would probably say that's just denial and then I think I'm really just pissed of with people that think they know and understand the human mind and emotions and then I feel better but then I think shit this is really rambly and then I think of St Paul** and then I think damn I sound like I'm going nuts and then I think Oh well - cest la vie.

(*insert relevant psychobabble here)
(** Galatians 6.11 See what large letters I make when I am writing in my own hand! )

[ 01. September 2013, 14:13: Message edited by: Evensong ]

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Soror Magna
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# 9881

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It would be great if racism and sexism drew the same level of criticism and invective that hyperbolic accusations of racism and sexism do. But no, seekingsister upset the menfolk, so she must be punished and made to see the error of her ways.
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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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ROTFLMAO! [Killing me]

But, I am not certain I agree. The two bonehea-, erm, I mean gentlemen, arguing the most vociferously seem to be doing so pedantically as much as for any other reason. And they all are worrying a tangent whilst ignoring the meat of the argument.
Hence my puppy comment earlier.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Dinghy Sailor

Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507

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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
It would be great if racism and sexism drew the same level of criticism and invective that hyperbolic accusations of racism and sexism do. But no, seekingsister upset the menfolk, so she must be punished and made to see the error of her ways.

Of course, it would be far better if idiots in the feminist camp were allowed to talk as much offensive bollocks as they liked without being called on it. Obviously.

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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by Mili:
Picking up on lazy language is one thing. I think the reaction has been a bit stronger than that. Seeking Sister has explained what she meant and numerous times has said that she doesn't hate men or think men are all sexist. However some people are refusing to let the issue go until she grovels and offers a full apology for using language once or twice that offended them. Some people even seem to want to drive her right off the website.

And she's a newbie too. We've had some interesting newbies lately who were given a lot more slack for far less logical arguments. People debated with them, but there wasn't the sense of anger shown here, even when someone claimed racism was normal because her cats were racist.

I hope you stay Seeking Sister. With the wide variety of views and worldviews on here there are nasty clashes at times. I'm pretty sure if you post on a variety of topics, that most posters will come to appreciate your intelligent input, even when they disagree with you.

I am leaning toward agreement.

I don't think anybody is trying to drive anyone off the boards, though, I just think there is a patriarchally entrenched worldview that many of us have that insists that he/ she who has the last word has achieved King of the Mountain. And if somebody throws up their hands and gives up on your ass, you can dance around under the Disco Ball of Hell and shriek "I won! I won! I got the last goddamn word!"

Horsehockeys. Best thing I ever learned from one of my teaching mentors was, "Let 'em have the last word--words are cheap."

So my advice to Seekingsister would be, "Back off this thread, let the snarlers snarl, go back to the Femmie-nazi thread and discuss in a more moderate fashion, and let us see what you can contribute."

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:


Horsehockeys.


Hear! Hear!

Any argument or proposal that can be backed by a quote from Col. Sherman T Potter (of the 4077th MASH) is valid.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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You just pulled about 756 cool points for catching that reference. [Overused]

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
Of course, it would be far better if idiots in the feminist camp were allowed to talk as much offensive bollocks as they liked without being called on it. Obviously.

[Overused]

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
It would be great if racism and sexism drew the same level of criticism and invective that hyperbolic accusations of racism and sexism do. But no, seekingsister upset the menfolk, so she must be punished and made to see the error of her ways.

Nope, she got upset and came down here to Hell and painted a target on herself. Which is a perfectly legitimate thing to do, and more power to her.

quote:
Originally posted by Plique-à-jour:
Men become allies by becoming ready to hear what women have to say.

So why do you have so much to say on the subject?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Plique-à-jour:
Men become allies by becoming ready to hear what women have to say.

So why do you have so much to say on the subject?
Seems like an irregular verb:

I should be listened to on this subject
You should shut up and listen to women (and me)
He isn't even worth talking to.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Eliab
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# 9153

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quote:
Originally posted by Mili:
Picking up on lazy language is one thing. I think the reaction has been a bit stronger than that. Seeking Sister has explained what she meant and numerous times has said that she doesn't hate men or think men are all sexist.

She's "explained" by suggesting phrases like "Europeans persecute Jews" and "Americans are all stupid" as examples of allegations which she thinks are obviously unobjectionable in civil discussion, in order to argue by analogy that "men are sexist" is OK as well.

That is, if her opinions are not either ludicrous or bigoted (and it is just possible that they aren't) she has explained them very badly indeed, because I imagine that most Americans object to being called stupid, and most Europeans don't like to be thought of as anti-Semitic. And then she has chosen to start a personal argument with people who think there's something to be said against making sweeping generalisations of an offensive nature about 'people like you'.

It is pretty obvious that if there is any serious point behind the generalisations, it could put in a way that is both clearer and less offensive ("there are still places in Europe where anti-Semitism is common", "the American media reports a lot of stupid comments with apparent approval", "there are many men who have sexist attitudes to women"... would be my guesses at the serious points behind the generalisations, but the reason they have to be 'guesses' is that the "all [X]s are [Y]" format is such a poor way to communicate with [X]s who don't think that they are [Y]). So why she's angry at people who apparently lack the telepathic ability to discern the insightful, true, inoffensive intention from the lazy, false and offensive form of expression is a bit of a mystery to me.

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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"

Richard Dawkins

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
I'm American. Now and then BBC News or the Guardian will put up an article about America. Inevitably there is a wave of British posters who don't like any comparison between the US and UK that favors the former. "All Americans are fat" or "Everyone in the US has a gun" or "Americans are all stupid" will be said. I also know that America is globally dominant particularly in media and culture, and that their response is probably not an indication of hatred of Americans but rather something else - say being tired of having US movies/TV/etc all over the place. Do I go into that thread and say that they are anti-American bigots? No, because that looks ridiculous to most people due to America's status. No one thinks anti-American bigotry is an issue.

Actually, on Ship of Fools anti-American bigotry has been an issue. You gotta stop talking like the internet is all one big homogenous thing.
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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
I'm American. Now and then BBC News or the Guardian will put up an article about America. Inevitably there is a wave of British posters who don't like any comparison between the US and UK that favors the former. "All Americans are fat" or "Everyone in the US has a gun" or "Americans are all stupid" will be said. I also know that America is globally dominant particularly in media and culture, and that their response is probably not an indication of hatred of Americans but rather something else - say being tired of having US movies/TV/etc all over the place. Do I go into that thread and say that they are anti-American bigots? No, because that looks ridiculous to most people due to America's status. No one thinks anti-American bigotry is an issue.

Actually, on Ship of Fools anti-American bigotry has been an issue. You gotta stop talking like the internet is all one big homogenous thing.
What RuthW said, but from the other side of The Pond.

Before I joined there was a "Pond War" on the Ship of Fools that all but sank it. Some left, never to return and the Hosts and Admins plus many more besides are keen to avoid a repeat.

That doesn't rule out digs at each other's government, Hollywood, the BBC and aspects of each others culture that look, well, foreign, but we try to avoid attacking "Americans" and "The British".

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
# 619

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And with considerable regularity we have threads in Heaven on how quaint/weird/adorable/incomprehensible are the things They say/eat/celebrate/vote for etc.
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Mili

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# 3254

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quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
quote:
Originally posted by Mili:
Picking up on lazy language is one thing. I think the reaction has been a bit stronger than that. Seeking Sister has explained what she meant and numerous times has said that she doesn't hate men or think men are all sexist.

She's "explained" by suggesting phrases like "Europeans persecute Jews" and "Americans are all stupid" as examples of allegations which she thinks are obviously unobjectionable in civil discussion, in order to argue by analogy that "men are sexist" is OK as well.

That is, if her opinions are not either ludicrous or bigoted (and it is just possible that they aren't) she has explained them very badly indeed, because I imagine that most Americans object to being called stupid, and most Europeans don't like to be thought of as anti-Semitic. And then she has chosen to start a personal argument with people who think there's something to be said against making sweeping generalisations of an offensive nature about 'people like you'.

It is pretty obvious that if there is any serious point behind the generalisations, it could put in a way that is both clearer and less offensive ("there are still places in Europe where anti-Semitism is common", "the American media reports a lot of stupid comments with apparent approval", "there are many men who have sexist attitudes to women"... would be my guesses at the serious points behind the generalisations, but the reason they have to be 'guesses' is that the "all [X]s are [Y]" format is such a poor way to communicate with [X]s who don't think that they are [Y]). So why she's angry at people who apparently lack the telepathic ability to discern the insightful, true, inoffensive intention from the lazy, false and offensive form of expression is a bit of a mystery to me.

I don't use generalisations myself (unless I slip up accidentally) and agree they usually just cause people to be upset. I don't have a problem with people arguing with Seeking Sister about her use of language, I just think the anger is a bit extreme for the circumstances. However as others have said these things can be cultural and people have different buttons that when pushed can make them hit the roof.
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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Mili:
I just think the anger is a bit extreme for the circumstances.

It wasn't to start with, but she blindly refuses to see the point we're making. That's the sort of thing that pisses people off. And let's not forget who it was that brought the issue to Hell. That escalation was all her.

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Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged



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