homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Ship's Locker   » Limbo   » Purgatory: A Church? (Page 2)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  5  ...  10  11  12 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: A Church?
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644

 - Posted      Profile for Beeswax Altar   Email Beeswax Altar   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
originally posted by Gramps49:
To those who say since SA does not practice the sacrament of baptism, it is not Christian, do you also say the Friends are not Christian?

Yes. Why wouldn't we?

The question of who is a Christian and what constitutes a church are related. Anybody claiming to be a Christian can find some definition of Christian that supports their claim even if it means defining a Christian as anybody who self identifies as a Christian. The same goes for a church. The Church of Satan can be classified as a church. Ultimately, the answer to Mudfrog's question is whatever Mudfrog wants the answer to be.

--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Ultimately, the answer to Mudfrog's question is whatever Mudfrog wants the answer to be.

Which brings us back to Zach's question: why this thread?

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208

 - Posted      Profile for Zach82     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Zach82: I don't see why that should follow at all. Indeed, the most important question of all is "Am I a Christian?"

This obliges us to discern God's will as best we can and pray for the grace to obey when we have discerned it.

I agree that "Am I a Christian?" is an important question. Personally I'm not sure if we'll ever be able to fully answer it, because in the end that's also up to Him, but it is an important question to ponder in our relationship with God.

What I don't see very well however, is why you're so eager to answer a different question, "Is the other person a Christian?"

In this particular instance, you are making out to be terribly mysterious and dreadful what is actually quite straight forward in the Bible.

A little water, a few words, that's it. Yet this is, for reasons I can hardly fathom, seen as a ridiculous expectation. "If the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he saith to thee, Wash, and be clean?"

Instead of making us labor to make ourselves Christians through good works, Jesus merely says "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest!" And what a protest is raised on this thread and everywhere at this offer. Aren't my good works enough for God? "No, they aren't, but all the same, come!"

It ought to be a matter of great consolation. It doesn't depend on my wavering belief or pitiful efforts. God, by means of baptism, has made me a Christian forever, and nothing I, a mere mortal, could ever do can remove God's decree.

--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116

 - Posted      Profile for Mudfrog   Email Mudfrog   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The reason for the thread and the question is an honest one: What do Shipmates, as members of other denominations, think of The Salvation Army's status as a church?

On a Salvation Army officers' discussion boatds elsewhere there is an ongoing discussion about membership. We have 2 types - soldier and adherent. A soldier is someone who signs The Articles of War - a soldier's covenant
An adherent is someone who quite simply professes Christ, wants to see the Salvation Army as his place of worship, fellowship and service but who doesn't feel the need to sign the covenant promises that are signed by soldiers.

This adherency membership is really only 20 years old and in some places is leading to difficulties because there might be more people wanting to be adherents and fewer becoming soldiers. This has caused some to wonder at the distinction and ask whether the two should be combined. The issue is that much of our ministry is performed only by soldiers under their covenant and in certain situations adherents are being called upon to participate because of necessity.

Because, historically, TSA has been a ministry and mission comprised of uniformed, covenanted soldiers - and could quite rightly be described as an Order within the Church - it has been seen as unique, distinct and having a certain quality that marks it out (and maybe restricts its size). The question has been whether using 'members' rather than 'soldiers' has weakened its unique identity in favour of a more 'church-style' image and practice.

In my own congregation there are those who do not like the fact that we have 'Salvation Army Church' on our publicity.

The other reason for the question is, as I said, that other Christians have said 'you are not a church.' And though we claim to be a church, and even though we hesitate slightly at the word 'ordination' - and would speak of the priesthood of all believers (even though we have trained, commissioned officers who act like clergy) - and do all the things associated with church life; some would shut us out.

On the specific issue of sacraments we do not disbelieve them, deny their efficacy, prevent our soldiers from receiving communion or being baptised in other churches. We believe and experience the same grace from God that they speak of and as far as our becoming soldiers, this is done publicly and has much of the meaning of an adult baptism - confession of faith, testimony to the grace of God and the working of the Holy Spirit, membership of the Body of Christ and an intention to live for Christ rather than self.

When people say 'Oh, but you don't feature the sacraments in your worship' my answer is, 'But we belong to a Church that does.'

Finally, we are now in a position where it would be impossible to have the sacraments in our worship.
We number 1.5 million people worldwide in 127 countries.
Can you imagine getting agreement from every Salvation Army territory, every officer, every soldier, on just what version of the Eucharist to have?

If The Salvation Army in its essential form is a mission raised up to "Save souls, grow saints and serve suffering humanity" (that's our mission statement) then "Sacrament Wars" would be a sever and destruction distraction. It's better that we join you all ecumenically and share in the eucharist in those church that are gracious enough to allow us - bearing in mind that the basic reason for us stopping the practice of communion was churches actively preventing some of us from coming to the Lord's table!

--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130

 - Posted      Profile for South Coast Kevin   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Finally, we are now in a position where it would be impossible to have the sacraments in our worship.
We number 1.5 million people worldwide in 127 countries.
Can you imagine getting agreement from every Salvation Army territory, every officer, every soldier, on just what version of the Eucharist to have?

ISTM your second point here doesn't necessarily follow from the first. Surely the Salvation Army authorities / hierarchy could simply approve the celebration of communion (and baptism, and whatever other sacraments you wish) in their meetings without specifying the exact form? Or provide some sample forms of words that local groups can follow or adapt as they wish.
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
It's better that we join you all ecumenically and share in the eucharist in those church that are gracious enough to allow us...

Would you say most Salvation Army officers / adherents actually do this? If the S.A. is considered to be a church by most of its officers / adherents, would they also attend another church's services on a regular basis? Just speaking for myself of course, but that would seem odd to me....

--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.

Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011  |  IP: Logged
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116

 - Posted      Profile for Mudfrog   Email Mudfrog   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The unity of The salvation Army would be in serious doubt if we just said 'do it whatever it looks like'. I think the testimony of the church over the last 500 years would be a warning to us on that one!

A lot of officers and soldiers do indeed receive the sacrament in ecumenical settings. It's probably less likely that they would visit a local church on a regular basis to go to Mass/Communion.

At the moment our Corps is the guest of a Methodist church because we don't have our own building. In the monthly communion service it is not uncommon - in fact it's a regular feature - to see Salvation Army bandsmen kneeling at the communion rail side by side with Methodists. Other Salvationists will merely sit in their seats and pray quietly.

We're all gusts at the table, we're all seeking the same Saviour.

--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The unity of The salvation Army would be in serious doubt if we just said 'do it whatever it looks like'. I think the testimony of the church over the last 500 years would be a warning to us on that one!


I don't know about that. We have no standard Baptist rubric for Communion (although many churches do it in much the same way); it would not be hard for the SA to produce a service book with a number of "model guidelines" to guide folk.
quote:
We're all gusts at the table, we're all seeking the same Saviour.

And, clearly, the wind of the Spirit! [Cool]

[ 27. September 2013, 07:45: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130

 - Posted      Profile for South Coast Kevin   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The unity of The salvation Army would be in serious doubt if we just said 'do it whatever it looks like'. I think the testimony of the church over the last 500 years would be a warning to us on that one!

That depends on what you mean by 'unity', IMO. Obviously, if you leave local congregations / groups with plenty of freedom to do things as they wish, things may well develop such that the customs and practices look very different from one group to another.

Personally, I don't think that's a problem at all though. Indeed, I reckon it's more of a strength; you can do things in a way that reflects the culture of that group of people and uses their particular talents / skills. For me, the unity we should see amongst Christians is one of purpose, not of form.

--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.

Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011  |  IP: Logged
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

 - Posted      Profile for LeRoc     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Zach82: A little water, a few words, that's it. Yet this is, for reasons I can hardly fathom, seen as a ridiculous expectation.
I don't see it as a ridiculous expectation. But I don't see it as our place to judge people who didn't do this either.

--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870

 - Posted      Profile for Sipech   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
There is something that worries me about where (and why) we try to define who is and who isn't a christian.

There are a multitude of different churches with different emphases, different organisational structures, etc. So most people can find a church to be a part of. So is the question really then, "Who else will we be in fellowship with?"

One might question whether the salvation army are christian, but then why not question other groups? What about Unitarians, Catholics, JWs, Mormons, etc?

In trying to define the boundaries of the faith, which can be fractal like or nebulous, we might be missing the heart of the gospel.

--------------------
I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile

Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged
Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211

 - Posted      Profile for Laurelin   Email Laurelin   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
God, by means of baptism, has made me a Christian forever, and nothing I, a mere mortal, could ever do can remove God's decree.

I became a Christian forever, by the grace of God, at the age of 14 two years before I was baptised by full immersion at the age of 16. (I was not baptised as a baby.)

I think that baptism is extremely important, being a command of Jesus and all. I confess I don't really understand why the SA doesn't practice either baptism or Holy Communion, even given the 'all of life is sacramental' POV. I think it would be great if they DID begin to follow the sacraments. However, I have always regarded them as orthodox Christians and therefore part of mainline, confessional Christianity. This is the first time I've heard the opinion that they aren't 'proper' Christians.

--------------------
"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien

Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012  |  IP: Logged
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

 - Posted      Profile for LeRoc     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Zach82: Instead of making us labor to make ourselves Christians through good works, Jesus merely says "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest!"
I'm becoming more and more convinced that being a Christian isn't about me-me-me. When I do good works (just an example, I'm not pounding my chest here saying that I'm doing enough of them) then this isn't a 'labor' that I perform in order to make myself a Christian. It isn't about myself.

And there is no way I should feel relieved that I don't have to do the labor of feeding the hungry and quenching the thirsty anymore and that I can rest now because I've been baptised.

--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211

 - Posted      Profile for Laurelin   Email Laurelin   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
There is something that worries me about where (and why) we try to define who is and who isn't a christian.

Well, somebody who doesn't believe that Christ was the Son of God is not a Christian. (Yet.) I don't see why stating that should be offensive in any way. And the Church no longer persecutes people with non-Christian beliefs ... thank God. [Help]

quote:
What about Unitarians, Catholics, JWs, Mormons, etc?
From an evangelical POV - my constituency, so I know 'em well - Protestants have no problem in fellowshipping with the SA.

They would have a problem with Unitarians because of the universalism. The JWs and Mormons are also regarded as heretical because neither accept the full divinity of Christ.

But Catholics? [Cool] Sure, no problem. [Big Grin] They're Trinitarian, right? [Biased] Being serious now: I'm an open evangelical who is grateful for the Reformation but who does realise that the Church wasn't actually BORN at the Reformation. [Razz]

quote:
In trying to define the boundaries of the faith, which can be fractal like or nebulous, we might be missing the heart of the gospel. [/QB]
I think there is a big difference between a) being welcoming and respectful to people who don't share our faith and b) actually defining what orthodox, confessional Christianity actually is. Defining belief does NOT mean you get to act like an arse towards those who don't share your beliefs.

I would happily work alongside people of other faiths and none on, say, important social issues.

--------------------
"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien

Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012  |  IP: Logged
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

 - Posted      Profile for LeRoc     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Laurelin: They would have a problem with Unitarians because of the universalism.
I'm out too then.

--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211

 - Posted      Profile for Laurelin   Email Laurelin   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Laurelin: They would have a problem with Unitarians because of the universalism.
I'm out too then.
Let me rephrase that then, because I'm quasi-universalist myself. I believe that Christ is the only way to the Father but there are many, many ways to Christ. [Cool] But I do believe He is the only way.

He's just a lot more generous than many of His followers are ...

His divinity, though, is an issue, and I don't think the Unitarians believe that?

--------------------
"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien

Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012  |  IP: Logged
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

 - Posted      Profile for LeRoc     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Laurelin: Let me rephrase that then, because I'm quasi-universalist myself. I believe that Christ is the only way to the Father but there are many, many ways to Christ. [Cool] But I do believe He is the only way.

He's just a lot more generous than many of His followers are ...

His divinity, though, is an issue, and I don't think the Unitarians believe that?

To be honest, I don't meet a lot of Unitarians, so I don't have much knowledge of what they believe. I don't have many issues with the first part of your post though.

--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870

 - Posted      Profile for Sipech   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
His divinity, though, is an issue, and I don't think the Unitarians believe that?

That's why I rather mischievously added Mormons into the mix. I got stopped in the street by a pair a few weeks ago, and they were very clear that the divinity of Jesus was crucial.

For my part, though, I would say the divinity of Jesus is a conclusion, not a starting point.

--------------------
I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile

Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged
Matt Black

Shipmate
# 2210

 - Posted      Profile for Matt Black   Email Matt Black   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Ultimately, the answer to Mudfrog's question is whatever Mudfrog wants the answer to be.

Which brings us back to Zach's question: why this thread?
Well, it's a version of "Who do you say that I am?"

--------------------
"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644

 - Posted      Profile for Beeswax Altar   Email Beeswax Altar   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
originally posted by The Alethiophile:
One might question whether the salvation army are christian, but then why not question other groups? What about Unitarians, Catholics, JWs, Mormons, etc?

Yes, one may. In order you listed them:

No
Yes
No
No

Any others?

--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870

 - Posted      Profile for Sipech   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
In order you listed them:

No
Yes
No
No

Any others?

Reasons why & why not?

--------------------
I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile

Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644

 - Posted      Profile for Beeswax Altar   Email Beeswax Altar   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
originally posted by Laurelin:
They would have a problem with Unitarians because of the universalism. The JWs and Mormons are also regarded as heretical because neither accept the full divinity of Christ.

No, we would have a problem with Unitarians because they are Unitarian not because they are Universalist.

--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644

 - Posted      Profile for Beeswax Altar   Email Beeswax Altar   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
In order you listed them:

No
Yes
No
No

Any others?

Reasons why & why not?
Unitarians are not Trinitarian and deny the divinity of Christ. Roman Catholics adhere to the Nicene Creed just like the Orthodox and most Protestants even ones who disavow creeds but believe everything in the Nicene Creed. Among other things, JW's deny the divinity of Christ. Mormons have an understanding of God completely at odds with the Nicene Creed. Sure, the Mormons you met claimed to believe in the divinity of Christ. However, their understanding of divinity is more polytheistic than Trinitarian.

--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208

 - Posted      Profile for Zach82     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Zach82: Instead of making us labor to make ourselves Christians through good works, Jesus merely says "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest!"
I'm becoming more and more convinced that being a Christian isn't about me-me-me. When I do good works (just an example, I'm not pounding my chest here saying that I'm doing enough of them) then this isn't a 'labor' that I perform in order to make myself a Christian. It isn't about myself.

And there is no way I should feel relieved that I don't have to do the labor of feeding the hungry and quenching the thirsty anymore and that I can rest now because I've been baptised.

I said being a Christian doesn't depend on me. I didn't say anything about whether I have to carry out good works or not. DO try to keep on topic.

--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208

 - Posted      Profile for Zach82     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
In order you listed them:

No
Yes
No
No

Any others?

Reasons why & why not?
Unitarians are not Trinitarian and deny the divinity of Christ. Roman Catholics adhere to the Nicene Creed just like the Orthodox and most Protestants even ones who disavow creeds but believe everything in the Nicene Creed. Among other things, JW's deny the divinity of Christ. Mormons have an understanding of God completely at odds with the Nicene Creed. Sure, the Mormons you met claimed to believe in the divinity of Christ. However, their understanding of divinity is more polytheistic than Trinitarian.
According to Laurelin, not calling people Christians is "being an arse to them." Clearly the only solution to your arrogance is to make the word "Christian" completely meaningless. It is the only way to avoid excluding anyone.

[ 27. September 2013, 13:22: Message edited by: Zach82 ]

--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

 - Posted      Profile for LeRoc     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Zach82: I didn't say anything about whether I have to carry out good works or not.
You said literally that doing good works is a labour that you don't have to carry out, but instead you can rest.

--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211

 - Posted      Profile for Laurelin   Email Laurelin   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
According to Laurelin, not calling people Christians is "being an arse to them."

[Ultra confused]

I said NOTHING of the sort. [Mad]

Kindly read what I actually said up-thread, instead of wilfully misrepresenting what I said.

Thank you.

--------------------
"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien

Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208

 - Posted      Profile for Zach82     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Zach82: I didn't say anything about whether I have to carry out good works or not.
You said literally that doing good works is a labour that you don't have to carry out, but instead you can rest.
What I said was "I don't have to carry out good works to be a Christian." Which is not an insignificant difference.

quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:


[Ultra confused]

I said NOTHING of the sort. [Mad]

Kindly read what I actually said up-thread, instead of wilfully misrepresenting what I said.

Thank you.

You said "Defining belief does NOT mean you get to act like an arse towards those who don't share your beliefs." I merely assumed that this had something to do with this thread and wasn't an irrelevant hypothetical.

[ 27. September 2013, 13:40: Message edited by: Zach82 ]

--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211

 - Posted      Profile for Laurelin   Email Laurelin   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
You said "Defining belief does NOT mean you get to act like an arse towards those who don't share your beliefs." I merely assumed that this had something to do with this thread and wasn't an irrelevant hypothetical.

What? [Confused]

It's obvious what I meant! [Smile] A professing Christian, i.e. someone who claims to follow and obey Jesus Christ, is called by that same Jesus to treat others with love and respect.

Sheesh. [Razz]

--------------------
"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien

Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012  |  IP: Logged
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

 - Posted      Profile for LeRoc     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Zach82: What I said was "I don't have to carry out good works to be a Christian." Which is not an insignificant difference.
Well, it seems to me that Jesus even said things of the sort of: "If you don't feed the hungry and quench the thirsty, I won't know you."

--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208

 - Posted      Profile for Zach82     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
You said "Defining belief does NOT mean you get to act like an arse towards those who don't share your beliefs." I merely assumed that this had something to do with this thread and wasn't an irrelevant hypothetical.

What? [Confused]

It's obvious what I meant! [Smile] A professing Christian, i.e. someone who claims to follow and obey Jesus Christ, is called by that same Jesus to treat others with love and respect.

Sheesh. [Razz]

Obviously. But this is a thread where it is seen as unbearable arrogance to not classify others as Christians because they fail to meet the biblical criteria for the word.

So, does "love and respect" include "always call a person a Christian if he wants to be called one?" I don't think it does, but that seems to be the consensus on this thread.

--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

 - Posted      Profile for LeRoc     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Zach82: So, does "love and respect" include "always call a person a Christian if he wants to be called one?"
No, but to me it does include "I'll leave the question of whether you are a Chrstian or not up to the One who gets to decide about this."

--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208

 - Posted      Profile for Zach82     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Zach82: What I said was "I don't have to carry out good works to be a Christian." Which is not an insignificant difference.
Well, it seems to me that Jesus even said things of the sort of: "If you don't feed the hungry and quench the thirsty, I won't know you."
Since you insist on getting off topic, probably because you keep your terms vague, being faithful to the grace Jesus has given be in baptism demands a life time of striving. But failing to be faithful to that calling doesn't mean God hasn't given me that grace.

There are millions of Christians who have failed to carry out Christ's mission, and millions of people who have done good works without being Christians. The difference, according to the Biblical definition of the word, is the grace of baptism.

--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208

 - Posted      Profile for Zach82     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Zach82: So, does "love and respect" include "always call a person a Christian if he wants to be called one?"
No, but to me it does include "I'll leave the question of whether you are a Chrstian or not up to the One who gets to decide about this."
Actually, in looking to the biblical definition of the word Christian, that is exactly what I am doing. In refusing to look at the biblical judgement in these matters, that is exactly what you are failing to do.

--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211

 - Posted      Profile for Laurelin   Email Laurelin   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
But this is a thread where it is seen as unbearable arrogance to not classify others as Christians because they fail to meet the biblical criteria for the word.

So, does "love and respect" include "always call a person a Christian if he wants to be called one?" I don't think it does, but that seems to be the consensus on this thread.

I've already explained why I believe the SA are Christians, despite their not practising the sacraments, and why they are part of mainline Christianity in a way that the JWs and Mormons are certainly not. There are many ways of defining a Christ-follower, and that would include confessing Christ as Lord and Saviour (as the SA do). To reiterate: I am very surprised - and not a little dismayed - to hear that the SA are not seen as Christians.

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
The difference, according to the Biblical definition of the word, is the grace of baptism.

The difference is being 'born again', as Jesus Himself said. He puts His new life in us, by His Holy Spirit.

You and I would agree on baptism being a sign of obedience. But as an evangelical, I disagree that infant baptism automatically conveys grace. There are countless people in the UK who were baptised as infants but have grown up to have no interest in Christianity whatsoever. Infant baptism does not guarantee a mature faith later on (neither does believers' baptism).

As I said up-thread, I came to Christ before I was baptised. My salvation is not dependent on my baptism ... although it is a tremendously important symbol of grace.

--------------------
"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien

Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208

 - Posted      Profile for Zach82     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
To reiterate: I am very surprised - and not a little dismayed - to hear that the SA are not seen as Christians.

Fine. Are you dismayed because you feel it is factually incorrect, or because you feel it is unloving to say so? You comments about "being and arse" would indicate the latter.

Even in your definition, we are talking about people who are not obedient to Jesus' extremely clear command. Baptism is, in fact, easily the most clear and straightforward commandment Jesus makes.

--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Matt Black

Shipmate
# 2210

 - Posted      Profile for Matt Black   Email Matt Black   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
The difference is being 'born again', as Jesus Himself said. He puts His new life in us, by His Holy Spirit.

You and I would agree on baptism being a sign of obedience. But as an evangelical, I disagree that infant baptism automatically conveys grace. There are countless people in the UK who were baptised as infants but have grown up to have no interest in Christianity whatsoever. Infant baptism does not guarantee a mature faith later on (neither does believers' baptism).

As I said up-thread, I came to Christ before I was baptised. My salvation is not dependent on my baptism ... although it is a tremendously important symbol of grace.

It's not an 'either/or' but a 'both/and': spiritual rebirth is by water and the Spirit.

--------------------
"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208

 - Posted      Profile for Zach82     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
The difference is being 'born again', as Jesus Himself said. He puts His new life in us, by His Holy Spirit.

You and I would agree on baptism being a sign of obedience. But as an evangelical, I disagree that infant baptism automatically conveys grace. There are countless people in the UK who were baptised as infants but have grown up to have no interest in Christianity whatsoever. Infant baptism does not guarantee a mature faith later on (neither does believers' baptism).

As I said up-thread, I came to Christ before I was baptised. My salvation is not dependent on my baptism ... although it is a tremendously important symbol of grace.

It's not an 'either/or' but a 'both/and': spiritual rebirth is by water and the Spirit.
Or, as we say in Anglicanism, water and Word are "Outward and visible signs of inward and spiritual grace."

--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

 - Posted      Profile for LeRoc     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Zach82: Since you insist on getting off topic, probably because you keep your terms vague
I've paraphrased a bit, but my terms are Biblical.

quote:
Zach82: being faithful to the grace Jesus has given be in baptism demands a life time of striving. But failing to be faithful to that calling doesn't mean God hasn't given me that grace.
In broad lines, I agree with this. I believe that a life time of striving for others should be a reponse of what you call God's Grace and what I'd call His inspiration. Potato, potahto. I also agree with you that we'll still have His Grace even if we fail.

But what you are saying is that baptism is necessary in order to be a Christian. The Biblical basis for this is flimsy at best (even if you do read it as a rule book, which I don't), and denied by large swaths of Christianity because it makes Grace depend on the act of baptism (a work).

--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211

 - Posted      Profile for Laurelin   Email Laurelin   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Fine. Are you dismayed because you feel it is factually incorrect, or because you feel it is unloving to say so?

I believe, very strongly, that it is factually incorrect not to call the SA Christians. Their beliefs are completely orthodox.

quote:
Even in your definition, we are talking about people who are not obedient to Jesus' extremely clear command. Baptism is, in fact, easily the most clear and straightforward commandment Jesus makes.
Yes, of course it is, but the thief on the cross had no time to get baptised, did he? And yet Paradise was his. We are conflating two things here: obedience to a command of Jesus, and the actual mode of salvation which, I believe, is greater than baptism (as important as baptism is).

Also, people can be off-kilter on certain points and yet still part of mainline Christianity. That is, after all, what I believe about certain aspects of Roman Catholic doctrine, which I genuinely regard as unbiblical add-ons. I still believe Roman Catholics are my brothers and sisters in the faith. They, of course, sincerely believe that I am wrong in my doctrine on certain points. (And so it goes on ...)

Yes, I'd far rather the SA did practise the sacraments. But I don't believe that seeing them as being outside the Church is correct.

--------------------
"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien

Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012  |  IP: Logged
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

 - Posted      Profile for LeRoc     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Zach82: Actually, in looking to the biblical definition of the word Christian, that is exactly what I am doing. In refusing to look at the biblical judgement in these matters, that is exactly what you are failing to do.
No. The Bible isn't God's way of passing His prerrogative of judging people unto us.

And BTW, where exactly does the Bible define the word 'Christian'?

--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208

 - Posted      Profile for Zach82     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
But what you are saying is that baptism is necessary in order to be a Christian. The Biblical basis for this is flimsy at best (even if you do read it as a rule book, which I don't), and denied by large swaths of Christianity because it makes Grace depend on the act of baptism (a work).
Actually, the biblical evidence is incredibly solid. "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Mark 16:16 Though I take by your comment that you don't take the bible as a rulebook that you feel perfectly at ease to ignore the data that is inconvenient for your position, so I don't see why I bothered to open the new window to look it up.

--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211

 - Posted      Profile for Laurelin   Email Laurelin   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
And BTW, where exactly does the Bible define the word 'Christian'?

"The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch." Acts 11:26. [Cool]

It was meant to be an insult by those who called them that. Those weird Jews who professed to follow Jesus the Messiah who they said had risen from the dead.

A Christian is someone who believes in Christ and follows Him ...

--------------------
"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien

Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208

 - Posted      Profile for Zach82     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Yes, of course it is, but the thief on the cross had no time to get baptised, did he? And yet Paradise was his. We are conflating two things here: obedience to a command of Jesus, and the actual mode of salvation which, I believe, is greater than baptism (as important as baptism is).
Ah, imprecise terminology strikes again. Who here said Salvationists cannot be saved? God saves whomever he likes. What has been argued here is that only those who are baptized are members of the Body of Christ, the Church. 'Saved' and 'Christian' are not the same thing.

--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Plique-à-jour
Shipmate
# 17717

 - Posted      Profile for Plique-à-jour     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
So, I have two questions:

1) What properly constitutes a church, in your opinion.

2) Does The Salvation Army fit into that definition and can justifiable call itself a church; or do we fall outside that definition and therefore have to call ourselves something different.

1: An organisation that calls itself a church.

2. Evidentally so.

--------------------
-

-

Posts: 333 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jun 2013  |  IP: Logged
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696

 - Posted      Profile for Evensong   Author's homepage   Email Evensong   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Lord have mercy you do talk alot of tosh about what it means to be a Christian sometimes Zach.

Being a Christian does require our co-operation. Baptism is not a magic mumbo jumbo act that requires nothing of us whatsoever.


As for Mudfrog's question of church: the biblical term is ἐκκλησία, which means assembly.

[ 27. September 2013, 14:45: Message edited by: Evensong ]

--------------------
a theological scrapbook

Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

 - Posted      Profile for LeRoc     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Zach82: Actually, the biblical evidence is incredibly solid. "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Mark 16:16
It would be incredibly solid if it said "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not or not be baptized shall be damned."

To put the structure more clearly, the text divides people like this:
  • People who believe and are baptized → saved.
  • People who don't believe and are baptized → damned
  • People who don't believe and are not baptized → damned
  • People who believe but are not baptized → ???
In fact, the second line of this is incredibly solid evidence against your position.

--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208

 - Posted      Profile for Zach82     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Zach82: Actually, the biblical evidence is incredibly solid. "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Mark 16:16
It would be incredibly solid if it said "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not or not be baptized shall be damned."

To put the structure more clearly, the text divides people like this:
  • People who believe and are baptized → saved.
  • People who don't believe and are baptized → damned
  • People who don't believe and are not baptized → damned
  • People who believe but are not baptized → ???
In fact, the second line of this is incredibly solid evidence against your position.

Not if one bothers to have clear terminology. I haven't argued that all Christians are saved, or that all non-Christians are damned.

Though this is only the normal course of all of Mudfrog's threads on the sacraments. Ho hum.

--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

 - Posted      Profile for LeRoc     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Zach82: 'Saved' and 'Christian' are not the same thing.
Then why did you quote Mark 16:16 as evidence of who is a Christian and who isn't? It mentions the word 'saved' but not the word 'Christian'.

--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

 - Posted      Profile for LeRoc     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Zach82: I haven't argued that all Christians are saved, or that all non-Christians are damned.
Yes you have. See my remark on your quoting of Mark 16:16.

So once again, give me your Biblical evidence that being baptized is necessary to be a Christian.

--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
pererin
Shipmate
# 16956

 - Posted      Profile for pererin   Email pererin   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Actually, the biblical evidence is incredibly solid. "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Note the verb tense: "shall be saved". It doesn't say "is saved". Salvation in this sense belongs to the eschaton (cf the verb tenses in Romans 6 — Paul's also quite deliberate on this one).

--------------------
"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)

Posts: 446 | From: Llantrisant | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  5  ...  10  11  12 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools