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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: A Church?
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
I don't recognize your commentary on Matthew and neither should Zach82 or anybody else.
Fuck serious debate.
This is both easy and fun. ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Zach82: I can see that you still haven't actually read my posts. Get back to me what you have. I am not making judgments about how is going to hell. I am tired of re-answering this rebuttal.
And I'm fucking tired of repeating "It isn't just about judging who'll go to Hell, it's also about judging who is a Christian and who isn't." It's literally in my post!
You can't wiggle your way out of judging people as non-Christians by saying "I'm not saying that you'll go to Hell". It is still judging, something that Jesus explicitly forbade us to do.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Beeswax Altar: I don't recognize your commentary on Matthew and neither should Zach82 or anybody else.
There's no reason why you should. The One who has the final word on this is up there in Heaven. Like He has the final word on who is a Christian and what is a church. Not you.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I will continue this discussion with you, LeRoc, when you can do it with some objectivity and emotional control. I know full well there is no point in discussing anything with you when you are like this.
Since you are so literalistic about the commandment not to judge, I expect you will not doubt my stated reasons for discontinuing this discussion.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Zach82: I will continue this discussion with you, LeRoc, when you can do it with some objectivity and emotional control.
Either you'll answer my arguments, or you'll think up an excuse to run away from the discussion. I don't care.
PS I wonder if remarks on someone's emotional state and phrases like "When you are in this state" are attacking the person instead of the argument?
[ 01. October 2013, 18:50: Message edited by: LeRoc ]
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
True but if I believe the One in Heaven to have revealed the answer to both questions then I should say so. You are free to disagree or ignore me. I'm free to ignore you. Absent any common ground on a subject discussion is rather pointless. Now, why if you don't care, you would ask as Mudfrog did remains to be seen.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Zach82: I will continue this discussion with you, LeRoc, when you can do it with some objectivity and emotional control.
Either you'll answer my arguments, or you'll think up an excuse to run away from the discussion. I don't care.
I would be happy to discuss the principles of the Church faith with you, LeRoc, but to be honest you are being a baby right now, and I have no desire to argue with a baby.
quote:
PS I wonder if remarks on someone's emotional state and phrases like "When you are in this state" are attacking the person instead of the argument?
Yeah, it's pretty clear I am choosing not to argue with you as a person at the moment. You can choose to believe that this is because you are so right, but that would confirm the reason I chose not to discuss the issues with you in the first place.
Catch 22, innit?
[ 01. October 2013, 18:55: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Zach82: I will continue this discussion with you, LeRoc, when you can do it with some objectivity and emotional control.
Either you'll answer my arguments, or you'll think up an excuse to run away from the discussion. I don't care.
You are accusing Zach of running away. How dare you judge? Jesus told us not to judge. Zach's true motives for not continuing the discussion at this time are known only to the One in Heaven. Not you.
Doing this requires so much less thought.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Zach82: you are being a baby right now, and I have no desire to argue with a baby.
I would like to request a Host's opinion on this.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Zach82: I will continue this discussion with you, LeRoc, when you can do it with some objectivity and emotional control.
Either you'll answer my arguments, or you'll think up an excuse to run away from the discussion. I don't care.
I would be happy to discuss the principles of the Church faith with you, LeRoc, but to be honest you are being a baby right now, and I have no desire to argue with a baby.
You obviously don't have a baby. I do. Trust me when I say this, arguing with a baby is nowhere near this easy or fun.
No!!!
Waahhhh
But Daddy wasn't trying to be mean. He just doesn't want you to hurt yourself.
Bbbbbbb...sniff..Abbuhbuh
I know Honey. You don't know why Daddy told you No. Daddy will pick you up. Juice?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Beeswax Altar: You are accusing Zach of running away.
I do not think that 'Do not judge' means that we can never give an opinion about eachother's behaviour. I do however believe that the Big Questions™ are reserved to Him.
And 'Why are you judging my judgamentality?' comes over as a bit lame, don't you think?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
I've already said I don't recognize your commentary on Matthew. You judged Zach. Judging is bad. Jesus said so.
Of course, it is lame. That's my point. I think your whole line of argument on this thread is lame.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Beeswax Altar: I think your whole line of argument on this thread is lame.
I think the argument can be summarized as this:
Zach & BA: We judge that TSA isn't a Church.
LeRoc: I don't recognize your judgement. I also believe that Jesus doesn't want us to judge people like this.
Zach & BA: You're judging us!!!
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Beeswax Altar: I think your whole line of argument on this thread is lame.
I think the argument can be summarized as this:
Zach & BA: We judge that TSA isn't a Church.
LeRoc: I don't recognize your judgement. I also believe that Jesus doesn't want us to judge people like this.
Zach & BA: You're judging us!!!
You left out all of your enraged swearing.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Zach82: You left out all of your enraged swearing.
Swearing is explicitly allowed on this board.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Doesn't mean swearing doesn't reflect on you or your ability to discuss principles objectively.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Beeswax Altar: I think your whole line of argument on this thread is lame.
I think the argument can be summarized as this:
Zach & BA: We judge that TSA isn't a Church.
LeRoc: I don't recognize your judgement. I also believe that Jesus doesn't want us to judge people like this.
Zach & BA: You're judging us!!!
A better summary would be:
Mudfrog: Do you think the Salvation Army is a Church.
Beeswax Altar, Zach82, and others: No, here is why not.
LeRoc: Stop judging you judging judgmental jerks!!!
Of course,the nonjudgmental answer to the question would be, "I don't know." Then again, my answer to all questions about God including whether or not God cares if we judge would also have to be, "I don't know." Your line of argument is lame because you arbitrarily draw the line at what can be known about the will of God from scripture based on whether or not you like it then accuse others of making further arguments from scripture as being judgmental.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
While this is going on, in hell LeRoc is criticizing the whole Church for failing to live up to his standard of righteousness.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Beeswax Altar: LeRoc: Stop judging you judging judgmental jerks!!!
I didn't call anyone that.
quote:
Beeswax Altar: Of course,the nonjudgmental answer to the question would be, "I don't know."
So, why not leave it there?
quote:
Beeswax Altar: Then again, my answer to all questions about God including whether or not God cares if we judge would also have to be, "I don't know."
Or maybe "Here's my take on it, but of course the final judgement is up to Him."
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Zach82: While this is going on, in hell LeRoc is criticizing the whole Church for failing to live up to his standard of righteousness.
I'm saying that I'm in a love-hate relationship with the church that is tipping towards hate. I'm not saying that it isn't a church, or that the people in there aren't Christians.
The standards of righteousness are for Him to give, and it's His call to hold it against these standards. My remark takes nothing away from that.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
You hate them because...?
I assume, in that context, you hate the Church for not being good enough, for all its many failures and hypocrisies. Which seems, to me, to run afoul of Jesus' commandment not to judge far worse that merely saying "Unbaptized people ain't baptized." Which is, whether you want to see it or not, all Bee and I have argued.
In telling us not to judge, is Jesus giving a literalistic commandment to never apply principles to human actions, or commending to the Church a general attitude of granting others the benefit of the doubt?
I grant TSA the benefit of the doubt. I don't think they refuse to be baptized because they are bad people or anything. But I do think they are making a mistake and that this mistake cuts them off from an offer of grace. I do think I can say so without failing in this call to charity.
[ 01. October 2013, 19:37: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by LeRoc:
Or maybe "Here's my take on it, but of course the final judgement is up to Him."
Why? You didn't. You could say I think The Salvation Army is a church and they are all Christians. Of course, I could be wrong. God might decide The Salvation Army is an evil and wicked organization and condemn the whole lot of them to the Hell mentioned in their own Soldier's Covenant. We just don't know. It's His to judge. You didn't though, did you?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Zach82: You hate them because...?
I guess that's a discussion by itself. I like my church (probably for all the reasons why you'd hate it), but on some moments I see the people listening and singing and I can't help myself from thinking: "Is this what Jesus had in mind?"
But of course, the final call on that is on Him too.
quote:
Zach82: In telling us not to judge, is Jesus giving a literalistic commandment to never apply principles to human actions, or commending to the Church a general attitude of granting others the benefit of the doubt?
My own interpretation of it, is that Jesus isn't saying that we can't give our opinions about things or people. But especially when it comes to the Big Things™, we should always keep in mind that in the end it isn't our call to make.
quote:
Zach82: But I do think they are making a mistake and that this mistake cuts them off from an offer of grace.
I happen to believe that an offer of grace from an All-Loving, All-Powerful God is so strong that it can't be cut off by anything we do.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
The rule in Purgatory is to engage the argument, not the man. The three of you have been violating that for some time now. Cut the crap.
--Tom Clune, Purgatory Host
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Beeswax Altar: Why? You didn't. You could say I think The Salvation Army is a church and they are all Christians. Of course, I could be wrong. God might decide The Salvation Army is an evil and wicked organization and condemn the whole lot of them to the Hell mentioned in their own Soldier's Covenant. We just don't know. It's His to judge. You didn't though, did you?
I'm trying to parse the grammar in some of these sentences, but I'm not really succeeding.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Clemency
Shipmate
# 16173
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Posted
May I come in on this one, rather late in the day, as a person reared in the SA - three meetings every Sunday (father was bandmaster and mother played the organ), and point out that the SA is (or was in my day - I defected into being an Anglican c 1975, so my experience was in the period 1950-1975 at a North of England corps) sacramental, except that it had chosen its own sacraments, the flag and the penitent form/mercy seat, a bench at the front at which people were invited to kneel when an appeal was given.. 'Salvation meetings' on Sunday evenings might go on for two hours or more, and we might sing hymns (always 'songs' in SA parlance) like 'Just as I am' time and time again until someone did come forward.Sometimes things got grossly over-emotional, but getting public comings-forward was all important - a tally was kept, and I think (Mudfrog correct me if I am wrong) published in the weekly SA newspaper 'The War Cry', to demonstrate the state of health of the corps. From my memories it was often the same folk who responded week after week. Woe betide anyone who placed anything on 'the mercy seat', or worse still sat on it - it was seen as holy, as was the flag, which we even sang songs about 'I cannot leave the dear old flag, t'were better far to die....'. The feeling was that 'churches' were second rate, a Salvationist might backslide and become a Methodist, for example. My mother would say 'they do not have as high standards as us' - I was told some Church of England clergymen smoked pipes, and knocked them out on the side of the porch as they entered church! I shuddered. Smoking and drinking were, of course, to SA eyes slightly worse than genocide.
These are all childhood/adolescent memories and of course may be skewed. There were some weird folk and some great ones, whose influence may well have kept me within the Christian church. Attending an Anglican church and first coming to Communion in my twenties, it was, and remains, very special; I was duly sprinkled and confirmed, and today even wear a frock as a reader.... an SA upbringing never leaves you, but I could never settle back in the SA now, although I really enjoy the occasional visit. I could never sign up to a definition of Christian which excluded the SA, but a church??? not sure, maybe a defective church (but then again aren't most of them?) albeit a very effective one at some times and places. Maybe an SA Reformation is needed today. Booth was a great guy but I guess he got some things, primarily the sacraments issue, wrong; he would certainly have distanced himself from the word 'church', seeing his mission as to people who would never go near a building bearing that label. Did he really intend to found a denomination, or send converts back into mainline churches? - in some ways a similar position to the one Wesley found himself in. He ordered that SA buildings must look as little like churches as possible, but more like places of secular entertainment, with battlements to go with the military jingoism popular at the time, and bright red brick to symbolise the Blood of Christ...
It was all incredibly controversial back in he 1880s, when, in London, more folk were attending SA meetings than Anglican services... the straitlaced were horrified. The Earl of Shaftesbury declared Booth to be the Antichrist. That all seems an awful long time ago now.....
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Who knows where the Time goes?
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
My own interpretation of it, is that Jesus isn't saying that we can't give our opinions about things or people. But especially when it comes to the Big Things™, we should always keep in mind that in the end it isn't our call to make.
I think it diminishes Jesus' commandment a great deal to make it about shutting your mouth instead of about charity, and your position isn't sustained by the text.
Neither is your completely arbitrary distinction between "Big things" and little things present in the text.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Zach82: I think it diminishes Jesus' commandment a great deal to make it about shutting your mouth instead of about charity, and your position isn't sustained by the text.
I didn't say anything about shutting your mouth. I talked about keeping in mind that it isn't your judgement to make.
quote:
Zach82: Neither is your completely arbitrary distinction between "Big things" and little things present in the text.
This is just as arbitrary as "Refusing to be baptized inhibits you from being a Christian, but refusing to feed the poor doesn't". Both are commands given by Jesus, and He didn't attach a quality of Christianity or non-Christianity to either of them.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Zach82: I think it diminishes Jesus' commandment a great deal to make it about shutting your mouth instead of about charity, and your position isn't sustained by the text.
I didn't say anything about shutting your mouth. I talked about keeping in mind that it isn't your judgement to make.
quote:
Zach82: Neither is your completely arbitrary distinction between "Big things" and little things present in the text.
This is just as arbitrary as "Refusing to be baptized inhibits you from being a Christian, but refusing to feed the poor doesn't". Both are commands given by Jesus, and He didn't attach a quality of Christianity or non-Christianity to either of them.
Unless there is a fundamental difference between a sacrament and a good work. Like, if one was an act of God, and the other was an act of a human being. Then the distinction is not completely arbitrary, but a mere application of abstract definitions to particular circumstances, which could be done with or without charity.
You see, I agree that it is the grace of God alone that makes a Christian, and I believe the Bible when it says that this grace is given in baptism. Since this grace is given in baptism, it can't be lost through a failure of charity.
And the Bible DOES attach the character of being a member of the Church to baptism.
[ 01. October 2013, 20:06: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Beeswax Altar: Why? You didn't. You could say I think The Salvation Army is a church and they are all Christians. Of course, I could be wrong. God might decide The Salvation Army is an evil and wicked organization and condemn the whole lot of them to the Hell mentioned in their own Soldier's Covenant. We just don't know. It's His to judge. You didn't though, did you?
I'm trying to parse the grammar in some of these sentences, but I'm not really succeeding.
If God alone can judge, your opinion is no more relevant than mine. You should also qualify your opinion with, "That's just my opinion and I could be wrong." If God alone can judge, God might judge every leader of The Salvation Army to be an evil and wicked person condemned to the very Hell mentioned in The Soldier's Covenant. The nonjudgmental response would be The Salvation Army might be a church composed of Christians bound for the Promised Land, an evil and wicked organization of the damned, or anything in between. After all, it's all up to God. We just don't know.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I do not accept that baptism makes you a Christian, in exactly the same way that being circumcised, according to Jesus, doesn't make you a son of Abraham.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I do not accept that baptism makes you a Christian, in exactly the same way that being circumcised, according to Jesus, doesn't make you a son of Abraham.
We know you don't. But do you find warrant in scripture for this conclusion?
The epistles say it is baptism that unites people into the one Church, the body of Christ, which would indicate this principle you cite is misapplied.
[ 01. October 2013, 21:39: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I do not accept that baptism makes you a Christian, in exactly the same way that being circumcised, according to Jesus, doesn't make you a son of Abraham.
We know you don't. But do you find warrant in scripture for this conclusion?
The epistles say it is baptism that unites people into the one Church, the body of Christ, which would indicate this principle you cite is misapplied.
Er no, the epistles say that it is the Holy Spirit who unites people into the one body of Christ. We are "All one in Christ," not "All one in baptism".
I erred in saying it was Jesus, it was actually John who said, "Do not think you can say to yourselves, 'we have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham."
In other words, being part of a covenant by ritual ceremony does not make you spiritually in a relationship with God.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Zach82: Unless there is a fundamental difference between a sacrament and a good work. Like, if one was an act of God, and the other was an act of a human being.
Baptism isn't solely an act of God. We still have to do something, and you say that we're being judged on that. I mean, if it were solely an act of God, how could we be judged for it?
quote:
Beeswax Altar:If God alone can judge, your opinion is no more relevant than mine. You should also qualify your opinion with, "That's just my opinion and I could be wrong."
I do.
quote:
Beeswax Altar: The nonjudgmental response would be The Salvation Army might be a church composed of Christians bound for the Promised Land, an evil and wicked organization of the damned, or anything in between. After all, it's all up to God. We just don't know.
Or "I personally don't accept TSA as a church, but I concede that the final judgement on that lies with God." I wouldn't have a problem at all if you'd said that.
However, instead you stated that God has revealed His judgement to you, and that because of this you are qualified to judge in His place. I'm actually flabbergasted by this.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Er no, the epistles say that it is the Holy Spirit who unites people into the one body of Christ. We are "All one in Christ," not "All one in baptism".
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:" (Romans 6:3-5)
quote:
In other words, being part of a covenant by ritual ceremony does not make you spiritually in a relationship with God.
You are reading into the passage a debate that simply isn't there. The Covenant demands a response, and he is attacking those who have not responded with justice and righteousness. He doesn't say that circumcision is worthless, much less does he say that all ritual action is worthless. That is your imposition on the text.
Furthermore, "circumcision" was not a mere ritual act in the Bible. It was a sign of one's membership in the Jewish nation, which was set apart to be faithful to God in a world of gentiles. Jesus ushers in a new age where it is possible for all nations to be faithful to God. Thus, the epistles view baptism as a sign of the new covenant that is open to Jews and Gentiles alike. It is a ritual act that trumps the divisions of humankind.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I might add that this speech you cite is part of John the Baptist calling people to baptism, so the fact that you could read it and believe that he meant to deny the centrality of baptism is really bizarre.
[ 02. October 2013, 00:15: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by LeRoc:
I do.
Glad to hear it!
Come then let us reason together:
I believe The Salvation Army is not a church because it doesn't offer the sacraments. You believe The Salvation Army is a church even though it doesn't offer the sacraments. We both admit that we could be wrong and that God is the ultimate judge.
Agreed?
Beeswax's Wager Part 1:
1. Those of us who believe administration of sacraments are one of the marks of the church and that any community that does not administer the dominical sacraments is not a church may be right.
2. Nobody believes administration of the sacraments are marks of not being a church.
3. The Salvation Army itself agrees that the sacraments are efficacious for those that receive them. It allows it's officers to receive the sacraments if they so desire. We know from Mudfrog's testimony that some officers receive communion in an ecumenical setting when invited.
4. Administering the sacraments would not require The Salvation Army to change any of it's core beliefs including the one about the sacraments not being necessary for salvation.
5. If the Salvation Army wants to be considered a church, it should err on the side of caution and administer the dominical sacraments.
Beeswax's Wager Part 2
1. Neither of us believe that the unbaptized are automatically going to Hell. We maybe wrong. God is the ultimate judge.
2. Some Christians (such as the aforementioned Churches of Christ) maintain that those who aren't baptized are going to Hell. In fairness, they could be right. We don't know. God is the ultimate judge.
3. You and I are skeptical of the concept of Hell as a place of eternal conscious punishment. We could be wrong. God is the ultimate judge.
4. The Salvation Army and the Churches of Christ both believe in Hell as a place of eternal conscious torment. They could be right. God is the ultimate judge.
5. See Beeswax's Wager Part 1.3 above.
6. See Beeswax's Wager Part 1.4. above.
7. A valid baptism requires only seconds to perform.
8. The Salvation Army should baptize all it's members to ensure they don't spend eternity in Hell.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Beeswax Altar: 5. If the Salvation Army wants to be considered a church, it should err on the side of caution and administer the dominical sacraments.
I have no problem if you advice TSA to administer baptism, on the basis of "maybe God won't consider you a church if you don't." An advice can always be given, and people can take it or not.
The problem however, is that on this thread you have already decided that they're not a church if they don't. (For example here). That's putting yourself in God's place.
quote:
Beeswax Altar: 1. Neither of us believe that the unbaptized are automatically going to Hell. We maybe wrong. God is the ultimate judge.
If we're wrong on this one, then this god doesn't deserve any worship from me. If this is the case, then I'll gladly renounce my baptism and join the Salvationists in Hell.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Oh, no, it goes beyond advising them. If all the points of Beeswax's Wager Part 1 are true and you don't refute any of them, the only rational thing for The Salvation Army to do is administer the sacraments. Not administering the sacraments would be passing judgment on the claim that administration of the sacraments is a necessary mark of the church. Only God can make that judgment, remember? On the other hand, administering the sacraments would not in and of itself pass judgment on your claim that The Salvation Army is a church even though it doesn't administer the sacraments.
As to your second statement, you may be content to spend eternity suffering in Hell in protest of their being a Hell in the first place. However, as I explained in BW 2.4, The Salvation Army has no problem with a God who condemns souls to eternal torment. They don't want to join you in eternal martyrdom if they are right and you are wrong(neither do I for that matter). For the SA, salvation really is partly about saving one's soul from eternal damnation. Unless some other point in BW 2 is refuted, then the only rational thing for The Salvation Army to do is baptize all it's members.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Beeswax Altar: Not administering the sacraments would be passing judgment on the claim that administration of the sacraments is a necessary mark of the church.
There are a lot of claims going around in churches around the world, some of them quite contradictory. TSA cannot go along with all of them, not even to fulfill Beeswax Altar's wager. They have to choose. Your church doesn't believe every claim that's out there either. I have no problem with that. I do have a problem with people passing judgment on people though.
quote:
Beeswax Altar: However, as I explained in BW 2.4, The Salvation Army has no problem with a God who condemns souls to eternal torment.
You're moving goalposts here. I'm quite sure that the Salvation Army does have a problem with a god who condemns souls to eternal torment on the basis of them not having undergone baptism.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by LeRoc:
There are a lot of claims going around in churches around the world, some of them quite contradictory. TSA cannot go along with all of them, not even to fulfill Beeswax Altar's wager. They have to choose. Your church doesn't believe every claim that's out there either. I have no problem with that. I do have a problem with people passing judgment on people though.
You are ignoring points 2-4 of BW 1.
quote:
originally posted by LeRoc:
You're moving goalposts here. I'm quite sure that the Salvation Army does have a problem with a god who condemns souls to eternal torment on the basis of them not having undergone baptism.
Problem in what way? The Salvation Army doesn't have a problem with the concept of eternal conscious torment. They don't have a problem with a God that saves only those who follow a specific path. They would gladly teach and administer water baptism if they truly became convinced it was necessary for salvation. They don't teach it because they don't believe it. In doing so, there is a possibility that they are condemning millions to eternal damnation because after all they could be wrong and only God can judge. The only responsible thing to do is baptized everybody just to be on the safe side.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Beeswax Altar: You are ignoring points 2-4 of BW 1.
I can assure you that I'm well aware of them.
quote:
Beeswax Altar: The only responsible thing to do is baptized everybody just to be on the safe side.
Yes, that's a great advice to give to them, up until the point where you already anticipate God's judgement by calling them non-Christians for not taking your advice.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
I raised an issue up-thread which has yet to be addressed by the 'water baptism is regeneration' party ... what of the many folk who are baptised as infants yet grow up to have no professing faith in Christ at all?
I agree with Mudfrog that the Holy Spirit gives spiritual life, not the performance of a sacrament. I was 'born again' BEFORE I was baptised. That is a very important point. No evangelical I know believes that water baptism on its own mechanically conveys grace without a spiritual awakening from the Spirit. (And, no, I'm not a rabid anti-paedo-baptist.)
But I part company with Mudfrog on the issues of baptism and Holy Communion because I believe the New Testament teaches that the people of God will honour those two ordinances and make them part of normal church life.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
I raised an issue up-thread which has yet to be addressed by the 'water baptism is regeneration' party ... what of the many folk who are baptised as infants yet grow up to have no professing faith in Christ at all?
I agree with Mudfrog that the Holy Spirit gives spiritual life, not the performance of a sacrament. I was 'born again' BEFORE I was baptised. That is a very important point. No evangelical I know believes that water baptism on its own mechanically conveys grace without a spiritual awakening from the Spirit. (And, no, I'm not a rabid anti-paedo-baptist.)
But I part company with Mudfrog on the issues of baptism and Holy Communion because I believe the New Testament teaches that the people of God will honour those two ordinances and make them part of normal church life.
On that final point, and with reference to communion, I wonder what the ordinance is actually asking of us.
I guess from your belief about the non-regenerative 'power' of the water of baptism that you also reject the transubstantiation/real presence of the bread and wine/juice.
Apart from the idea that Jesus said we should 'do this', what are we actually 'doing' in the Lord's supper that makes it 'worth doing', as it were?
What is He asking us to do?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
To go back to the original question, I think that trying to answer the question "Is the SA a church?" from the point of view of the Bible is a non-starter. I don't see the concept of "a" church in the New Testament at all. There is simply "the" Church. The Church is where disciples are gathered, wherever that may be.
So, it's like asking "is the SA a denomination?". The concept of a denomination doesn't exist in scripture, so answering the question has to start post-NT.
Given that, what "a church" is becomes more subjective than some posters seem to think, and your definition might be different based on bias towards tradition, scripture, or even secular (dictionary?) perspectives.
From the NT point of view, then, if the Church is simply where disciples are (if we're arguing from a biblical POV, then it makes sense to use the terms that the Bible primarily uses, and disciple is far more common than Christian), then it makes sense to ask the question "what is a disciple?".
So, I understand Zach's assertion that unbaptised members of the SA aren't Christians; after all, it's undeniable that, from the New Testament's point of view, a Christian is someone who is baptised.
However, I think his conclusion is simplistic, for two reasons.
Firstly, there are many other definitions of what a disciple is. Jesus said that the world would know his disciples by the way they love each other. Given that definition, there are many baptised people who fail to live up to the what a disciple is by Jesus own definition. Despite your proof-texts, Zach, I'm sure that if we had a thread "What is a Christian?", the debate would be long. It's not an easy question to answer, and ISTM that different answers can be gleaned from different parts of scripture.
Secondly, while it's true that in the New Testament, baptised = disciple, what we do with that information can be different. You can just assert (as you do, Zach), that the same must be true today, and therefore the opposite is also true (not baptised = not Christian). However, what seems more important to point out is that, as a result, they never had to answer the question "if someone isn't baptised, can they still be a Christian?". There wasn't anyone who fell into that category, who claimed to be a Christian, but wasn't baptised. So it's a debate that isn't there in Scripture.
So the debate happened later, for example, with Constantine refusing to be baptised until near death. Yet, he's called the first Christian emperor, which suggests that there's precedent that someone can be defined as a Christian, without being baptised.
For me, arguing whether or not someone else is a Christian or not is an exercise in futility, even if I have my inklings. And when I hear fundamentalist Protestants claiming that "Roman Catholics aren't Christians", or Zach and Beeswax claiming that Sally Army members aren't Christians, it just makes me sad. The Church is broken enough as it is, without us imposing more foolish divisions.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Thought y'all might be interested in THIS
It's a recent (2008) official statement about where our leadership feels we stand. It includes a statement, and then the covenant promises made by our junior members, our adult members and finally the covenant of our officers who are ordained and commissioned following the signing of that covenant.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I guess from your belief about the non-regenerative 'power' of the water of baptism that you also reject the transubstantiation/real presence of the bread and wine/juice.
Yes, that's correct. I'm evangelical. I don't believe in literal transubstantiation. At the same time, I do wonder whether Communion is merely a commemorative act. There is certainly a mystery here, one which I am very glad to celebrate. The Eucharist moves me in its very simplicity, actually. And CS Lewis, in Mere Christianity, talks about God using "material things like bread and wine to put the new life into us. We may think this rather crude and unspiritual. God does not: He invented eating. He likes matter. He invented it."
quote:
Apart from the idea that Jesus said we should 'do this', what are we actually 'doing' in the Lord's supper that makes it 'worth doing', as it were?
What is He asking us to do?
From an evangelical POV: to remember Him. Which is no small matter. Communion is intimate and powerful and I cannot/dare not take it lightly.
From a Catholic POV: to receive His grace through the sacrament.
Communion is rooted in the Passover. I also believe it is more than the Passover, because of what the death, sacrifice and Resurrection of Jesus entails. However fellow Christians interpret this mysterious feast, the fact that the Church, in all her forms, has been doing this for 2,000 years might give pause for thought?
I in no way regard you as a lesser or inferior Christian because TSA doesn't celebrate Communion, by the way. But I do think TSA is missing out.
William Booth said something which was perfectly valid all those years ago (he was right, the rowing about Communion is a historical disgrace) but it's as if his valid statement has fossilised, calcified if you will, into a definite denominational stance that cannot be shaken. This does tend to happen with renewal/revival movements in the Church's history ...
And the arguments within the Church down the centuries doesn't, for me, negate the fact that Communion is important and that Jesus asked us to do it.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
IMO NO protestant denomination is a "Church" in the proper sense - they are communities of christians. We can spend forever debating whether they form a detached part of The One Holy and Apostolic Church, but they cannot be "The Church" in their own right.
I'm not flame-baiting, that's what I believe, but YMMV.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
Addendum: "Catholic" should have gone in there somewhere, of course.
[ 02. October 2013, 09:51: Message edited by: Mark Betts ]
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
What is He asking us to do?
From an evangelical POV: to remember Him. Which is no small matter.
And that, I feel, is at the heart of the matter.
Salvationist worship is HUGE on the cross.
In our song book there are 137 references to the cross, 80 references to Calvary, 40 references to the death of Jesus, 9 references to that death being a sacrifice, and I can't be bothered to count all the other references.
Traditionally our evening services all focus upon salvation through the cross - i don't think you could have many salvation Army meetings where the cross is not deliberately or specifically mentioned.
I think we honour his request to 'remember me' as fully as we can, and as much as anyone else.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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