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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Are these people complete prats?
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
I'm generally not in favor of "big government" as the solution to societal problems, but the free market has shown itself in this instance to be incompetent at covering all the people at a reasonable rate. So...
The government has a sorry record, too. I looked the other day at what % of our gdp the federal government already spends on medical and it is there with what other countries spend on everyone. If Obama, Reid and Boner came over to help me work on a car I'd expect them to show up with a rake, hoe and a shovel.
Which is based on payments made into the current system. Of course, if you actually look at which American programs have the best record of controlling costs* you'll see that the government has a much better record than the private sector in this area. Your argument essentially amounts to leaving the present, demonstrably less efficient system in place because health care is excessively expensive under that system. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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*The New York Times has a ridiculous paywall that allows non-subscribers to access ten articles for free per calendar month, etc.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
The working poor in Flyover Country will benefit strongly from the ACA.
Yep. My 27 year old daughter living in Nashville TN will see her premiums more than double according to what I've thus far found.
There's that and hours being cut to avoid Obamacare, so many of our young will be paying much higher premiums out of diminished pay checks.
If we are going to do this, give it to everyone with both barrels. The exact same rules for everyone with no exemptions and no subsidies.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
The working poor in Flyover Country will benefit strongly from the ACA.
Yep. My 27 year old daughter living in Nashville TN will see her premiums more than double according to what I've thus far found.
Interesting. That's more or less the opposite of what the preliminary data shows on Obamacare, and what we know from the test case of Massachusetts. Can you provide any links to "what [you]'ve thus far found"? It also seems at odds with this piece from the Minneapolis Star Tribune which cites Tennessee as having the second-lowest health insurance exchange premiums in the country.
[ 01. October 2013, 20:25: Message edited by: Crœsos ]
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Porridge: quote:
The problem here is that there are still fair numbers of the populace who haven't experienced any benefit from the ACA yet -- and indeed, a few places where those individuals may not see any benefit (like in my state, where only one entity is signed up to be our state "marketplace." No competition = no premium savings.)
*sigh* Competition will not infallibly deliver savings in every market. People who are ill will pay whatever they can afford to get better. People who are not ill (or at least, not enough to notice it) won't bother, which is one reason why, as Croesus says, premiums are high. Because the people who are healthy enough not to need a doctor (yet) and those who are rich enough to pay any medical fees upfront do not buy medical insurance.
And because the poor can't afford medical insurance and have to turn up to the emergency room whenever they have an ailment they can't ignore, the cost of the healthcare your government does provide is far higher than it needs to be. It is easier and cheaper to treat most cancers if they are caught early, for example.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
Of course, none of this explains why derailing the Affordable Care Act should be deemed so important it's given a higher priority than literally everything else the U.S. federal government does.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Had I better explain why I suggested it might have something to do with a dogmatic belief in separation of powers?
It's that one reason why politicians might perpetrate this prattery is that this is you get if you give people the power to legislate without their being responsible for the consequences of their actions - or in this case inaction.
I do feel really sorry for those stuck in a system where their jobs or even their poor relief are actually put on the line by this. IMHO that puts the the individual politicians responsible even more at risk of finding themselves outside the realm of God's mercy.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
The working poor in Flyover Country will benefit strongly from the ACA.
Yep. My 27 year old daughter living in Nashville TN will see her premiums more than double according to what I've thus far found.
Interesting. That's more or less the opposite of what the preliminary data shows on Obamacare, and what we know from the test case of Massachusetts. Can you provide any links to "what [you]'ve thus far found"? It also seems at odds with this piece from the Minneapolis Star Tribune which cites Tennessee as having the second-lowest health insurance exchange premiums in the country.
I'm just waiting to see if ACA survives this standoff before going on the exchange to purchase our insurance. My preliminary work has shown we will cut our monthly premium about in 1/2.
Healthy 27 years olds might be paying more, it's true-- being in one of the lowest risk categories, they are used to paying next to nothing, while those in the highest risk categories were paying 40 or 50% of their income... if they were able to purchase insurance at all. Now that it's shared risk, people like your daughter might indeed end up paying more-- even double if the previous rate was something incredibly cheap like $50/mo. Perhaps she can take comfort in knowing, though, that it won't get cancelled and/or hiked up when she gets sick or simply gets older-- which it surely would under the old system (as happened to me many, many times)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I'm just waiting to see if ACA survives this standoff before going on the exchange to purchase our insurance.
How can it not survive? It's already been passed into law.
I'm sure of very little with these idjits allegedly "running" our country, but won't it take an act of Congress to kill ACA? It's already on the books. And you'll note this current Congress has produced little in the action department.
Aside to President Obama, in case he's lurking on board Ship in all his *cough* spare time: if you cave on this and submit to the Tea Party's blackmail aka "request" to "negotiate," I am officially done with you, and when your term's over, you can crawl back to the arms of the six remaining moderate Republicans left in this country, where you belong.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I'm just waiting to see if ACA survives this standoff before going on the exchange to purchase our insurance.
How can it not survive? It's already been passed into law.
I'm sure of very little with these idjits allegedly "running" our country, but won't it take an act of Congress to kill ACA? It's already on the books. And you'll note this current Congress has produced little in the action department.
I think/ hope/ pray you are right, but the fear is that they will kill the subsidies and the individual mandate that are what are making the whole thing work. Without that, the whole package falls apart pretty quickly-- which, of course, is precisely what the GOP wants-- the worst case scenario for the GOP is for Obamacare to go through and be revealed to be a successful cost-saving health plan that doesn't entail creepy sock puppets going up your bum (*note to cross ponders: not hyperbole. The Koch bros actually put out an ad suggesting just that*).
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
Aside to President Obama, in case he's lurking on board Ship in all his *cough* spare time: if you cave on this and submit to the Tea Party's blackmail aka "request" to "negotiate," I am officially done with you, and when your term's over, you can crawl back to the arms of the six remaining moderate Republicans left in this country, where you belong.
Right there with ya.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Your argument essentially amounts to leaving the present, demonstrably less efficient system in place because health care is excessively expensive under that system.
With the government already spending about the same % of gdp on healthcare to cover a little over 30% of our population that other countries spend to cover all their people, our government already has demonstrated itself to be inefficient.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
. . . the worst case scenario for the GOP is for Obamacare to go through and be revealed to be a successful cost-saving health plan that doesn't entail creepy sock puppets going up your bum (*note to cross ponders: not hyperbole. The Koch bros actually put out an ad suggesting just that*).
Just in case you don't believe him, here are the ads:
For the ladies.
For the gents.
This represents a new low for issue ads. The message they're trying to get across here is to convince young people that medical care (not just medical insurance, medical care!) is invasive and gross and icky and they'd be better off without it.
[x-posted with Mere Nick, who verifies my point by reiterating how awful it would be for the American working poor to have access to health care.]
[ 02. October 2013, 00:32: Message edited by: Crœsos ]
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
It comes down to an unpopular law that was supposed to help fix our clusterbuggered health care system but many believe is, on the whole, making it worse.
So repeal the law.
That's what shits me about this particular aspect of the American system. To me and my law-based way of thinking, if you want to get rid of a law you repeal it. What you DON'T do is spend your time undermining a law you don't like when it's still on the books, in this kind of passive-aggressive fashion.
I've got no respect for individuals who decide that they don't want to follow a law they don't like and yet won't face up to the consequences of disobedience. And for the same reason, I've got no respect for 'legislators' who decide that they ought to try undercutting a law on the books while not actually doing anything to take the law OFF the books.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
It comes down to an unpopular law that was supposed to help fix our clusterbuggered health care system but many believe is, on the whole, making it worse.
So repeal the law.
That's what shits me about this particular aspect of the American system. To me and my law-based way of thinking, if you want to get rid of a law you repeal it. What you DON'T do is spend your time undermining a law you don't like when it's still on the books, in this kind of passive-aggressive fashion.
I've got no respect for individuals who decide that they don't want to follow a law they don't like and yet won't face up to the consequences of disobedience. And for the same reason, I've got no respect for 'legislators' who decide that they ought to try undercutting a law on the books while not actually doing anything to take the law OFF the books.
House Republicans have tried to repeal it literally dozens of times. Defunding it is the latest tactic now that repealing it has failed.
And they can't defund it, because they don't have the votes to do it. All they can do is hold up the government until they get what they want.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
It comes down to an unpopular law that was supposed to help fix our clusterbuggered health care system but many believe is, on the whole, making it worse.
So repeal the law.
That's what shits me about this particular aspect of the American system. To me and my law-based way of thinking, if you want to get rid of a law you repeal it. What you DON'T do is spend your time undermining a law you don't like when it's still on the books, in this kind of passive-aggressive fashion.
I've got no respect for individuals who decide that they don't want to follow a law they don't like and yet won't face up to the consequences of disobedience. And for the same reason, I've got no respect for 'legislators' who decide that they ought to try undercutting a law on the books while not actually doing anything to take the law OFF the books.
House Republicans have tried to repeal it literally dozens of times. Defunding it is the latest tactic now that repealing it has failed.
And they can't defund it, because they don't have the votes to do it. All they can do is hold up the government until they get what they want.
Yes, I'm aware they've failed. It seems to me that they're not aware they've failed, or refuse to accept it. They are the epitome of sore losers.
And that's what pisses me off. Losing a legitimate contest within the rules doesn't give you the right to adopt an underhand tactic instead.
If sportsmen and women decide that they can't win and fair and square and adopt a 'win at all costs' mentality, and cheat in some way, they get punished. Although some of their more one-eyed fans will celebrate a win wildly, no matter how wrong the methods used to achieve it.
Would that there were a simple and quick way to punish politicians when they cheat.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Healthy 27 years olds might be paying more, it's true-- being in one of the lowest risk categories, they are used to paying next to nothing, while those in the highest risk categories were paying 40 or 50% of their income... if they were able to purchase insurance at all. Now that it's shared risk, people like your daughter might indeed end up paying more-- even double if the previous rate was something incredibly cheap like $50/mo.
According to the Whitehouse she would be paying anywhere from $103 to $145 after tax credit, depending on the plan. I don't know what will be happening to teachers there, though, due to Obamacare and that's probably what she will be doing within the next year. She is paying a touch over $80 now.
quote:
Perhaps she can take comfort in knowing, though, that it won't get cancelled and/or hiked up when she gets sick or simply gets older-- which it surely would under the old system (as happened to me many, many times)
She may end up just dropping all coverage, paying the penalty and signing up only when she needs it. That appears to be a moral hazard built in to Obamacare.
I'm also concerned that one of my other daughters may get cut back to under 30 hours a week.
[ 02. October 2013, 01:09: Message edited by: Mere Nick ]
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
There is still, of course, hope. The rapture could happen.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by art dunce:
People are against it but don't even know what it is aside from the fact that it says "Obama". America is filled with idiots.
It seems I heard that before
"But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it . . ."
Nancy Pelosi
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
There is still, of course, hope. The rapture could happen.
That would sure make financial concerns a bit easier, wouldn't it?
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
To me and my law-based way of thinking, if you want to get rid of a law you repeal it.
We seem to repeal laws about as often as we cure genital herpes.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Healthy 27 years olds might be paying more, it's true-- being in one of the lowest risk categories, they are used to paying next to nothing, while those in the highest risk categories were paying 40 or 50% of their income... if they were able to purchase insurance at all. Now that it's shared risk, people like your daughter might indeed end up paying more-- even double if the previous rate was something incredibly cheap like $50/mo.
According to the Whitehouse she would be paying anywhere from $103 to $145 after tax credit, depending on the plan. I don't know what will be happening to teachers there, though, due to Obamacare and that's probably what she will be doing within the next year. She is paying a touch over $80 now.
And I get that taking a $20 or even $50 hit feels like a lot, especially when you frame it as "doubled". But my monthly health insurance premium is $1200. Yes, $1200- more than a third of my income. I'm guessing your daughter makes more than $300/month so she's still ahead of the game. And that kind of premium is not unusual for people of my age/ pre-existing conditions. And without Obamacare, that will be your daughter too-- either sooner (if she's unlucky enough to get sick) or later (if she simply grows old). If, of course, she doesn't become so inconveniently sick that she finds herself unable to get insurance at any price. So, while it is a rough transition-- we're making a huge paradigm shift here, it's going to be hard-- IMHO she oughta consider herself fortunate to have avoided a decade or more of $1000 premiums that rest of us have had to endure.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
Trying to get back off the subject of Obamacare and back onto the topic of the actual stand-off: I'm not so sure that the Republicans are actually expecting to have any success with their tactic to de-fund the ACA.
I think that they are feeling immense pressure from the tea-party and some talk-radio loudmouths to show a little 'backbone', and they're holding the government hostage simply to endear themselves to their 'conservative' base. I see the whole mess as grandstanding.
Does anyone think they actually have any chance at all of defunding Obamacare? Do you think they really think they can?
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
I think that they are feeling immense pressure from the tea-party and some talk-radio loudmouths to show a little 'backbone', and they're holding the government hostage simply to endear themselves to their 'conservative' base. I see the whole mess as grandstanding.
It's one of those collective action problems economists and sociologists are always going on about. It would be beneficial to the Republican party as a whole if the government were to go back to work, but it's enormously disadvantageous for any individual Republican to do anything to make that happen.
Short version: the Republican Congressional caucus has lost the internal discipline to function as a group.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I know someone says it during every crisis these days, but this might be the one to crack the GOP in two. A minority of republican representatives tried revolting last night, but failed.
Of course, the dang Hastert rule is getting in the way of a few republicans cooperating with House democrats.
[ 02. October 2013, 02:04: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
It would be nice to see the centrist Republicans split off, but it's unlikely to happen right now. There's too much attack pressure from the conservatives.
If Obama and the Democrat Senators stand firm, which I suspect will happen only as long as the polls support them, the Conservative Republicans are going to wait for the Debt Limit. If stopping the US economy isn't a big enough threat, taking out the World economy is bound to be better. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
Be Afraid.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
The other thing to consider is that Congresscritters are elected very locally, from gerrymandered districts, and, for the most part, really are representing the interests and desires of their constituents. There are people I know rooting for Ted Cruz and the House Tea Party caucus to stay firm and fight the immoral socialist law that is Obamacare, the greatest threat to our freedom since Hitler.
No, seriously. I know the Tea Party is a bit mystifying to those of you who live in other countries; I might as well have taken this from family members' facebook stati (statuses?). While people hate Congress, they love their representative; after all, they voted for 'em!
And so, the half of the country that believes in the Jeffersonian ideal of unregulated independent small farmers faces off with the half that sees America as a postindustrial liberal democracy—and neither side is willing to compromise on what are their core beliefs. Health care coverage isn't of much use on the frontier, but guns are—and, before you say that this is ridiculous, remember that this is America's founding mythos, part of what is very much essential to our shared common ethos. To have to surrender any part of your individual property or freedom to make your own way, your own decisions, is tantamount to abandoning the American ideal.
Thus, while these two irreconcilable visions of America face off with potentially disastrous consequences for the world (there's talk in the Post that this will likely last until the US faces default on its debt...or perhaps beyond, since parts of the Tea Party see nothing wrong with America defaulting on its debts; maybe it'll teach us fiscal responsibility!), my friends wonder how they're going to pay their student loans with their contractor schedules being cut back and alternate funding sources their agencies secured separate from appropriations dry up. Contrary to popular belief, federal workers in DC are people, not all of them are "Boomtown" rich folks with money to spare, and the schadenfreude of the Tea Party at seeing government workers and contractors furloughed and forced to take unpaid leave during the shutdown in the name of "sharing the pain" and "now you know what the rest of the country feels like" is less than completely charitable.
[ 02. October 2013, 06:13: Message edited by: Ariston ]
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Croesus: quote:
The message they're trying to get across here is to convince young people that medical care (not just medical insurance, medical care!) is invasive and gross and icky and they'd be better off without it.
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
It's like watching a bunch of lemmings heading towards a cliff...
Oh, and what Orfeo said.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
You know, back in the 1990s a colleague of mine was pontificating on what would happen to the global economy if a nation defaulted on his debts. He thought we were on the brink of meltdown.
He wasn't expecting it to be triggered by the US though. He thought Brazil was about to default on its debts.
And here we are, 30 years later...
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Aren't those who argue about the merits of Obamacare or the geography of congressional districts, though, implicitly accepting that there might be other occasions when this might be an acceptable way to behave.
Could it ever be legitimate for a clique of politicians to pull the rug from under their own government, so that its functions suddenly seize up? Is there something wrong with the structures of the polity that enables this to happen? Shouldn't it be possible to design things so that come what may, whatever the monkeys in Halitosis Hall get up to, the day to day running of government carries on regardless until they've sorted themselves out?
Incidentally, for shipmates in London, does this mean the US embassy is closed?
And for US citizens, bearing in mind the constitution does not allow ex post facto legislation, does that means everybody's federal taxes go down by 1/365th for each day this idiocy continues? If not, why not?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
And for US citizens, bearing in mind the constitution does not allow ex post facto legislation, does that means everybody's federal taxes go down by 1/365th for each day this idiocy continues? If not, why not?
No, because the laws that establish the tax regime are separate from the laws that determine appropriations (spending), and it's the latter that have run out of authority, not the former.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Aren't those who argue about the merits of Obamacare or the geography of congressional districts, though, implicitly accepting that there might be other occasions when this might be an acceptable way to behave.
Could it ever be legitimate for a clique of politicians to pull the rug from under their own government, so that its functions suddenly seize up?
For sure. If there is a bad government then it is the duty of the opposition to do what is necessary to bring it down and allow fresh elections to take place. The problem here is that the US Constitution is not fit for purpose - among its many shortcomings you can count the fact it's a compromise between an ideological statement and a functional constitution that doesn't do either job properly, as seen by it not containing any procedures for how to resolve a dysfunctional legislature/executive situation.
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Is there something wrong with the structures of the polity that enables this to happen? Shouldn't it be possible to design things so that come what may, whatever the monkeys in Halitosis Hall get up to, the day to day running of government carries on regardless until they've sorted themselves out?
Definitely major problems here, not that the structures allow it to happen but that they don't provide for a 'nuclear option' of forcing a resolution to it (a fresh election for the House, full Senate and Presidency in 60 days with an emergency budget measure in the interim period) if the various participants can't voluntarily solve it. As shown by the 1975 Dismissal in Australia it would be very ugly and act as a warning to future politicians to not go that far again, but it would work.
It would all go away if Obama was a Prime Minister instead of a President (i.e. only the head of government, not the head of state as well) and was able to go to the Head of State and advise them to dissolve the Congress so snap elections could be held. Such a Head of State would need to be completely independent of the US political process, and as shown by even the US Supreme Court being divided on party lines it would probably need to be somebody outside the country to act as an independent arbiter.
I would suggest the ideal person to do it would be some person used to fulfilling that role, maybe Her Majesty Elizabeth II who is accustomed to acting in that role for the 16 Commonwealth Realms. She could maybe authorise a representative, let's call them the Governor-General maybe, to discharge that responsibility in the USA at times when the monarch isn't present in person.
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Incidentally, for shipmates in London, does this mean the US embassy is closed?
The ABC has reported here in Australia that consular services are regarded as "essential" so embassies and consulates stay open.
I wonder if the NSA is closed? Is it safe to say rude words on the internet at the moment?
It does make you wonder though, is there more broken under the surface than you might think if the government's operations can be divided up into essential and non-essential. Shouldn't governments be doing only the essential stuff all the time?
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
And for US citizens, bearing in mind the constitution does not allow ex post facto legislation, does that means everybody's federal taxes go down by 1/365th for each day this idiocy continues? If not, why not?
The definition of wishful thinking for sure! Even ignoring the fact that lots of the "essential" government operations are still carrying on and will need to be paid for eventually, aren't taxes calculated on a yearly basis rather than a daily rate?
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Does it mean that the GOP has already lost in 2016?
From your mouth to God's ear!
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
If we are going to do this, give it to everyone with both barrels. The exact same rules for everyone with no exemptions and no subsidies.
...which would entirely defeat the purpose of getting health care to everyone...
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
and as shown by even the US Supreme Court being divided on party lines
I hadn't thought about this aspect, that the judiciary is also highly politicised. Not that anyone has asked them to become involved yet, but if they DO somehow become involved it could become an issue.
Mind you, they survived Bush v Gore...
[ 02. October 2013, 12:30: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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marzipan
Shipmate
# 9442
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Posted
Do Congress members count as non-essential employees? Would stopping their pay till they come to an agreement have any effect?
(whether they are working or not...)
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formerly cheesymarzipan.
Now containing 50% less cheese
Posts: 917 | From: nowhere in particular | Registered: May 2005
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cheesymarzipan:
Do Congress members count as non-essential employees? Would stopping their pay till they come to an agreement have any effect?
(whether they are working or not...)
As it so happens, they still get paid. It is a Constitutional thing. Even if they wanted to forego it (to show that they are one with the common pee-pul) they legally can't. Because it looks bad that they keep getting paid, some vow that, during the shutdown, they will contribute their pay to charity. Which, of course, will make for a nice deduction come tax time.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
From one report -
"There were crowds of furloughed federal workers outside nearly every government building; some emerged clutching pot plants, unaware how long they would be locked out."
Glad to hear the pot plants will be OK!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
There are also some members of Congress who say they'll have their pay "delayed".
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Boogie--
FYI: here, we say "potted plants" or "indoor plants". "Pot" plants are marijuana. That's illegal, on a federal level, so it would be quite a sight if they came running out with pot plants!
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif) ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cheesymarzipan:
Do Congress members count as non-essential employees? Would stopping their pay till they come to an agreement have any effect?
(whether they are working or not...)
Is there any doubt in anyone's mind about whether Congress is working?
I must admit I'm impressed by one aspect of the Tea Party: they didn't break out to form a new party, recognizing that this would strip them of any power. Instead, they've hijacked a party that already has -- or at least had -- power.
I'm beginning to wonder what would happen if a small group of truly left-wing Democrats* similarly hijacked the Democrats. Would this make matters even worse, or might it shift the House, the Senate, or both out of their current paralysis?
*Not that I'm persuaded there's more than 2 of these in existence who also hold elective office. Where's Dennis Kucinich when you need him?
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Boogie--
FYI: here, we say "potted plants" or "indoor plants". "Pot" plants are marijuana. That's illegal, on a federal level, so it would be quite a sight if they came running out with pot plants!
No doubt they had those ones under their jumpers!
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Ariston: And so, the half of the country that believes in the Jeffersonian ideal of unregulated independent small farmers faces off with the half that sees America as a postindustrial liberal democracy—and neither side is willing to compromise on what are their core beliefs.
Dutch writer Geert Mak wrote a couple of years ago (I'm quoting from memory): the great cultural divide in the world isn't between the West and the Islamic world, it isn't between the North and the South, it's between the rural areas and the cities.
I tend to agree with him. I have the feeling that this cultural divide is being played out in an astonishingly strong way in the US though, much stronger than in other countries.
One explanation I can come up with (based on nothing more than my own sociological musings) is that maybe the US didn't have a strong exodus from the inland to the cities like for example Brazil had in the 80s and 90s, so that there are less families in the US that have members both in rural areas and in cities.
quote:
Jane R: You know, back in the 1990s a colleague of mine was pontificating on what would happen to the global economy if a nation defaulted on his debts. He thought we were on the brink of meltdown.
He wasn't expecting it to be triggered by the US though. He thought Brazil was about to default on its debts.
And here we are, 30 years later...
I think President Dilma Rousseff has already said: "If the US needs money, they can borrow it from us." ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
To be honest though, Brazil was on the brink of defaulting in 1998.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
It does make you wonder though, is there more broken under the surface than you might think if the government's operations can be divided up into essential and non-essential. Shouldn't governments be doing only the essential stuff all the time?
Given that SNAP & WIC (food stamps & aid to pregnant women & children) are shut down, it would seem that "essential" = benefits the wealthy/ powerful. Feeding starving children is one of those nice feel-good extras that are fun to do at Xmas, as long as it doesn't get in the way of the really important stuff, but easy to set aside if that new cashmere sweater ends up costing more than anticipated.
[ 02. October 2013, 13:34: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Boogie--
FYI: here, we say "potted plants" or "indoor plants". "Pot" plants are marijuana. That's illegal, on a federal level, so it would be quite a sight if they came running out with pot plants!
I'm not sure about DC, but in many states medical marijuana is legal. And if you're a federal employee having to deal with the economic chaos of this s**t every few months, I would suggest that you need a bit of medicinal weed just about as much as anyone.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
cliffdweller--
Yes, but it's only legal on a state basis, whether medically or more broadly. Still illegal, federally. So the Feds have raided state-licensed medical pot dispensaries, growers, etc. Lots of tension.
And yes, the poor gov't employees in the shutdown probably need self-medication and comfort. Might be more useful, though, to get the Republicans in Congress to smoke some joints!*
*I don't support drug use (though I think it should be legalized). But the country is at stake, and those folks really need to mellow out!
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
It would all go away if Obama was a Prime Minister instead of a President (i.e. only the head of government, not the head of state as well) and was able to go to the Head of State and advise them to dissolve the Congress so snap elections could be held. Such a Head of State would need to be completely independent of the US political process, and as shown by even the US Supreme Court being divided on party lines it would probably need to be somebody outside the country to act as an independent arbiter.
Giving someone the power to dissolve the legislature makes them part of the political process, not independent of it. And you'd simply be moving the problem to a different political actor. Instead of Congress' intransigence leading to a government shutdown, you'd simply put that power in someone else's hands. This "solution" also seems to depend on the somewhat dubious assumption that a freshly elected U.S. Congress would not be divided along similar lines as the current one.
quote:
Originally posted by cheesymarzipan:
Do Congress members count as non-essential employees? Would stopping their pay till they come to an agreement have any effect?
(whether they are working or not...)
A CNN reported asked a couple Representatives that very question (or rather, whether they'd be willing to sign off on designating themselves as "non-essential" for the purposes of future shutdowns). Their efforts to avoid answering that question directly were amusing.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Boogie--
FYI: here, we say "potted plants" or "indoor plants". "Pot" plants are marijuana. That's illegal, on a federal level, so it would be quite a sight if they came running out with pot plants!
I'm not sure about DC, but in many states medical marijuana is legal. And if you're a federal employee having to deal with the economic chaos of this s**t every few months, I would suggest that you need a bit of medicinal weed just about as much as anyone.
*sigh* Quick tangent—yes, it is legal in DC, but not on a federal level, and it was a real legislative shitstorm to get it approved, because all DC laws have to be approved by Congress. Ditto the DC budget. Oh, and only "essential" DC personnel can be on the job during a shutdown, since the District's budget has to be approved in the appropriations process by Congress—nevermind that it's city money. So, in theory, that should mean no trash pickup, close schools, shut down the community health clinics...unless the mayor and city council decide to call all city personnel essential, as they did. Welcome to the City of Washington, where the Constitution says we're under congressional control.
As for those of you hoping for this to blow up for the Republicans in 2014/2016: don't hold your breath. If anything, this'll only make them look better in the eyes of their constituents. Ted Cruz is proving that he's doing what he was elected to do—stop Obamacare, end government intrusion into your lives, and roll back the nanny state—and will probably put this in every campaign ad from here until he runs for President.
Oh don't laugh. He's got higher aspirations than just the Senate, and everybody knows it.
So why would this reflect badly on the Republicans, except with those who don't elect them and, therefore, can't vote them out of office? If you're from very Republican Oklahoma, you probably want to vote Maryland's very Democratic congressional delegation out of Congress, since they're the source of The Problem, and vice-versa; problem is, neither side can do anything about the other's representatives.
As for just dissolving parliament and holding new elections until something sticks: be careful what you wish for. I'd like you to think about what that would mean for people in closely fought and highly gerrymandered districts, or in heavily Republican-leaning ones. That's right: a primary challenge funded by Club for Growth/Freedomworks/the Koch Brothers. Those with money to throw around would continue to use it to recruit ideologically pure candidates with no previous political experience, give them millions to get elected, and keep doing it each time a new election was called. While Obama and the Democrats can mobilize small donations once, I'd put my bets on the organization bankrolled by the bankers and plutocrats to win out in a war of attrition that repeated elections would produce.
And LeRoc: it's not so much an actual rural/urban split, as a perceived one; even Texas, which has as much of an "everything's bigger here" wide-open sky rural mythos as anywhere else, is home to four (or five, depending on how you count Dallas/Ft. Worth) of the fifty largest metro areas in America. Even if you live in an urban area of more than a million people, you still remain true to your rural roots, thinking of yourself as a country boy/girl at heart—no matter that nobody in your family has farmed or ranched since at least your grandparents. It holds even for people who were transplanted 80 years ago during the Depression; the descendants of migrant Okie farmworkers in California tend to be more conservative than Californians as a whole, still thinking of themselves as tough farmers who weathered the Depression through their own fortitude and sticking together with their neighbors. It's more the power of fundamental myth than any seemingly objective reality.
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
I heard one comment this morning that it was assumed there would be goodwill between parties. So as soon as that assumption is proved false, the strict adherence to the constitution is left floundering.
I'm no expert in US history but I'm pretty sure that that assumption broke down within the lifetime of Thomas Jefferson. And not long after than they had a rather bloody civil war. They are probably rather better at co-operating now than their great-great-great-great-grand-congressfathers were a century and a half ago.
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
It's almost as though they enjoy playing this game!
I'm sure they do. Its probably fun. It would be fun to watch as well, if there wasn;t the possibility of everything going totally pear-shaped (*). And I'm pretty sure every single one of them will have watched the relevant episodes of The West Wing. And their aides and assistants and speechwriters probably know the scripts off by heart.
(*) Actually if it all goes totally over the top the chances are the Republicans will go the way of the Whigs and the Tories, so that might not be such a bad idea...
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
... I'm not a big fan of the ACA, and regard it as a giant gimme for insurance companies (we should be dismantling them and introducing single-payer health care in this country, not enabling their parasitic and sleazy asses)...
That was sort of the idea before the Republicans got their hands on it and the Democrats caved it. Right now they are threatening to pull down the pillars of the temple to get rid of a law they partly wrote themselves (kind of literally - there is more of Mitt Romney's old platform in this than there is of the health plan the Clintons failed to get through).
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Your argument essentially amounts to leaving the present, demonstrably less efficient system in place because health care is excessively expensive under that system.
With the government already spending about the same % of gdp on healthcare to cover a little over 30% of our population that other countries spend to cover all their people, our government already has demonstrated itself to be inefficient.
That's mostly because it pays lots of that money to grossly inefficient private medical providers and insurance companies and drug companies. Who charge you more than they charge pretty much anyone else because the decisions that you make about healthcare in your country are made by those vey companies.
And, to be fair, its also partly because you pay a huge amount of government money on meical research, which is mostly a Good Thing.
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Given that SNAP & WIC (food stamps & aid to pregnant women & children) are shut down, it would seem that "essential" = benefits the wealthy/ powerful. Feeding starving children is one of those nice feel-good extras that are fun to do at Xmas, as long as it doesn't get in the way of the really important stuff, but easy to set aside if that new cashmere sweater ends up costing more than anticipated.
If people start really starving, they can get angry. If a large number of people are starving they can get angry together. If this goes on too long those Congresspersons had better be careful where they go.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
As for those of you hoping for this to blow up for the Republicans in 2014/2016: don't hold your breath. If anything, this'll only make them look better in the eyes of their constituents. Ted Cruz is proving that he's doing what he was elected to do—stop Obamacare, end government intrusion into your lives, and roll back the nanny state—and will probably put this in every campaign ad from here until he runs for President.
Oh don't laugh. He's got higher aspirations than just the Senate, and everybody knows it.
So why would this reflect badly on the Republicans, except with those who don't elect them and, therefore, can't vote them out of office? If you're from very Republican Oklahoma, you probably want to vote Maryland's very Democratic congressional delegation out of Congress, since they're the source of The Problem, and vice-versa; problem is, neither side can do anything about the other's representatives.
I may be just an optimist, but my hope is that this will sway independents to be disgusted with the Republican party. This won't affect any Tea Party congresscritters who are safe in their seats, but any who just barely made it, and anyone who wants independents to help them become president...
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
As for those of you hoping for this to blow up for the Republicans in 2014/2016: don't hold your breath. If anything, this'll only make them look better in the eyes of their constituents. Ted Cruz is proving that he's doing what he was elected to do—stop Obamacare, end government intrusion into your lives, and roll back the nanny state—and will probably put this in every campaign ad from here until he runs for President.
Oh don't laugh. He's got higher aspirations than just the Senate, and everybody knows it.
So why would this reflect badly on the Republicans, except with those who don't elect them and, therefore, can't vote them out of office? If you're from very Republican Oklahoma, you probably want to vote Maryland's very Democratic congressional delegation out of Congress, since they're the source of The Problem, and vice-versa; problem is, neither side can do anything about the other's representatives.
I may be just an optimist, but my hope is that this will sway independents to be disgusted with the Republican party. This won't affect any Tea Party congresscritters who are safe in their seats, but any who just barely made it, and anyone who wants independents to help them become president...
These guys aren't from districts with swing votes, alas. They are, indeed, from the most overwhelmingly conservative districts in the nation. Moderate republicans, on the other hand, are already an endangered species.
This might very well expand the democratic majority in the Senate and help democratic presidential candidates, but the house is probably going to be mired in crisis until the next census in 2020, when districts are redrawn.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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