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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Does a vague resemblance to something bad matter ?
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
BBC story about Manchester United FC logo
I am a bit at a loss as to why people complained about this or why Manchester United felt the need to apologise unreservedly. It's clearly not meant to be a swastika, so does it matter if it slightly resembles one ?
[ 10. January 2014, 21:12: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Posts: 2210 | From: london | Registered: Aug 2006
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
I just had a look at it. As you say, the resemblance to a swastika isn't eye-wateringly obvious, though it is there. But placing it alongside a headline which reads 'New Order'? You cannot convince me that there is anything unintended about this. It's absolutely inconceivable to me that a marketing team came up with this and didn't notice the undertones. It's entirely possible they were in fact intentional, to garner publicity - and if the publicity comes in the form of apologising for unintended offence in seventy daily papers and however many news broadcasting services you have over there - well great. It's not only effective, it's cheaper than actual advertising. Hell, even I've heard about it now, and I'm on the other side of the world...
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I'm with anoesis - the combination of the two makes the whole thing look definitively extreme-right-wing. Yes, it might have been an oversight, but it is a serious oversight to miss the significance. Which makes me think it was not an oversight.
And yes, it does not completely look like a swastika on its own, context is important. We interpret what we see in context. We see patterns even when they are not definitively there (which is why we see faces when there aren't faces.)
Communication is important, and it is done by far more than just the words used. the context, the imagery, the media are all important too. They all make the communication.
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Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Although a bright young designer, probably under 30, ought to know what a swastika was, that logo doesn't look much like one. I think he or she would be much less likely now to know the phrase 'New Order' had any connection with the Nazis, and I don't think it's any longer reasonable to expect them to. 1945 is 68 years ago. There's no reason why things that resonate for my generation, should do so for today's youngsters.
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Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
Do bright young designers get to skip history in school?
Also, the coloring of the logo contributes to the resemblance. If the thing had been done in shades of blue & white, there might have been less concern.
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Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
Do bright young designers get to skip history in school?
Also, the coloring of the logo contributes to the resemblance. If the thing had been done in shades of blue & white, there might have been less concern.
Agreed. For me the black and red is what makes it look more distinctly swastika-ish. And certainly modern history lessons are so focused on Germany from WWI-WWII (to the extent that medieval and early modern history gets rather ignored) that I would be very surprised if 'New Order' didn't have resonance for them.
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Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
Well, I did history up to GCSE, meaning that Nazi Germany featured quite prominently, and I thought I was quite well-informed about history, but I have never associated the phrase New Order with the Nazis.
If anything the phrase suggests to me either some vaguely Masonic conspiracy theory, or else Novus Ordo as in Vatican II, but the latter is probably due to over-exposure to the Ship.
Wikipedia thinks it refers to a 1980s rock band, without even a disambiguation page or header.
As for Red and Black, they're kind of Man Utd's colours, so no ulterior motive needed.
Also, wouldn't some of these guys discourage Nazis from supporting Man Utd?
[ 27. October 2013, 22:15: Message edited by: Ricardus ]
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I have never heard the phrase 'New Order' in connection with nazism. I have searched for the German Neue Ordnung, but didn't come up with much. I understand that there was an Italian right-extremist movement Ordine Nuovo, founded some time after WWII, but that wasn't on my radar. Upon seeing the phrase 'New Order', I wouldn't associate it with nazism/fascism.
[ETA: The phrase Neue Weltordnung ('New World Order') exists in German, but that is mostly associated with the US hegemony at the end of the 20th Century.]
[ 27. October 2013, 23:03: Message edited by: LeRoc ]
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Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
I doubt that it's the specific phrase "new order;" it's more the concept behind it, with the Nazis claiming to establish world dominance under their rule. "New World Order" has that ring about it, too.
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Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Wikipedia thinks it refers to a 1980s rock band, without even a disambiguation page or header.
As for Red and Black, they're kind of Man Utd's colours, so no ulterior motive needed.
This. In fact New Order weren't just a 1980s band, they were a Salford band who played a key role in defining the Manchester music scene of the mid 1980s. They're still essential listening for anybody who wants to know about British music of that period.
And yes, red and black are Manchester Utd's colours. And yes, the logo looks nothing like a swastika - it's very obviously the letters MUFC arranged in a square-ish pattern.
It's possible someone is trying to cause trouble for Man Utd - they're very popular, which means they're also very unpopular. But as someone said (Theodore Adorno? Maybe not?), the meaning of a communication is the response it gets. So maybe someone needs to go back to whatever people use instead of drawing boards these days.
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Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
There does seem to be a prominent association of the phrase with Nazism.
I guess that if you asked me "Does new order associated with Nazism" I would have said "possibly/probably". But if you asked me in a non-leading way "What does new order make you think of" I think I'd be with adeodatus in remembering music before politics.
[ 28. October 2013, 09:01: Message edited by: mdijon ]
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Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
I'm no apologist for Man Utd, but this bullshit actually makes me feel sympathy for them. What a bag of crap.
1 - it looks absolutely nothing like a swastika. I had to really concentrate to see any such resemblance, and that was after I'd been told about it.
2 - "New Order" is a phrase with Nazi overtones? Rubbish. Utter rubbish.
3 - What's next? If a future newsletter has a feature on Antonio Valencia will the offenderati be up in arms because it uses the phrase "right wing" to describe the position he plays? Or maybe someone will work up some indignation against Newcastle Utd because they play in black shirts - a blatantly fascist motif?
Honestly, what's wrong with these people?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
The swastika - shastikia - may have been used by Hitler, but is an ancient symbol of peace used in Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I'm no apologist for Man Utd, but this bullshit actually makes me feel sympathy for them. What a bag of crap.
1 - it looks absolutely nothing like a swastika. I had to really concentrate to see any such resemblance, and that was after I'd been told about it.
2 - "New Order" is a phrase with Nazi overtones? Rubbish. Utter rubbish.
3 - What's next? If a future newsletter has a feature on Antonio Valencia will the offenderati be up in arms because it uses the phrase "right wing" to describe the position he plays? Or maybe someone will work up some indignation against Newcastle Utd because they play in black shirts - a blatantly fascist motif?
Honestly, what's wrong with these people?
1. A swastika was the first thing I thought of when I saw it. It looks very much like one, particularly because of the colours used.
2. I believe mdijon has answered you there.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Jonah the Whale
Ship's pet cetacean
# 1244
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
1. A swastika was the first thing I thought of when I saw it. It looks very much like one, particularly because of the colours used.
2. I believe mdijon has answered you there.
I agree entirely with JC on both these points. A Google image search for MUFC logo comes up with the normal club badge. Why did they come up with the idea of not using this? I am sure they don't have links with nazism, but I do find it a crass way to get publicity, as if they needed any.
ETA Of course there is no way round using those colours, they are the club colours.
[ 28. October 2013, 10:05: Message edited by: Jonah the Whale ]
Posts: 2799 | From: Nether Regions | Registered: Aug 2001
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
That absolutely screams swastika to me. I'm not saying that it's intentional, but with the amount of money they can throw at this it's stunning that nobody pointed it out - I'd have thought that experienced designers check these things all over for any unwanted implications like this.
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Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
No, nothing like a swastika - the colours and the angle of the blocks is probably what people are seeing and then putting an incorrect interpretation on.
In any case, the swastika was around long before the Nazis. Fact is, at the end of the 19th century it was a very popular design for young ladies to produce in lace to edge tablecloths for their hope chest - I know, I've got one: made for a wedding in 1903 with a magnificent deep edge border, fantastic linen, no stains. I can't use it because the lace is a double (!) row of swastikas ...
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Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
1. A swastika was the first thing I thought of when I saw it. It looks very much like one, particularly because of the colours used.
The colours are thoise of Man Utd - they play in red shirts and black shorts. Should that mean they should be banned from using any imagery featuring angular diamond shapes in case someone mistakes it for a swastika?
quote:
2. I believe mdijon has answered you there.
I didn't say they never once said the phrase in question - I denied that it had specific connections to and connotations of Nazism. I'd imagine virtually every political movement has used it at one time or another. The Labour Party certainly has. Those fascist Nazi bastards.
I honestly do not understand this. What exactly are you really comnplaining about - are you suggesting that Manchester United are engaging in a covert plot to convert their fans into Nazis or something? Or that by forming a logo out of their club's initials and colours and using it with an article about their new young players that happens to be headlined "the new order" they are somehow promoting fascism? Help me out here, what's the fucking problem?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
In any case, the swastika was around long before the Nazis.
Probably most widely imported to the UK from India. Although the swastika in India was the other way round and had dots. I'm not sure why the Nazis wanted to change it. Or why it has the "a" on the end - the Hindi word is pronounced "swastik"
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Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
It seems that it looks more like a swastika to some of us than others. I often start at the end of Purg thread until I find where I last read, so I can't say whether it would have looked like a swastika to me, but having seen Jade's comment first BOY does it STRONGLY resemble that to me.
In my job I work on a team where we make sure at least five in-house people read everything we produce on a regular basis, and that's for a comparatively minor piece of writing. I suspect the main mistake Manchester Utd made was to not have enough people review the logo. Anything that important should be looked at by quite a few people.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
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If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
... black shorts...
Oh no! It's true, then!
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
It seems that it looks more like a swastika to some of us than others. I often start at the end of Purg thread until I find where I last read, so I can't say whether it would have looked like a swastika to me, but having seen Jade's comment first BOY does it STRONGLY resemble that to me.
In my job I work on a team where we make sure at least five in-house people read everything we produce on a regular basis, and that's for a comparatively minor piece of writing. I suspect the main mistake Manchester Utd made was to not have enough people review the logo. Anything that important should be looked at by quite a few people.
I think you're right, it certainly seems to be in the eye of the beholder. It doesn't look much like a swastika to me. And I've never ever heard the words 'New Order' in relation to Nazis, so count me as another person who evidently never did history at school.
For me the first thing New Order said (in fact shouted) was the band, and if anything, the logo reminded me vaguely of the red hot chilli peppers logo, so music again.
Given that there seem to be a lot of people here who, like me, wouldn't have noticed any Nazi link, I think anoesis's suggestion that it was somehow intentional is rather conspiracy-theorist. I think it was probably just the case that not enough people checked it to spot the link, and given that the Manchester / New Order (the band) link was intentional, any Nazi undertones would have been harder to spot.
So yeah, vague, unintended Nazi link, but of course once it's been pointed out, the club would have to apologise (organisations are always having to 'apologise' and it's often fairly meaningless). Storm in a teacup, as far as I'm concerned.
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Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
What Marvin, Adeodatus and Enoch said; I've always associated the words "New Order" with the Manchester/ Salford band and never come across this term in the context of the Nazis.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
but of course once it's been pointed out, the club would have to apologise
That's one of the most depressing parts of the whole story for me. A bunch of panty-wetting halfwits concoct a bullshit offence and no matter who their target is, it inevitably backs down and says sorry even though it's done nothing wrong.
I'd love, just once, for some organisation, club, company or whatever to react to this sort of manufactured outrage by issuing a statement saying "grow up and get the fuck over yourselves". This modern vogue for kowtowing to every claim of being offended, regardless of merit, is ridiculous. Being offended doesn't automatically make you right.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
1. A swastika was the first thing I thought of when I saw it. It looks very much like one, particularly because of the colours used.
The colours are thoise of Man Utd - they play in red shirts and black shorts. Should that mean they should be banned from using any imagery featuring angular diamond shapes in case someone mistakes it for a swastika?
quote:
2. I believe mdijon has answered you there.
I didn't say they never once said the phrase in question - I denied that it had specific connections to and connotations of Nazism. I'd imagine virtually every political movement has used it at one time or another. The Labour Party certainly has. Those fascist Nazi bastards.
I honestly do not understand this. What exactly are you really comnplaining about - are you suggesting that Manchester United are engaging in a covert plot to convert their fans into Nazis or something? Or that by forming a logo out of their club's initials and colours and using it with an article about their new young players that happens to be headlined "the new order" they are somehow promoting fascism? Help me out here, what's the fucking problem?
I don't think it's intentional at all - just an unfortunate mistake. But it's certainly an inappropriate logo, and from the sounds of things MUFC are taking action over it. Problem solved. I was just commenting on how it really does look like a swastika to me.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
But it's certainly an inappropriate logo
Why? Because a few people happen to see a tenuous resemblance between it and a swastika?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
... black shorts...
Oh no! It's true, then!
And referees at their matches wear black shirts!
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Felafool
Shipmate
# 270
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Posted
Matt Black posted:
quote:
And referees at their matches wear black shirts!
Not often these days...more like day-glo orange or lemon! What does that make them?
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Posts: 265 | Registered: May 2001
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Gwai
It seems that it looks more like a swastika to some of us than others.
I see that, but what I don't get is why it really matters if it does remind some people of a swastika, as long as it is clear that it's not one. Surely the power of symbols, whether for good or ill, lies in the associated ideology not in the shape itself.
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
Posts: 2210 | From: london | Registered: Aug 2006
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Felafool:
Matt Black posted:
quote:
And referees at their matches wear black shirts!
Not often these days...more like day-glo orange or lemon! What does that make them?
Pah! Somehow, "Who's the bastard in the day-glo orange" doesn't sound so menacing.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
But it's certainly an inappropriate logo
Why? Because a few people happen to see a tenuous resemblance between it and a swastika?
It matters for the same reason the unintentionally offensive thread title "Strange fruit" here on the Ship mattered -- people who saw the thread title and could think only of this and this couldn't read it as a funny thread about weird stuff people eat. "Strange fruit" is a powerfully evocative phrase. Even though it was clear that the person who created that thread knew nothing about the history of lynchings in the US, that's what the word evoked for very many of your US shipmates. You can't turn that association off, even if you want to. You can understand that no harm was meant, but you can't avoid a visceral response every time you see it. I suppose you could, over time, create a new association with the phrase, but it would take a LOT of time. And that hasn't been done yet, so this is what the phrase evokes. If you're not trying to upset people, you don't use that phrase, and if you are a decent human being, and you honestly didn't know how people would react to it, you apologize for the reaction that you inadvertently provoked.
Just as that is true about the expression "strange fruit" (and about any juxtaposition at all of a noose with a black person), it's true of swastikas, and anything else that evokes Nazism. If your allusion was innocent and unintended, you would still be horrified at having inadvertently conjured up those thoughts and images for people.
There's a reason that our local Shakespeare theater company changed the black character to a clown when they did Titus Andronicus a few years back. The character is hanged, and they didn't want the play to be about lynchings in America. They didn't say, "Well it's Shakespeare, get over it." They understood the power of words and images. They chose not to allow unintended associations to mar their play.
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Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
What Marvin, Adeodatus and Enoch said; I've always associated the words "New Order" with the Manchester/ Salford band and never come across this term in the context of the Nazis.
Maybe this is a pond thing. On this side of the world, failing to recognize "new order" as a Nazi catch-phrase would raise howls of indignation at the school system -- rather like those that go up when California kids can't find California on a map of the US. But, given the large number of Purgatorians who find this obscure, perhaps it is regional in its association.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
But, given the large number of Purgatorians who find this obscure, perhaps it is regional in its association.
A most charitable conclusion.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
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Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
But it's certainly an inappropriate logo
Why? Because a few people happen to see a tenuous resemblance between it and a swastika?
I'd say it's clearly inappropriate, because no football club would want their logo associated with a swastika and that logo has caused everyone to discuss swastikas in association with Man Utd. Definitely not what they wanted, so bad logo. Not evil, or a moral failing of anyone, IMO. If I were them I'd apologize because they didn't wish to upset people, but I don't think anyone who didn't approve that logo owes anyone an apology, and the people who did approve the logo owe the organization an apology for not foreseeing it. Because that is part of one's job when looking at a design--will it have any unfortunate connotations or side effects that the organization would not want?
[ 28. October 2013, 12:45: Message edited by: Gwai ]
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Maybe this is a pond thing. On this side of the world, failing to recognize "new order" as a Nazi catch-phrase would raise howls of indignation at the school system -- rather like those that go up when California kids can't find California on a map of the US. But, given the large number of Purgatorians who find this obscure, perhaps it is regional in its association.
I was a child during World War 2, and I vividly remember the phrase 'New Order'. The logo's resemblance to a swastika might not have occurred to me without the conjunction with the phrase.
The combination is very unfortunate.
Moo
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Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Earwig
Pincered Beastie
# 12057
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
but of course once it's been pointed out, the club would have to apologise
That's one of the most depressing parts of the whole story for me. A bunch of panty-wetting halfwits concoct a bullshit offence and no matter who their target is, it inevitably backs down and says sorry even though it's done nothing wrong.
I'd love, just once, for some organisation, club, company or whatever to react to this sort of manufactured outrage by issuing a statement saying "grow up and get the fuck over yourselves". This modern vogue for kowtowing to every claim of being offended, regardless of merit, is ridiculous. Being offended doesn't automatically make you right.
Not sure it's that much of a conflict, in this instance. If I'd designed something that made a bunch of people say "Wow! That looks a bit Nazi!" I would be horrified and want to pull it.
Posts: 3120 | From: Yorkshire | Registered: Nov 2006
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EtymologicalEvangelical
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# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian
I'm no apologist for Man Utd, but this bullshit actually makes me feel sympathy for them. What a bag of crap.
1 - it looks absolutely nothing like a swastika. I had to really concentrate to see any such resemblance, and that was after I'd been told about it.
2 - "New Order" is a phrase with Nazi overtones? Rubbish. Utter rubbish.
3 - What's next? If a future newsletter has a feature on Antonio Valencia will the offenderati be up in arms because it uses the phrase "right wing" to describe the position he plays? Or maybe someone will work up some indignation against Newcastle Utd because they play in black shirts - a blatantly fascist motif?
Honestly, what's wrong with these people?
You are absolutely right.
It makes not a scrap of difference whether this design looks like a swastika in some people's vivid and overactive imaginations. The fact is: it is not a swastika. And the phrase "New Order" is not exclusively associated with the Nazis. In fact, if someone used that phrase without any context whatsoever, I would not immediately associate it with the Nazis, but rather with all the paranoid conspiracy crap about the Illuminati etc, that infects the internet.
Actually I am deeply offended by Manchester United's devil badge, because in my precious opinion it sooooo obviously promotes Satanism!! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
(Love from a mischievous City fan... ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif) ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif) )
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
The question here is not whether these guys are Nazis. I don't think anyone seriously believes that. And I guess they probably do have the moral right to say "fuck you and your overactive imaginations. The logo stays and we don't care about your feelings" if they want to. But it would be a stupid thing to do in the face of a PR faux pas. They should have looked at the design and seen this coming - that's part of the job of the people who put this together.
And as someone for whom this design screams SWASTIKA (I don't think it's nearly as difficult to see as some people are saying - it's actually pretty difficult to design something in black and red with straight lines and radial symmetry that doesn't look swastika-like, unfortunately) I'm not offended as such because I realise it wasn't intentional. But graphic design / advertising is supposed to consider "what will spring to mind when someone sees this image?" and failing to see this is a professional failure. Designers want (and are paid a decent income for) you to look at their designs and think "young" or "fresh" or "rich and fashionable" or "exciting and different!" Nobody wants "Nazi". Well. Maybe some people do. But probably not these guys. So it's not a racist affront so much as it is a monumental professional screw up. Which is almost certainly how they're seeing it and why they're apologising.
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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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Adeodatus
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# 4992
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Posted
My guess is the designer was a City fan.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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Stetson
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# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
What Marvin, Adeodatus and Enoch said; I've always associated the words "New Order" with the Manchester/ Salford band and never come across this term in the context of the Nazis.
Maybe this is a pond thing. On this side of the world, failing to recognize "new order" as a Nazi catch-phrase would raise howls of indignation at the school system -- rather like those that go up when California kids can't find California on a map of the US. But, given the large number of Purgatorians who find this obscure, perhaps it is regional in its association.
--Tom Clune
I think the phrase "new order" is generally associated with authoritarianism, usually but not exclusively of the perceived "Illuminati" variety.
Which is not neccessarily Nazi, but when you combine the authoritarian overtones of the phrase(real or imagined), with something shaped like the football logo, well, it's not hard to imagine that the latter was intended to look like a swastika.
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Carex
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# 9643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
In any case, the swastika was around long before the Nazis.
Probably most widely imported to the UK from India. Although the swastika in India was the other way round and had dots. I'm not sure why the Nazis wanted to change it. Or why it has the "a" on the end - the Hindi word is pronounced "swastik"
It also appears - with the arms reversed - in Native American art.
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Penny S
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# 14768
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Posted
The designer of the covers of Kipling's books used it as part of the design - I think it was his father who did the work.
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rolyn
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# 16840
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Posted
Can't see the swastika myself , although the colours red and black on a white background , together with the incline the of the design , do hint at it .
If the intention was some vague parallel to nazism then I would not have thought it a particularly clever one for a football club . Every school child , young and old the world over, knows Hitler's 'New Order' under the swastika was decisively and unequivocally defeated.
Poor old Man U seem to be all at sea without Fergie at the helm .
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
And as St Bridget's cross.
I think that's stretching things. In St. Bridget's Cross the arms stand out straight from the center. You might as well call a four-pointed star a swastika.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carex:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
In any case, the swastika was around long before the Nazis.
Probably most widely imported to the UK from India. Although the swastika in India was the other way round and had dots. I'm not sure why the Nazis wanted to change it. Or why it has the "a" on the end - the Hindi word is pronounced "swastik"
It also appears - with the arms reversed - in Native American art.
It's used all over the place as a symbol of Buddhism in South Korea. Though I assume it wandered over here from points west, probably India.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
As for St. Brigid's cross, this website, which purports to have some authority in the matter, says that it is made in the form of a swastika. The picture on the page would certainly look swastika-ish to many viewers, regardless of how closely it actually fits the techincal parameters.
[ 28. October 2013, 20:10: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Bene Gesserit
Shipmate
# 14718
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Posted
I had to look quite hard to see the resemblance to a swastika and even once I'd worked out how it's supposed to, I couldn't really convince myself that it does. I'm afraid that to me it's just another not-very-good logo like the tawdry Olympics 2012 one.
Having said that, I think that if people really do think it does look like a swastika then it probably does need to be changed or reworked, even if only because a certain type of idiot will adopt it!
And I'm another one who didn't know of any association between the phrase New Order and Nazism. To me New Order were a band I've vaguely heard of but never actually heard.
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Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
And as St Bridget's cross.
I think that's stretching things. In St. Bridget's Cross the arms stand out straight from the center.
It's got as much in common with a swastika as the logo in the OP has. If not more.
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Hail Gallaxhar
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