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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: EU: in or out?
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EtymologicalEvangelical
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# 15091
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Posted
I must confess that I haven't really thought through the arguments for and against continuing UK membership of the EU, but in the light of the recent comment by the chief executive of Nissan, perhaps I ought to be educated in this matter. I generally veer towards 'in'.
Could anyone help by discussing the pros and cons of this?
(Or if there's been a recent thread on this subject, then perhaps I could be directed to it.)
[ 10. January 2014, 21:18: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I am for being in, because there is a necessity - increasing - to be in an economic partnership with others to have successful global markets. OK, there are countries who don't have these sorts of relationships, but to be the sort of world player we want to be - and need to be, because that is where all of our business is - then we need membership of some economic bloc.
More than that, though, I think our economic models would be better looking at the European model than the US model, as we tend to do (this is following the ideas of Will Hutton). His arguments are that these produce lower immediate gains, but better long-term stability. Aligning ourselves from an economic position might be a route towards introducing this direction.
Having said that, there are aspects of the EU that are corrupt and broken. Not unlike other political institutions. So I am all for being involved, and making things changed. But we cannot change without being stuck in.
What is more, the Tories oppose it, which has to be an indication that it is not all bad.
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Sioni Sais
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# 5713
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Posted
I don't think we get a good deal out of the EU, it's undemocratic and the accounts haven't been signed off for a decade or more.
That said, we'd get screwed to a far greater extent out of Europe (any divorce settlement would make the Versailles reparations look a bargain) and we have a chance to be one of the rare voices of reason there.
We should stay in the tent, pissing out.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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shamwari
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# 15556
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Posted
Agree with SS basically (for a change.)
But, if we stayed in the tent, better we reversed the direction of the p***
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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Ad Orientem
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# 17574
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Posted
I don't speak as a Brit, but I think Finland would be better off outside and I think the UK would too. And I don't buy all the bollocks given by the pro-EU groups because it's just scaremongering. I'd love to see the EU and the Euro fail. For me it represents a worrying trend towards ever greater economic and political centralism, globalism, something which neither benefits the people of Europe nor the other people of the world we trade with, just the fat cats at the top.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
The EU - and only the EU - go the extra mile and insist on the free movement of labour, along with the free movement of goods and capital. The latter two on their own are a capitalists' charter. The former is the corrective.
So, for that reason alone, in.
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Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The EU - and only the EU - go the extra mile and insist on the free movement of labour, along with the free movement of goods and capital. The latter two on their own are a capitalists' charter. The former is the corrective.
So, for that reason alone, in.
That's a very interesting point, which I sometimes use in arguments. But of course, the UKIP argument is no to all of it, although I suppose they want to keep some movement of goods and capital!
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Anglican't
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# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The EU - and only the EU - go the extra mile and insist on the free movement of labour, along with the free movement of goods and capital. The latter two on their own are a capitalists' charter. The former is the corrective.
So, for that reason alone, in.
That's a very interesting point, which I sometimes use in arguments. But of course, the UKIP argument is no to all of it, although I suppose they want to keep some movement of goods and capital!
My understanding is that UKIP wants to take Britain out of the EU but not the EEA, which means we would still enjoy many benefits of the single market. The flip side of that is that we might still be bound by some of the rules of the single market. Nobody seems to have called Nigel Farage out on that yet. Perhaps, given time, he will be.
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marzipan
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# 9442
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Posted
Whenever I read this thread title I think of the Hokey Cokey...
But I would agree with Doc Tor - the freedom of movement within the EU is a great thing for the ordinary people, not just the 'fat cats'. And EU citizens being able to vote in the EU elections whichever country they are living in is probably a Good Thing too for all the people who work in a country they're not born in.
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formerly cheesymarzipan.
Now containing 50% less cheese
Posts: 917 | From: nowhere in particular | Registered: May 2005
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Anglican't
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# 15292
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Posted
The Norwegians and the Swiss enjoy considerable freedom of movement in Europe, don't they?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
What Doc Tor said. The EU is worth it for that alone - even though that wasn't its main purpose nor its most important one.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
The Norwegians and the Swiss enjoy considerable freedom of movement in Europe, don't they?
That is not what is being talked about.
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rolyn
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# 16840
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Posted
Having had the annual raking over the old coals of 2 World Wars ,(centred on Europe) . My vote is to stay in in EU purely to prevent anything like that ever happening again .
Having said that I shall be voting UKIP at the next election purely over the matter of an immigration policy which I believe is unsustainable.
Probably not the actions of a typically right-thinking person, but until some can actually tell me how it is good for country, and it's economy , to keep British workers on the dole while giving jobs to workers from outside the UK ? Well then that's how it stays.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Another in.
(Sheesh, what happened to debate, can someone say out please?)
Banking: A lot of EU banking is done through London. If the UK left the EU do you think international brands such as Santander and HSBC wouldn't move their operations to Berlin (Even British brands like Lloyds have a Portuguese top executive.)
The banking sector is one of the top wealth creators in the UK, without it we'd be a much poorer country.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
The Norwegians and the Swiss enjoy considerable freedom of movement in Europe, don't they?
That is not what is being talked about.
Erm, are you sure?:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The EU - and only the EU - go the extra mile and insist on the free movement of labour, along with the free movement of goods and capital. The latter two on their own are a capitalists' charter. The former is the corrective.
So, for that reason alone, in.
quote:
Originally posted by cheesymarzipan:
But I would agree with Doc Tor - the freedom of movement within the EU is a great thing for the ordinary people, not just the 'fat cats'.
Free movement of goods, services and labour are cited as reasons to remain within the EU. But if it is possible to take advantage of these things from outside of the EU, like the Norwegians and the Swiss appear to do, then it surely raises the questions whether these are reasons to remain in?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
(Sheesh, what happened to debate, can someone say out please?)
Me me me! I'm an outy. Sorry, but the EU has made Europe too expensive. That's why everything is being outsourced to India and China. The EU has been successful in one thing only and that is in destroying the economies of the EU. It's all part of the globalist scheme (yes, I oppose globalism, it benefits no one except those at the top). And quite why some Fritz or Pierre in Brussels should have any say in how my country is run, I don't know, but then that's why I vote nationalist.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
(Sheesh, what happened to debate, can someone say out please?)
Me me me! I'm an outy. Sorry, but the EU has made Europe too expensive. That's why everything is being outsourced to India and China. The EU has been successful in one thing only and that is in destroying the economies of the EU. It's all part of the globalist scheme (yes, I oppose globalism, it benefits no one except those at the top). And quite why some Fritz or Pierre in Brussels should have any say in how my country is run, I don't know, but then that's why I vote nationalist.
We aren't run from Brussels. Or Washington or Westminster for that matter. We're run from Wall St. and the City, but of all the political institutions that could wrest some power from the globalists, I believe the EU could do it. Mind you, I'd like to see a properly democratic Europe, rather than one in which the legislation is initiated by its civil service.
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Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Sorry, but the EU has made Europe too expensive. That's why everything is being outsourced to India and China.
I don't think EU policy is the cause of offshoring (the EU is more likely to act in a protectionist manner to keep jobs in the EU). Offshoring is the result of bad management practices that focus on short term gains, "economies of scale" and unit cost thinking that actually drives up costs over the long term.
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
Posts: 438 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2013
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Me me me! I'm an outy. Sorry, but the EU has made Europe too expensive.
The EU country with the largest industrial sector - Germany - is also not amongst the lowest cost.
quote:
That's why everything is being outsourced to India and China.
Unless you are looking at a future of completely isolated national economies, things will continue to be outsourced.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Free movement of goods, services and labour are cited as reasons to remain within the EU. But if it is possible to take advantage of these things from outside of the EU, like the Norwegians and the Swiss appear to do, then it surely raises the questions whether these are reasons to remain in?
You have a point, but the free movement of all these things, on such a grand scale, is only possible because of the EU. The Swiss and Norwegians are hanging on the coat-tails of the EU: they still have to obey all the EU regulations regarding the goods they export, and travel rights, reciprocal arrangements etc are made at the EU level - either that or 30-odd bilateral agreements.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Free movement of goods, services and labour are cited as reasons to remain within the EU. But if it is possible to take advantage of these things from outside of the EU, like the Norwegians and the Swiss appear to do
To an extent, and to that extent they are also subject to the same rules and regulations on manufacturing standards that apply to the rest of the EU.
So basically, they get the benefits but they are also subject to the costs - and more than this they don't have any means to directly affect the content of these rules/regulations as they are never part of the negotiations when such things are drawn up.
[ 13. November 2013, 11:11: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
You have a point, but the free movement of all these things, on such a grand scale, is only possible because of the EU. The Swiss and Norwegians are hanging on the coat-tails of the EU: they still have to obey all the EU regulations regarding the goods they export, and travel rights, reciprocal arrangements etc are made at the EU level - either that or 30-odd bilateral agreements.
Even if they are, why can't we hang on the coat-tails too?
My understanding is that Switzerland was able to negotiate a good deal with the EU in terms of which rules she's bound by. If Britain were to go to leave, why couldn't we negotiate as good as if not a better deal? We're the world's sixth-largest economy after all.
[ 13. November 2013, 11:14: Message edited by: Anglican't ]
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
The usual argument to the Swiss example, is that you are governed by rules which you have no say in. Well, of course Euro-skeptics say that about the EU!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Sighthound
Shipmate
# 15185
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Posted
I think it will be very difficult and risky for us to come out of the EU. I also mistrust the motives of many antis, as I think they want to turn the UK into even more of a sweatshop economy than it has already become.
I am not a great admirer of the EU, it has lots of faults, but sadly it has become a sort of necessary evil. I would like to see a detailed and honest completely frank list of pros and cons for staying and leaving. The problem is, no such objective account is likely to appear, and people will end up voting on the basis of nonsense printed in the popular press.
I suspect if we do leave we will find ourselves like another Norway, bound to obey the EU's dictates in all manner of stuff and yet having no say whatever in EU policy and laws. I do not see that as any kind of improvement. Indeed I see it as the worst of all worlds.
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Posts: 168 | From: England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
You have a point, but the free movement of all these things, on such a grand scale, is only possible because of the EU. The Swiss and Norwegians are hanging on the coat-tails of the EU: they still have to obey all the EU regulations regarding the goods they export, and travel rights, reciprocal arrangements etc are made at the EU level - either that or 30-odd bilateral agreements.
Even if they are, why can't we hang on the coat-tails too?
My understanding is that Switzerland was able to negotiate a good deal with the EU in terms of which rules she's bound by. If Britain were to go to leave, why couldn't we negotiate as good as if not a better deal? We're the world's sixth-largest economy after all.
We can hope. But why would we want to be subject to all the rules without a hope of changing them? That would leave us in the invidious position of being in hock to both multi-national corporations and a multi-national political entity that's in many ways a corrective for the first.
For better or worse, individual governments can't stand up to corporations any more. Only a collective of governments can say "if you won't trade fairly with one of us, you don't trade with any of us". For sure, the system isn't perfect, and some of the time it doesn't work. But, for the moment, it's what we have.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
For better or worse, individual governments can't stand up to corporations any more. Only a collective of governments can say "if you won't trade fairly with one of us, you don't trade with any of us". For sure, the system isn't perfect, and some of the time it doesn't work. But, for the moment, it's what we have.
I don't think I agree with your diagnosis of the problem, but even if you're right, on what occasions has the EU proved to be the solution? I can't think of any.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
cheesymarzipan: quote:
Whenever I read this thread title I think of the Hokey Cokey...
I think 'Shake it all about' is a fairly good summary of the current government's policy towards the EU.
Another vote for 'in', here, for the reasons already cited by Doc Tor and Chris Stiles.
Do any of the outies ever pause to consider that the French might be quite pleased if we left the EU? They never wanted us in in the first place (well, de Gaulle didn't anyway). Do you REALLY want to cut your nose off to spite your face, just to make the French happy? ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Do any of the outies ever pause to consider that the French might be quite pleased if we left the EU? They never wanted us in in the first place (well, de Gaulle didn't anyway). Do you REALLY want to cut your nose off to spite your face, just to make the French happy?
But when Britain flourishes outside of the EU, and the French continue to struggle through the slough of EU bureaucracy and Hollande's taxes, who'll have the last laugh, eh?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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pererin
Shipmate
# 16956
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
The Norwegians and the Swiss enjoy considerable freedom of movement in Europe, don't they?
I think freedom of movement is one of those things Brits oppose, because of the national paranoia about economic migrants. Heaven forfend that anyone should be able to go to St Pancras station and get on a train to Paris without a passport.
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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)
Posts: 446 | From: Llantrisant | Registered: Feb 2012
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
Heaven forfend that anyone should be able to go to St Pancras station and get on a train to Paris without a passport.
Oh come now, nobody has a problem with people leaving Britain.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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pererin
Shipmate
# 16956
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Oh come now, nobody has a problem with people leaving Britain.
That wasn't the experience I had last time I took a flight. I got a nice immigration guy in New York, and thoroughly bored people in Dublin, but in Cardiff I got the police asking "Why are you going to the Republic of Ireland?"
But to actually answer the OP this time: out! The European Commission is an affront to democracy, and no-one's interested in materially changing that.
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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)
Posts: 446 | From: Llantrisant | Registered: Feb 2012
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
Flights and Eurostar differ in that respect.
I actually find the Eurostar passport checks hilarious. In Paris: passport checked twice, once by the French checking you have the right to leave and once by the British checking you have the right to enter. In London: passport checked once, by the French checking you have the right to enter and nary a British police officer in sight.
Moral: the UK Border Agency is interested in who arrives but doesn't give a flying brief relationship who leaves the country. Because the minute you get on the train you become Someone Else's Problem™. So long as you are leaving, you can go anywhere you please and break as many laws as you like.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
The Swiss do, to a certain extent, have it both ways though. I've worked there, and it needed a work permit - something I didn't need when I worked in lots of other European countries.
The permit wasn't generic - it was tied to the particular job. Lose the job, lose the permit, and lose the right to remain.
And so the Swiss did have the thing that Nigel Farage etc seem to cherish the most - control over immigration.
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Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
I took a day trip on the hydrofoil from Jersey to Normandy.
Going out: no passport checks in Jersey or France
Coming back: no French passport control but people who had travelled without passport had trouble getting back in.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
Another in here, although I think the EU as currently organised needs to be slimmed down.
Transnational business has now become so powerful that it has become able to play off states against each other by negotiating preferential tax treatment or watering down of labour laws. International confederations like the EU help counter this.
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Ronald Binge
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# 9002
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Posted
According to one reckoning (as it's disputed) I live right on the border between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland - the tidal waters of Lough Foyle, which is the other side of the road from me, are deemed to be in County Londonderry, or Co Donegal depending on who you listen to.
I also shop in both Sainsburys in Derry and SuperValu in Carndonagh.
Do the brave anti EU merchants propose to put up a physical border between the Republic and Northern Ireland? Good luck with that if they think they can. I've no particular love for the EU but I would be bloody annoyed if Little Englanders tried any kind of stunt on Irish/Northern Irish territory or demeaned the rights of Irish citizens in the United Kingdom.
[ 13. November 2013, 18:23: Message edited by: Ronald Binge ]
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
According to one reckoning (as it's disputed) I live right on the border between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland - the tidal waters of Lough Foyle, which is the other side of the road from me, are deemed to be in County Londonderry, or Co Donegal depending on who you listen to.
I also shop in both Sainsburys in Derry and SuperValu in Carndonagh.
Do the brave anti EU merchants propose to put up a physical border between the Republic and Northern Ireland? Good luck with that if they think they can. I've no particular love for the EU but I would be bloody annoyed if Little Englanders tried any kind of stunt on Irish/Northern Irish territory or demeaned the rights of Irish citizens in the United Kingdom.
I am not a British civil servant, but my guess is that it would remain as open as the Norwegian-Swedish border, which has been passport-free for at least as long as the EU. Actually, speaking of borders, why not put up one anyway, seeing as the Danish are raising one against Germany, and the French and Italians are bordering up against one another? Not sure the EU is really more of a guarantee there.
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Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH
Posts: 851 | From: Proud Socialist Monarchy of Sweden | Registered: May 2009
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
AIUI open borders - in the sense of no passport controls - are separate from the EU. There are non-EU countries in Schengen and EU countries out of it.
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Out, definitely. Renegotiate the terms so that we have the right to trade, but don't have to go down the whole route of harmonization of laws, single currency, etc. I'm not UKIP but I do think it's gone too far. This is not the Common Market that we signed up to in the 70s - I don't think anyone envisaged how close it would become to a single European superstate instead of an alliance of trading partners.
Some of the side effects of EU membership are ridiculous. It is absolutely absurd being told (for example) that they can't sell you half a pound of cheese at the supermarket "because it's illegal". It's not dangerous, it's not hurting anybody. Why are imperial measurements "illegal"?
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Out, definitely. Renegotiate the terms so that we have the right to trade, but don't have to go down the whole route of harmonization of laws, single currency, etc. I'm not UKIP but I do think it's gone too far. This is not the Common Market that we signed up to in the 70s - I don't think anyone envisaged how close it would become to a single European superstate instead of an alliance of trading partners.
Some of the side effects of EU membership are ridiculous. It is absolutely absurd being told (for example) that they can't sell you half a pound of cheese at the supermarket "because it's illegal". It's not dangerous, it's not hurting anybody. Why are imperial measurements "illegal"?
That is nonsense. I always ask for weighed goods in imperial measurements in the Republic of Ireland and get them without quibble. Astonishing that calculating 454g = 1lb is some kind of insurmountable obstacle.
[ 13. November 2013, 18:53: Message edited by: Ronald Binge ]
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Actually, speaking of borders, why not put up one anyway, seeing as the Danish are raising one against Germany, and the French and Italians are bordering up against one another? Not sure the EU is really more of a guarantee there.
Why? For the fun of it? Have you any understanding how this corner of the British Isles actually works?
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
Do the brave anti EU merchants propose to put up a physical border between the Republic and Northern Ireland? Good luck with that if they think they can. I've no particular love for the EU but I would be bloody annoyed if Little Englanders tried any kind of stunt on Irish/Northern Irish territory or demeaned the rights of Irish citizens in the United Kingdom.
Doesn't the Anglo-Irish Common Travel Area pre-date both countries' membership of the EU?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Having had the annual raking over the old coals of 2 World Wars ,(centred on Europe) . My vote is to stay in in EU purely to prevent anything like that ever happening again .
Having said that I shall be voting UKIP at the next election purely over the matter of an immigration policy which I believe is unsustainable.
Probably not the actions of a typically right-thinking person, but until some can actually tell me how it is good for country, and it's economy , to keep British workers on the dole while giving jobs to workers from outside the UK ? Well then that's how it stays.
Have you seen these studies:
there is an awful lot of bollocks talked about immigration that appears to be unrelated to the evidence, I think it is the EU that has been repeatedly asking the UK government for evidence for the benefit tourism it keeps shouting about - thus far they apparently either can not or will not produce such evidence.
[ 13. November 2013, 20:35: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
Do the brave anti EU merchants propose to put up a physical border between the Republic and Northern Ireland? Good luck with that if they think they can. I've no particular love for the EU but I would be bloody annoyed if Little Englanders tried any kind of stunt on Irish/Northern Irish territory or demeaned the rights of Irish citizens in the United Kingdom.
Doesn't the Anglo-Irish Common Travel Area pre-date both countries' membership of the EU?
Republic of Ireland remains in the EU, the United Kingdom pulls out. How do you propose to maintain an open border in that situation, and if you then follow the logic of closing it, how do you deal with the consequences? Anti EU believers need to think all this through.
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Out, definitely. Renegotiate the terms so that we have the right to trade, but don't have to go down the whole route of harmonization of laws, single currency, etc. I'm not UKIP but I do think it's gone too far. This is not the Common Market that we signed up to in the 70s - I don't think anyone envisaged how close it would become to a single European superstate instead of an alliance of trading partners.
Some of the side effects of EU membership are ridiculous. It is absolutely absurd being told (for example) that they can't sell you half a pound of cheese at the supermarket "because it's illegal". It's not dangerous, it's not hurting anybody. Why are imperial measurements "illegal"?
Two problems.
One, what if the EU don't want to play? Or if the EU do want to play, and that game is 'hard ball'? And again, we'll still have to follow all the EU regulations if we want to sell to the EU, which I presume we will.
Secondly, the weight displayed on the label is in kg. You can ask for it in pecks or hundredweights if you want. But please do remember that schools in the UK have taught the metric system for as long as I remember, and I'm 47. This won't even be an argument in twenty years time, because it'll be "pounds and ounces, grandad? What are they?"
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
Republic of Ireland remains in the EU, the United Kingdom pulls out. How do you propose to maintain an open border in that situation, and if you then follow the logic of closing it, how do you deal with the consequences? Anti EU believers need to think all this through.
The Republic of Ireland has external border controls in the same way that the UK has, doesn't it? If Britain withdraws from the EU the CTA will remain in effect. I don't see the problem.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Why are we happier to have the Irish rather than say, the Roma ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Why are we happier to have the Irish rather than say, the Roma ?
Presumably in part because of the very deep cultural, social, historic, economic and geographical ties between the two countries?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Roma have been in Britain for centuries. And interestingly, they have never fought a war with us or mounted a terrorist campaign - nor did we ever invade or wholesale exclude them.
On the other hand, they are not white.
(Yay culture !)
[ 13. November 2013, 21:35: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
The Republic of Ireland has external border controls in the same way that the UK has, doesn't it? If Britain withdraws from the EU the CTA will remain in effect. I don't see the problem.
The problem comes with allowing non-EU citizens into the EU, and then on to other EU countries. The Irish going to the UK is fine - it's UK citizens entering the Republic which is the problem. The EU frontier is right there, whatever bilateral agreements might be in place. The Irish won't want stringent border controls between Ireland and mainland Europe, so they'll just have to put them in the north of the island instead.
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Forward the New Republic
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