homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools
Thread closed  Thread closed


Post new thread  
Thread closed  Thread closed
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Ship's Locker   » Limbo   » Hell: Enlighten me, leo (Page 2)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Hell: Enlighten me, leo
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
I am with Ingob, Eliab and Amos.

I also think a condition of absolution ought to be that the perpretrator seeks help - the touble is, there is little help available, just prison.

Experts say that child abusers cannot change, but surely the gospel says that all of us who are sinners, in whatever way, can change, whatever our sins.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zorro
Shipmate
# 9156

 - Posted      Profile for Zorro   Author's homepage   Email Zorro   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
Leo, there's sinning, then there's child abuse.

I swore at someone the other day, that's a sin.

Someone's been sexually assaulting kids for the last 20 years, which is worse?

Again, a lot of evidence points to the fact that many paedophiles never believe that they have done anything wrong. That's why I don't think they're looking for absolution, but more to wipe their conscience clear.

For me this is a key difference between some christians and myself. Some people think that the gospel says that everyone can repent, and that the confessional should be completely confidential. I think that where child-abuse is concerned, it isn't justifiable to keep it under your hat.

If a doctor or teacher is told/discovers that someone is abusing children, they have a duty to report it.

As far as I'm concerned, the right of paedophiles to feel their crimes will be held in confidence is rubbish. Anyone who harms children in this way should be immediately reported to the authorities, and put away for a long, long time.

That's what I think, but I'm aware that it must be incredibly difficult to bin certain highly important aspects in your religion, but to my mind that's something that religions need to adapt to.

Also, regarding the bit you mentioned about the Gospel telling us that people can always repent, I found this in the bible

quote:
But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
Now I know it doesn't mention child abuse outright, but it's certainly clear that leading children astray is a serious offence.

--------------------
It is so hard to believe, because it is so hard to obey. Soren Kierkegaard
Well, churches really should be like sluts; take everyone no matter who they are or whether they can pay. Spiffy da wondersheep

Posts: 2568 | From: Baja California (actually the UK but that's where my fans know me from) | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
PhilA

shipocaster
# 8792

 - Posted      Profile for PhilA   Email PhilA   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
There's something greater here than me, than my son, than all suffering of the world. There's God. And in the person of Christ, God is there for every man - every man, even if it's a man I wish to kill.


[Overused]

That is why I cannot condone violence.

--------------------
To err is human. To arr takes a pirate.

Posts: 3121 | From: Sofa | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Josephine

Orthodox Belle
# 3899

 - Posted      Profile for Josephine   Author's homepage   Email Josephine   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Joan_of_Quark:
I am sure I've seen arguments that a lot of abusers start quite young, and that seriousness of offences escalates. <snip>

I think we're right in saying it's more than likely there's an abusing adult or two in the vicinity that they are copying, and we need to find those people's other victims. Not, of course, that all children who are abused go on to do the same or similar things. Nor that some children don't occasionally come up with some extremely vile behaviours all by themselves.

One has to be careful in assuming that a child who is exhibiting hypersexual behavior is necessarily being abused. Hypersexual behavior is a common symptom of early-onset bipolar disorder. It is an extremely distressing symptom of an extremely serious psychiatric disorder.

If the child is exhibiting hypersexual behavior, the parents are generally very much aware that, in seeking help for their child, they are risking being accused of abuse, with all that entails. It's a terrible position for a parent to be in.

--------------------
I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!

Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Callan
Shipmate
# 525

 - Posted      Profile for Callan     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
I always find this debate rather perpelexing. Clergy do not, as a rule, wake up in the morning to find a queue of impenitent sinners who happen to want to confess a heinous mortal sin which is also a civil crime but have no desire for absolution waiting outside the vicarage door.

My view is that the Seal of the Confessional is absolute and a priest has no business breaking it, no matter how heinous the crime confessed, but do you really think that officious governments of all stripes would tolerate such a thing, if they thought they could make a serious dent in the crime rate by abolishing it? I'm surprised that Charles Clarke hasn't already suggested the idea.

Broadly speaking, my understanding is that most padeophiles successfully rationalise their behaviour to themselves and I would imagine that in most instances a child abuser who makes a confession does so because they actually want to end the situation. I would think it astonishingly rare for a child abuser to confess their sin to a priest with no intention or desire to rectify the situation. A priest in those circumstances faces an agonising situation but it isn't really part of the daily hustle and bustle of parish life.

--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

 - Posted      Profile for Doublethink.   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
Sexually disinhibited behaviour in itself no, and it could be a sign of all sorts of things - but it should be treated as a serious problem, if a child is developing bipolar disorder that is a serious problem.

However, I have heard that physicians in the states are diagnosing children as young as two with bipolar disorder and I woudl be extremely sceptical of this. The diagnostic criteria are not designed to be used for a child this age, and therefore do not take account of developmental issues, and the drugs used to treat are very powerful and have not been properely evaluated for use in young children - this article from the Plos collection on disease mongering is very interesting (though I have my doubts about the author's view of subjective and objective measures) it illustrates the role of drug manufacturers in these processes.

--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

 - Posted      Profile for Doublethink.   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
Sorry, the above was in reply to Josephine - crosspost strikes again [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Amos

Shipmate
# 44

 - Posted      Profile for Amos     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
I always find this debate rather perpelexing. Clergy do not, as a rule, wake up in the morning to find a queue of impenitent sinners who happen to want to confess a heinous mortal sin which is also a civil crime but have no desire for absolution waiting outside the vicarage door.

I'm sure I was told that these kinds of things used to take place in old gangster films.

--------------------
At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Zorro:
Leo, there's sinning, then there's child abuse.

I swore at someone the other day, that's a sin.

Someone's been sexually assaulting kids for the last 20 years, which is worse?

...Anyone who harms children in this way should be immediately reported to the authorities, and put away for a long, long time.....Also, regarding the bit you mentioned about the Gospel telling us that people can always repent, I found this in the bible

quote:
But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
Now I know it doesn't mention child abuse outright, but it's certainly clear that leading children astray is a serious offence.
There are those diehard catholics who would say that ANY sin unrepented would send one to Hell. I don't accept that but I DO believe that child-abusers cannot help it, which puts them, for me, into the category of 'sick' more than evil. Putting them in prison means they will get beaten up, unable to get a job when they come out so have more times on their hands to hang around children and so on.

I am not saying that abuse is NOT a serious offence; however I object to two posts earlier in this thread which referred to them as 'shitbags' and such like. They are, like the rest of us, children of God. He loves them and we are called to do the same. The real issue is: how is that love best demonstrated?

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
musician

Ship's grin without a cat
# 4873

 - Posted      Profile for musician   Email musician   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
I don't accept that but I DO believe that child-abusers cannot help it,
Leo,
an abuser was impisoned in the past coupl eof weeks. A tape was played on TV of an interview with him by the police. In it he claimed that the children he abused had done it for the monwy he gave them, claiming that they wanted to do this.
There wasn't any suggestion of sorrow or repentance from him. Just that the children wanted it.
Can't help it? In that case, wouldn't they be imprisoned in state mental institutions, but how many are?

Posts: 1569 | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266

 - Posted      Profile for Nightlamp   Email Nightlamp   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:

My view is that the Seal of the Confessional is absolute and a priest has no business breaking it, no matter how heinous the crime confessed,

I believe that a priest's loyalty to God and humanity should be above that of some kind of church tradition.

--------------------
I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Amos

Shipmate
# 44

 - Posted      Profile for Amos     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
That being so, Nightlamp, which offenses do you think a priest should report to the police? Just curious, you understand.

--------------------
At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

 - Posted      Profile for Erin   Author's homepage   Email Erin       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I don't accept that but I DO believe that child-abusers cannot help it, which puts them, for me, into the category of 'sick' more than evil.

You're wrong. If a person gets their jollies by fucking or knocking around or starving a helpless child, they are definitely evil. The fabulous thing about me not being God is that I don't have to love or forgive them. If God chooses to toss my ass into hell over that, that's fine with me. I'll go willingly.

--------------------
Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266

 - Posted      Profile for Nightlamp   Email Nightlamp   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
That being so, Nightlamp, which offenses do you think a priest should report to the police?

I guess priests should be able to discern the difference between not buying a parking ticket and peudophilia. Do you think priests are able to make such distinctions?

--------------------
I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Amos

Shipmate
# 44

 - Posted      Profile for Amos     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
You haven't answered my question. So far, those who wish to make child sexual abuse the single sin for which the seal of the confessional can be broken contrast it with saying 'fuck' or not paying your parking tickets. What about murder? What about beating up your granny? What about that hit-and-run that you haven't been caught for yet but feel awfully guilty about? What about embezzlement? What about firebombing Asian corner shops?

[ 01. May 2006, 21:35: Message edited by: Amos ]

--------------------
At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266

 - Posted      Profile for Nightlamp   Email Nightlamp   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
I am sorry for those priests who can't spot the difference between a serious crime and a minor misdemeanor. Poor loves.

--------------------
I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

 - Posted      Profile for RooK   Author's homepage   Email RooK   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
I'm waiting for Amos to give up and ask the Godwinian question about people lying to the German SS to protect and hide illegal Jews. The higher purposes of society demanded that this threat against the Fatherland be dealt with!

Yadda yadda yadda, and so on.

Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Triple Tiara

Ship's Papabile
# 9556

 - Posted      Profile for Triple Tiara   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
More heat than light. On the issue of child sexual abuse there is always more heat than light.

And a lot of crap has been spouted here about the ministry of the sacrament by those who know nothing about it. Priests are not as daft as some of you seem to imagine them to be.

Only a sparse number of those who sit the other side of the confessional have posted here - in fact Callan is the only one I recognise, and what an excellent post he made.

For Roman Catholics the seal of the confessional is inviolable. No ifs, no buts, no special circumstances....

Well, not entirely true. If you came and confessed to me that that you had taken the Blessed Sacrament home with you and spat on it before dumping it in the rubbish, I would have to withold absolution and seek permission from the Sacred Penitentiary in Rome to give absolution - while witholding your identity. There's one example of a reserved sin which requires a higher authority than me to give absolution, even though I would be the one dealing with this matter.

The sacrament of confession is called in canonical terms the internal forum. If you come and tell me you are about to fly a plane into the Twin Towers, as someone suggested might happen, then I remove my stole and say "Right. This stops here and now. Anything you tell me is no longer privileged by the seal of the confessional and I have a duty to take what you say further". I would do the same with anyone who was confessing child abuse. No absolution in the internal forum until the matter is dealt with in the external forum.

But before you ask, no I would do absolutely nothing about what was told to me in the internal forum. Call it what you like, but that is the duty imposed upon me by the sacramental seal. Nightlamp dismisses it as "mere church tradition" - piss off. You know nothing of what it means to hear the sorry tale of peoples' sinfulness as a confessor, and what that entails.

Someone suggested there might or should be some data about how often this sin is confessed. No priest in the entire world keeps a list of sins confessed or reports to another priest what they have heard. This just is not going to happen.

But as Callan points out, the reality of the confessional is unlikely ever to hear the confession of this big sin. Hearing peoples' confessions is the most privileged part of a priest's work. It is a burden and a joy. It is intimate and it is holy ground. Supposing that some significantly evil person is going to come and play games with the sacramnet might be a good theme for a Dan Brown novel - fortunately it has no basis in reality.

--------------------
I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.

Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

 - Posted      Profile for RuthW     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Only a sparse number of those who sit the other side of the confessional have posted here - in fact Callan is the only one I recognise, and what an excellent post he made.

Amos and Nightlamp are also CofE priests.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Triple Tiara

Ship's Papabile
# 9556

 - Posted      Profile for Triple Tiara   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
Thanks Ruth.

That information makes Nightlamp's contribution even more incomprehensible to me. I had understood that CofE priests also operate under the seal, and it was not a personal choice that they could dispense with.

It also explains why Amos has a sense of the confessional, like Callan does, that I recognise

--------------------
I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.

Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

 - Posted      Profile for IngoB   Email IngoB   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by LatePaul:
I'd have to be really sure that the priest really was acting as God in the sacrament to think it was ok for him not to aid the capture and incarceration of a dangerous criminal. How can one ever be that sure?

Faith means being really sure, not because you are blind to the possibility that you could be wrong, but because you trust that you are not. Once you start "if and but"-ing that trust, it may remain a strongly held opinion, but it is not faith anymore.

quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
The fabulous thing about me not being God is that I don't have to love or forgive them.

I think this is a quite important point for the discussion with non-believers, actually. Everybody understands from justice and common sense, that somebody may not wish or indeed be able to love and forgive somebody else. Indeed, in the case of a child abuser we can easily believe that nobody wishes to love and forgive that person. But, it is also comprehensible to most that good ethics and psychology can be stretched so far as to say that everybody should be able to find love and forgiveness if they are truly sorry. So there's a dilemma: everybody should get that chance, but nobody wants to provide it. We say then that God provides the chance and that the priests minister it. Even if someone doesn't believe in God, I think he may come to the conclusion that "playing pretend" is actually good here to break that moral dilemma.

--------------------
They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Carys

Ship's Celticist
# 78

 - Posted      Profile for Carys   Email Carys   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Amos and Nightlamp are also CofE priests.

I knew Amos was ordained but I had not realised that Nightlamp was.

quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Thanks Ruth.

That information makes Nightlamp's contribution even more incomprehensible to me. I had understood that CofE priests also operate under the seal, and it was not a personal choice that they could dispense with.

They are, but a large number of Anglican priests do not hear confessions. There does seem to be a split on this thread between those from a tradition where confession is common and those from other traditions.

Here's a question for those arguing that the seal should be violable for child abuse. What if Harold Shipman had gone to confession before he was arrested, should the seal also not apply there?

And thank you TT, for saying what you would do if the situation were to arise. Actually, I wonder if the priests most likely to hear confessions of this nature are those working as prison chaplains.

Dealing with those who abuse children is a thorny one for Christians because we believe that people can change (or be changed), but experience shows that abusers have a high re-offending rate.

Carys

--------------------
O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise

Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266

 - Posted      Profile for Nightlamp   Email Nightlamp   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
More than 15 years ago someone told me a confidence which I broke to save someone else from being badly harmed. I would have no qualms about doing the same again no matter what role I am fulfilling.

Someone dying or revealing a confidence? For me there is no question.

--------------------
I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Paul.
Shipmate
# 37

 - Posted      Profile for Paul.   Author's homepage   Email Paul.   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by LatePaul:
I'd have to be really sure that the priest really was acting as God in the sacrament to think it was ok for him not to aid the capture and incarceration of a dangerous criminal. How can one ever be that sure?

Faith means being really sure, not because you are blind to the possibility that you could be wrong, but because you trust that you are not. Once you start "if and but"-ing that trust, it may remain a strongly held opinion, but it is not faith anymore.
That sounds like you're saying faith should be unquestioning. But the point where a good person is led to do something bad (not report a crime) is exactly the point where I think faith should be questioned.
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Triple Tiara

Ship's Papabile
# 9556

 - Posted      Profile for Triple Tiara   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
It has been. Repeatedly. Over centuries and centuries.

And what we have as a result of that questioning is the seal of the confessional.

--------------------
I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.

Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

 - Posted      Profile for Erin   Author's homepage   Email Erin       Edit/delete post 
Which I think is wrong. I'm sorry, I do. I know God sees the big picture and really isn't all that motivated to intervene in (or much care about, for that matter) the physical suffering of his creation, but I cannot and will not believe that he actively sanctions aiding and abetting those who are harming other people.

--------------------
Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sine Nomine

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66

 - Posted      Profile for Sine Nomine   Email Sine Nomine   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
Someone dying or revealing a confidence?

So are we talking

A) "Oh by the way, Vicar - and this is strictly confidential - I'm planning on killing Mum next Tuesday."

or

B) "Father, I have sinned. I killed my mother last Tuesday and her body's in the garden shed."

Surely people don't often confess crimes to a priest in advance, I wouldn't think.

--------------------
Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...

Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
craigb
Shipmate
# 11318

 - Posted      Profile for craigb   Author's homepage   Email craigb   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
G'day Sine Nomine

quote:
Surely people don't often confess crimes to a priest in advance, I wouldn't think.

They might say I am having thoughts of doing so and so... of any kind of nature.

Blessings craig b

--------------------
Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me!I once was lost, but now am found; Was blind, but now I see... The Lord has promised good to me,His word my hope secures;He will my shield and portion be,As long as life endures.

Posts: 993 | From: Tahmoor | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
jlg

What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98

 - Posted      Profile for jlg   Email jlg   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
Didn't know you were a priest who hears sacramental confessions, crackb.
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Triple Tiara

Ship's Papabile
# 9556

 - Posted      Profile for Triple Tiara   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
Erin, I agree with you entirely. But I do not think preserving the seal of the confessional is aiding and abetting.

I can assure you, the confessional would not be a nice place to be if someone was confessing such a crime. As I enunciated above, the priest (or certainly this one) would not just be complicit and understanding and absolving of the penitent if they were not prepared to take full responsibility for their actions. There are sometimes some other issues where people try to get away with things in the confessional and expect one to excuse them - the answer is always no: this is not about excusing but about forgiving. The confessional is not a fluffy warm fuzzy hugs kind of place. It is a place of tears. It is the seat of God's mercy, but mercy is founded on justice. Absolution is not about saying "it doesn't matter" - it's about saying it does matter!

An integral part of confession is penitence and penance. Penitence is facing up to the reality of what you have done. Penance is doing something to make up for it. Forgiveness is not about excusing what has done, but about how to move beyond it once you have acknowledged it. Even for those guilty of child abuse there must be the possibility of restitutive justice, not just punitive justice. Even though we are all revolted to the core by their abuse.

If a child abuser were in my confessional and did not exhibit the marks of repentance and a willingness to do penance, there is no way they would walk out of there having received absolution. I would insist that we moved from the internal to the external forum. I am utterly sure they would not be in the confessional in the first place if they were not willing to co-operate with the ministry of the sacrament - which does not mean they will do as they are asked, just that they are some way towards recognising their guilt.

If the person was in prison already and paying for their crime, then a different issue is involved, which is rehabilitation. Again, that is not excusing and pretending it did not happen: it is assuming responsibility for their actions and moving on from there.

If that is not possible, then we are really back to the death penalty, and have simply come to the modern crime which is too heinous for us to allow that person to live, which other crimes have been regarded as in the past. Is that really what we are saying?

The seal of the confessional ensures that the penitent always takes responsibility for their own actions - they are not going to be exposed by someone else, no matter what the sin. That is a very demanding concept. And believe me, it is a very demanding concept on the one who has to preserve the seal as well - do not for a minute think I would not desire with all my being to expose a perpetrator of these crimes! I am not just sitting lightly riding on a notional rule book which says "don't tell".

--------------------
I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.

Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

 - Posted      Profile for Erin   Author's homepage   Email Erin       Edit/delete post 
I don't understand. I don't understand how a priest can hear such things and not act. Setting aside the punishment aspect, if you know someone is hurting a child, how can you not act immediately to stop it? I don't understand that at all. It is truly beyond my comprehension.

--------------------
Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
# 2349

 - Posted      Profile for Rossweisse     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
I don't understand. I don't understand how a priest can hear such things and not act. Setting aside the punishment aspect, if you know someone is hurting a child, how can you not act immediately to stop it? I don't understand that at all. It is truly beyond my comprehension.

The first time I met with my confessor, she warned me that if child abuse were involved (I forget exactly how she phrased it, but it clearly included physical harm not limited to sexual abuse) she would be compelled to go to the authorities. That way, I suppose, if you've behaved in a criminal manner with a child, you've been forewarned.

[ 02. May 2006, 03:20: Message edited by: Rossweisse ]

--------------------
I'm not dead yet.

Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

 - Posted      Profile for Lamb Chopped   Email Lamb Chopped   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
Perhaps a more common scenario would be for a priest to hear a confession from the VICTIM which made it clear that abuse was occurring. That would certainly put him in a thorny spot as far as reporting, particularly if the victim specifically begged him not to, and chose the confessional to try to ensure it. I'm no priest, but I've had several young people tell me of abuse and then beg me not to report it, usually because they don't want to wind up in foster care.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Alfred E. Neuman

What? Me worry?
# 6855

 - Posted      Profile for Alfred E. Neuman     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
[...] I am utterly sure they would not be in the confessional in the first place if they were not willing to co-operate with the ministry of the sacrament - which does not mean they will do as they are asked, just that they are some way towards recognising their guilt...

I have no supporting evidence but it seems unlikely that someone who understood the meaning of the confessional and understood the circumstances, would not be ready to accept the full consequences of secular justice. Why would a child abuser follow this route, knowing there would be no absolution if they weren't ready to accept the full punishment? The horrible guilt would only be intensified by revealing the crime and not accepting full responsibility and punishment.

--------------------
--Formerly: Gort--

Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cusanus

Ship's Schoolmaster
# 692

 - Posted      Profile for Cusanus         Edit/delete post 
Might this then not be just a big red herring? Does anyone have any evidence of child molester not being caught - or going on to offend further - because a sacramental confession to the effect was kept confidential?

--------------------
"You are qualified," sa fotherington-tomas, "becos you can frankly never pass an exam and have 0 branes. Obviously you will be a skoolmaster - there is no other choice."

Posts: 3120 | From: The Peninsula | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zorro
Shipmate
# 9156

 - Posted      Profile for Zorro   Author's homepage   Email Zorro   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
I don't understand. I don't understand how a priest can hear such things and not act. Setting aside the punishment aspect, if you know someone is hurting a child, how can you not act immediately to stop it? I don't understand that at all. It is truly beyond my comprehension.
That's the same as me. I know that it'd be a hell of a choice for a priest, under current circumstances, to decide to break the seal, but I still think it would be worth it.

I find myself wondering what view God might take on priests who stood by and watched as children had their lives screwed up. I can't help but think he'd be more chuffed with someone who spoke out and said that this was wrong, and that it should be stopped, than someone who let it happen for fear of being excommunicated.

Excommunication isn't from God, it's from the church. If you're excommunicated, it doesn't mean you can never be christian again. It means that you can't go back to catholocism. That sort of people-enforced dicipline worries me a lot. I don't think that God would be up for tossing people out of christianity.

Again, that's me not being roman catholic and almost certainly not fully comprehending the seriousness of excommunication, but I still think that it'd be better to know you stopped children being abused than to know that you've still got a job in a church which forces you to shut up about it.

--------------------
It is so hard to believe, because it is so hard to obey. Soren Kierkegaard
Well, churches really should be like sluts; take everyone no matter who they are or whether they can pay. Spiffy da wondersheep

Posts: 2568 | From: Baja California (actually the UK but that's where my fans know me from) | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266

 - Posted      Profile for Nightlamp   Email Nightlamp   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
It is interesting that people here think they would rather people die than someone reveal a confidence. A most odd attitude.

--------------------
I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757

 - Posted      Profile for Ricardus   Author's homepage   Email Ricardus   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Zorro:
quote:
I don't understand. I don't understand how a priest can hear such things and not act. Setting aside the punishment aspect, if you know someone is hurting a child, how can you not act immediately to stop it? I don't understand that at all. It is truly beyond my comprehension.
That's the same as me. I know that it'd be a hell of a choice for a priest, under current circumstances, to decide to break the seal, but I still think it would be worth it.
I think the problem is that, if you only consider a single incident, it probably would be worth it - but if you accept it as a general principle that the seal can be broken, then the sort of child molester who wasn't willing to give themselves up just wouldn't confess, so you wouldn't actually prevent any abuse. You would, on the other hand, end up with that sort of bogeyman Catholic priest who has the power of life and death over his congregation because he knows all their sins and can blackmail them for it.

[ 02. May 2006, 08:05: Message edited by: Ricardus ]

--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313

 - Posted      Profile for El Greco   Email El Greco   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Indeed, in the case of a child abuser we can easily believe that nobody wishes to love and forgive that person.

On the contrary. I think that especially for such cases it must be a joy to forgive and a responsibility to love. If a person who does these things understands his error and changes his ways then this is a joyful occasion on its own. A soul that has been wandering in the deepest parts of hell has turned back to God. Someone wrecked from sin and oppresed by the opponent has responded to Christ's call.

What if you were in their place? Wouldn't you need to hear that God's forgiveness is real? That evil does not conquer over good?

Sure, a lot of things need to be done afterwards. But this does not diminish the fact that someone who was spiritually dead has risen. After all, isn't this why God sustained him in life after all, even after committing these crimes?

--------------------
Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.

Posts: 11285 | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313

 - Posted      Profile for El Greco   Email El Greco   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Zorro:
I find myself wondering what view God might take on priests who stood by and watched as children had their lives screwed up.

While God intervened and strucked the person that did this down?

--------------------
Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.

Posts: 11285 | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
ed the big crazy bear
Apprentice
# 11330

 - Posted      Profile for ed the big crazy bear   Email ed the big crazy bear   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
What good is a man's word if it is conditional? It hardly ceases to be a promise at all...
My suggestion would be is to assure the confessor, before you start that you cannot keep anything illegal confidential. This is what my Dad does as a Prison Chaplain, it would endanger the lives of others if he didn't. The burden is then on the confessor wether to make his actions public or not. But he can be assured that anything within the law would be confidential.

Posts: 28 | From: Bristol | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by andreas1984:
quote:
Originally posted by Zorro:
I find myself wondering what view God might take on priests who stood by and watched as children had their lives screwed up.

While God intervened and strucked the person that did this down?
Except in 99.9999% of the cases, God doesn't. It might be a better world if God did so all the time; it might be a far worse one; I don't know. It would definitely be a different world.

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313

 - Posted      Profile for El Greco   Email El Greco   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by ed the big crazy bear:
My suggestion would be is to assure the confessor, before you start that you cannot keep anything illegal confidential.

Sex between members of the same gender was illegal a few years ago. So did adultery and fornication. If these things become again illegal one day, should priests turn homosexuals over to the police? Should priests turn unmarried people that have sex over to the police? Should priests turn adulterers over to the police?

I think that this would make the Church part of this world, a secular institution, instead of the divine-human organism that She (should be) is.

You cannot judge the Church by the standards of e.g. the law of Britain. What about the laws in China? Or other parts of the world? And why use modern laws as a standard? Do you assume that they won't change? What if they change?

The judgement of the Dreadful Judge is much more important than serving time in prison. Besides, I think that the people that ask from the Church to change the sacrament of confession, ignore the fact that a lot of things must be done AFTER confession so that the person can be "rehabilitated" in the Church. Confession is not the end. There is a road ahead that leads to full communion with the body of Christ, and this road is not easy to walk.

--------------------
Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.

Posts: 11285 | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cosmo
Shipmate
# 117

 - Posted      Profile for Cosmo         Edit/delete post 
As Triple Tiara points out, the people who get most het up about these are by and large those who have never and will never hear a sacramental confession. And as TT also said, hearing confessions is one of the most rewarding parts of a priest's ministry.

Thos who get so het up must learn to recognise that there is a great deal of flexibility in the way that confessions are made and the way in which the priest hears them. For example, one has to judge whether or not the person making the confession is properly contrite (the Sydney Diocese archetype of confession of 'Slept with a prostitute, merrily went along to Farm St to confess to cynical priest who then has fun telling his brother clergy all about the details, got three Hail Mary's and went out to lunch', being a little unhelpful to say the least). One has to see whether the person is simply making things up for fun (which happens). And, for things like Child Abuse or murder or rape there is always the witholding of absolution and the insistence of the penitent giving up himself to the authorities before absolution is given or, as TT again points out, the breaking off of the formal confession in order to absolve the priest of secrecy. A true pentient in such a case would not mind.

The hearing of confessions is a much more subtle art than the films have everybody believe.

But what is not up for discussion is the Seal of the Confessional. That is inviolate (except in the case that by not revealing the confession the priest himself might be convicted of a crime and put to death), inviolate, inviolate. Even in the most serious of cases (and who is to decide what is or is not truly serious).

If I knew who Nightlamp was I would never tell him anything even vaguely confidential about myself or anybody else either under the Seal or outside. How on earth can I trust him (or any other priest who admits to breaking confidences, big or small) to keep anything quiet?

Cosmo

Posts: 2375 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206

 - Posted      Profile for Thurible   Email Thurible   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo:

If I knew who Nightlamp was I would never tell him anything even vaguely confidential about myself or anybody else either under the Seal or outside. How on earth can I trust him (or any other priest who admits to breaking confidences, big or small) to keep anything quiet?

Cosmo

Exactly what I was thinking. I know it's a 'confidence' but I tend to think of someone's sacramental confession as something more than that - 'a confidence' puts it on the same level as Grandma's surprise party for her 90th birthday.

Thurible

--------------------
"I've been baptised not lobotomised."

Posts: 8049 | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Triple Tiara

Ship's Papabile
# 9556

 - Posted      Profile for Triple Tiara   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
I don't understand. I don't understand how a priest can hear such things and not act. Setting aside the punishment aspect, if you know someone is hurting a child, how can you not act immediately to stop it? I don't understand that at all. It is truly beyond my comprehension.

I don't either, Erin. I have never been presented with the situation so I have never had to deal with it. I really do not know how I would react - that's something else entirely.

Zorro, you seem to think everything a Catholic does is out of fear or the threat of excommunication. I do not even think about that as an issue - it's not what motivates me to preserve the seal at all. Rather, I would preserve the seal come what may because it is holy ground - it's the place where sin, evil and the devil are defeated.

There is a big difference between a conversation presuming a confidence and the sacrament of confession. There is none of the same constraint on a confidential conversation. But I really do shudder at the thought that clergy would assume it is their responsibility to be handing those who come to see them over to the police on any matter whatsoever.

Thank you Cosmo for a very useful post. Your post restored my respect for and confidence in the Anglican clergy!

--------------------
I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.

Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266

 - Posted      Profile for Nightlamp   Email Nightlamp   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:

There is a big difference between a conversation presuming a confidence and the sacrament of confession.

Only in your mind and church tradition not in reality.

--------------------
I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313

 - Posted      Profile for El Greco   Email El Greco   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:

There is a big difference between a conversation presuming a confidence and the sacrament of confession.

Only in your mind and church tradition not in reality.
God has spoken, people. God has spoken.

--------------------
Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.

Posts: 11285 | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266

 - Posted      Profile for Nightlamp   Email Nightlamp   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo:

How on earth can I trust him (or any other priest who admits to breaking confidences, big or small) to keep anything quiet?

Sometimes (probably only rarely) confidences have to be broken for the greater good.

--------------------
I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sine Nomine

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66

 - Posted      Profile for Sine Nomine   Email Sine Nomine   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:

There is a big difference between a conversation presuming a confidence and the sacrament of confession.

Only in your mind and church tradition not in reality.
Actually the very fact you used the phrase "church tradition" implies it's a lot of people's reality over a lot of years.

Even if it's not your reality.

--------------------
Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...

Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4 
 
Post new thread  
Thread closed  Thread closed
Open thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools