homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Ship's Locker   » Limbo   » Purgatory: Bareback Mountain (Page 2)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Bareback Mountain
Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7

 - Posted      Profile for Wood   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
All cowboy movies are actually about gay men, aren't they?

No, this isn't me yanking any chains - I'm at least 65% serious.

--------------------
Narcissism.

Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sine Nomine

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66

 - Posted      Profile for Sine Nomine   Email Sine Nomine   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
And Sine, if you've been "waiting and waiting" for someone to start a Heaven thread, why didn't you do it? Clearly your "new thread" button isn't broken because, well, here we are. So what is your excuse?

Because, like Sherlock Holmes, I thought it was more significant that the dog didn't bark, which seemed Purgatorial.

And also I thought there were issues around it more than just the movie itself.

That's why.

(However if I see 'The Producers' this weekend, I'll put that in Heaven. And watch it wither and die.)

--------------------
Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...

Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266

 - Posted      Profile for Nightlamp   Email Nightlamp   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The first Romantic film discssion on the ship is in purgatory. Strange.

--------------------
I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sine Nomine

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66

 - Posted      Profile for Sine Nomine   Email Sine Nomine   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
See that's just the thing. I didn't find it 'romantic'. I saw it as soul-destroying. Everybody lost.

I felt a lot sorrier for their wives than I did for them. A lot sorrier.

--------------------
Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...

Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169

 - Posted      Profile for Grits   Author's homepage   Email Grits   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Another reason I wouldn't see it. Most of what I've read about it talks about how devastating it is, and frankly, I don't want to be devastated by a movie. Life can do that just fine on its own, usually. I might read the story, however. Hadn't really thought about that.

--------------------
Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.

Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643

 - Posted      Profile for dj_ordinaire   Author's homepage   Email dj_ordinaire   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I've not been to see it, but then I almost never go to the cinema - two hours of frenetic 11-year olds continuously texting one another over a distance of about three yards ain't my idea of fun.

Interestingly, a couple of gay commentators in the UK have written columns in broadsheets (Independent and Times, neither content available, I don't think) suggesting that Brokeback is less of a great leap forward than some have portrayed it. Both independently argued that it conforms to the stereotype of the 'tragic gays' - either gay guys in movies are mincing celibate best friends who work in fashion design or something, or they are tragic, manly figures cursed to misery by their orientation.

Both also argued that when we see a mainstream movie in which the guy gets the guy and disappears off into Happily Ever After, then we'll actually have some progress.

Personally, I think this is a little bit churlish, though I see their point. Still, you've gotta start somewhere...

--------------------
Flinging wide the gates...

Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169

 - Posted      Profile for Grits   Author's homepage   Email Grits   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
I've not been to see it, but then I almost never go to the cinema - two hours of frenetic 11-year olds continuously texting one another over a distance of about three yards ain't my idea of fun.

If I were to see anyone taking an 11 year old into "Brokeback Mountain", it would be really hard for me not to say something.
quote:
Both also argued that when we see a mainstream movie in which the guy gets the guy and disappears off into Happily Ever After, then we'll actually have some progress.
Didn't we have that years ago in "The Birdcage"? I guess the reviewers meant two macho or mainstreamy type guys.

--------------------
Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.

Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sine Nomine

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66

 - Posted      Profile for Sine Nomine   Email Sine Nomine   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Both independently argued that it conforms to the stereotype of the 'tragic gays' - either gay guys in movies are mincing celibate best friends who work in fashion design or something, or they are tragic, manly figures cursed to misery by their orientation.

Of course it starts in 1963 I believe. Wouldn't have the same impact if it were set in 2006. Although I know plenty of people in similar situations even today. But they tend to finally wake up and smell the roses, as it were.

--------------------
Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...

Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

 - Posted      Profile for Erin   Author's homepage   Email Erin       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
And Sine, if you've been "waiting and waiting" for someone to start a Heaven thread, why didn't you do it? Clearly your "new thread" button isn't broken because, well, here we are. So what is your excuse?

Because, like Sherlock Holmes, I thought it was more significant that the dog didn't bark, which seemed Purgatorial.

And also I thought there were issues around it more than just the movie itself.

Why? Why did you automatically assume the worst?

--------------------
Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

 - Posted      Profile for Twilight     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Like Sophie, we'll go to the "big" movies so husband can see King Kong while I yawn in boredom; then six months from now I'll rent Brokeback Mountain at the video store and probably like it very much. Remains of the Day is one of my favorite movies, but I don't think of it as two people mooning over each other so much as a character study, (which is why I agree about Philip Seymour Roth -- his portrayal of the compulsive gambler was awesome).

Another favorite movie of mine is Far From Heaven. Mr T. and I both thought Dennis Quaid's scene kissing another man was very moving and not at all icky. I think this is another movie where the wife was focused on as the more tragic character.

What would you say about E.M. Forster's Maurice? Not a movie, but PBS did a Masterpiece Theatre series of it (probably originally a BBC drama.) The ending was sort of "happily ever after", in that the two main characters went off to live together, but then the book implies that by doing so, they have set themselves beyond the pale of polite society. That was set in the 1930's!

Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
IconiumBound
Shipmate
# 754

 - Posted      Profile for IconiumBound   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Brokeback Mountain is NOT a gay cowboy movie. As I found out watcvhing Gene Sheppard's review on the Today Show (He didn't particularly like it) the clips that were shon reveal that these two men are shepherds not cow punchers. And we all know what shepherds do for sex.
Posts: 1318 | From: Philadelphia, PA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

 - Posted      Profile for ChastMastr   Author's homepage   Email ChastMastr   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
don't like slow-moving films about tragic relationships.

My own reason for not seeing it summed up beautifully. [Overused]

If the movie was about hot studly cowboys living happily ever after, I'd be much more keen on it. But I'm the kind of person for whom King Kong is too tragic to watch even though I would love to see Kong vs. dinos for hours.

David

--------------------
My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

 - Posted      Profile for ChastMastr   Author's homepage   Email ChastMastr   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
(However if I see 'The Producers' this weekend, I'll put that in Heaven. And watch it wither and die.)

Join (Infinite Crisis) the (Infinite Crisis) club! (Infinite Crisis) [Waterworks] [Waterworks] [Waterworks]

David
(Infinite Crisis)

--------------------
My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169

 - Posted      Profile for Grits   Author's homepage   Email Grits   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
But I'm the kind of person for whom King Kong is too tragic to watch...

My older son (who is sensitive to what he watches, like me) went to see "King Kong". When I asked him how it was, he said, "Great, but I didn't know Kong died in the end." And I know that probably bothered him. I sometimes think he's even more naive than me, if that's possible.

--------------------
Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.

Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549

 - Posted      Profile for Dafyd   Email Dafyd   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I went to see it a couple of days ago.

I would say that it is very good, very sad, not a Western (if by Western we mean Stagecoach, or The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly) and I think calling it a gay film is slightly misleading. That is, the word 'gay' implies certain cultural expectations and part of the point of the film is that one of the two leads (Ellis) never reconciles his love of the other with the variety of possible cultural roles available.
From a 'they've made cowboys gay!' perspective, Ellis is the more threatening character. Jack Twist is more willing to live up to the cultural role of 'a gay man passing for straight'. Ellis' emotional focus seems to be much more based on the cultural fascination of the man alone in the wilderness.
Anyway, it has a lot to think about in relation to sexual identity and desire and other relationships (as they say, both the wives are treated poorly in different ways), as well as being a high-class weepy.

(I don't mind slow-moving emotional films as such. The problem is that a lot of slow-moving sad emotional films is that the emotion is false. All those people dying of terminal diseases who still have beautiful hair and skin.)

Dafyd

--------------------
we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28

 - Posted      Profile for Nicolemr   Author's homepage   Email Nicolemr   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Now, like I said, I haven't yet seen the movie, but I have read the story it's based on. And if the movie is at all faithful to the story, then I'm with whoever it was who said this isn't a romance, it's a tragedy. (Sine, was that you?) Personally, I have nothing against tragedy, when the tragic ending is whats called for, which is one reason I want to see the movie. The story itself is more of a condemnation of the constraints of society that made the sad ending more-or-less inevitable.

--------------------
On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

 - Posted      Profile for RuthW     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
The first Romantic film discssion on the ship is in purgatory. Strange.

Nope, the recent version of "Pride and Prejudice" and the one with Colin Firth getting wet plus the older BBC one have all been discussed in Heaven. I know, I was there!
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

 - Posted      Profile for ChastMastr   Author's homepage   Email ChastMastr   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I would also say that one of the actors going on about how difficult it was to do the romantic scenes with another guy gets kind of old after a while. Shades of Hal "I'm not gay, I just play a character who is" Sparks! [Roll Eyes] No one ever feels the need to make sure everyone knows they're not really the role they're playing the rest of the time.

--------------------
My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Laura
General nuisance
# 10

 - Posted      Profile for Laura   Email Laura   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
The first Romantic film discssion on the ship is in purgatory. Strange.

Nope, the recent version of "Pride and Prejudice" and the one with Colin Firth getting wet plus the older BBC one have all been discussed in Heaven. I know, I was there!
Mmmmmm. Me too.

But as for your theory that it's because I'm happily married, you're sadly off regarding me, anyway. I've always hated long drawn out unfulfillable longing movies. And it isn't short attention span like Erin. I always feel like they've made my favorite movies too short. P&P the BBC version was just about the right length for that book adaptation, and even then they f*ed up the last few chapters (stop ending the film with the wedding and use some of the great post-marital dialogue and story, please!).

But just to show how filmhandicapped I am, I also can't/won't go see movies containing any of the following themes, no matter how acclaimed they are:
  • busloads of children dying
  • kidnapping
  • bizarre sexual abuse
  • films in which the primary character is wrongly prosecuted/persecuted for a horrible crime he didn't commit (i.e., the entire "Fugitive" genre)
  • truly creepy bloody horror (as opposed to B movie horror which I adore)
  • the Holocaust
  • four hours of tragic love and unfulfilled yearning
  • anything with more explosions than syllables uttered
  • war movies that are very realistic
  • grainy depressing "brilliant and provocative" eastern European or French movies about any subject
  • most comedies in which the main character is a plucky talking animal (I liked Babe, though. But I'd argue that's a drama)


[ 11. January 2006, 15:01: Message edited by: Laura ]

--------------------
Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Laura
General nuisance
# 10

 - Posted      Profile for Laura   Email Laura   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by nicolemrw:
Personally, I have nothing against tragedy, when the tragic ending is whats called for, which is one reason I want to see the movie. The story itself is more of a condemnation of the constraints of society that made the sad ending more-or-less inevitable.

They always screw up endings when they adapt books. In The Natural, for example, the Doctorow book has [spoiler alert] the ironic ending -- he swings for real, meaning to try (not to throw the game) but misses and is thought then to have deliberately thrown the game. Ironic! Complex! Like real life!

The movie, of course, has him swinging and hitting it out of the park, natch. We don't like that "shades of grey" stuff do we?

--------------------
Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
radclyffe hall
Shipmate
# 4560

 - Posted      Profile for radclyffe hall   Email radclyffe hall   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:

What would you say about E.M. Forster's Maurice? Not a movie, but PBS did a Masterpiece Theatre series of it (probably originally a BBC drama.) The ending was sort of "happily ever after", in that the two main characters went off to live together, but then the book implies that by doing so, they have set themselves beyond the pale of polite society. That was set in the 1930's!

Just to be pedantic there is a film based on the Forster’s book Maurice. (With Hugh Grant of all people!) The book is set in the UK in about 1912 not 1930s but was not published until 1970 after Forster had died. Forster thought the book was rather unsatisfactory but wanted to write a gay love story that didn’t end with suicide or prison. He wanted what could pass for a ‘happy ending’ within the constraints of Edwardian English society. Unlike Brokeback Montain, the two heroes think the world well lost for love.

Saw Brokeback Mountain last night with spouse, didn’t find the gay sex threatening or icky, however did find the whole film unbearably bleak. Was there any joy in this relationship or just unmitigated misery with a bit of great sex twice a year? Or perhaps spouse and I are just too romantically minded. Spouse being an American thought it did reflect the narrowness of that time and place pretty well but agreed if it had been him he would have got on the first bus to San Francisco.

As for Ennis. He is what? 40 at the end of the film. I guess I must have engaged with him more that I realised as the idea of the lonely future stretched out before him really affected me, as certainly more appreciative of the slumbering spouse beside me last night

--------------------
I have the blues badder than a blind, bald, one-legged man sitting alone on a Mississippi veranda nursing a three-string guitar, an empty bottle of Jack Daniel's and a grudge

Posts: 247 | From: the mysterious east | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Laura
General nuisance
# 10

 - Posted      Profile for Laura   Email Laura   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Oh, I forgot to add to my list of films genres I won't see:

  • "family" comedies like Cheaper By the Dozen
  • tearjerking cancer movies

And a good friend just told me that she was depressed for three days after seeing Brokeback mountain because it was so bleak. So based on what Sine wrote of it, what she said, and what I've read here, I'd rather eat ground glass than go see it. Thanks, trusty film reviewers!

[ 11. January 2006, 16:09: Message edited by: Laura ]

--------------------
Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
John Donne

Renaissance Man
# 220

 - Posted      Profile for John Donne     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
All cowboy movies are actually about gay men, aren't they?

No, this isn't me yanking any chains - I'm at least 65% serious.

Actually, I was going to post exactly the same - except revise the percentage to about 85% serious. (See someone does read and respond to your posts Wood)

Like hello, cowboys are gay as. John Wayne, anyone? Cowboy movies are like WWF wrestling. A huge strutting, rutting, posturing, homoerotic pageant.

Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266

 - Posted      Profile for Nightlamp   Email Nightlamp   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
See that's just the thing. I didn't find it 'romantic'. I saw it as soul-destroying. Everybody lost.


A tragic romantic; Ah the kind of film I would move mountains not to watch.

--------------------
I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Bede's American Successor

Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042

 - Posted      Profile for The Bede's American Successor   Author's homepage   Email The Bede's American Successor   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
See that's just the thing. I didn't find it 'romantic'. I saw it as soul-destroying. Everybody lost.

I felt a lot sorrier for their wives than I did for them. A lot sorrier.

Yes.

Well, maybe not a lot sorrier for the wives.

It is striking to me, a person that has been in a gay relationship longer than many people are married these days, how the gay relationship did not mature over time. That stagnation would have been the natural result of the type of relationship the two men had: long distance, a few weekends a year. Everything they did was up on that mountain, not in their day-to-day lives.

The only person that probably didn't lose too much was the daughter that announced her marriage to daddy at the end of the movie. Yes, she lost having two parents in marriage, but she retained a relationship with both. She also had a daddy that asked the most important question, "but does he love you?" Daddy did care for both his daughters.

(And, the license plate number on that Firebird the daughter was driving at the end of the movie should have began with a "1" for Natrona County, assuming that is where she would have been living to meet her roustabout. Interestingly enough, Natrona County is where you find Texans working those oil wells, complete with the drawl—so was the daughter following in dad's footsteps? Those of us who have lived in a Great Plains state are used to figuring out where someone is from in the state by looking at the plates on their car. Sorry. I guess there is still a part of me out living with the cowboys that probably never will go away.)

--------------------
This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.

—Ezekiel 16.49

Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
ORGANMEISTER
Shipmate
# 6621

 - Posted      Profile for ORGANMEISTER         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'll probably see the movie eventually. I have a friend who was involved in the production of the film---no one famous. For those of you who have seen the film, just how graphic are the sex scenes and how much nudity are we talking about? I'd like to be forewarned.
Posts: 3162 | From: Somerset, PA - USA | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
The Bede's American Successor

Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042

 - Posted      Profile for The Bede's American Successor   Author's homepage   Email The Bede's American Successor   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ORGANMEISTER:
I'll probably see the movie eventually. I have a friend who was involved in the production of the film---no one famous. For those of you who have seen the film, just how graphic are the sex scenes and how much nudity are we talking about? I'd like to be forewarned.

Graphic enough to not leave doubts as to what is happening.

Careful enough not to show actual penetration in either the same-gender or opposite-gender scenes.

There are bare breasts on the opposite-gender scenes.

The actual full-frontal nudity on men is suprisingly limited, considering the topic. It is there, but could have legitimately been much more without being voyeuristic. We have two men tending sheep on a mountain by themselves at the beginning of the movie. For example, there are scenes of them doing "normal ablutions," which were done realistically but sensitively.

There is a scene where the two men jump off a cliff while skinny dipping. It will take stop-action on a DVD player to really see anything "of interest." (See my comment about 18 year old queans, above.)

You did not see this type of realism in John Wayne movies. You'd think his characters never urinated. At the same time, the realism was not voyeuristically done.

PS to Grits: While I understand your concerns about 11 or 12 year olds seeing this movie, I think there are some (limited number) out there that could see it. There are some 12-year-old-going-on-25 types that have probably already researched "the topic" on the Internet, and are already having fantasies about it. But, I agree with your caution in most cases. For teenagers that express an intrest and have the maturity, it could open many avenues of discussion about what love really is between two people and how important that is. This movie does have a message that love is based on more than mere physical acts, and should mature over time. "But does he really love you." (The father really does love his daughter in an appropriate way.)

--------------------
This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.

—Ezekiel 16.49

Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Bede's American Successor

Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042

 - Posted      Profile for The Bede's American Successor   Author's homepage   Email The Bede's American Successor   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by IconiumBound:
Brokeback Mountain is NOT a gay cowboy movie. As I found out watcvhing Gene Sheppard's review on the Today Show (He didn't particularly like it) the clips that were shon reveal that these two men are shepherds not cow punchers. And we all know what shepherds do for sex.

Funny. That topic never was "discussed" in this movie. At all. It wasn't even hinted at.

Considering that I heard on more than one occasion while living in South Dakota, "Wyoming: where men are men and sheep run scared," you would have thought there might have been a hint at this. I was expecting it.

There wasn't even a hint.

This might be the most unrealistic part of the whole movie.

Don't think there is implied sexual relations only between the herders and sheep in the West. One of the bartenders at the gay bar in Everett likes to tell a story about when he owned a bar in Omak, Washington, home of the Omak Stampede. (In many ways Omak is much closer to Calgary than Seattle, in spite of what the map says.)

This bartender still looks like the tall, skinny cowboy type. At the time he wore earrings.

A rich rancher in the area brought his hands in one morning after the bartender took over the bar. They were all sitting at a table, ordering drinks and food. The rancher asked, "You have earrings. Do you fuck boys?"

His response was, "You have a cowboy hat. Do you fuck animals?"

Everyone at the table laughed, except one person. The rancher made some comment to that person along the lines of "Oh, don't tell me you've never done it."

I'll repeat, Brokeback Mountain was not done in a voyeuristic manner.

--------------------
This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.

—Ezekiel 16.49

Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Lamburnite
Shipmate
# 9516

 - Posted      Profile for Lamburnite         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I thought the movie was really wonderful. And to a certain extent it wasn't really a "gay" movie (i.e. it had nothing to do with "gay culture" but was rather about two people). It is probably one of the best movies I've seen in years.

Ang Lee showed remarkable restraint. A couple of you have mentioned that the sex/nutidy is almost too tasteful. And the tragic elements of the plot are not underlined in the usual heavyhanded Hollywood way -- I actually found it much more devastating in retrospect than while I was watching it. I also want to go back and see it again.

The theater where we saw it was packed, with as far as I could tell a majority straight crowd.

Posts: 328 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sine Nomine

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66

 - Posted      Profile for Sine Nomine   Email Sine Nomine   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Why did you automatically assume the worst?

Probably for the same reason I think people are staring at me in the check-out line at the grocery store and that I've got lung cancer every time I cough.

Paranoia.

--------------------
Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...

Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

 - Posted      Profile for Kelly Alves   Email Kelly Alves   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamburnite:

Ang Lee showed remarkable restraint. A couple of you have mentioned that the sex/nutidy is almost too tasteful. And the tragic elements of the plot are not underlined in the usual heavyhanded Hollywood way -- I actually found it much more devastating in retrospect than while I was watching it. I also want to go back and see it again.


Ang Lee is marvelous, and definitely the reason I want to see this film.

Check out his Ice Storm, Wedding Banquet, and Eat/Drink, Man/Woman for more brilliance.

[ 12. January 2006, 00:02: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Laura
General nuisance
# 10

 - Posted      Profile for Laura   Email Laura   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think Ang Lee is great, too. Loved Wedding Banquet.

--------------------
Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Saw it on Tuesday and was deeply moved. Long, lingering camera shots over the mountain etc. made it almost a meditation.

I have read some of the comments on International Movie Database - a common statement is to the effect that people were haunted by the film for several days/weeks.

It is playing to huge, largely 'straight' audiences in the UK if my multiplex is anything to go by.

Conservative church people ought to see it to consider the effects of repression that encourage gay men to get married in the hope of a cure.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Talmudnik
Shipmate
# 9339

 - Posted      Profile for Talmudnik   Email Talmudnik   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Saw the film twice with different friends. The first thought that it was too slow moving, the other sobbed most of the way through it. The crowd in the cinemas on both occasions were totally mixed: men, women, young, old, straight, gay, you name it.

People seem to be hung up on the sex in the flick. If that's what you want to see, check out the back room of the local video store, 'cause you aren't going to get your fill with this incredible movie.

And if you're not into violence, be prepared for a couple of horrific violent scenes in the movie.

The acting is some of the finest that I've seen come out of H'wood - Michelle Williams should definitely get best supporting actress. Soundtrack is brilliant, even Willie Nelson sounded better against the backdrop of this film. And the scenary made me reminisce of a trip through the Alberta/BC Rockies; incredible shots of the mountains and the Bow River.

A review in the print edition of the NY Times (16/17.12.05?) spoke of the film being about the last remaining icon of masculinity in American culture, the cowboy, being realistically portrayed through 2 guys that love each other and societal pulls that keep them from happiness. Perhaps, that's where some people's issue with the film arises. In the same vein, it bears a striking resemblance to Yossi and Jagger - an Israeli film (www.yossieandjagger.com) about 2 IDF soldiers that fall in love and struggle to keep their relationship secret (based on a true story). Like Brokeback, the one who wants the two to be together dies, leaving the hold-out to mourn.

You'll probably want to go home and bawl your eyes out after seeing the film (very WASP'ish to hold it in), but it'll be one of the best films you'll ever see.

--------------------
The longest journey you'll ever take is from this world to the next. Make sure you are prepared. R' Yaakov Culi, MeAm Lo'ez

Posts: 576 | From: Montreal | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
The Bede's American Successor

Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042

 - Posted      Profile for The Bede's American Successor   Author's homepage   Email The Bede's American Successor   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
May I post my one (to date) rant against this movie?

Brokeback Mountain gives the idea that anal sex is the way for gay men to have sexual relations, without exception. This promotes a stereotype that just simply isn't true.

quote:
Anal sex for many seems like a taboo activity, and much of society still shuns it. But statistics show that roughly 35% of heterosexuals and 50% of the gay community practice anal sex at least occasionally. —"Anal Sex" from Sexual Health InfoCenter

quote:
Some people presume that sex between men will involve anal penetration. In a national study carried out in Britain in the 1990s however, it was discovered that between a quarter and a third of homosexual men have never had anal sex as either the penetrative or receptive partner. In recent years, since it has become clear that penetrative sex is a particularly risky activity with regard to HIV, quite a lot of men who previously had penetrative sex have altered their behaviour. —"What do gay men and lesbian women do?" on AVERT.ORG
Even if gay, you don't have to do anal sex if you don't want to. Full stop.

I have a friend that probably has less than a year to live due to a reoccurrence of anal cancer that has said more than once in the past year "I wish someone had told me when I was young that I didn't have to do it." I think there is evidence out there that anal sex is not the sine qua non for gay men.

Also, first sexual relations between our two heros in this movie qualifies as "rough trade." It doesn't have to be that way.

I am not saying that there isn't anal sex out there, or some relations between men aren't rough. Some do enjoy it.

I am saying that I wish Lee had avoided those stereotypes. This movie has enough on its plate already.

Or, did Lee follow these stereotypes to make the movie believable to a straight audience? (Brother Sine: Here is a good Purgatorial discussion about this movie.)

--------------------
This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.

—Ezekiel 16.49

Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
likeness
Shipmate
# 2773

 - Posted      Profile for likeness   Email likeness   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Ang Lee is marvelous, and definitely the reason I want to see this film.

Check out his Ice Storm, Wedding Banquet, and Eat/Drink, Man/Woman for more brilliance.

Couldn't agree more about Ang - also recommend Sense & Sensibility, Ride With The Devil, the wonderful Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and (although it's flawed) Hulk. One of the great Studio directors currently working in Hollywood IMHO.

However Brokeback Mountain is for me one of his weakest. Great first half hour (all the stuff up the mountain, which incidentally looks terrific on the big screen and will lose much impact on smaller screen DVD), but some of the later scenes lay it on with a trowel. There's also an unintentionally hilarious scene where one character's wife sees her husband and his male companion having a grope outside the house.

I've nothing against the gay subject matter - the same director's less ambitious, earlier effort The Wedding Banquet is far more impressive - but I couldn't help feeling BM pushes all the right buttonms to get liberal critics gushing rapturous responses while not actually being a particularly competently made film from a director who normally creates masterpieces as a matter of course.

--------------------
The eye is the lamp of the body.

Posts: 464 | From: No. 43 | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

 - Posted      Profile for Kelly Alves   Email Kelly Alves   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by likeness:
I've nothing against the gay subject matter - the same director's less ambitious, earlier effort The Wedding Banquet is far more impressive - but I couldn't help feeling BM pushes all the right buttonms to get liberal critics gushing rapturous responses while not actually being a particularly competently made film from a director who normally creates masterpieces as a matter of course.

I hear you-- and wil keep this in mind when i see the film.

As an example of what you are talking about--a little film called Go Fish,directed by Rose Troche. A little black-and-white number dealing with the lives of a sort of commune of lesbians. Directing? Wonderful. Cinematography? Beautiful (and black and white! [Eek!] )Love scenes? Exciting. Script was witty and insightful, casting not bad-- except the acting was like a tenth grade production of Our Town. You could totally tell that the director just got a bunch of her friends together that fit the general type she was trying to portray, and didn't care much about their acting ability. Their line delivery was not worthy of bad porn.

But it is still hailed as a paragon of gay cinema.

Allison Anders better get her butt moving. Gay Cinema needs her.

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sine Nomine

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66

 - Posted      Profile for Sine Nomine   Email Sine Nomine   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by likeness:
There's also an unintentionally hilarious scene where one character's wife sees her husband and his male companion having a grope outside the house.

What did you think was unintentionally hilarious about it?

--------------------
Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...

Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
duchess

Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764

 - Posted      Profile for duchess   Email duchess   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I grew up in the Bay Area and already know plenty of gay men that look "straight" and are "cowboys". They had Country Night at Hamburger Mary's every Wed. for years, you could see them lined around the block in San Jose.

Don't need no movie to enlightened this conservative bible-banger on that. I already know men who are straight that dress like women and gay men who have helped me figure out what was wrong with my car, grease monkey. Stereotypes suck of any type. Besides, they are boring.

Besides not needing enlightment, [insert Laura's list here [Overused] ]. Thanks.

duchess looks next to her to see if her mother looks over her shoulder to read what she is writing...probably but here it goes...

I am already suffering, I mean, watching "Country Boys". Mother Duchess neglected to tell me that it is six cotton-picking hours long! Help me Jesus. If I make it through...I might start a thread on it.

[eta: I hate Heath Ledger too for no apparent reason. He just bores me silly. Even sticking Simon Le Bon singing in that movie as a gay cowboy would not get me to watch it. Well, maybe 2 mintues to see what he was wearing.]

[ 16. January 2006, 01:14: Message edited by: duchess ]

--------------------
♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party

Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

 - Posted      Profile for RuthW     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
OK, seen it now ...

quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
quote:
Originally posted by likeness:
There's also an unintentionally hilarious scene where one character's wife sees her husband and his male companion having a grope outside the house.

What did you think was unintentionally hilarious about it?
I didn't find this scene at all funny, and I am floored that someone did. I thought the look on the young wife's face was heartbreaking.

quote:
Originally posted by likeness:
I couldn't help feeling BM pushes all the right buttonms to get liberal critics gushing rapturous responses while not actually being a particularly competently made film from a director who normally creates masterpieces as a matter of course.

What buttons did you think the movie pushed?

quote:
Originally posted by Bede's American Successor:
Brokeback Mountain gives the idea that anal sex is the way for gay men to have sexual relations, without exception. This promotes a stereotype that just simply isn't true.

I don't think the movie gives this idea at all. It doesn't portray this relationship as standing for all or most or even many gay relationships. It's very clearly one relationship between two specific people under specific circumstances. There's no reason to think that what these gay guys do is what all gay guys do.

Also, I find it a bit patronizing that you feel the need to inform us that lots of gay men don't have anal sex.

Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
jlg

What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98

 - Posted      Profile for jlg   Email jlg   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Still haven't seen the movie (it finally showed up in my region a few days ago, but not at any convenient location).

Ruth, with all due respect, I think Bede has a point. The average person (especially the older ones) in my rather conservative small-town, insulated middle/lower-class environs probably does imagine that male gay sex is pretty much all vigorous anal humping with no affection or love.

Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

 - Posted      Profile for RuthW     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by jlg:
Ruth, with all due respect, I think Bede has a point. The average person (especially the older ones) in my rather conservative small-town, insulated middle/lower-class environs probably does imagine that male gay sex is pretty much all vigorous anal humping with no affection or love.

Sure, but he's not talking to them. He's talking to folks on the Ship, and more specifically he's talking to people interested enough in this movie to click on a thread about it. I'd bet that's a very different demographic.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sine Nomine

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66

 - Posted      Profile for Sine Nomine   Email Sine Nomine   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
You know, Bede, I'm not sure a dark, fuzzy scene of them sixty-nining each other in the tent would have worked quite as well. At least the way they did it got the point across without being too graphic. If you knew what they were doing, you knew what they were doing, if that makes any sense.

(I'm reminded of the first time I saw Gone with the Wind as a kid and had no idea why Rhett carried Scarlett up the stairs, or why she was smiling and humming the next morning in bed. Not that the tent scene in Brokeback wasn't a lot more graphic, but still it wasn't porn or anything like that.)

--------------------
Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...

Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Laura
General nuisance
# 10

 - Posted      Profile for Laura   Email Laura   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
(I'm reminded of the first time I saw Gone with the Wind as a kid and had no idea why Rhett carried Scarlett up the stairs, or why she was smiling and humming the next morning in bed.

I remember that, too. I thought she'd maybe had a pillow fight and had decided she liked him (I saw it too young to get very much about it the first time).

--------------------
Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Bede's American Successor

Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042

 - Posted      Profile for The Bede's American Successor   Author's homepage   Email The Bede's American Successor   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by jlg:
Ruth, with all due respect, I think Bede has a point. The average person (especially the older ones) in my rather conservative small-town, insulated middle/lower-class environs probably does imagine that male gay sex is pretty much all vigorous anal humping with no affection or love.

Sure, but he's not talking to them. He's talking to folks on the Ship, and more specifically he's talking to people interested enough in this movie to click on a thread about it. I'd bet that's a very different demographic.
Ruth, I sugget you put the hankie down and listen to jlg for a moment. Why would everyone reading and writing about Brokeback Mountain on SoF be a liberal "peace-first" hankie squeezer?

Actually, Ruth, I am surprised that you think that the only people that would read this thread are those who know better. I seem to remember a bit of a disturbance in the force when we had a certain Mardi Gras discussion last spring. People that weren't interested in The Rites of Fall in Gay Australia did express their opinion about it.

Instead, I would expect there are a fair number of people, lurkers and posters, that thins like this article from Christianity Today:
quote:
The film has already earned seven nominations for the Golden Globes, and multiple Oscar nominations are all but certain to follow. Ledger and Williams—who both earned Globes noms—especially stand out, both conveying reams of emotion with dialogue that probably only covers a few pages. But as much as Brokeback Mountain is being touted as a groundbreaking movie for its depictions of homosexuality, it is populated with people with conventional attitudes about homosexuality. And though it's presented as a story of thwarted love—of ache and longing and regrets—it's also ultimately a story about the relationships that shape us … for better and for worse. (emphasis added)
There has also been some controvery over the use of the word "sexual predator" to describe Jack Twist. Gene Shalit clarifies what he meant. (I happen to think there is more than a bit of truth in Gene Shalit's original review, although I appreciate his clarification.)

Another point to remember that there are people that show up on SoF that are questioning. I don't want some 18 year old that is wondering what his orientation is to think that the Great Example of 2005™ is the Only Example of 2005™. This movie only gives one example—one that did exist then and still exists today. Still, no one's fate requires them to follow it.

--------------------
This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.

—Ezekiel 16.49

Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Bede's American Successor

Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042

 - Posted      Profile for The Bede's American Successor   Author's homepage   Email The Bede's American Successor   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
You know, Bede, I'm not sure a dark, fuzzy scene of them sixty-nining each other in the tent would have worked quite as well. At least the way they did it got the point across without being too graphic. If you knew what they were doing, you knew what they were doing, if that makes any sense.

I am not saying that, given the circumstances, the type of affair had by two men in that situation would not have been like their relationship. And, it was done well in the movie to keep it from becoming pornographic.

My concern is that there will be those that think that this is the only way it happens. Art carries the ability to become reality.

How many of us conflate Shakespeare's Julius Caesar with what we (should have) read in World History class? How many people think that a Scarlet Letter was really used as a punishment in colonial New England?

Of course, maybe I am making a mountain out of a molehill. Most people don't know or care what Miss Kitty's occupation was.

--------------------
This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.

—Ezekiel 16.49

Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

 - Posted      Profile for RuthW     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by jlg:
Ruth, with all due respect, I think Bede has a point. The average person (especially the older ones) in my rather conservative small-town, insulated middle/lower-class environs probably does imagine that male gay sex is pretty much all vigorous anal humping with no affection or love.

Sure, but he's not talking to them. He's talking to folks on the Ship, and more specifically he's talking to people interested enough in this movie to click on a thread about it. I'd bet that's a very different demographic.
Ruth, I sugget you put the hankie down
I suggest you stop being rude.

quote:
Why would everyone reading and writing about Brokeback Mountain on SoF be a liberal "peace-first" hankie squeezer?
Only liberals know anything about gay sex?

quote:
Actually, Ruth, I am surprised that you think that the only people that would read this thread are those who know better.
But I didn't say this. I said the demographic of the Ship is not the same as that of jlg's small town. There may very well be people who don't know better. But has anyone here demonstrated such ignorance? Not that I can see.

quote:
I seem to remember a bit of a disturbance in the force when we had a certain Mardi Gras discussion last spring. People that weren't interested in The Rites of Fall in Gay Australia did express their opinion about it.
Most people don't bother to express opinions about things they're not interested in. Many of them don't even bother to form opinions about things they're not interested in. The postings that no doubt made you rather unhappy were not from people who weren't interested.

And you make a big mistake if you assume that everyone who does not approve of homosexuality and gay sex knows nothing of what gay guys actually do.

quote:
Instead, I would expect there are a fair number of people, lurkers and posters, that thins like this article from Christianity Today:
quote:
The film has already earned seven nominations for the Golden Globes, and multiple Oscar nominations are all but certain to follow. Ledger and Williams—who both earned Globes noms—especially stand out, both conveying reams of emotion with dialogue that probably only covers a few pages. But as much as Brokeback Mountain is being touted as a groundbreaking movie for its depictions of homosexuality, it is populated with people with conventional attitudes about homosexuality. And though it's presented as a story of thwarted love—of ache and longing and regrets—it's also ultimately a story about the relationships that shape us … for better and for worse. (emphasis added)
There has also been some controvery over the use of the word "sexual predator" to describe Jack Twist. Gene Shalit clarifies what he meant. (I happen to think there is more than a bit of truth in Gene Shalit's original review, although I appreciate his clarification.)
Yes, conventional attitudes about homosexuality. Not just about homosexual sex. You of all people ought to know these are not the same thing. You're trying to make this movie out to be all about sex, and it's not. "Christianity Today" talks about conventional attitudes toward homosexuality, and you take that as justification for your concern that people will think all gay guys have anal sex? That's a huge and unwarranted leap.

Furthermore, I find it entirely plausible that men in rural Wyoming in the 60s would have absorbed conventional attitudes about homosexuality. It was one of the many tragedies of pre-Stonewall America that so many gays and lesbians were thoroughly inculcated with anti-homosexual attitudes that colored their attitudes toward themselves and their sexuality.

I disagree with you about Shalit's remark. Calling Jack a sexual predator is ridiculous. The movie depicts the desire as entirely mutual.

quote:
Another point to remember that there are people that show up on SoF that are questioning. I don't want some 18 year old that is wondering what his orientation is to think that the Great Example of 2005™ is the Only Example of 2005™. This movie only gives one example—one that did exist then and still exists today. Still, no one's fate requires them to follow it.
You've tagged this movie as "The Great Example," but I don't know anyone who's looking at it that way. The movie only gives one example because it's only about one relationship. Why should it give more than one? Lots of movies about straight people's relationships focus on just one relationship. It's not exemplary in those cases, and it's not exemplary in this one.

quote:
My concern is that there will be those that think that this is the only way it happens.
Why would anyone jump to this conclusion based on one depiction of one act in one relationship in one movie? The first R-rated movie I saw in the theater was "Excalibur" when I was 18, and while I was a bit appalled, I didn't assume that the sex depicted was the only way straight people have sex.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

 - Posted      Profile for IngoB   Email IngoB   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
But I didn't say this. I said the demographic of the Ship is not the same as that of jlg's small town. There may very well be people who don't know better. But has anyone here demonstrated such ignorance? Not that I can see.

I don't want to interrupt a perfectly fine rant, but may I raise my hand at this point? I'm still reading this thread with some interest and "anal sex stats" (hetero- or homosexual ones) weren't part of my prior knowledge. And truth to be told, if someone had asked me to speculate quickly, I would probably have guessed that most homosexual men want anal sex with their partner (not that they always get their wish) at some stage. That would have been in a naive, unthinking - oh well, stupid - analogy to heterosexual men, who in general want vaginal sex with their partner (not that they always get their wish) at some stage. I note in passing that I don't think that the type of homosexual activity is terribly important with regards to approval.

Of course, this thread is not necessarily devoted to curing my individual ignorance about homosexual (or indeed heterosexual) practice. So whether TBAS' contribution was appropriate here is still open to discussion. But the argument against it from universal knowledge fails.

--------------------
They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

 - Posted      Profile for RuthW     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
But the argument against it from universal knowledge fails.

Good thing I made no such argument, then.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

 - Posted      Profile for IngoB   Email IngoB   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
But the argument against it from universal knowledge fails.

Good thing I made no such argument, then.
... universal knowledge of all Shipmates participating in this thread is what I meant.

--------------------
They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools