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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Bareback Mountain
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Renay
Shipmate
# 8463
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Posted
My mother and I saw the movie last month in Houston. There was a fairly large crowd. We thought the movie was wonderful and very sad. The acting was superb. We both gained respect for Heath Ledger's acting abilities.
Posts: 126 | From: Texas City, Tx | Registered: Sep 2004
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badman
Shipmate
# 9634
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Posted
We saw it on Friday. I thought it was a fantastic film, one of the best I will ever see.
It looks beautiful: those open landscapes, the sheep streaming like liquid over it (somehow reminding me of the imagery of the Song of Solomon) - those who have said they will wait to see it on DVD will be missing out if they don't see it on the big screen.
The screenplay is powerfully understated and the acting too.
I didn't think it was a gay film so much as a film about relationships and about wanting the impossible - it works in the same way as "Brief Encounter" did and I think for the same reason - because it is set at a time when the relationship can't be entirely fulfilled. It's not that something that should have happened did not happen - it's that the protagonists can't be happy, their desires don't fit their world. But that's a staple of much romantic literature from Romeo and Juliet onwards, it's not a smug put down of gay people. That's why it plays to non gay audiences, surely.
It's definitely not about sex. It's a 15 certificate in the UK and there is nothing graphic in it.
The central character has to be Ennis, and surely the point about him is
**SPOILER WARNING - SCROLL DOWN ONLY IF YOU'VE SEEN THE FILM***
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the loss of ALL his relationships: with his dead parents, his siblings “lost” on their marriages, his fractured relationship with Jack Twist, his broken marriage, his unfulfilled relationship with the waitress and, finally, the “loss” of his daughter on her marriage, after his bereavement of Jack.
Posts: 429 | From: Diocese of Guildford | Registered: Jun 2005
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da_musicman
Shipmate
# 1018
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Posted
Possible Spoiler
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I didn't see his daughter getting married as being another loss. The way in which he handled it in giving his blessing but checking the man loved her said the me that he was going to try and rescue that one relationship while he still had a chance as he had lost all his other relationships. Just my tuppence worth. (Loved the film and didnt think it was at all graphic.)
Posts: 3202 | From: The Dreaming | Registered: Jul 2001
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The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
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Posted
Tom Selleck and Jackie Chan have all but ruined Western-themed (set) movies for me. ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
And, I'm with Erin on the whole theatre experience in general. Buying a DVD isn't really any more expensive than going to a feature film at an adult hour, anyway -- particularly if you're paying for two.
Longing and unrequited love are perfectly palatable themes with me. For example, I really enjoyed The Notebook. Yes, a hetero flick. Maybe I'd like the Mountainman movie. Of course, I didn't like Thelma & Louise, and for all intent and purposes, that was a homosexual-western-sadly ending-movie...
[ 16. January 2006, 17:16: Message edited by: The Riv ]
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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
Posts: 2749 | From: Too far South, USA. I really want to move. | Registered: Nov 2002
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The Bede's American Successor
Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
[QUOTE]Ruth, I sugget you put the hankie down
I suggest you stop being rude.
If you really think that comment was rude, why don't you call me to Hell over it? The discussion won't sidetrack this thread.
quote:
quote:
Why would everyone reading and writing about Brokeback Mountain on SoF be a liberal "peace-first" hankie squeezer?
Only liberals know anything about gay sex?
I think there has already been a response from another shipmate to answer that one adequately.
Please go back and re-read what I wrote. I didn't say all on SoF would jump to this conclusion. I didn't say you would jump to this conclusion. I did say I have a concern about what what might happen with some people. If you understood the meaning of my words to be anything else, I am sorry I didn't make myself clear. That is what I meant to say.
(If you want futher discussion on whether Ennis was a willing partner from the very start, I'll be happy to quote from the moview script and short story. I have no doubt that Ennis was shown to be a willing partner after getting over an initial rejection. The story and script are available in a single book, along with enlightening comments from Annie Proulx, Larry McMurtry, and Diana Ossana.)
I would also suggest you go to the movie's website and look at the "Share Your Story" section. This movie is affecting people greatly.
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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.
—Ezekiel 16.49
Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003
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ORGANMEISTER
Shipmate
# 6621
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Posted
Thelma & Louise was a homosexual movie??????????????????????????????????????
Posts: 3162 | From: Somerset, PA - USA | Registered: May 2004
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The Bede's American Successor
Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ORGANMEISTER:
Thelma & Louise was a homosexual movie??????????????????????????????????????
There were those that thought Thelma and Louise had Lesbian overtones. Then again, there are those that think that Ruth and Naomi had something going besides friendship (link to someone's retelling of the story to make their point).
I don't have an opinion on either story being more than a story of friendship, although I see where someone could draw the Lesbian conclusion.
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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.
—Ezekiel 16.49
Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003
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The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
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Posted
Duh-uh!
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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
Posts: 2749 | From: Too far South, USA. I really want to move. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
And to me the 'gay thing' was pretty much just a hook for the freedom and romance we want but don't find in the dull routine of our daily lives. For the bad choices we make, straight or gay.
And the contrast between the freedom in the mountains and the crushing dreariness of everyday life in the bleak plains was also compelling.
Frankly, I think if the guys had been able to get together they would have probably hated each other's guts inside of five years. It's easy to be romantic a couple of times a year when you're off on vacation.
But then I'm a cynic.
This is what I've heard about the film too. A film about a relationship carried on over time, but as much about the place and its affect on the two people as about the relationship itself.
Kind of like that late 70's film with Allan Alda in it, "See You Next Year" , IIRC, but without the overt cultural references.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
If you really think that comment was rude, why don't you call me to Hell over it? The discussion won't sidetrack this thread.
Because I don't have the time or the interest to pursue the matter.
quote:
Please go back and re-read what I wrote. I didn't say all on SoF would jump to this conclusion. I didn't say you would jump to this conclusion. I did say I have a concern about what what might happen with some people. If you understood the meaning of my words to be anything else, I am sorry I didn't make myself clear. That is what I meant to say.
On what is this concern based? Because I can't see why anyone would draw broad conclusions about gay people based on seeing one movie.
quote:
(If you want futher discussion on whether Ennis was a willing partner from the very start, I'll be happy to quote from the moview script and short story. I have no doubt that Ennis was shown to be a willing partner after getting over an initial rejection. The story and script are available in a single book, along with enlightening comments from Annie Proulx, Larry McMurtry, and Diana Ossana.)
Go for it. But keep in mind that the script, the story, and the movie are three different things. Just because something is there in the story and the script doesn't mean it's there in the movie.
quote:
I would also suggest you go to the movie's website and look at the "Share Your Story" section. This movie is affecting people greatly.
I'm willing to take your word for it that this movie is greatly affecting some people.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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likeness
Shipmate
# 2773
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
quote:
Originally posted by likeness:
There's also an unintentionally hilarious scene where one character's wife sees her husband and his male companion having a grope outside the house.
What did you think was unintentionally hilarious about it?
Humour, as has been noted elsewhere, is a funny thing. What makes one shipmate laugh will have no effect whatever on another's funny bone.
When I saw the film, the thing that made me laugh was the timing...the fact that the wife just happened to come out at the moment she did...obviously this could occur within the dramatic context, but I found it way too contrived...and it was that absurdist element of contrivance that I found funny.
It wasn't just me either - about a third of the audience reacted the same way. Maybe it has somethig to do with the audience that evening. You can see the same film on two occasions and the respective audiences can make the two experiences very, very different. (It doesn't sound like anyone else was in an audience which had had this experience of this scene.)
Pity, because the film had me completely in its spell up to that point.
Posts: 464 | From: No. 43 | Registered: May 2002
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likeness
Shipmate
# 2773
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
OK, seen it now ...
quote:
Originally posted by likeness:
I couldn't help feeling BM pushes all the right buttonms to get liberal critics gushing rapturous responses while not actually being a particularly competently made film from a director who normally creates masterpieces as a matter of course.
What buttons did you think the movie pushed?
Two people engage in a gay relationship. In a world which disapproves of such relationships. So they have a hard time.
There's something about this subject matter which means that people will make allowances for dramatic gaffs (i.e. not notice them) because they feel so strongly in synch with the issues articulated by the film.
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The eye is the lamp of the body.
Posts: 464 | From: No. 43 | Registered: May 2002
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The Bede's American Successor
Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
If you really think that comment was rude, why don't you call me to Hell over it? The discussion won't sidetrack this thread.
Because I don't have the time or the interest to pursue the matter.
quote:
Please go back and re-read what I wrote. I didn't say all on SoF would jump to this conclusion. I didn't say you would jump to this conclusion. I did say I have a concern about what what might happen with some people. If you understood the meaning of my words to be anything else, I am sorry I didn't make myself clear. That is what I meant to say.
On what is this concern based? Because I can't see why anyone would draw broad conclusions about gay people based on seeing one movie.
quote:
(If you want futher discussion on whether Ennis was a willing partner from the very start, I'll be happy to quote from the moview script and short story. I have no doubt that Ennis was shown to be a willing partner after getting over an initial rejection. The story and script are available in a single book, along with enlightening comments from Annie Proulx, Larry McMurtry, and Diana Ossana.)
Go for it. But keep in mind that the script, the story, and the movie are three different things. Just because something is there in the story and the script doesn't mean it's there in the movie.
quote:
I would also suggest you go to the movie's website and look at the "Share Your Story" section. This movie is affecting people greatly.
I'm willing to take your word for it that this movie is greatly affecting some people.
Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by likeness:
When I saw the film, the thing that made me laugh was the timing...the fact that the wife just happened to come out at the moment she did...obviously this could occur within the dramatic context, but I found it way too contrived...and it was that absurdist element of contrivance that I found funny.
Actually I don't remember specifically since it's been a while since I saw it, but I assume she came out to greet a guest, which would seem natural to me. Or not? But like RuthW, I was too attuned to the wife's shock to notice any possible humor in the situation.
I do remember being dismayed that the guys would let their, uh, passion get the better of them outside like that.
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by likeness:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by likeness:
I couldn't help feeling BM pushes all the right buttonms to get liberal critics gushing rapturous responses while not actually being a particularly competently made film from a director who normally creates masterpieces as a matter of course.
What buttons did you think the movie pushed?
Two people engage in a gay relationship. In a world which disapproves of such relationships. So they have a hard time.
There's something about this subject matter which means that people will make allowances for dramatic gaffs (i.e. not notice them) because they feel so strongly in synch with the issues articulated by the film.
All you said on the previous page of this thread is that "some of the later scenes lay it on with a trowel." Lay what on? What do you see as "dramatic gaffs" in this movie?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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The Bede's American Successor
Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
If you really think that comment was rude, why don't you call me to Hell over it? The discussion won't sidetrack this thread.
Because I don't have the time or the interest to pursue the matter.
Then why did you bring it up publically? A PM would have resolved this.
quote:
quote:
Please go back and re-read what I wrote. I didn't say all on SoF would jump to this conclusion. I didn't say you would jump to this conclusion. I did say I have a concern about what what might happen with some people. If you understood the meaning of my words to be anything else, I am sorry I didn't make myself clear. That is what I meant to say.
On what is this concern based? Because I can't see why anyone would draw broad conclusions about gay people based on seeing one movie.
Your opinion. My opinion. (I'm the one who gets to wear the label.)
Sometimes people draw inferences when they watch a movie, even a work of fiction. For example, my partner didn't know CS Lewis had two stepsons instead of one (based upon seeing Shadowlands).
quote:
quote:
(If you want futher discussion on whether Ennis was a willing partner from the very start, I'll be happy to quote from the moview script and short story. I have no doubt that Ennis was shown to be a willing partner after getting over an initial rejection. The story and script are available in a single book, along with enlightening comments from Annie Proulx, Larry McMurtry, and Diana Ossana.)
Go for it. But keep in mind that the script, the story, and the movie are three different things. Just because something is there in the story and the script doesn't mean it's there in the movie.
When I saw the movie, I understood that Ennis' initial reaction was repulsion when he realized that Jack had placed his hand on his groin. I feel I they carried out the script and short story, where Ennis is described as "jerk[ing] it away as if he's touched fire" (script and short story).
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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.
—Ezekiel 16.49
Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003
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RainbowKate
Shipmate
# 9331
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Posted
I haven't seen it, and don't really plan to. Westerns remind me of the years I lived in Kansas, and I'd just rather not go there. I really only like tragic love stories when set to music anyway.
Oddly enough, the only people I know in IRL that have seen it are my brother and my boss, both of whom are straight men.
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Coffee is the answer
Posts: 1227 | From: Left at the loophole | Registered: Apr 2005
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
I have my doubts that Brokeback Mountain will ever reach our local theater, although maybe some weekend I can get out of town long enough to catch a matinee over in the nearest university town.
Being unpartnered and sometimes rather morose about that, I'm not always in the mood to watch films themed around doomed/unrequited love...although it can be a little cathartic to really wallow in that for an evening. In which case I'll have to wait for the DVD, since my Wallowing In Self-Pity evenings require my PJs, afghan, fuzzy slippers and a pint of Ben & Jerry's, and they tend to frown on bringing such accoutrements into the Gem Theatre.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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KenWritez
Shipmate
# 3238
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Posted
I will be seeing it this week, I hope in the company of my very conservative cowboy father-in-law.
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"The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd." --Quentin Tarantino, Pulp Fiction
My blog: http://oxygenofgrace.blogspot.com
Posts: 11102 | From: Left coast of Wonderland, by the rabbit hole | Registered: Aug 2002
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badman
Shipmate
# 9634
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by KenWritez:
I will be seeing it this week, I hope in the company of my very conservative cowboy father-in-law.
Wow.
Do report back.
Posts: 429 | From: Diocese of Guildford | Registered: Jun 2005
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ORGANMEISTER
Shipmate
# 6621
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Posted
I know this is a tangent but..........
Riv, please explain why Thelma & Louise is a lesbian movie. I recently watched it and I would describe it as a classic American road movie and/or buddy film with women instead on men. It certainly has feminist overtones but do you equate feminism with lesbianism?
Consider Louise's reaction to her hotel room romp with young Brad Pitt when she experiences her first orgasm.......hardly something one would expect of a lesbian!
Posts: 3162 | From: Somerset, PA - USA | Registered: May 2004
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iGeek
Number of the Feast
# 777
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Posted
I saw it this past weekend with my partner.
Necessary background: I grew up in Iowa. My first "love" was a farm kid who did rodeo and 4H. My partner and I have both been formerly married to women and divorced and came out relatively late in life. We're both somewhat acquainted with the pain involved in mixed-orientation opposite-gender marriages. I'd read the short-story and have followed the development of the film in the gay cultural press (traditional media and online). I knew what to expect but approached seeing the film with a certain amount of trepidation. But we both really wanted to see this film.
Ennis' outlook and response to his feelings for Jack were clearly formed early on with the event that he recalled late in the film about the two guys who ranched together that were gay-bashed to death. He was pretty sure that his own father was involved and viewing the bashed, dead body of one of the guys made a very deep impression. One can imagine what that must have done to his emotional health during adolescence when he realised his attraction to men. An adolescence during the late 50's when being queer was very much not on.
I thought a bit about why Ennis took Jack the way he did after Jack made the first move. In my experience, the first clumsy fumblings are usually more oral. To me, it's indicative of Jack's violent relationship with his orientation. They only way he initially knows how to respond to it is by violence, hence the anal sex. Ennis is one uptight character, but he has his tender moments. There's the lovely flashback scene toward the end depicting Ennis with his arm around Jack's shoulder, nuzzling and saying sweet things.
Jack is less constrained in what he's willing to entertain as possibilities, even in the fairly conservative times and locales the story is set in. Jack has traveled more. Ennis knows very little outside of the small geographic area he has confined himself to.
The scene where Jack first comes back and meets Ennis and they hug was masterful. I could sense the almost overpowering hunger in Ennis. I've experienced that ... years of denial and then the opportunity to finally let someone know how you feel. To have that followed by Alma seeing them was like a punch in the stomach, to me. I also felt for her character -- the shock, the astonishment, the sense of developing dread that she'd never be able to be Ennis's all-in-all because he had Jack. She was also a church go-er in a conservative town. The man she slept with every night and the father of her children was a sodomite; the very worst kind of reprobate sinner. How was she supposed to deal with this?
Lureen was much more practical about her relationship with Jack. The circles she operated in were probably more sophisticated in outlook. She didn't seem all that upset relating to Ennis what had happened to Jack. But to be fair, the film didn't depict much there for us; all we have to go on is Jack's comment about being able to phone-in their relationship, or words to that effect.
Dan Savage wrote in his column in the most recent issue of Advocate about closeted, middle-aged married men (in the context of talking about James West, the outed mayor of Spokane) and is unnecessarily harsh and brutal. I think this film illuminates, at least a little, the fundamental quandry and tragedy that people in mixed-orientation, opposite gender marriagesexperience. It isn't simple ... especially in the Christian context where marriage vows are taken quite seriously and the path to reconciling faith and sexuality isn't all that clear.
I was profoundly moved by the film and am still processing it.
Posts: 2150 | From: West End, Gulfopolis | Registered: Aug 2002
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badman
Shipmate
# 9634
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by iGeek.:
Ennis' outlook and response to his feelings for Jack were clearly formed early on with the event that he recalled late in the film about the two guys who ranched together that were gay-bashed to death. He was pretty sure that his own father was involved and viewing the bashed, dead body of one of the guys made a very deep impression. One can imagine what that must have done to his emotional health during adolescence when he realised his attraction to men.
iGeek, perhaps you are particularly well qualified to answer this question for me: do you think Ennis is gay? or bisexual? or is it even a possible reading of the film that, while Jack is gay (and in a pretty much sexless marriage according to his "could do it on the telephone" description), Ennis is essentially a straight man who falls in love with Jack and has his only gay feelings for him? It's just that Ennis didn't seem to have any feelings for any other men, and seemed genuinely to desire his wife. Also, in the final conversation on Brokeback Ennis makes it clear that he expects total same-sex fidelity from Jack (which Jack says is unrealistic) which suggests that Jack is the only man for Ennis. Ennis says at the beginning "I ain't queer". Of course, he could be in denial. But is it possible that he is telling the truth?
One of the reasons I found the film so profound and thought provoking was because of complexities and ambiguities like this.
Posts: 429 | From: Diocese of Guildford | Registered: Jun 2005
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Lamburnite
Shipmate
# 9516
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Posted
There is a great interview with Heath Ledger here. Among other things, he describes Ennis as "a homophobic male in love with another man." Based on this, I'd read Ennis as someone wired to be attracted to men, but repressed enough not to pursue that except with his one grand passion (and even there wanting to circumscribe that relationship to a few times a year, in the safety of the wilderness).
Posts: 328 | Registered: May 2005
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da_musicman
Shipmate
# 1018
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Posted
Badman, That was how I read the film but no idea if I'm right or not.
Posts: 3202 | From: The Dreaming | Registered: Jul 2001
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Athrawes
Ship's parrot
# 9594
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Posted
I've just discovered this thread, and have found the posts fascinating, especially the breadth of discussion. Having said that ( and getting back to the op), I won't be seeing it as a)it's a cowboy movie,
b) it's 'soul distroying' in that no one wins - I watch movies for entertainment
c) I don't tend to like 'critically aclaimed' anything, books or movies - the ones I've read/seen have been pretentious nonsense. Maybe this is different? I *loathed* Dead Poet's Society, and a lot of people said that was worth seeing...
d) the "I won't watch these movies" list definitely applies.
I might read the book, though, as it sounds like the relationships are realistically and sensitively done.
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Explaining why is going to need a moment, since along the way we must take in the Ancient Greeks, the study of birds, witchcraft, 19thC Vaudeville and the history of baseball. Michael Quinion.
Posts: 2966 | From: somewhere with a book shop | Registered: Jun 2005
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by badman:
Ennis says at the beginning "I ain't queer". Of course, he could be in denial. But is it possible that he is telling the truth?
It depends on how you define 'queer'. If you define it as anything that doesn't fit into the model of men are sexually attracted to women and vice versa then Ellis is definitely queer. I don't think Ellis is straight. But then I don't think he is gay either.
To quote Jo Ind in her book Memories of Bliss:
'Some people are turned on by intelligence and integrity. Some people are turned on by six-inch stilettos. Some are visually stimulated. Others are word-sensitive. Some people are blonde-oriented. Others are bum-oriented...
Why place people on a heterosexual/homosexual scale rather than an SM/soft-and-fluffy or a visualsexual/auralsexual one? By thinking of people as either heterosexual, homosexual or somewhere in between there is no room for the type of arousal I described at the top of the chapter, where it is not another person who is the source of the turn-on.'
If you have to choose between gay and straight, Ellis is probably on the gay side of bisexual. But I don't think that's quite the right way to characterise him.
Dafyd
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by athroes:
I won't be seeing it as...it's a cowboy movie
I wonder if they'll push it as a 'sheep-herders movie' when it opens in New Zealand.
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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The Bede's American Successor
Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by badman:
quote:
Originally posted by iGeek.:
Ennis' outlook and response to his feelings for Jack were clearly formed early on with the event that he recalled late in the film about the two guys who ranched together that were gay-bashed to death. He was pretty sure that his own father was involved and viewing the bashed, dead body of one of the guys made a very deep impression. One can imagine what that must have done to his emotional health during adolescence when he realised his attraction to men.
iGeek, perhaps you are particularly well qualified to answer this question for me: do you think Ennis is gay? or bisexual? or is it even a possible reading of the film that, while Jack is gay (and in a pretty much sexless marriage according to his "could do it on the telephone" description), Ennis is essentially a straight man who falls in love with Jack and has his only gay feelings for him? It's just that Ennis didn't seem to have any feelings for any other men, and seemed genuinely to desire his wife. Also, in the final conversation on Brokeback Ennis makes it clear that he expects total same-sex fidelity from Jack (which Jack says is unrealistic) which suggests that Jack is the only man for Ennis. Ennis says at the beginning "I ain't queer". Of course, he could be in denial. But is it possible that he is telling the truth?
One of the reasons I found the film so profound and thought provoking was because of complexities and ambiguities like this.
Very few people peg the needle at a Kinsey 1 or a Kinsey 6. That is, very few people are absolutely het or gay. (Disclaimer: Yes, I know that Kinsey is not considered Truth and Light on sexuality issues. Yet he still gives us a few good concepts.)
This story is good at playing up this ambiguity in (most) all of us.
One of the ideas behind this story according to Proulx is that this was supposed to be a case of "situational homosexuality" gone awry (she did not use those words). That is, it is not uncommon for men to have sex with men when in situations when there are no women present (military, prisons are two examples). Outside of those situations, these men who have had sex with men would never consider it in a million years.
It was reasonable for Ennis to have been aware of that part of life. After all, my high school freshmen when I was teaching in South Dakota were aware of it. (Joke told by students: Why do cowboys have their name tooled in the back of their belts? So they know who they are doing.) That is why I believe it was possible for Ennis to have had a reaction of "touching fire" one second, and then unbuckling his belt the next second.
It also explains the "I ain't queer" statements from both men when coming down from the mountain. In most cases, that would have been the facts of the case.
The twist in this story (no pun intended) is that Ennis ends up loving Jack. Not just having sex with Jack, but loving him.
Ennis did not love his wife in the same way. Not even close. She was the mother of his children, whom he did love, but that was about it. What did it take to get Ennis to move into town? As time went on, Ennis was close to phoning in his marriage, too.
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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.
—Ezekiel 16.49
Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003
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likeness
Shipmate
# 2773
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
quote:
Originally posted by likeness:
When I saw the film, the thing that made me laugh was the timing...the fact that the wife just happened to come out at the moment she did...obviously this could occur within the dramatic context, but I found it way too contrived...and it was that absurdist element of contrivance that I found funny.
Actually I don't remember specifically since it's been a while since I saw it, but I assume she came out to greet a guest, which would seem natural to me. Or not? But like RuthW, I was too attuned to the wife's shock to notice any possible humor in the situation.
I do remember being dismayed that the guys would let their, uh, passion get the better of them outside like that.
Ah, but we're not talking real life here, were talking movies, artifice. So the thing has to convince me. And it didn't, at all.
What I'm talking about here is not the situation depicted per se, but the staging of it. The elements I mention really didn't work for me.
Incidentally, while everyone's feeling sorry for the poor wife, I thought the main characters (the ones who, in Hollywood parlance, we're supposed to root for) were the cowboys. (I think the film is structured like this regardless of whether you're a male or a female viewer.) A movie about the plight of the wife might well be compelling - but that isn't the current movie.
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The eye is the lamp of the body.
Posts: 464 | From: No. 43 | Registered: May 2002
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by likeness:
Incidentally, while everyone's feeling sorry for the poor wife, I thought the main characters (the ones who, in Hollywood parlance, we're supposed to root for) were the cowboys. (I think the film is structured like this regardless of whether you're a male or a female viewer.) A movie about the plight of the wife might well be compelling - but that isn't the current movie.
It was the current movie I saw. While the guys were definitely the main characters it was made clear, to me at least, that everybody suffered and lost. And I felt for all of them.
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RainbowKate:
I haven't seen it, and don't really plan to. Westerns remind me of the years I lived in Kansas, and I'd just rather not go there.
Must -- resist -- can't --- stop --- self -- send --- help --
But --
But --
(All together now!)
"I don't think we're in Kansas anymore!"
David
just had to, you understand ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by nicolemrw:
Hey, I've read the short story it was based on... how many other people here can say that, hmmmm? (It's a gorgeous, but sad, story. Don't know how faithful the movie is to it.)
I can. I concur that it's a well-written story; I found the movie quite faithful to it.
The film was beautiful and moving, but I didn't get around to it until after New Year's Day.
(I was wondering if the thread title was a Freudian slip....)
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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iGeek
Number of the Feast
# 777
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by badman:
do you think Ennis is gay? or bisexual? [Is] Ennis is essentially a straight man who falls in love with Jack and has his only gay feelings for him? It's just that Ennis didn't seem to have any feelings for any other men, and seemed genuinely to desire his wife. Ennis says at the beginning "I ain't queer". Of course, he could be in denial.
Last bit first: for me "queer" is a cultural label in this context. To Ennis, a "queer" is likely viewed as weak, effeminate, mincing and he knows he's none of that. I don't know about your experience, but in the context of my adolescence, to levy the charge of being "queer" or "gay" at someone was almost the worst thing that could be said and it carries a very real threat of physical harm with it. Real men aren't "queer" and if you're to find social acceptance, you'd better not even hint at it by behavior or identity.
gay, bi and straight are imperfect labels for characterising sexuality. Better systems of characterisation exist (for example: the Klein Grid) but suffice to say our sexualities are complex.
Ennis (and it is "Ennis". I checked Proulx's short story -- listen to the podcasts at QueerVisions -- and the film follows suit; it's "Ennis Del Mar") first does Jack then falls for him. He already was committed to marry Alma and the story (and the film) don't really tell us anything about his motivations on that score. Perhaps he really cared for her. Just because he loved Jack doesn't mean he can't love a woman -- they're not mutually exclusive. It's even possible to have a mutually satisfying physically intimate relationship with someone of the opposite gender and still identify as primarily or almost exclusively same-sex attracted. Or perhaps Ennis was simply fulfilling what he thought was socially expected of him. He was tightly wound and cared very much about how he was perceived by others as evidenced by his lifelong refusal to even consider the possibilities that Jack proposed -- ultimately he was trapped in a cage of expectations that he built for himself.
For this story (and for many peoples' stories) I don't think it's helpful to think in terms of gay and straight. As a label the word "Gay", especially in today's cultural context, carries a lot of political baggage that simply doesn't apply in Ennis case. We use the word as shorthand to describe someone's dominant sexuality but it's not very useful when getting into the complexities.
[code mess up. preview psot is my friend]
[ 18. January 2006, 13:19: Message edited by: iGeek. ]
Posts: 2150 | From: West End, Gulfopolis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Alices' Protégé
Apprentice
# 9041
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Posted
I went to see Brokeback last week and boy did I cry, although I was not the only one who did
it really is a fantastic fim (only came out here in uk on the 6th)
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Any mistake in a service can be covered up if you bow enough.
Posts: 14 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
When I saw the movie, I understood that Ennis' initial reaction was repulsion when he realized that Jack had placed his hand on his groin. I feel I they carried out the script and short story, where Ennis is described as "jerk[ing] it away as if he's touched fire" (script and short story).
But this doesn't necessarily indicate repulsion. I've jerked away from approaches made by men I was very attracted to because they were so unexpected. The story's metaphor of touching fire indicates pain and fright, but not repulsion.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
But this doesn't necessarily indicate repulsion. I've jerked away from approaches made by men I was very attracted to because they were so unexpected.
..or because you're so attracted to them that you over-react and all neurons fire off at once, scaring the hell out of you? Been there. I can see how it would read as repulsion, though.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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The Bede's American Successor
Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
When I saw the movie, I understood that Ennis' initial reaction was repulsion when he realized that Jack had placed his hand on his groin. I feel I they carried out the script and short story, where Ennis is described as "jerk[ing] it away as if he's touched fire" (script and short story).
But this doesn't necessarily indicate repulsion. I've jerked away from approaches made by men I was very attracted to because they were so unexpected. The story's metaphor of touching fire indicates pain and fright, but not repulsion.
This underplays what Ennis later says is his reaction to seeing the gay person dragged to death when he was a child.
A change in the movie from the original story probably underlies Ennis' confused reactions better. That is, there is no context given in the movie to Ennis throwing up after the first summer on the mountain. The original story is quicker to attribute this physical reaction to sorrow over letting Jack get away. The more ambiguous nature of the scene in the movie allows for Ennis being repulsed over what he had done, as well.
The homophobia in Brokeback Mountain is not limited to Jack's father-in-law, or Ennis' father. Ennis is dealing with his own internal repulsion. Some of us have had to deal with this in our own lives.
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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.
—Ezekiel 16.49
Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
I have been dying to see this film for weeks...finally made it today. Boy was it brilliant!!
I am not the crying type but I was crying inside for them - it's just such a beautiful story and I am so glad someone had the guts to promote it.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
[...] But two homosexual guys, well, are just two guys doing intimate things I don't want to do. What sort of heterosexual fantasy am I supposed to base on that?...
I didn't realize breakback was a porno-movie. Evidence suggests it's an emotional drama.
Oh, that's right. "Gay" is all about sex. I forgot.
Well I've seen it several times. It is the mostly (personally) moving film I've ever seen. But the things I keep wondering about is this "ick" factor with straight men . Boy there must be more latent homosexual feelings out there than I'd ever imagined.. For instance my partner 7 I have a straight friend, fairly liberal and urban who went to see it. Just couldn't come to grips with having to watch 2 men going at it - in the admittedly delicate way it was filmed. Made him very nervous.
I on the other hand don't mind at all when the rest of the straight world "flaunts" their sexuality.
Just a homo who believes we are equally human.
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by athroes:
I've just discovered this thread, and have found the posts fascinating, especially the breadth of discussion. Having said that ( and getting back to the op), I won't be seeing it as a)it's a cowboy movie,
b) it's 'soul distroying' in that no one wins - I watch movies for entertainment
c) I don't tend to like 'critically aclaimed' anything, books or movies - the ones I've read/seen have been pretentious nonsense. Maybe this is different? I *loathed* Dead Poet's Society, and a lot of people said that was worth seeing...
d) the "I won't watch these movies" list definitely applies.
I might read the book, though, as it sounds like the relationships are realistically and sensitively done.
Read Annie Proulx's excellent short story. It is beautiful and good.
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
But the things I keep wondering about is this "ick" factor with straight men . Boy there must be more latent homosexual feelings out there than I'd ever imagined.. For instance my partner 7 I have a straight friend, fairly liberal and urban who went to see it. Just couldn't come to grips with having to watch 2 men going at it - in the admittedly delicate way it was filmed. Made him very nervous.
I on the other hand don't mind at all when the rest of the straight world "flaunts" their sexuality.
Just a homo who believes we are equally human.
I thought the going theory was that the Ick factor was pretty much conditioned-- that if you don't loudly proclaim "ick" about such matters you are allowing for that horrrible chance that somebody might have doubts about your sexuality.
Around here, I notice that most guys are a little looser about gay PDA, real or cinematic-- instead of displaying the full-on aversion dumbshow, they will shrug and avert their eyes if they don't want to watch--too much wierd stuff going on with people of all orientations to get worked up about this stuff. Particularly younger guys, who (God bless 'em) seem to have decided that it's hip to be tolerant. (You still run into the aversion display, but it is usually greeted with looks of puzzlement, and therefore is not as easily reinforced.)
Weird aspect of San Fran Straight Guy behavior is the tendancy to indulge in flamboyant faux-flirting with their straight buddies during emotionally vulnerable moments.It's kind of sweet, but I wonder about the dynamic, and whether it is related somehow to the aversion display.Anybody else living in a gay mecca notice this?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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badman
Shipmate
# 9634
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
But the things I keep wondering about is this "ick" factor with straight men . Boy there must be more latent homosexual feelings out there than I'd ever imagined.. For instance my partner 7 I have a straight friend, fairly liberal and urban who went to see it. Just couldn't come to grips with having to watch 2 men going at it - in the admittedly delicate way it was filmed. Made him very nervous.
I on the other hand don't mind at all when the rest of the straight world "flaunts" their sexuality.
Just a homo who believes we are equally human.
I thought the going theory was that the Ick factor was pretty much conditioned-- that if you don't loudly proclaim "ick" about such matters you are allowing for that horrrible chance that somebody might have doubts about your sexuality.
Around here, I notice that most guys are a little looser about gay PDA, real or cinematic-- instead of displaying the full-on aversion dumbshow, they will shrug and avert their eyes if they don't want to watch--too much wierd stuff going on with people of all orientations to get worked up about this stuff.
I think the "ick" factor just depends on unfamiliarity. For kids, there's an "ick" factor about any sexual displays before they get personally interested. Most people see less gay kissing etc than the straight version and it takes a while to get used to it - doesn't have to be because of homophobia, or latent homosexuality. Most people see lots of straight kissing etc and so it doesn't bother them - whether they're straight or gay.
This is another reason why people should be able to be open about their sexuality. Then other people would get used to it and stop worrying about it so much. That's why Brokeback Mountain threatens homophobes. It makes it all look, well, rather beautiful and human and real and moving and not icky at all.
The way to cultivate hatred of homosexuals is to force them into the shadows. That's why the Anglican Church of Nigeria is this week actively supporting a proposed law banning associations of gay men and lesbians and any form of protesting for recognition of rights on their part.
[ 21. January 2006, 18:30: Message edited by: badman ]
Posts: 429 | From: Diocese of Guildford | Registered: Jun 2005
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
Yes, I've pretty much decided that my partner & I can just be ourselves wherever we wish - and society be damned. I've always felt it was 'appropriate" to appreciate the delicate feelings of people who were uncomfortable with overtly gay expressions of affection. What I now feel is that it is appropriate for us to be who we are wherever and whenever.
Yes, our clergy friends, even those who are more evangelically minded, have always been polite, but what I'm talking about is being who I am - a human child of a loving God.
That's something I learned from this film.
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Weird aspect of San Fran Straight Guy behavior is the tendancy to indulge in flamboyant faux-flirting with their straight buddies during emotionally vulnerable moments.It's kind of sweet, but I wonder about the dynamic, and whether it is related somehow to the aversion display.Anybody else living in a gay mecca notice this?
Yeah, I see that occasionally here in Long Beach. I'm sure they'd deny it if it were pointed out, though.
How comfortable the straight men and boys I know are with homosexual PDA varies hugely. Age and background affect this, of course, but across all such divisions just being comfortable in their own skin also makes a big difference.
Bede, I don't disagree with any of your latter posts about Ennis and his difficulties with his sexuality. None of it makes Jack a sexual predator, though, which was the original assertion you (and Gene Shalit) made.
As for who gets to wear the label, how is that relevant? Getting to wear the label doesn't make your argument any stronger. If anyone draws broad conclusions about sexual behavior on the basis of a few scenes in one movie, they've got bigger problems than you can solve with a few posts on the internet.
The movie isn't really about sex, and it doesn't promote the idea that all gay sex is anal; the vast majority of the time Ennis and Jack are depicted together they aren't in the sack together, and there are more intimate scenes without anal sex than with.
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
While the guys were definitely the main characters it was made clear, to me at least, that everybody suffered and lost. And I felt for all of them.
I couldn't agree more. These two characters were not allowed to be who they were, and as a result they and everyone connected to them suffered enormously.
Question: Bede makes reference to Ennis throwing up after that first summer with Jack -- I only remember him crying and yelling at the one passerby. What do others remember about this scene?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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RainbowKate
Shipmate
# 9331
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Posted
I saw it this afternoon, Ruth, and he was crying and yelling, not vomiting.
I went to see it this afternoon since all the straight people in my world keep asking me what I thought of it.
It was a beautiful film, but oh so fucking depressing.
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Coffee is the answer
Posts: 1227 | From: Left at the loophole | Registered: Apr 2005
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
Perhaps not the best movie to go see after a break-up.
Oddly I found it sad rather than depressing but I don't exactly know how to explain the difference in my mind.
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Thanks, Rainbow Kate.
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Oddly I found it sad rather than depressing but I don't exactly know how to explain the difference in my mind.
Yes, there's a difference between sorrow and depression. Hard to express, but very real to me. Taking a stab at it, sorrow is a response to something specific while depression is more generalized. Sorrow may be accompanied by or give way to depression, but not always.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Sad is the experience of sorrow, depression is the avoidance of the experience of sorrow by reducing feeling.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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