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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Bareback Mountain
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Ham'n'Eggs
Ship's Pig
# 629
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CDLauffer:
I thought there were consequences for ad hominems such as you have thrown at me the last few posts.
Ruth is perfectly aware of the rules here, as she was an Admin for several years.
But you appear to be unaware of what "ad hominem" means.
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"...the heresies that men do leave / Are hated most of those they did deceive" - Will S
Posts: 3103 | From: Genghis Khan's sleep depot | Registered: Jun 2001
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CDLauffer
Apprentice
# 10983
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Posted
I guess if I call you stupid that's not ad hominem. I guess if you assume I witless regarding the rules and say so that's not ad hominem.
Whatever the case may be, my point is fairly straightforward. No one needs to see the movie to understand what it's about. Neither natural law, nor the Church, nor conscience supports homosexual actions nor the abandonment of commitments no matter what the reason. I agree. Many do not. So what?
At least I have refused to stoop to the level of calling people names. Before I'm tempted to do that I will simply stop posting.
CDL
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Listen to "Light from the East" at www.byzantinecatholic.com radio
Posts: 10 | From: Joliet, Ill | Registered: Feb 2006
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CDLauffer:
No one needs to see the movie to understand what it's about.
How do you know? You haven't seen the movie.
Ad hominem
OliviaG
ETA: Ad hom link
[ 06. February 2006, 20:37: Message edited by: OliviaG ]
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CDLauffer:
Ruth,
I thought there were consequences for ad hominems such as you have thrown at me the last few posts.
I didn't call you stupid. I called a particular notion stupid. Lots of smart people have mounted arguments for stupid ideas, me among them. But this time it was you.
quote:
The film portrays two men who decide to abandon their families to whom they had made committments. Little else matters.
Bullshit. It matters that they wouldn't have had those families in the first place if society hadn't so violently disapproved of their relationship.
[ 06. February 2006, 20:44: Message edited by: RuthW ]
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Ham'n'Eggs
Ship's Pig
# 629
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Posted
CDLauffer - please would you do a little research and find out exactly what "ad hominem" means, and then reconsider the accusations that you have made in the light of this knowledge.
Back to the subject - imagine someone told you that it was unnecessary to read the Bible because someone else had told them that it praised genocide. Why should this not be a valid argument against reading the Bible?
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"...the heresies that men do leave / Are hated most of those they did deceive" - Will S
Posts: 3103 | From: Genghis Khan's sleep depot | Registered: Jun 2001
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RainbowKate:
If society were different there is no question that the two would not have married women, but remained together.
Well, I think that might be overstating the case a little, though I certainly do agree with the main point you're making, RainbowKate. As I said upthread, I don't think there's a clear indication there that Jack and Ennis would necessarily have been a happy long-term couple, even in a society where gay relationships were accepted. Maybe they would have lived together for awhile and found they couldn't stand each other. Maybe they would both have ended up with other guys (or, as I think more likely, Jack would have ended up happy with another guy and Ennis still would have been alone and lonely). But you're right in that most likely they would NOT have felt pressured to marry women, start families, and then betray those wives and families through adultery.
To suggest this is a "happily ever after" love story gone wrong is, I think, to over-romanticize their relationship in a way the movie avoids doing. Because of the society they lived in and its attitudes towards gay men, Jack and Ennis' relationship never had a chance to grow and mature beyond a youthful summer romance. It might have grown into a great love; it might very well not have. The tragedy is in not having the chance to find out.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CDLauffer:
My point is that society has never barred anyone from being together with anyone else. The only limitation has been they can't, or shouldn't, call it marriage. It's a lie.
CDL
Just to put the matter straight, in some countries same sex couples can marry. It's not a matter of "calling" it a marriage, it IS a marriage. Or so at least the courts and Parliament of Canada, and Spain at least have decided. The language has moved on.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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RainbowKate
Shipmate
# 9331
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TrudyTrudy (I say unto you):
quote:
Originally posted by RainbowKate:
If society were different there is no question that the two would not have married women, but remained together.
Well, I think that might be overstating the case a little, though I certainly do agree with the main point you're making, RainbowKate. As I said upthread, I don't think there's a clear indication there that Jack and Ennis would necessarily have been a happy long-term couple, even in a society where gay relationships were accepted. Maybe they would have lived together for awhile and found they couldn't stand each other. Maybe they would both have ended up with other guys (or, as I think more likely, Jack would have ended up happy with another guy and Ennis still would have been alone and lonely). But you're right in that most likely they would NOT have felt pressured to marry women, start families, and then betray those wives and families through adultery.
To suggest this is a "happily ever after" love story gone wrong is, I think, to over-romanticize their relationship in a way the movie avoids doing. Because of the society they lived in and its attitudes towards gay men, Jack and Ennis' relationship never had a chance to grow and mature beyond a youthful summer romance. It might have grown into a great love; it might very well not have. The tragedy is in not having the chance to find out.
Agreed, I was overstating, and you clairfy what I was getting at beautifully. I think that Ennis would have broken off the engagment and tried to build a life with Jack, if that had been long term or not I can't say.
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Coffee is the answer
Posts: 1227 | From: Left at the loophole | Registered: Apr 2005
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Manda
Shipmate
# 6028
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CDLauffer:
quote:
Originally posted by Manda:
Well it would be a spoiler to point out the particular consequences that ensues from them being gay, but they are certainly serious CDL, and can hardly be described as society allowing them to be themselves.
Manda,
I think we agree, though I'm not sure.
Well what I was getting at is that its not that they had the choice to live together but instead decided to get married to other people. They're feeling was that if they tried to do that, as Rainbow Kate pointed out, they'd be killed. The consequences are imposed by society.
quote:
The film portrays two men who decide to abandon their families to whom they had made committments. Little else matters.
CDL
I'm not sure how you can say that. Maybe if you watch the film, you'll see that that's not really what happens, at least on one side. The film is about their struggle to decide between what they want in their hearts and their other loyalties, and societies demands. What they want to do is not necessarily what they do.
Hope none of that was too spoilerish
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'Hypnotically fabulous AND twinkly' - The Lad Himself
Posts: 1137 | From: Back in little old Wiltshire | Registered: May 2004
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Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CDLauffer:
Just wondering...why would anyone wish to see a movie that praises adultery?
CDL
By this logic should we also refuse to read Madame Bovary? Or is the adultery therein less disgusting because it takes place between people of different genders?
quote:
No one needs to see the movie to understand what it's about. Neither natural law, nor the Church, nor conscience supports homosexual actions
If you happen to fall in love with someone of the same gender, does that make you "homosexual"?
One of the provocative parts of the film, it seems to me, is confronting what it means to be gay, and whether it is a question of who you love, who you have sex with, or both, or neither.
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CDLauffer:
Whatever the case may be, my point is fairly straightforward. No one needs to see the movie to understand what it's about. Neither natural law, nor the Church, nor conscience supports homosexual actions nor the abandonment of commitments no matter what the reason. I agree. Many do not. So what?
In light of your short posting experience on these boards, I respectfully request that you move your discussion regarding natural law, Church, conscience and "homosexual actions" to here or here . None of your comments are related to this OP and I personally find your comments extremely distracting while reading this thread.
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--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
quote:
Originally posted by CDLauffer:
Just wondering...why would anyone wish to see a movie that praises adultery?
CDL
By this logic should we also refuse to read Madame Bovary?
That of course is what's so satisfying about Anna Karenina. Nothing quite like throwing yourself under a train to show that adultery doesn't pay.
Of course adultery didn't really seem to pay in Brokeback Mountain either, as best I recall from SEEING THE MOVIE.
...And mrmister, you made my day by being offended by the thread title. Thanks.
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
I'll have to wait for DVD now. You've all ruined it for me as far as the big screen. It's enough that I hate bummer endings but bawling in public is just too much for this macho 'droid.
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--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ags:
Glad you enjoyed the film, but what on earth is a 'deconstructed gay?'
no one answered this... I'm almost afraid to ask...?
it sounds like they've dismantled you somehow.
Comet
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CDLauffer:
quote:
My point is that society has never barred anyone from being together with anyone else. CDL
This beggars my imagination. Gee, certain societies execute homosexuals. Ours just treats them as shameful and, well, just the occasional murder or savage beating - but no we don't bar anyone from being together.
No the film tells what it is really like for many people in this world. there is sadly not a Hollywood ending.
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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Honeybones
Shipmate
# 10603
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Posted
Late to this thread too.
I might want to see Brokeback Mountain. Heath Ledger kissing anyone makes for fine entertainment. But really, Im in the camp that doesnt like relationship flicks. Unless you are gonna come babysit for me, Im waiting for the dvd release.
On the other hand, Im determined to see Underworld 2 before it leaves the big screen. I have seen NO thread for Underworld 2. *tsk*
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I'm not kissing you no matter how many times you burp!
-SpiffyDaWondersheep
Everyone needs stories-to tell us how to live, and why.
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honeybones:
On the other hand, Im determined to see Underworld 2 before it leaves the big screen. I have seen NO thread for Underworld 2. *tsk*
Are you sure? Have you checked for a thread called something like 'Kate Beckinsale's bum in leather' ?
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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badman
Shipmate
# 9634
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by teddybear:
I just came across a very good review of the movie that I wanted to share:
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18712
Thanks for this. It's unbelievably biphobic isn't it? Or bi-miopic anyway. In that, I think it does the film an injustice. The film is more interesting than you would guess from the review.
[ 08. February 2006, 15:42: Message edited by: badman ]
Posts: 429 | From: Diocese of Guildford | Registered: Jun 2005
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The Bede's American Successor
Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CDLauffer:
...No one needs to see the movie to understand what it's about. Neither natural law, nor the Church, nor conscience supports...abandonment of commitments no matter what the reason....
Maybe you should at least read the book so you know what you are writing about. Ennis does not abandon his commitment to the person he was going to marry and did marry.
Ennis was engaged when going up on Brokeback Mountain. He kept his commitment to his bride-to-be and married her in spite of his feelings after coming down off the mountain. Later, Ennis didn't want a divorce to be with Jack. Ennis stayed involved in the raising of his children after the divorce (even over a visit from Jack after the divorce). He was committed to his employers.
It is very possible that Ennis could never be a success in any relationship because he keeps to himself too much. But it would never have been from a lack of commitment.
The only time he fell back on a commitment was at the end of the movie: when his daughter was going to be married at the same time he was supposed to be on a roundup. In this case he had two commitments, and chose family over work.
Interestingly enough, Jack was trying to make a committment to Ennis. This offer was never returned by Ennis. We can speculate on whether or not a commitment could or would have been kept by Jack if they had gone to take care of the ranch owned by Jack's father, but Jack did not give up on Ennis for a long time.
The story is not about abandoned committments.
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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.
—Ezekiel 16.49
Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003
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The Bede's American Successor
Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mrmister:
Can I just point out that dubbing the film "bareback mountain" is offensive and homophobic.
How come every gay man I know has called it that at least once?
Sometimes intentionally (the naming of this thread).
Sometimes accidently (me at the company Christmas party).
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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.
—Ezekiel 16.49
Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003
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Frater_Frag
Shipmate
# 2184
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by badman:
quote:
Originally posted by teddybear:
I just came across a very good review of the movie that I wanted to share:
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18712
Thanks for this. It's unbelievably biphobic isn't it? Or bi-miopic anyway. In that, I think it does the film an injustice. The film is more interesting than you would guess from the review.
And isn´t that date somewhat wrong...? 1963?
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Theological Dissident,
Fencing Instr :)
"Mammals have hair, whales are mammals. Therefore whales have hair... Shave the whales!"
Posts: 500 | From: Linköping/Sweden | Registered: Jan 2002
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor: How come every gay man I know has called it that at least once?
Because it's such a great play on words? It still cracks me up whenever I see it. My admiration for the gay community (whatever that is) continues to grow. Any person who has suffered persecution for being gay and can still satirize a popular movie that evokes sympathy for the exact subject that brings the persecution, deserves my respect and chuckles.
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--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I'm thinking that there needs to be a theme song, to the tune of "Wolverton Mountain."
Along these lines:
They said don't go
See Brokeback Mountain
With your girlfriend
Or your wife....
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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ReginaShoe
Shipmate
# 4076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by badman:
quote:
Originally posted by teddybear:
I just came across a very good review of the movie that I wanted to share:
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18712
Thanks for this. It's unbelievably biphobic isn't it? Or bi-miopic anyway. In that, I think it does the film an injustice. The film is more interesting than you would guess from the review.
A couple of other things I would point out about that review: first, spoilers galore, so be warned those who haven't bothered to look it up yet.
Second, he states that what makes this film fundamentally different from any other "forbidden love" story is that the heroes hate themselves for what they feel, not just the external constraints that keep them away from their beloved. I'm not so sure that's unique to this story. No doubt there are straight people who fell deeply in love with someone else when they were already married who felt pretty darn crummy about themselves at the time! (However it may have turned out.)
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"If you have any poo, fling it now." - Mason the chimp
Posts: 598 | From: Colorado | Registered: Feb 2003
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
Hi,
I just don't see what all the fuss is about.
Ang Lee likes to direct doomed love stories.
This is a doomed love story.
Personally, I found this one tedious. Ennis had all of three words to say in the first 45 minutes. I was just not feeling the "connection" between them. In between all the panoramic sheep shots, there was something happening there I just must have missed.
From there, the rest of the story was just kind of dull.
I must be the only person on the continent who felt like dozing off. I felt like, minus the humping, it could have been aired on Lifetime.
Sorry. Crouching Tiger and House of Flying Daggers were so much better stories, cinematography, and the fight scenes were prettier too.
FF
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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iGeek
Number of the Feast
# 777
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Posted
For me, Mendelsohn pegged it in his review.
But then, I operate in a social circle of primarily formerly-married gay men so I'm well acquainted with the tragedies depicted in the film and the story.
I appreciate the review for highlighting the angles about the closets involved.
One niggle, the reviewer talked about the *one* time when we saw them happy. There was one other scene, later in the film (a flashback) where Ennis was standing behind Jack, tenderly draping his arm over Jack's sholder. It stood out because tenderness between the two was so rare. But it was also silent.
Posts: 2150 | From: West End, Gulfopolis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by iGeek.:
For me, Mendelsohn pegged it in his review.
One niggle, the reviewer talked about the *one* time when we saw them happy. There was one other scene, later in the film (a flashback) where Ennis was standing behind Jack, tenderly draping his arm over Jack's sholder. It stood out because tenderness between the two was so rare. But it was also silent.
The scene is called the "Dozy Embrace". Though these moments were rare in the film, it has only 2 hours to describe 20 years. It is very touching and from my perspective, true.
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
Wondering if those who've seen the film have come away with any understanding of the importance of evangelical religion in the background of the main characters. Did religion have an impact on them?
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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teddybear
Shipmate
# 7842
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Posted
Brokeback Mountain Shopping List
WEEK ONE
Beans
Bacon
Coffee
Whiskey
WEEK TWO
Beans
Ham
Coffee
Whiskey
WEEK THREE
Beans
Bacon
Coffee
Whiskey
K-Y
WEEK FOUR
Beans
Pancetta
Coffee (espresso grind)
Whiskey
2 tubes K-Y
WEEK FIVE
Fresh Fava beans
Jasmine rice
Prosciutto, approx. 8 ounces, thinly sliced
Medallions of veal
Porcini mushrooms
1/2 pint of heavy whipping cream
1 Cub Scout uniform, size 42 long
5-6 bottles good Chardonnay
1 large bottle Astro-glide
WEEK SIX
Yukon Gold potatoes
Heavy whipping cream
Asparagus (very thin)
Eggs
Lemons
Gruyere cheese (well aged)
Walnuts
Arugula
Butter
Olive oil
Balsamic vinegar
6 yards white silk organdy
6 yards pale ivory taffeta
Case of Chardonnay
Large tin Crisco
(I'm sorry, I just couldn't resist posting this.)
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My cooking blog: http://inthekitchenwithdon.blogspot.com/
Posts: 480 | From: Topeka, Kansas USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
Yeah, but my question involved religion.....
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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teddybear
Shipmate
# 7842
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Posted
Comper's Child, that post wasn't directed to you in particular. However, in response to your question. I do believe that mention of religion was made at the beginning of the film. Didn't one of the characters talk about his mom's Pentecostal religion while they were sitting around the fire drinking?
[ 10. February 2006, 18:06: Message edited by: teddybear ]
Posts: 480 | From: Topeka, Kansas USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Ags
Knocked up
# 204
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Posted
In the book, Jack 'favoured a sad hymn, "Water-Walking Jesus," learned from his mother who believed in the Pentecost.'
There's no other mention of religion in the book and I don't seem to remember them making much more of it in the film. People's disapproval of the relationship is probably as much due to the norms of the society as religious belief.
[ 10. February 2006, 22:45: Message edited by: Ags ]
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I think that we are most ourselves at our best, because that is what God intended us to be. The us we really like, the us that others love to be with. Moth
Posts: 2707 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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phoenix_811
Shipmate
# 4662
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ags:
People's disapproval of the relationship is probably as much due to the norms of the society as religious belief.
How exactly does one separate the norms of society from religious belief?
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"Preach the gospel to the whole world, and if necessary, use words." -St. Francis of Assisi
Posts: 487 | From: the state of confusion | Registered: Jun 2003
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Ags
Knocked up
# 204
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Posted
Good question!
Perhaps I should have said 'specific religious belief.' Comper's Child referred to evangelical religion. More specifically about the impact this might have made on the characters.
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I think that we are most ourselves at our best, because that is what God intended us to be. The us we really like, the us that others love to be with. Moth
Posts: 2707 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ags:
Good question!
Perhaps I should have said 'specific religious belief.' Comper's Child referred to evangelical religion. More specifically about the impact this might have made on the characters.
For one thing, the Ennis character had been raised a Methodist, though in typical teenage fashion had no understanding of it. The Jack character's mother was, one assumes, Pentecostal. There's a brief moment on the mountain when Ennis looks up to heaven to give thanks for their being together, but then in macho fashion makes light of it, but it is clearly a spiritual moment for the character. The cultural or societal norms of the Rocky Mountains would seem to be based on a generalised evangelical protestant experience combined with a very hard life.
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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The Bede's American Successor
Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
Wondering if those who've seen the film have come away with any understanding of the importance of evangelical religion in the background of the main characters. Did religion have an impact on them?
Precious little, if any.
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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.
—Ezekiel 16.49
Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
Someone on the International Movie Database commented, re-religion generally: 'There is a lot of religious symbolism. For example, religion suffuses Jake's and Ennis's lives, but they are so uneducated. They don't even know what the Pentecost is. Ennis refuses to go to a church social. The use of a rose ("stem the rose") in the movie is interesting -- liturgical symbolism of penance and joy combined. Jacob's name means Twist -- the actor's first name is a literal translation of his character's last name. Even DelMar -- from the sea -- evokes drowning, perhaps the drowning of Jake in his own blood.'
Someone else: an awareness that love is a force of nature....The story illuminates the dark corners where the myths break down, where rugged individualism means keeping your mouth shut and staying out of the way, and where the wide open promise of the west means isolation, loneliness and limitations. And as the story unfolds, we see how this myth celebrates and simultaneously strangles our understanding of what it is to be a real man.'
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Jacob's name means Twist -- the actor's first name is a literal translation of his character's last name.
How is this relevant? Annie Proulx when she wrote the story didn't even know it was going to be filmed, let alone who the actors would be.
[ 11. February 2006, 18:47: Message edited by: angloid ]
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
I think he meant Jack, not Jacob though I don't see how Jack becomes a nick name for Jacob ...I'm sure he can't have meant Jake Gyllenhaal...
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
[tangent] Jake is short for Jacob. That's just a standard abbrevation.
But also, Jacob is a form of the name James. And in French at least, James/Jacob takes the form Jacques. Jack came into English from late medieval French, but became associated for some reason I don't know with John (for which it was the usual nickname for a couple of centuries), rather than with James.
[/tangent]
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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phoenix_811
Shipmate
# 4662
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
Wondering if those who've seen the film have come away with any understanding of the importance of evangelical religion in the background of the main characters. Did religion have an impact on them?
Precious little, if any.
Really? I wonder if the lack of any explicit religious dimension, albeit plenty of implicit connnotations, doesn't belie the real presence (pun intended) of an evangelical religious background. My point earlier about the inability to separate the norms of society from religious belief gets at this point. The societal norm, rooted in an evangelical religious understanding of sexuality, is what is constraining the characters from coming to understand their sexuality in a healthy and meaningful way. It is, in fact, the central tension of the film/story.
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"Preach the gospel to the whole world, and if necessary, use words." -St. Francis of Assisi
Posts: 487 | From: the state of confusion | Registered: Jun 2003
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badman
Shipmate
# 9634
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ReginaShoe:
quote:
Originally posted by badman:
quote:
Originally posted by teddybear:
I just came across a very good review of the movie that I wanted to share:
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18712
Thanks for this. It's unbelievably biphobic isn't it? Or bi-miopic anyway. In that, I think it does the film an injustice. The film is more interesting than you would guess from the review.
A couple of other things I would point out about that review: first, spoilers galore, so be warned those who haven't bothered to look it up yet.
Second, he states that what makes this film fundamentally different from any other "forbidden love" story is that the heroes hate themselves for what they feel, not just the external constraints that keep them away from their beloved. I'm not so sure that's unique to this story. No doubt there are straight people who fell deeply in love with someone else when they were already married who felt pretty darn crummy about themselves at the time! (However it may have turned out.)
Absolutely. Not only is there a very strong straight modern parallel in Brief Encounter , which has been raised before on this thread, but yesterday it occurred to me that a paradigm case of the lover who is ashamed of his feelings would be Sir Lancelot, whose love for Guinevere is not only adulterous but treason as well.
Posts: 429 | From: Diocese of Guildford | Registered: Jun 2005
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CDLauffer:
My point is that society has never barred anyone from being together with anyone else.
What a lie. The hell it hasn't. This film takes place in Amerika, where what those two young men did up on the mountain was against the law, probably felonious, in every State in the Union until 1962, when Illinois repealed its prohibition of "sodomy." (Guess where I moved as soon as I was out of college?) It took at least that long in England, too. The laws in some States hung on until the Supreme Court knocked them over just a few years ago. Even now they nibble around the edges; e.g. while it may be o.k. to have gay sex, you can still get busted for talking as though you're looking for it.
Besides, if homosex is as strange and inconsequential and unnatural as the stuffed shirts depict it, it's marvelous how the same stuffed shirts imagine that it could possibly rise to the status of adultery.
[ 21. February 2006, 13:43: Message edited by: Alogon ]
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Laura_23
Shipmate
# 11046
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Posted
Originally posted by Sine Nomine quote:
Have any straight people on the ship seen it?
I’m straight and I’ve seen it but have also just joined the ship. It annoys me when people call it the gay cowboy movie (and I called it that myself before going to see it) when it is so much more than that, it’s a love story and so much more than just homosexual sex. It really was a beautiful film and tugs on your heartstrings a lot. It was a bit awkward during the "love" scene as I was with my dad but was very convincing seeing they are both straight and also close friends. In my opinion out of all the films I’ve seen (and my friends know that’s ALOT). This is one of the best and is also very brave. There I’m done with my rant now!!
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**All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing**
Posts: 75 | From: East yorkshire | Registered: Feb 2006
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
Thanks Forever_standing_strong for "coming out" as a straight member of the ship's company. It is a great film and it seems you figured out how simple yet complex it is!
Comper's Child
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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Laura_23
Shipmate
# 11046
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Comper's child:It is a great film and it seems you figured out how simple yet complex it is!
Indeed i have, im the biggest critic on films ever so you know where i am if you have a queery ive seen almost everything! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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**All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing**
Posts: 75 | From: East yorkshire | Registered: Feb 2006
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Luke:
Brian Godawa's movie blog provides an interesting analysis of [i]Brokeback Mountain
Eek! Interesting in the sense that a specimen scorpion can be interesting. And analysis in the sense of anal.
We do know, don't we, what a quote from Rushdoony standing at the head of a web page implies about the blogger's theological stance? He'd gladly see both of the protagonists executed as per Leviticus et al. Standing below that, his remarks on this film were so unsurprising as to be virtually redundant.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
So, Brokeback Crashed at the Oscars after all. A surprise?
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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fionn
Shipmate
# 8534
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Posted
Ingo:
Damn shame too. Brokeback was much the better movie. Better acting, better script.
Posts: 179 | From: horsecountry | Registered: Sep 2004
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