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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Whats wrong with porn?
El Greco
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# 9313

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Um, Mary from Magdala, was a woman possessed by many demons whom Jesus delivered. What has she to do with sex?

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ChastMastr
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# 716

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quote:
Originally posted by andreas1984:
Gort, you are suggesting that the gospel is different from what I'm saying. I think that you are saying this for many reasons.

Among them might even be that Gort's understanding of the gospel might be different from yours, without any kind of hidden motives! [Smile]

David

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ChastMastr
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# 716

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Re Mary Magdalene, some traditions hold that she was a penitent prostitute.

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Re Mary Magdalene, some traditions hold that she was a penitent prostitute.

Ah, but what do the Scriptures say? [Biased]

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El Greco
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I wasn't talking about hidden motives! No, I think Gort is frank in what he is saying. I was only talking about the historical reasons that led to the formation of certain opinions.

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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.

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Bullfrog.

Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014

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Perhaps the Christian issue with pornography is that it is an empty self-indulgence. Allowing one pleasurable part of the body to come between one's self and the rest of one's existence?

Also, I know or have heard of churches that are of the opinion that sexual relations in general are an obstacle to God, going back to the dualistic point. Not that I think so, but it's a view that some seem to hold.

Or maybe it's just plain anti-social. Replacing normal relations between sexes with something that puts the one at the mercy/pleasure of the other?

Just some thoughts...

[edited to clarify, fix spelling, and avoid repetition]

[ 19. February 2006, 18:24: Message edited by: mirrizin ]

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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg

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Schroedinger's cat

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# 64

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quote:
Originally posted by mirrizin:
Also, I know or have heard of churches that are of the opinion that sexual relations in general are an obstacle to God, going back to the dualistic point. Not that I think so, but it's a view that some seem to hold.

There is, historically, a view that sex is bad in the church, which is less prevalent than it was. Although the roots of what I think Andreas is saying are from the same understandings. The more recent view that pleasure ( in general ) is not sinful seems more enlightened, but takes us back to the opening question - is THIS pleasure sinful or wrong, and why?

quote:
Originally posted by mirrizin:
Or maybe it's just plain anti-social. Replacing normal relations between sexes with something that puts the one at the mercy/pleasure of the other?

Which point well made, but that would also seem to rule out some consensual S/M practices.

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Chapelhead

I am
# 21

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This strikes me as a difficult topic, and one that tends to get mixed up with a great many others ideas, feelings and hang-ups.

The reason I’ve most often heard from religious circles for opposition to porn is one already given on this thread, that of “objectification”. But I’m not sure that this argument stands up. OK, porn involves one person relating to another person or persons in a manner that involves just one aspect of their being – the physical form. But if I buy and listen to a CD of a singer aren’t I then relating to them in just such an objective manner? I probably don’t care what that person is like in terms of character, I have no significant interest in their well-being, it’s likely that I’m not concerned whether they enjoyed carrying out the performance I am listening to. I am relating to them in an entirely objective manner, but nobody seems to be condemning this as immoral objectification.

Isn’t it the case that ever since the invention of mass-production in the form of the printing press many people have related objectively to many others? Prior to this point most people’s relationships with others would have been personal, as one person to another. Even the pictures that people might have seen would be likely to be of the dead (for whom a “personal” relationship does not apply in the same way) – with the possible exception of the monarch’s head on a coin. Now I can have an “objectified” relationship with the person who writes the newspaper, the television presenter, the artist’s model etc, and these don’t seem to cause controversy.

The difference with (photographic) porn, I think, is that somehow a photograph is regarded as much more “personal”, more about the “real person”. Shades here, I suspect, of the idea of photographs “stealing your soul”.

Or to put it another way, if I hire a photographic model for work in which the model will be clothed, how is that less “objectification” than if I hire a model for nude work? Of course, you may not regard the latter as “porn”, but I suspect that many people would regard any “nude” photography as porn.

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At times like this I find myself thinking, what would the Amish do?

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Bullfrog.

Prophetic Amphibian
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quote:

Which point well made, but that would also seem to rule out some consensual S/M practices.

Fair. I didn't think of that angle. Still, even in consensual S&M, the masochist is regarded as a person, even a subject (at least from their view). Certainly (not speaking from experience [Two face] ) they get something out of the bargain. I think it would be far less interesting if the "M" side was literally a picture, an "object," which leads me to take this to the "porn as objectification" argument: it creates a mode of sexual interaction [Paranoid] in which the only object is the self. As it isolates the self from the rest of the community, world, whathaveyou, it is also antisocial behavior, which does not seem to be very christian.

Does that make sense?

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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg

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Niënna

Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652

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quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
The reason I’ve most often heard from religious circles for opposition to porn is one already given on this thread, that of “objectification”. But I’m not sure that this argument stands up. OK, porn involves one person relating to another person or persons in a manner that involves just one aspect of their being – the physical form. But if I buy and listen to a CD of a singer aren’t I then relating to them in just such an objective manner? I probably don’t care what that person is like in terms of character, I have no significant interest in their well-being, it’s likely that I’m not concerned whether they enjoyed carrying out the performance I am listening to. I am relating to them in an entirely objective manner, but nobody seems to be condemning this as immoral objectification.

I think, perhaps, there is an fundamental different purpose in listening to music vs. porn. Not only that, but I think there's something about how porn can affect sexual relations and perspectives in a way that music doesn't. (no doubt there are some music that is purposed to be just plainly sexual but I think it would be a huge stretch to argue that all music is designed for sexual stimulation). I dunno, I just don't find those comparisons equivalent.

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[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
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barrea
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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
if anything. And to clarify a few points first, this excludes child porn or any other illegal material, becasue that is a different issue. I also don't deny that for some people porn is a problem, an addiction, but then so is alcohol, and we drink that in churches.

Porn should have no place in the life of a Christian. God says Be ye holy for I am holy.
When we are born again the bible says that we are New Chreatures old things are passed away.
If we fill our minds with filth,that is what we will be thinking of instead of how we can please God.
We are made to ejoy sex but God requires us to wait until we are married. and sex otside of marriage is fornication according to the scriptures. Its not easy but it is possible with God's help.
How people pray and read God's word and if the mind is filled with pictures of people doing sinful acts.
I am talking about true Christians here. Unbelievers will do what they want to do anyway.

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Therefore having been justified by faith,we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:1

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Niënna

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# 4652

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Barrea, I appreciate your perspective but what I feel is important is to understand why something is holy and something else is unholy. I mean, the bible doesn't really talk about porn (as far as I can tell) but it does say to live holy lives.

So, one way of figuring this out is to look at what the essence of something is and the consequences of it - and I think that is what we are trying to do on this thread.

I think that no matter if you believe in God or not, I still think this discussion and investigation is helpful.

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[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land

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Sine Nomine

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# 66

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I think it gradually desensitises us in ways we don't perceive.

I agree, although perhaps in a way leo didn't quite intend.

I notice that the OP doesn't specify "What's wrong with porn" in a specifically Christian context so I won't go there.

But I have found over time that if you give too many little pieces of yourself away ultimately there's not much left inside and you have reduced your capacity to relate and feel - even to love. This applies to both porn and sexual promiscuity, in my personal opinon and experience.

Naturally I certainly didn't feel this way at 25 but in retrospect I find those religious and societal restrictions had a wisdom behind them I didn't realize with comparatively little life experience.

[ 19. February 2006, 21:20: Message edited by: Sine Nomine ]

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by samara:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
If you go to Asia Carrera's website, you'll find a lot of fun, happy stuff, and the biography available from the main page puts her career in a very positive light, but if you look hard enough, you can find a second biography (this page has no pictures so is safe -- rummage around the rest of the site at your own risk). The woman I know who did porno was, like Asia Carrera, a runaway, and she did porn starting when she was 16 because it was a step up from selling herself on the street.

Could you expand on this? I didn't think the second bio exactly put the industry in a negative light. Her life, yes, and how she got into it. That stripping was hard to do, and that screwing people for money was negative. But it wasn't clear, really, whether the porn industry was negative for her.
Screwing people for money is what the porn industry is all about for the people in front of the camera. It seems to me that she's hardly going to come out and say, "Yeah, the porn industry really sucks," when she's so identified with it. But I think that she finds the need to put this second bio on her site at all is rather revealing.

quote:
A step up from selling herself on the street - well, it was a step up, right? I guess the question is how far a step up she thought it was, or how far a step up it really is.
I think this goes with RooK's point, which is a very good one -- there are a lot of sucky jobs out there that people will do if someone will pay them enough. And I think he's right to say that the only thing different about the porn industry is that sex is involved; that we are as a culture weird about sex (and for Christians this goes double) is probably one of the main reasons we periodically get threads on the Ship about whether or not porn is okay and we don't get threads about whether it's okay to eat fish, which must be harvested by commercial fisherman at great personal risk.

I happen to think that porn should stay legal for the same reasons that I think prostitution and drug dealing should be legalized -- these things should all be out in the open so they can be more easily regulated and policed. But I also don't think we should kid ourselves that this will make everything okay. Workers in all sorts of less dangerous and less degrading occupations are exploited on a regular basis because some people are willing to exploit others and others are willing to be exploited or feel they have no better option.

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Mad Geo

Ship's navel gazer
# 2939

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quote:
Originally posted by barrea:
Porn should have no place in the life of a Christian. God says Be ye holy for I am holy.
When we are born again the bible says that we are New Chreatures old things are passed away.
If we fill our minds with filth,that is what we will be thinking of instead of how we can please God.
We are made to ejoy sex but God requires us to wait until we are married. and sex otside of marriage is fornication according to the scriptures. Its not easy but it is possible with God's help.
How people pray and read God's word and if the mind is filled with pictures of people doing sinful acts.
I am talking about true Christians here. Unbelievers will do what they want to do anyway.

Have you read the Song of Songs lately? If the standard is "I know porn when I see it", well then that book is written porn, through and through. Many of your god's "favorites" were polygamists extraordinaire. Does that count as "married"?

As someone once said, if we all could see what was going on in our [Christian] neighbor's house, there would be none of this throwing around of words like "Filthy" and "Dirty" because the only reason those terms exist is that people do not know what you've tried in the privacy of your bedroom. I like to imagine people that cry "Sin!" over sex doing some trapeze flying, dildo waving, sex in every position but missionary, cock ring, Wild Thing™ sex acts to put them in their true Christian light.

I am very glad Rook brought up the issue of Sensual Art versus Porn. Some of the greatest sensual art has been paid for by Christian churches over the centuries. Sure they tack on a halo or two to tone it down, or named the statue "David" but folks make no mistake that could easily have been named "Studboy" and gone the other way.

If everyone in general (at least in America) and Christians in particular would get the stick out of their asses (or maybe put one in occasionally [Biased] ) I would bet $100 that we might have a lot less warmongering, a lot more joy, and a generally more "Christian" spirit of loving thy neighbor (perhaps literally). Not to mention probably less sex crimes, people that have no business being in jail, and so on.

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barrea
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Sorry mad George but i don't agree with you.

We have more immoral conduct than ever in the UK. More children having sex, more teenage pregnacies, more abortions, more people living together unmarried, more people watching porn ect I could go on:

But has it has it brought more joy, more peace,
less war, or all-round benifit. just ask yourself.

The truely joyfull people are the ones who know God's will and do it.

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Therefore having been justified by faith,we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:1

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Littlelady
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# 9616

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quote:
Originally posted by barrea:
We have more immoral conduct than ever in the UK. More children having sex, more teenage pregnacies, more abortions, more people living together unmarried, more people watching porn ect

But barrea, more 'immoral conduct' than when? I hear this view quite often, usually from particular sections of British society, but I can never figure it out. It's as if there was once a 'golden time' of purity, and now it's all gone to the dogs. I just don't buy it. Apart from anything else, how do you know who was doing what before stats were invented?

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Alfred E. Neuman

What? Me worry?
# 6855

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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
[...] The more recent view that pleasure ( in general ) is not sinful seems more enlightened, but takes us back to the opening question - is THIS pleasure sinful or wrong, and why?

Perhaps the admonition against "worshiping graven images" applies here? I've always felt there was more to that warning than golden calves. Focusing desire on any image that diverts attention from the Real Thing is bad, IMO. This could be said of everything from worshiping status symbols to cosmetic surgery. Not that I feel we're doomed to hell as a result, but that there is a fundamental short-circuiting of a creative process in the warning... sort of a "don't waste your energy shooting blanks" thing. (sorry for my illiterate analogies)

[ 19. February 2006, 23:28: Message edited by: Gort ]

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Emma Louise

Storm in a teapot
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I agree its wrong to harp back to a "golden age" but teenage pregnancy is rising and rising - the uk being the worst in europe. STDs are also rising at an alarming rate, especially with some being unnoticeable with out a test and can lead to infertility etc.

I actually was quite shocked to realise how many students i teach (middle class "nice" girls grammar school) are sexuallyy active, and each year have a couple working in a strip club/ topless bar.

Ive done a series on sex and relationships with 14-16year olds, over half would "sleep with someone for a million dollars" (heck if i was single im not entirely sure Id say no anymore [Frown] ). fair enough etc, but I thought kids were supposed to be idealistic and initialy have dreams of purity etc (maybe it was just me!!!)

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Littlelady
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# 9616

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quote:
Originally posted by Emma.:
Ive done a series on sex and relationships with 14-16year olds, over half would "sleep with someone for a million dollars" (heck if i was single im not entirely sure Id say no anymore [Frown] ). fair enough etc, but I thought kids were supposed to be idealistic and initialy have dreams of purity etc (maybe it was just me!!!)

[Big Grin]

I've had that 'million dollars' conversation myself - but it was with a guy who, no matter how often I said it, would not believe that under no circumstances would I ever sleep with anyone for any money at all. What a cynic!

I wouldn't begin to dispute the position as you describe it, Emma, coz they do seem to be the facts. What concerns me with statements such as the one barrea made (not picking on barrea in particular; as I say, I've heard it many times before) is that it reflects only a relatively short timespan. Did we know what people got up to 200 years ago? There might not have been porn around as we know it, and abortion may have been less common (because it was a lot more risky), but does that mean people weren't dying from syphillis on a fairly regular basis or that girls weren't getting pregnant at 13? I'm just not convinced things are worse (or better) now than at any other time in history. It seems to be that we just get to know about things now because we have the means of collecting and communicating the information. But perhaps this is a tangent.

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'When ideas fail, words come in very handy' ~ Goethe

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RooK

1 of 6
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Feeding the tangent.

Sorry, the fictional "moral golden age" that everybody remembers as coinciding with their youth - regardless of when that actually was - is one of my hobby horses.

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Emma Louise

Storm in a teapot
# 3571

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An interesting one though!!

I remember at some museum in texas (cant remember what it was) there were some ancient greek pots and things with v pornagrpahic images on them, so im guessint the porn aspect isnt new.

Actually, humans are sexually creatures - the discovery of sex isnt new!

As for abortions - didnt some ancient civilisations practice infanticide instead...

As for pregnancys etc, I think you could be right, I do wonder now adn tehn if pre the invention of teenager, when peeps went out to work 13+ etc, whetehr there was such a delay between the onset of puberyt and sexual activity.,.

hmm wheres ken when you need him - hes good with all this kind of stuff!

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Mad Geo

Ship's navel gazer
# 2939

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quote:
Originally posted by barrea:
Sorry mad George but i don't agree with you.

We have more immoral conduct than ever in the UK. More children having sex, more teenage pregnacies, more abortions, more people living together unmarried, more people watching porn ect I could go on:

But has it has it brought more joy, more peace,
less war, or all-round benifit. just ask yourself.

The truely joyfull people are the ones who know God's will and do it.

Another myth. Some of the saddest people I know are also the most Christian. Christianity does not equal joy any more than anything else.

As other's have already said, this harkens back to a golden period that simply didn't exist. Did you know that marriage wasn't an official act (for anything less than the titled landowners) until around the Middle Ages? Living together was the rule until some priestly wanker in the Church decided he had to control sex in the unwashed masses. How noble and moral of him, and it was a him.

Did you know that having babies as a teenager was the norm until around the last couple of centuries? Since most people lived to around 35, teenage years were prime for popping out babies.

Every other religion, whether they were Jews, Wiccan, Hindu, Islam, whatever, held sex as sacred and not profane over history. It took Christianity to turn it into something dirty, and to be wholesale controlled in it's every twist. Thanks guys, and it was guys (RC Priests to be exact).

I wish Christians were forced to repeatedly read Song of Songs from cradle to grave. Better yet, perhaps they should take up polyamory or polygamy, because that's what their boys did in the Bible dontcha know.....and we definitely want to emulate them!

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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"

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Mad Geo

Ship's navel gazer
# 2939

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P.S. Mad George, while funny, is not correct. I'm a Mad Geologist. But do carry on.

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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"

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Beautiful Dreamer
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# 10880

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my ex used porn and even though he said he didnt, I know he compared me to those women and got a really screwed up image of what a woman was supposed to look like or be. He had no respect for women and I think a good deal of that had to do with his porn addiction, even though he would swear he could stop whenever he wanted. He would make me feel like I was fat and ugly and a bitch because I wasnt easy and skinny like those porn girls. He used it even though he knew I hated it. So the problem with porn is objectification (not just of the porn people but of all women in general, it happens trust me)and the fact that it portrays a false image of people.

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Mad Geo

Ship's navel gazer
# 2939

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A. Porn causes evil mean bastard.

Or:

B. Evil mean bastard who also happens to look at porn.

I'm guessing B.

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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"

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A.F. Steve
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quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
From the perspective of advancing age, it all seems comically mechanical. Somewhat analogous to observing one of those battery-operated clear plastic models of a gasoline engine with moving parts. See the oil pump circulate fluids to the cam shaft while the push rods actuate valve lifters. The pistons rise, compressing explosive gases to be fired electrically with a properly timed ignition system. [Snore]

Interesting, but no longer stimulating.

That may be the funniest description of porn I have ever read!

It reminds me of the description of hurricane reporting as porn:

A bunch of middle-aged men swaying rythmically while getting the blow of their lives.

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Lived in FL, TX, NE, CA... I'm now immune to culture shock.

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Emma Louise

Storm in a teapot
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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
Another myth. Some of the saddest people I know are also the most Christian. Christianity does not equal joy any more than anything else.

Sad but true [Frown] Also I know far too many christians not enjoying the so called weding gift" of exciting sex within marriage.

quote:


As other's have already said, this harkens back to a golden period that simply didn't exist. Did you know that marriage wasn't an official act (for anything less than the titled landowners) until around the Middle Ages? Living together was the rule until some priestly wanker in the Church decided he had to control sex in the unwashed masses. How noble and moral of him, and it was a him.

Did you know that having babies as a teenager was the norm until around the last couple of centuries? Since most people lived to around 35, teenage years were prime for popping out babies.

Wow. I think its the teenage thing being hte norma that i was thinking to be the case. so so so so so strange to imagine that being hte case now tho. Apparently marriages far more likely to last if you get married over 21.


AS for the sleeping togher pre legalisation of marriage... would that have meant that you didnt "date" but went straight into sex with someone you fancied? And did that sex equate more or less to marriage? Was there anything binding or could it have been a series of one night stands? would it have been frowned upon to stop seeing each other once you had (was it a case of marry/sleep with first boyfriend?) and
does that mean then that you basically chose someone you liked, slept wtih them and then made the decision to stay loyal?

(all interesting stuff)

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RooK

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quote:
Originally posted by Emma.:
and does that mean then that you basically chose someone you liked, slept wtih them and then made the decision to stay loyal?

I think you might be associating a little too much with modern society. Until not very long ago, females were chattle. Their fathers - their nominal owners until marriage - would try to protect their "purity" until they could find a suitable match in the interests of whatever mattered to the father. Romantic frolicking in haystacks was probably not sanctioned, but doubtlessly happened thanks to normal human drives. I expect that the feelings of the female in question regarding marriage were important to some degree, but probably only pragmatically in as much as the father cared about them.

Ah, morals.

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Beautiful Dreamer
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I know my ex wasnt mean because of porn but I think the porn didnt help his attitudes toward women (maybe helped feed them) and I just wanted to tell how his use of porn made me feel.

Right or wrong, anything done in a relationship should be consentual between both partners, and should use consideration to the other partner's wishes. If your partner doesn't want you to use porn, out of consideration for them perhaps you shouldn't use it.

(last part not directed at anyone in particular).

[ 20. February 2006, 00:57: Message edited by: Beautiful_Dreamer ]

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More where that came from
Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time!

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Alfred E. Neuman

What? Me worry?
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quote:
Originally posted by Beautiful_Dreamer:
[...] Right or wrong, anything done in a relationship should be consentual between both partners, and should use consideration to the other partner's wishes. If your partner doesn't want you to use porn, out of consideration for them perhaps you shouldn't use it.

I assume you weren't interested in the pornography? Was he embarrassed about his voyeurism and try to hide it? Am curious if he had an explanation for ignoring your wishes, if so.

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--Formerly: Gort--

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Beautiful Dreamer
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He thought I was a prude because I didnt like porn. I just don't have an interest in it and I didnt like being compared to the girls who were in porn. I dont think anyone would. He wanted me to be like those girls and I just, well, am not. It just isn't *me*.

And I did feel it wasnt the most Christian thing, but I wasnt judgemental toward him about it. I just didn't use it. My morals are for me and I don't apply them to others usually.

[ 20. February 2006, 01:13: Message edited by: Beautiful_Dreamer ]

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More where that came from
Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time!

Posts: 6027 | From: Outside Atlanta, GA | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Alfred E. Neuman

What? Me worry?
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So, he wasn't embarrassed or try to hide it? How did he compare you to the pron women? Play the videos and ask you to emulate it?

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--Formerly: Gort--

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Beautiful Dreamer
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quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
So, he wasn't embarrassed or try to hide it? How did he compare you to the pron women? Play the videos and ask you to emulate it?

Yes and ask me to dress like the porn women, and he would also complain about my body and say I didnt look good enough because I didn't look like a porn girl. However that didnt stop him from trying to paw at me constantly. I honestly hate how low my self esteem was or else I wouldnt have put up with that.

no he wasnt embarrassed, he thought it was his right as a man to use it and that I should just shut up and take it. Um, No.

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More where that came from
Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time!

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Alfred E. Neuman

What? Me worry?
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I'm sorry that you had to experience that. It's difficult to speculate how this conflict wasn't revealed before marriage. Personally, I find that when you join someone in the sex act, you are agreeing to accept them as is... warts and all. It seems the only way to drop one's defenses and be yourself. But that may be just me.

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--Formerly: Gort--

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Beautiful Dreamer
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I am so lucky I didnt marry this guy. This is my ex boyfriend and I am so lucky my husband is a good man.

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More where that came from
Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time!

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Alfred E. Neuman

What? Me worry?
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Oh! Pardon me! I thought by "Ex" you meant husband!

Then, may I ask you about this:
quote:
Originally posted by Beautiful_Dreamer:
[...] And I did feel it wasnt the most Christian thing, but I wasnt judgemental toward him about it. I just didn't use it. My morals are for me and I don't apply them to others usually.

Forgive me for being frank, but as a non-christian I'm always curious about how their morals are applied to life decisions. Did you ever see a conflict between your view of pornography as "not the most christian thing" and the widely held view that premarital sex is unchristian?

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--Formerly: Gort--

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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quote:
Originally posted by Beautiful_Dreamer:
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
So, he wasn't embarrassed or try to hide it? How did he compare you to the pron women? Play the videos and ask you to emulate it?

Yes and ask me to dress like the porn women, and he would also complain about my body and say I didnt look good enough because I didn't look like a porn girl. However that didnt stop him from trying to paw at me constantly. I honestly hate how low my self esteem was or else I wouldn't have put up with that.

no he wasnt embarrassed, he thought it was his right as a man to use it and that I should just shut up and take it. Um, No.

I once was talkiing with a group of other women and each had a story about a boyfriend or husband who had compared her to porn stars (or sexy actresses or whatever.)One woman in particular was absolutely stunning-- tall, leggy, beautiful face, long, sexy hair, everything one would think would make her immune. Her boyfriend constantly told her she wasn't sexy enough, and that if she wanted to make him happy she's try to be sexier. You're just gonna have to trust me that this was ridiculous.The chick looked like she'd stepped out of a porn film.

I think this particular ploy is less about honest communication about attraction, and more about X man making sure woman X never feels good enough, so that X woman will not leave X man.

Another strange commonality was that a lot of the women were told by these guys that they didn't like skinny model types,or that X guy preferred bigger women, or whatever, which makes it particularly cruel. Nothing like thinking you are being accepted "warts and all" when in reality your faults are being catalogued to be trotted out as a weapon.

[ 20. February 2006, 01:46: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I think this particular ploy is less about honest communication about attraction, and more about X man making sure woman X never feels good enough, so that X woman will not leave X man.

Quite common in abusive relationships. No woman should ever have to put up with that kind of shit.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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We live, we learn. This woman definitely won't in the future.

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I once was talkiing with a group of other women and each had a story about a boyfriend or husband who had compared her to porn stars (or sexy actresses or whatever.)

Right. "Or sexy actresses or whatever." These guys would have been jerks even if they'd never had access to porn.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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No doubt. There seem to be plenty of guys with porn collections out there who are perfectly happy with "real women", and I'm sure they woudn't stick around if it was used as a cudgel against them.

I just thought it was weird that all those women seemed to have the same story-- but then(I left this bit out) it was an informal group therapy sort of thing,and we all had insecurity issues, so maybe we were all just targets for that sort of thing.

[ 20. February 2006, 01:57: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Alfred E. Neuman

What? Me worry?
# 6855

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
[...] Another strange commonality was that a lot of the women were told by these guys that they didn't like skinny model types,or that X guy preferred bigger women, or whatever, which makes it particularly cruel. Nothing like thinking you are being accepted "warts and all" when in reality your faults are being catalogued to be trotted out as a weapon.

Yes, I agree. It can be also be devastating if one's self-worth in a relationship is focused on being accepted in the sex act. This can put tremendous pressure on the partner if their requirements for acceptance don't coincide. If for any reason the partner is not interested in sex on any given occasion, rejection is implied.

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--Formerly: Gort--

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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I'm not talking about that, I'm specifically talking about being verbally told you don't measure up to a specific person. Of course not every refusal of sex is in the same category.

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Niënna

Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652

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quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
Perhaps the admonition against "worshiping graven images" applies here? I've always felt there was more to that warning than golden calves. Focusing desire on any image that diverts attention from the Real Thing is bad, IMO. This could be said of everything from worshiping status symbols to cosmetic surgery. Not that I feel we're doomed to hell as a result, but that there is a fundamental short-circuiting of a creative process in the warning... sort of a "don't waste your energy shooting blanks" thing. (sorry for my illiterate analogies)

Thank you, Gort. I really found this very insightful! [Overused]

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[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land

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Mad Geo

Ship's navel gazer
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quote:
Originally posted by Emma.:
....does that mean then that you basically chose someone you liked, slept wtih them and then made the decision to stay loyal?

Apparently it was as simple as making a commitment to each other in the fields holding hands, or jumping over a broomstick (i.e. African American slaves).

I have been chatting with my fiancee the psychologist about this as we have discussed it. She just finished reading "Marriage: A history" (which I heard choice excerpts from while she was reading it). It looks like an excellent book on the subject. If I can summarize the book, all this shit we have wrapped ourselves in about marriage is very very new and much more wrapped up in Christian cultural baggage/myth than anything HRH Jesus said. In fact the stuff that Jesus said was probably not what Jesus said about it, if you want to get right down to it, since the prudish Church Fathers got to work over those manuscripts before they got to us.

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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
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Oh, yay. The Church Re-Wrote The Bible. [Disappointed] [Snore]

[Steps carefully around the Dead Horse, moving right along, then:]

I honestly can't see how porn WOULDN'T affect the person using it. I mean, everything affects people. I'm sure my habits vis-a-vis gardening magazines have an impact on the kind of person I am. And surely porn, being, um, more "pumped up" (so to speak) would be even more powerful. Ahem.

I don't think I want to be the kind of person I'd be if I used porn regularly. And I'm sure I wouldn't want to be married to that kind of person. So color me insecure. (And most of the women I know as well.)

I just don't think that using anything that causes a partner to feel massively insecure is a Good Thing. At least when the problem is as widespread among people as it seems to be, judging on anecdotal evidence like the above (I've heard stories like that too).

This is going to sound totally goofy (blame it on the wine I'm having) but what would you think of a man who spent hours of his free time drooling over new car advertisements, week after week.... and drove a five-year-old car? Wouldn't you figure he was shopping? There are hobbyists, but even so.... And I've never met a hobbyist that, given enough money, wouldn't go for one of the beauties in the glossies in a heartbeat.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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RooK

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It's certainly true that binding people to unrealistic expectations can be dangerous or damaging - be it presented in pornography, television, movies, or sacred texts.

[ 20. February 2006, 06:25: Message edited by: RooK ]

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Chapelhead

I am
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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
It's certainly true that binding people to unrealistic expectations can be dangerous or damaging - be it presented in pornography, television, movies, or sacred texts.

<somewhat devil's advocate, for the sake of trying to work out the arguments in my own head>

If this is the case then shouldn't we act on the much more widespread unrealistic expectations in film and television, everything from movies that show a wildly exciting life to be had to cosmetic commercials? Surely porn is one part of this much bigger problem? But I don't see campaigns to get Hollywood or the advertising industry closed.

quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
Some of the greatest sensual art has been paid for by Christian churches over the centuries. Sure they tack on a halo or two to tone it down, or named the statue "David" but folks make no mistake that could easily have been named "Studboy" and gone the other way.

Presumably you're thinking of Michealangelo's David, rather than Donatello's Camp David - click on "Statues of David", then the third one down (observes the two-click rule for links to "porn"). [Biased]

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At times like this I find myself thinking, what would the Amish do?

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ananke
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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
I think about a career with one of the highest rates of drug abuse and required counselling - commercial fishing - and I feel numbed.

I've had some experience with both careers by proxy) and the main difference lies in the totality of the career.

Commercial fishing takes over you life. You're ruled by tides and weather and repaying the constant loans. You watch numbers until they're meaningless then work for 72 hours, come home to your kids snarling and drunk just so you can maybe sleep before the next round. You face the death of friends and family constantly as well.

Porn takes over your life. You're a hole or a dick and that is it. You're valued by just how much you'll do for money, just how much abuse you're willing to take. You take jobs until you're numb enough to turn to anything to either feel or make yourself really numb. So after you've packed yourself with ice to ache the burn of the fiftieth man jacking off in you, you go home and try and sleep while worrying about just how that test is going to work out.

Difference being? Commercial fishing leaves room for hobbies and for enjoyment. There are expectations based on gender (i.e. not many people who are commercial skippers knit or sew) and they create their own problems but if someone announces at a party you work on boats, the request to com on your face rarely pops up.

Porn 'stars' get trapped into a societal ideal of what sex is and what it means. Porn consumers also cop this. Like I said previously I've got experience with the addiction dynamic of it and the 'value' aspect. I have read some truly beautiful stories that are categorised as porn. I've read some 'literature' that feels like porn. The object of the porn is something completely foreign - it's this homogenised 'perfection' of emotion. There is no room for the individual or for humanity.

To be clear though - I am talking mainstream porn, the stuff down at blockbuster and the stuff that is based entirely on the formula.

Also as far as the ability of porn to alleviate social constrictions - the strict adherence of porn to a formula (across gender mixes and class) and the fact it's appeal is based upon that forumla whch is the reason it can become addictive) I sincerely doubt that effectiveness. Not to mention the ex who was a porn addict once congratulated me on my insight when I mentioned the girl he really wanted was impossible because she was innocent enough to give him some sense of control but would behave like a whore for his enjoyment and adore him like his mother. He didn't see anything wrong with that. That he would want a partner to debase themselves truly for his enjoyment (not BDSM-styled games or roleplaying).

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...and I bear witness, this grace, this prayer so long forgotten.

A Perfect Circle - Magdalena

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