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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Whats wrong with porn?
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

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It's one of those things that is more dead the more active it is. The more it raises it's ugly head, the more life it sucks into it's black hole of a proboscis.

Feed it and it get's hungrier. Nuture it and it get's deader. Satisfy it and it grows ever less satisfied. Recognise it's harmful effect and it becomes more compulsive.

These are the marks of an addiction.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Alfred E. Neuman

What? Me worry?
# 6855

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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Feed it and it get's hungrier. Nuture it and it get's deader. Satisfy it and it grows ever less satisfied. Recognise it's harmful effect and it becomes more compulsive.

Well, of course it does. It's a chip off the old block. My kids take after me, too!

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--Formerly: Gort--

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mdijon
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Get thee behind me Satan, for though has in mind not the things of God but the things of men.

Kids aren't like that, anyway. But yes, it is a part of me.

Now return to thy lair and trouble me no further.

[ 22. February 2006, 06:24: Message edited by: mdijon ]

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Alfred E. Neuman

What? Me worry?
# 6855

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You were created in the image of God. The least you could do is realize how He went about it and take responsiblity for your creations. After all, they worship and demand your attention just as His children do.

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--Formerly: Gort--

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mdijon
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# 8520

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Some of my creations were better not created.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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mdijon
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# 8520

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PS Who says I'm not taking responsibility?

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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El Greco
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# 9313

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quote:
Originally posted by Caz...:
OK, thanks - that's clearer. [Smile]

Wouldn't that make all (pleasurable) sexual activity unhelpful though?

I was thinking about it... OK, it took me a few days, but while I was skimming through the Apostolic Constitutions today, I read this:

quote:
When the natural purgations do appear in the wives, let not their husbands approach them, out of regard to the children to be begotten; for the law has forbidden it, for it says: "Thou shalt not come near thy wife when she is in her separation." Nor, indeed, let them frequent their wives' company when they are with child. For they do this not for the begetting of children, but for the sake of pleasure. Now a lover of God ought not to be a lover of pleasure.
I think that this quotation shows clearly the faith of the ancient church. I also think that it shows how far from that faith we have gone.

By the way, this worldview has been confessed by at least two ecumenical councils.

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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.

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Chorister

Completely Frocked
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quote:
Originally posted by andreas1984:
Now a lover of God ought not to be a lover of pleasure. I think that this quotation shows clearly the faith of the ancient church. I also think that it shows how far from that faith we have gone.


If this ascetic form of the faith is what we should follow, perhaps we'd all be better off in sackcloth and ashes living like hermits in the hills.
I react strongly to this quote because I'm all for the enjoyment of pleasure (it is after all part of God's creation). But I'd far rather share that pleasure with a real, live human being than a picture. Perhaps it is different for those who are not fortunate enough to have close human friends. But I find it strange to comprehend - if indeed it is even true - how some people would prefer pictures to real live relationships. Surely that means something has gone wrong somewhere in their psyche?

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252

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Yet another stunning example of Andreas presenting his somewhat leftfield views as the clear teaching of the undivided church!

Pleasure is good. The problem with sin is not that it is pleasurable but that it is a barrier to the truest happiness, which human beings find in union with God and with each other.

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insert amusing sig. here

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El Greco
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Divine Outlaw Dwarf, you keep confusing Christ's gospel with sin. It seems that where you were brought up sin is a monster and everybody's fighting it. Live in peace! There's much more in life than sin.

The quotation I made is from the ancient Church and it is authoritative. Your version of the gospel is in disagreement with theirs. Get over it.

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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.

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Codepoet

Best Bear On Board
# 5964

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quote:
Originally posted by ReginaShoe:

In general, a big help in self-control with difficult issues is putting up barriers or "pre-committing" - setting a loud obnoxious alarm clock across the room so you HAVE to get up, making sure you don't buy the fattening snacks so they are not a temptation while you are at home watching TV, etc. I should think it is really hard to put up those barriers when you have to use a computer anyway, there is no accountability (what you do can easily go undetected) and the temptation is just a click away.

My brother once asked me to help him sort his computer out. He had installed some software called "covenent eyes" the basic premise of which was that it would monitor his internet usage, and would email somebody if he ever starting browsing certain web sites. Problem was that is was incompatable with something else, and because it was designed not to let remove it easily, he had to come to me to get the whole mess sorted out. But it was of interest as it provided a means of "pre-committing" as you have just described. However the problem with this theory is that if like me you know a few things about computers you could find away around the system if you wanted to, which makes the systems useless. But still - nice idea.

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It's more important to be kind than to be right.

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mdijon
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It does work a bit though, because the delay in having to disable or uninstall it is long enough to allow you to think again.

On a bad day, no help at all, but enough to stop a casual, unthinking slip.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Codepoet

Best Bear On Board
# 5964

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I guess, but every good computer programmer writes some software to automate anything they have done more than twice, so you before you know it you would have an on/off switch on your desktop [Smile] In case you forgot how to google there is a more info here.

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It's more important to be kind than to be right.

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mdijon
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Someone with an on/off switch - or any easy disable set up - clearly isn't seriously intending to use the software to prevent themselves 'slipping'. One would hope that in a good moment, all such stuff would be disabled.

When you're just starting out in the recovery, even that 10-20 seconds can be valuable thinking time.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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mdijon
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# 8520

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quote:
Originally posted by Divine Outlaw Dwarf:
Yet another stunning example of Andreas presenting his somewhat leftfield views as the clear teaching of the undivided church!

I would suggest not dignifying it further.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Jerry Boam
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# 4551

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A source for such software for those who need it:
X3 Watch
quote:
A person of your choice (an accountability partner) will receive an email containing all possible questionable sites you may have visited within the month. This information is meant to encourage open and honest conversation between friends and help us all be more accountable.
From the people at xxx church

I used to think this was all rubbish, but then I realized I was being myopic and narcissitic--just because I didn't have an addiction to porn, despite considerable exposure to it, I couldn't generalize that to a theory that it could not be addictive. I don't agree with a good deal of what they say at xxx church (e.g, "masturbation is selfish"), but I can see that this could be helpful to a person in trouble with porn.

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If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving is not for you.

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The Lady of the Lake
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# 4347

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That's good you realised it could become addictive. The problem AFAIK though is that even if it isn't, it does seem to be able to influence the attitude a number of men have towards female partners in a negative way.
I'd really like to see the church, and wider society, tackle that issue directly.

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If I had a coat, I would get it.

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Whitelighter
Apprentice
# 11058

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Porn, funny at first, then all gets a bit boring after a while, same old stuff, id rather have a beer and watch a film with a story line, oh and a script other than 'oh yeah, you like that dontcha, take it big boy' etc. (yes my choice of porn would be from the 'Falcon' label) Oh, just joined Ship of Fools, Hi there to everyone.
xx

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mist...cemetery...halloween. Should end well.

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Jerry Boam
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# 4551

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quote:
Originally posted by The Lady of the Lake:
The problem AFAIK though is that even if it isn't, it does seem to be able to influence the attitude a number of men have towards female partners in a negative way.

The same could be said of the Church and it's traditions of patriarchy.

In fact, the same is said by my mum at every conceivable opportunity. Her favorite theory: Monotheism = Judaism = Christianity = Islam = Masculine insecurity, rage and hatred of women = social institutions designed to opress women and keep them as subservient second class citizens in a male dominated world, with all women not claimed and defended as male property subject to punitive rape.

When I point out that polytheistic societies with female dieites seem to show the same sorts of social structures and that some Christians, like her boy, here, are not like that, she says, "well that may be, but.." and then goes off again about bruqas and Fathers and Orthodox controlled islands where no woman may tread, etc.

Shall we then go on a campaign to abolish monotheistic, patriarchal religions? My mum would say yes.

The question is: is there something about written drawn, painted, photographed or filmed sex that somehow produces negative results in the observer, or the subject?

Your comment seems to suggest that there is some automatic, malign effect on the attitudes of male heterosexual viewers of pornographic images of women toward their female partners. I don't believe that this is true, though it may be true in some cases.

The idea seems to suggest that men are crude automatons, and that a certain range of visual stimuli produce a narrow and predictable inner response. This is unsupported by my observations of men and I don't believe it to be true of myself, though I recognize inherent bias in that analysis.

[ETA: lest you think it's just my mum, try this impassioned statement on Russian Orthodoxy ]

[ 22. February 2006, 16:29: Message edited by: Jerry Boam ]

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If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving is not for you.

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the_raptor
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quote:
Originally posted by Whitelighter:
Porn, funny at first, then all gets a bit boring after a while, same old stuff

You just need to get creative with Google's image search.

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Mal: look at this! Appears we got here just in the nick of time. What does that make us?
Zoe: Big damn heroes, sir!
Mal: Ain't we just?
— Firefly

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ChastMastr
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# 716

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Welcome, Whitelighter! I haven't seen Falcon stuff other than ads for it, I think...

David

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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The Lady of the Lake
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# 4347

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quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Boam:
Your comment seems to suggest that there is some automatic, malign effect on the attitudes of male heterosexual viewers of pornographic images of women toward their female partners.

Not quite. I was careful to say

quote:
it does seem to be able to influence the attitude a number of men have towards female partners in a negative way.
'A number of' means 'not all men', and therefore excludes the possibility of the negative effect of porn being automatic.

I think we all need to take responsibility for whatever images we have of the opposite sex (or the same sex for that matter).

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If I had a coat, I would get it.

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Jerry Boam
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# 4551

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But why then is this subgroup's problem "the problem?"

Perhaps I misunderstood. I thought you were saying that even when porn was not addictive, it has this negative consequence for some significant subgroup of men, and this was the problem that the Church and wider society have to take on.

To what extent might the problem these men have be caused by other factors? Might porn only have a negative consequence for them if they have been exposed to these factors?

I think that what we have to take on in Church and across the wider society is the attitude that women are second class humans. This delusion seems to be fed by a great deal of the Tanach, The Epistles of Paul and the writings of the early church... How do we deal with that history? Surely that must be part of dealing with the issue in the church and wider society?

Is the problem of some porn-using men's views of women all that is wrong with porn? Or is there something about making it and viewing or reading it that is intrinsically damaging to the people involved?

Regardless of whether or not there is something intrinsically wrong with it, can we deal with the reality that it is part of system in which women's lives and freedom are not valued--or are valued as cheap resources for the use and exploitation of others?

The issues raised in RuthW's post are a more compelling argument for an ethical resistance to porn* than the questionable possibility that some men may develop negative views of women because of exposure to it.


*by this I mean a comitment not to use it, support it, or condone the conditions that make it a problem.

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If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving is not for you.

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the_raptor
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quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Boam:
Regardless of whether or not there is something intrinsically wrong with it, can we deal with the reality that it is part of system in which women's lives and freedom are not valued--or are valued as cheap resources for the use and exploitation of others?

[Killing me]

If anything most western made porn is an exploitation of the stupid men who buy it by the truck load. Most porn actresses are paid quite well.

And personally I don't see any difference between selling your body for porno's or selling your body doing back breaking labour. And you think most businesses value their employees lives and freedom, and don't think of them as a cheap resource? Did you miss the massive problem in western society of woman who want careers, not being able to get the time to have children, as they are expected to work 80 hours a week with unpaid overtime to move up the corporate ladder?

[Killing me]

You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake.

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Mal: look at this! Appears we got here just in the nick of time. What does that make us?
Zoe: Big damn heroes, sir!
Mal: Ain't we just?
— Firefly

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
And personally I don't see any difference between selling your body for porno's or selling your body doing back breaking labour.

Me neither. And I think it's disgraceful that people are viciously exploited so that we can eat fresh produce and buy inexpensive clothing.

quote:
And you think most businesses value their employees lives and freedom, and don't think of them as a cheap resource? Did you miss the massive problem in western society of woman who want careers, not being able to get the time to have children, as they are expected to work 80 hours a week with unpaid overtime to move up the corporate ladder?
No one here is arguing in favor of these things. Though it seems to me that women with skills so valued by the corporate world that someone wants them to work 80 hours a week probably have more economic options than the women who get into porn because it beats the hell out of giving blowjobs to strangers in alleys.

[ 22. February 2006, 19:11: Message edited by: RuthW ]

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Jerry Boam
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# 4551

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quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
If anything most western made porn is an exploitation of the stupid men who buy it by the truck load. Most porn actresses are paid quite well.

Did I say "Western porn?" (hint:NO)

Let's see some evidence on your pay claims. I think they are bullshit.

quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
And you think most businesses value their employees' lives and freedom, and don't think of them as a cheap resource?

Not an issue I was discussing, but, as it happens, no--I think many businesses value their employees lives and freedom to the minimum extent required by law. Again, this has little to do with the issues TLOL and I were discussing.

quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
Did you miss the massive problem in western society of woman who want careers, not being able to get the time to have children, as they are expected to work 80 hours a week with unpaid overtime to move up the corporate ladder?

No. In fact, I think these are related issues. Read my post again and you may be able to guess how.

quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake.

Nor did I claim to be. Your point?

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If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving is not for you.

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Jerry Boam
Shipmate
# 4551

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
...there are a lot of sucky jobs out there that people will do if someone will pay them enough. And I think he's right to say that the only thing different about the porn industry is that sex is involved; that we are as a culture weird about sex (and for Christians this goes double) is probably one of the main reasons we periodically get threads on the Ship about whether or not porn is okay and we don't get threads about whether it's okay to eat fish, which must be harvested by commercial fisherman at great personal risk.

I happen to think that porn should stay legal for the same reasons that I think prostitution and drug dealing should be legalized -- these things should all be out in the open so they can be more easily regulated and policed. But I also don't think we should kid ourselves that this will make everything okay. Workers in all sorts of less dangerous and less degrading occupations are exploited on a regular basis because some people are willing to exploit others and others are willing to be exploited or feel they have no better option.

Thought this might be a good moment to reiterate the good points that seem to have been lost on some... and to point to Amsterdam as a perfect example of what RuthW is discussing in the second paragraph. Legalization does make it easier to police and regulate the industy but it does not make the problems go away.

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If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving is not for you.

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Nicolemr
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# 28

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Seems to me that we're debating more the question of the morality of the porn industry rather than porn per se.

What if it were possible to create porn pictures that perfectly resembled humans but were totally computer generated? No living actress or actor to be exploited, just very well paid designers and programmers. What would the moral ramifications be?

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by nicolemrw:
What if it were possible to create porn pictures that perfectly resembled humans but were totally computer generated? No living actress or actor to be exploited, just very well paid designers and programmers. What would the moral ramifications be?

Same as they were prior to the invention of the camera (or daguerreotype, or whatever), IMO -- comparable to the use of alcohol. Some just aren't interested, some can consume responsibly, some shouldn't consume any, ever.
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Jerry Boam
Shipmate
# 4551

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quote:
Originally posted by nicolemrw:
Seems to me that we're debating more the question of the morality of the porn industry rather than porn per se.

What if it were possible to create porn pictures that perfectly resembled humans but were totally computer generated? No living actress or actor to be exploited, just very well paid designers and programmers. What would the moral ramifications be?

Can you separate porn from the industry that makes it? To me, this is the central issue. There may be others. What do you think?

Regarding computer generated porn, this is pretty much possible now. There are people who spend a lot of time coming close to this and lots of amateurs who work with pre constructed models and software like poser to create virtual pin-ups or sex scenes.

To complicate matters, among the texture and model sets that can be loaded into this software are some photorealistic kids...

Check out the galleries at http://www.renderosity.com/

There are plenty of landscapes, starships, and such like--but it's clear that there is a huge amount of time and energy going into the softcore porn side of rendering virtual images.

I only know about this because I work with graphic software and do some 3d modeling in my job--Based on this, I would imagine that there is a lot of much harder, nastier virtual porn out there. Maybe some Shipmates know more about this?

[edited to add: you need a login to see the galleries at Renderosity, but the marketplace is free. See these Poser-related offerings for an idea of what is out there.

[ 22. February 2006, 21:10: Message edited by: Jerry Boam ]

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If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving is not for you.

Posts: 2165 | From: Miskatonic University | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290

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posted by unfaegne eorl

quote:
I don't know how one can get around the sermon on the mount (matthew 5:27-28) You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
How about:

“you self-righteous religious leaders who give people a hard time for sinning, you are hypocrites because you also have been consumed by the same desire, even though you may not have acted it out”

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Posts: 6477 | From: Alice's Restaurant (UK Franchise) | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jerry Boam
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Food for thought: Richard Kadrey's "Second Floor Girls"

The story isn't porn. It deals with prostitution/sexual indentured servitude in a future with advanced biotechnology and may be disturbing to some readers.

The story says something about the way of thinking about people that can accompany use of porn and, I would imagine, is required for use of prostitutes.

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ReginaShoe
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quote:
Originally posted by nicolemrw:
What if it were possible to create porn pictures that perfectly resembled humans but were totally computer generated? No living actress or actor to be exploited, just very well paid designers and programmers. What would the moral ramifications be?

You bring up an interesting point. As Jerry Boam points out, that is pretty much possible now. The question it brings up that is really sticky is - what about entirely computer-generated child pornography? No children were exploited in the making of it, but society *may* still have an interest in doing everything possible to discourage an appetite for this material.

Or, if computer-generated regular porn were analogous to alcohol, would computer-generated child porn be more analogous to heroin? (i.e., we don't care if you're not technically hurting someone else by just consuming this, we are still going to do everything possible to keep you from consuming it.)

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Posts: 598 | From: Colorado | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
the_raptor
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# 10533

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
And you think most businesses value their employees lives and freedom, and don't think of them as a cheap resource? Did you miss the massive problem in western society of woman who want careers, not being able to get the time to have children, as they are expected to work 80 hours a week with unpaid overtime to move up the corporate ladder?
No one here is arguing in favor of these things. Though it seems to me that women with skills so valued by the corporate world that someone wants them to work 80 hours a week probably have more economic options than the women who get into porn because it beats the hell out of giving blowjobs to strangers in alleys.
But there skills aren't valued much. They are just expected to work 80 hours a week to keep costs down for their employer. Which makes them a team player and thus enhances their career.

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Mal: look at this! Appears we got here just in the nick of time. What does that make us?
Zoe: Big damn heroes, sir!
Mal: Ain't we just?
— Firefly

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the_raptor
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quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Boam:
Let's see some evidence on your pay claims. I think they are bullshit.

I have read it in multiple sources. The problem is finding a link using a search engine (I just get constant links to porn sites). It is easy to get men to perform in porn, but harder to get woman, which is why the women command the large paychecks (especially after they get famous). Coincidentally, did you ever notice how rare it is to see a porn video that focuses on a male star, but ones focusing on female stars are quite common?

I never said working in porn was nice. But there are plenty of people who I can think of that get exploited far worse for less money.

Found a BBC article about a British porn actress.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4157728.stm

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Mal: look at this! Appears we got here just in the nick of time. What does that make us?
Zoe: Big damn heroes, sir!
Mal: Ain't we just?
— Firefly

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
(I just get constant links to porn sites)

Time to clear out those cookies.
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
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From the BBC article;

quote:

The pay was poor to start with, but it gradually improved....The money really started rolling in when she got into producing her own shows and three years ago she had made enough to put a deposit down on a house.....Miss Thorne has plans to retire gracefully...."There are one or two who are in their mid to late 30s and are looking haggard and old. They have lots of plastic surgery and it's really just a freak appeal. It's so sad really,"

Reading between the lines it doesn't sound that great for most people most of the time. She only got enough for a deposit on a house when she was producing her own shows.
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
ananke
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# 10059

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quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
I have read it in multiple sources. The problem is finding a link using a search engine (I just get constant links to porn sites). It is easy to get men to perform in porn, but harder to get woman, which is why the women command the large paychecks (especially after they get famous).

The women also have higher levels of injury and illness. And only a few are paid more, not all. Given the amount of porn outpaces the 'legit' film indutsry, the number of 'stars' is far less fo both genders.

Then you've got the ssues of worked exploitation as far as class and race go.


But to go onto the concept of porn without an industry - it still sets up a false mechanism of reward behaviour. It still sets up physical intimacy as a reward for no action. Not to mention the escalation factors - anal wasn't common fifteen years ago. Now it is in almost every flick. Then there is the access factor - ease of access triggers behaviours otherwise not seen in individuals. Anyone here have push-button morphine? Different behaviours for different release systems.

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A Perfect Circle - Magdalena

Posts: 617 | From: australia | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
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# 8520

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quote:
Originally posted by ananke:
Then there is the access factor - ease of access triggers behaviours otherwise not seen in individuals. Anyone here have push-button morphine? Different behaviours for different release systems.

Perfectly described.
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ronja
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# 4693

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Why wouldn't people who view a lot of porn be affected by the attitudes to women in porn?

I know that I am affected by attitudes in the video games I play, in the literature I read and what I watch on TV. I choose to distance myself from some material since I don't want to become a certain type of person.

Advertising exists because the advertisers believe we will be affected by their repeated message. Do you think companies would spend so much money on advertising if it didn't work?

I am not saying that everyone will be affected to the same degree or that all porn contains a demeaning attitude towards women, but I think it is naive to deny the possibility of porn affecting men's attitudes towards women.

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Schroedinger's cat

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quote:
Originally posted by nicolemrw:
Seems to me that we're debating more the question of the morality of the porn industry rather than porn per se.

What if it were possible to create porn pictures that perfectly resembled humans but were totally computer generated? No living actress or actor to be exploited, just very well paid designers and programmers. What would the moral ramifications be?

You'd get a lot more people taking up graphic design as a job...

This is the point that has been made a number of times, that the problems with those for whom porn is a problem are problems with them primarily. Making it virtual ( and so removing some of the limitations with using real people ), would only make that situation worse.

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Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
R.A.M.
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quote:
"There are one or two who are in their mid to late 30s and are looking haggard and old. They have lots of plastic surgery and it's really just a freak appeal. It's so sad really," she says.
Good proof about what was said about porn giving unrealistic expectations of appearence. I'll soon be twenty; if I look at some of the people of my own age who I currently find attractive I am pretty sure I will still find them attractive when we meet again in ten years time. I would certainly hope so. The 3d images linked to earlier showed somethign quite similar. Girls(they didn't look like women) in stupidly short skirts; lots of perfectly globular breasts.

I still can't think of myself to think of porn as inherently evil; and practically a lot about it which is wrong is common with a lot of things. One main problem is surely that it can facilitate that thing called Lust; lust is interesting because it harms the originator as much as the object. Lust doesn't help men become well rounded people, indeed in some forms all it does is demean and infantilise the lustee; reducing them to a drooling hormone-slave. Pornography can do the same thing. I'm not going to pretend I live in some sexually pure world - I'm at the back end of my teens afterall. Pornography/masturbation has the effect increasingly of depressing me. I feel stupid and weak as a result of it. I still have a sex drive and if it isn't satisfied I will occasionally return to the computer; only to come away dissapointed. Nothing like the warm glow of sharing yourself with someone you 'love'(whatever that means).

The second half of the problem with porn has been well trodden - yes I think it objectifies women, yes I think it makes men think of women as sexual objects in a way that diminishes personality and the like, and yes I think that may be a thin end of the wedge with all sorts of more serious abusive practices on the other end. I am also a big believer in ethical procurement; until someone starts putting a code of practice mark onto pornography then one has no guarentee quite what one is supporting.

Pornography like lust cuts both ways it objectifies the one and infantilises the other. Even before we put Christianity into the picture I think both these things are wrong. Once we factor in christianity; I don't thinksome of God's most amazing creations where supposed to be reduced to their servile sexual functions; nor are we making full use of our talents and abilities that God has given us if we allow ourselves to be ruled by a fleshy appendage. (Easier said than done perhaps)

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Formerly Real Ale Methodist
Back after prolonged absence...

Posts: 1584 | From: (Sunshine on) Leith | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
the_raptor
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
From the BBC article;

quote:

The pay was poor to start with, but it gradually improved....The money really started rolling in when she got into producing her own shows and three years ago she had made enough to put a deposit down on a house.....Miss Thorne has plans to retire gracefully...."There are one or two who are in their mid to late 30s and are looking haggard and old. They have lots of plastic surgery and it's really just a freak appeal. It's so sad really,"

Reading between the lines it doesn't sound that great for most people most of the time. She only got enough for a deposit on a house when she was producing her own shows.
And you think most young workers make enough to get house deposits? My housemate has been working in IT for the last six years and now has enough to afford the deposit on a small rural block. And I live in an extremely cheap area. Workers today will be lucky if they can afford a home deposit when they are in their mid-30's.

--------------------
Mal: look at this! Appears we got here just in the nick of time. What does that make us?
Zoe: Big damn heroes, sir!
Mal: Ain't we just?
— Firefly

Posts: 3921 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
R.A.M.
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quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
And you think most young workers make enough to get house deposits? My housemate has been working in IT for the last six years and now has enough to afford the deposit on a small rural block. And I live in an extremely cheap area. Workers today will be lucky if they can afford a home deposit when they are in their mid-30's.

A few of those workers will be lucky and get onto the right ladder at some stage and be able to afford a house deposit in three years - like Ms. Thorne. This doesn't make it easier for all those others to get a house; as you have pointed out. Likewise just because Ms. Thorne is directing and making a good wage it doesn't mean everyone in porn can get into directing and have a house three years later.

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Formerly Real Ale Methodist
Back after prolonged absence...

Posts: 1584 | From: (Sunshine on) Leith | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
My housemate has been working in IT for the last six years and now has enough to afford the deposit on a small rural block.

He probably isn't the person you'd pick for an interview to demonstrate how successful one can be in IT.

If this lady's on the top of the tree (so to speak) I infer a lot about the pyramid below her. There is a hint that it was only when she started running her own show things picked up.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
The Lady of the Lake
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quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Boam:
The question is: is there something about written drawn, painted, photographed or filmed sex that somehow produces negative results in the observer, or the subject ?

If you read an earlier post of mine on the thread, you'll see that I tried to make a point about focus on genitals versus erotic art that looks at the whole person, symbolic ideas, etc.
So I don't think that it's easy to say that depictions of sex always produce negative results in the observer. However, my own attitude is that when people tend to discuss the problem that porn can cause re: men's attitudes to women, they're talking about the photographic or film variety that has been available to the mass of people since the 1950s. They're not talking about nudes depicted in art history.

quote:
To what extent might the problem these men have be caused by other factors ? Might porn only have a negative consequence for them if they have been exposed to these factors ?
No. I think regular vieweing of pornography (as I've defined it in this post) causes problems by itself actually. Among other things, the very fact that it is based on photography makes it, in my view, voyeuristic and exhibitionist. The fact is, most real women do not look like the 'women' who appear in any pornography. This inevitably invites comparison between women who appear in porn and the vast majority who do not.
It must surely mean that the way men who have grown up in a society where porn has just about been normalised think about women, is different to how previous generations of men think of women. It means that they are more likely to have unrealistic expectations of what prospective female partners should look like and behave like. For most women, this is intolerable and unacceptable. I don't see any good reason for any man to make excuses about using porn while in a relationship with a woman. To me it would constitute a form of infidelity, and therefore punishable by ending the relationship, should the offender refuse to amend his ways. That's certainly how a lot of women I know think too.

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If I had a coat, I would get it.

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ChastMastr
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quote:
Originally posted by The Lady of the Lake:
I don't see any good reason for any man to make excuses about using porn while in a relationship with a woman. To me it would constitute a form of infidelity, and therefore punishable by ending the relationship, should the offender refuse to amend his ways. That's certainly how a lot of women I know think too.

I assume this would also apply to a woman using porn while in a relationship with a man?

David

[ 23. February 2006, 17:21: Message edited by: ChastMastr ]

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by The Lady of the Lake:
The fact is, most real women do not look like the 'women' who appear in any pornography. This inevitably invites comparison between women who appear in porn and the vast majority who do not.
It must surely mean that the way men who have grown up in a society where porn has just about been normalised think about women, is different to how previous generations of men think of women. It means that they are more likely to have unrealistic expectations of what prospective female partners should look like and behave like.

I think it's worth pointing out that porn has changed a lot in recent decades because of the advent of plastic surgery and the changes in beauty standards. The porn at websites that feature "vintage porn" looks very different to me than newer porn. Heck, I could have posed for pornographic pictures 100 years ago, or even 50 years ago; today I am too tubby and my breasts too natural.

I'm not convinced that men today think about women any differently than they used to. Men have always been interested in looking at women and at representations of women, and I know a fair number of men who do not find modern porn at all sexy precisely because it's not real-looking -- hence the market for vintage porn. Also, it doesn't take porn to give men unrealistic ideas about women. I have one friend who said the first time he saw a woman lying naked on her back he was surprised and a bit disappointed that her breasts didn't have the same shape they had when she was upright and wearing a bra.

Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jerry Boam
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quote:
Originally posted by The Lady of the Lake:
No. I think regular vieweing of pornography (as I've defined it in this post) causes problems by itself actually.

Here we seem to be back in the territory of automatic corruption of male automata that you were at some pains to distance yourself from earlier.


quote:
Originally posted by The Lady of the Lake:
Among other things, the very fact that it is based on photography makes it, in my view, voyeuristic and exhibitionist.

This seems more like the philosophy of the Taliban than anything I am familiar with. What is wrong with photography? I have pictures of my kids on the shelf over my desk. They are walking in the park, their hair caught in the low, golden sun of an early summer evening. As I revel in the memory of the glorious day when those pictures were taken, am I somehow conditioning myself to be disapointed when I come home to them on rainy days?

quote:
Originally posted by The Lady of the Lake:
The fact is, most real women do not look like the 'women' who appear in any pornography. This inevitably invites comparison between women who appear in porn and the vast majority who do not.

The universe of porn contains many, many images of women who are not the silicone enhanced, surgically modified ideals you seem to imagine. There is certainly a great constellation of imagery of that kind of subject, but there is much, much that is not.

quote:
Originally posted by The Lady of the Lake:
It must surely mean that the way men who have grown up in a society where porn has just about been normalised think about women, is different to how previous generations of men think of women. It means that they are more likely to have unrealistic expectations of what prospective female partners should look like and behave like.

It would certainly mean that if men were all dullards with problems distinguishing packaged adworld imagery from reality. Must suck to be them, eh? Imagine how disappointed they are when they sit down to dinner and it doesn't live up the expectations that have been written into their psyches by exposure to Gourmet magazine and the Food Channel. "This isn't like it was when Nigella did it!" And think of the sad deflation they feel as they compare their flats and houses with the expectations generated by Architectural Digest and HG... Not to mention the pernicious influence of motion pictures. Why, I remember how hurt and dissapointed I was when I met some old friends at a restaurant in New York and our conversation wasn't the one from "My Dinner with Andre" that I was lusting for and expected as my due...

quote:
Originally posted by The Lady of the Lake:
I don't see any good reason for any man to make excuses about using porn while in a relationship with a woman.

I would think that a relationship in which either party felt they had to make excuses for their behavior was not particularly healthy to begin with. Sounds a bit like the man is infantilized in this hypothetical relationship.

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If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving is not for you.

Posts: 2165 | From: Miskatonic University | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Boam:
Why, I remember how hurt and dissapointed I was when I met some old friends at a restaurant in New York and our conversation wasn't the one from "My Dinner with Andre" that I was lusting for and expected as my due...

Dude, you are sick. [Biased] [Big Grin]

It seems to me that the near-constant presence of airbrushed and/or digitally manipulated images of surgically enhanced women (who also spend three hours in the gym every day) wearing clothes is a much bigger problem than porn is for everyone's ideas of what women should look like. The images of their male counterparts aren't quite as ubiquitous, but they aren't very helpful either.

Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged



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