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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Preaching the gospel to Roman Catholics
Niënna

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I agree with LutheranChik.

I was good friends with this Muslim girl at uni. She wore those things that cover your whole head and your forehead and your neck. I can't remember the precise word for that specific headscarf. I think what made our friendship good was that I valued her religion and how it impacted her as a person and vis versa. Because a lot people judged her by what she wore. She was incredibly amazing girl - so funny and humble and just really cool. And what was incredibly humbling was that she asked me to pray for her a couple of times. I was really surprised that she asked me more than once! Not to become to become a christian or anything, but just because she was going through difficulties. I was so honored that she asked me. I once gave her a card with some Hebrew scriptures (like from Psalms) and she gave me some Koranic scriptures and we were both so blessed by each other.

After 9-11, she stopped hanging out with non-Muslim people and pretty much only was in the company of "orthodox" Muslim females. Her parents were incredibly strict and very, very involved with her life so I wouldn't be surprised if that had something to do with it.

I think it is far more loving to care about where people are coming from and than maybe to share where you are coming from too.

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[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land

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LutheranChik
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I wouldn't call that "caring" about me as anything more than the theological version of a notch on a bedpost. (Thank you, Rainbow Kate, for that metaphor.)

Again -- if they really cared, they'd listen to me and want to form a genuine relationship with me not based on trying to "fix" me. I don't want to "fix" them unless they indicate a sincere wanting to be "fixed" in my theological direction.

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Niënna

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I agree.

I wasn't trying to convert her - we were just friends that happened to be from different religions. I think it makes all the difference in the world when you genuinely care about someone.

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[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land

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duchess

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quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I wouldn't call that "caring" about me as anything more than the theological version of a notch on a bedpost. (Thank you, Rainbow Kate, for that metaphor.)

Again -- if they really cared, they'd listen to me and want to form a genuine relationship with me not based on trying to "fix" me. I don't want to "fix" them unless they indicate a sincere wanting to be "fixed" in my theological direction.

I'm curious why you felt Joyfulsoul was not caring about her friend but trying to make her a Muslim notch on the bedpost. What did she say in her post that made you feel that way? Is it wrong at all to share your religion like she did in her post? What should she have done different LutheranChik?

I say this since I too had a similar experience many years ago with a Muslim Californian chick when I worked for a Palo Alto Call Center for a software company.

[eta: explanation for questions]

[ 09. February 2006, 18:39: Message edited by: duchess ]

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LutheranChik
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Oops...JoyfulSoul and I cross-posted. I didn't see her post. I was responding to the other post about "caring" meaning "wanting to save from doom."

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duchess

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Ahh, got it sistah. Thx. [Big Grin]

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James the Confident
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quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
My denomination practices open communion

The only experience I have had of the Lutheran church was in the USA where I received a severe dressing down for taking communion without being a Lutheran. Perhaps that was a local view of the minister concerned but I did feel terribly embarrased at the time. [Hot and Hormonal]

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"How do you get all those coins?" asked Mort.
IN PAIRS
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LutheranChik
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The ELCA, the largest Lutheran denomination in the US, practices open communion.

The LCMS, one of the more conservative Lutheran church bodies, does not.

As far as that goes, there are conservative churches that practice what is called close communion, where the only people allowed to commune are people who belong to that congregation. In my neck of the woods a lot of independent Baptist churches practice close communion -- if you're not one of their own flock they can't vouch for your theological correctness, and thus you don't commune.

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RainbowKate
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quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
quote:
When people try to correct my theology I try to remember that they are generally doing it because they are concerned for me.
That's not been my experience. My experience is that the people trying to correct my theology don't give a rat's patootie about me as a person, nor do they really care to hear about my own faith journey (which I'm quite happy to share), because they've already made up their minds that I am doomed.


When people assume that I am doomed, and they tell me about it to rescue me from that, I usually try to assume they are doing that because they don't want me to be doomed. That's all I was saying.
That's a generous interpretation, and true, I'm sure in the case of some people. I'm not trying to trash all evangelicals.

But the ones I've encountered haven't been of this mind. I've never felt they cared about me, but cared about converting me for their own sake. This paticular group I was friends with abroad went on a mission trip (to save the Catholics) and came back with tales of "I saved X number of Catholics." There was very much a sense they were rejoicing because they had converted these people. It always came across as very much a personal victory.

A good friend who I met at the same time was constantly persecuted by this group for being an athiest. They were endlessly frustrated that they could not convert her, but I never sensed that they cared for her soul. They cared that they had failed, and thus failed God, by not converting her. So in mind at least, they were not trying to convert her so she too would know the love and peace of God, but because they would get a few more brownie points.

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James the Confident
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Thanks for the clarification LC.

I am wondering just what people are viewing as an evangelical. I see myself as evangelical yet I work among the poor in the community and despise those who "flock steal". I firmly believe that the RC church has born again bible believing Christians in it. I also firmly believe that there are non-believers who attend exclusive AoG churches. It is a difficult and vexing question and I think we ought to be caring for people and modelling good Christian behaviour. Only then do we have the right to share our faith with them in a sensitive fashion.

I am profoundly sorry that people have suffered and been abused and I hope it ceases.

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"How do you get all those coins?" asked Mort.
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Custard
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quote:
Originally posted by GoodCatholicLad:
They can think whatever they want I don't care. It's none of their business what anyone's faith is or lack of and they should keep their mouth shut or the friendship is terminated. This is why I have a problem with fundamentalism of any faith, Christian, Muslim whatever.

So let me get this straight. Suppose there's a group out there who somehow genuinely do know truthfully that you are going to hell unless you do something / believe something / whatever. You'd rather they didn't tell you?

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RainbowKate
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James the Confident,
A definition for evangelical would be helpful, you're right. I think in actuality what I'm talking about are "Fundamentalists" not "Evangelicals" per se.

I'm talking about the people who believe their way is the only way and go about telling everyone who believes anything else they are doomed.

Fundamentalists tend to be evangelical (at least in my corner of the globe) but not vice versa. Sorry for any offense.

My own sense of evangelism is to the live the Gospel as best as possible and hope that by (trying) to love others as Christ loves them that they will know the love of Christ. That is how I came to the church, at least.

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LutheranChik
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quote:
So let me get this straight. Suppose there's a group out there who somehow genuinely do know truthfully that you are going to hell unless you do something / believe something / whatever. You'd rather they didn't tell you?

So salvation is something that someone has to earn by thinking the right things about God or doing the right things about God? And your job is to do whatever it takes to try and compel that person do whatever it is you think s/he should do, since in the end it's all down to that person "doing the right thing" or "making the right decision"?

(I wonder where the Holy Spirit is in this equation?)

Okay, Custard, I'll bite: How is it that you can know that someone else who also identifies as a Christian is actually going to hell? What are your criteria for identifying Christian poseurs ?

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Dinghy Sailor

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RainbowKate, let me get this straight, please. Are you saying that anyone who is not a universalist is a fundamentalist?

Lutheranchick, as with everything, we can't know, but we can be increasingly certain. Just like I don't know that the Edinburgh-London train will pass through Sheffield at 8.32 tomorrow morning, but I'm sure enough to urge anyone standing on the track at 8.31 to get off it sharpish.
Also, it doesn't matter if their deductions, or methods of 'knowing' are flawed. The point is that if for whatever reason, errant or otherwise, someone believes you're currently going to Hell, then it's rather unloving of them not to try convincing you to change your ways.

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LutheranChik
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So you think you have a pretty good idea of who's going to hell, but you don't want to tell me why you think they're going to hell? I'd say that that is pretty unloving, especially if you believe me to be in that number.

I am asking you to share your Unreal-Christians-Going-To-Hell criteria. It sounds like you have some. Don't be shy -- spell it out. Who's "in" and who's "out"? Inquiring minds want to know.

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RainbowKate
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quote:
Originally posted by dinghy sailor:
RainbowKate, let me get this straight, please. Are you saying that anyone who is not a universalist is a fundamentalist?

No, that's not what I'm saying. I don't consider myself a universalist (and your question implies that I do), but nor am I certain enough that my tradition is the only way to salvation that I'm willing to tell people they'd best shape up and get with the program I follow or get in line for hell.
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Dinghy Sailor

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Okay, sorry, your statement implied that you were. Tell me, then. Do you consider that your faith position is more probably one that could save you, or do you have no idea? In which case, have you looked into the matter? What are your thoughts on it?

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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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James the Confident
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quote:
Originally posted by RainbowKate:
James the Confident,*snip Sorry for any offense. *Snip

None taken. I just wanted us to be clear about what we all meant.

Unfortunately, I am going away for the weekend. I'll be very interested to see where this thread has gone!

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"How do you get all those coins?" asked Mort.
IN PAIRS
"Mort", Terry Pratchett

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LutheranChik
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I'm still waiting for the list of indicators that self-identified Christians are actually faux-Christians-going-to-hell

I'm also interested in that statement, again, about one's faith position "being one that will save you."

I thought that Christ saves us.

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RainbowKate
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quote:
Originally posted by dinghy sailor:
Okay, sorry, your statement implied that you were. Tell me, then. Do you consider that your faith position is more probably one that could save you, or do you have no idea? In which case, have you looked into the matter? What are your thoughts on it?

I consider my faith position one that will lead ME to salvation, but I can't say that means it is one that can/could/would save everyone.

Before joining the Episcopal Church I explored a number of different Christian traditions. Nothing spoke to me or put me in contact with Christ the way Eucharistic liturgy does. But I know people who find Eucharist "a nice thing" but it doesn't have the same spiritual depth to them that it does to me. I attended a Methodist church with friends for awhile and got nothing out of it, but there were people there who clearly did.

I believe God speaks to us each in different ways, which is why I find the notion of seeking to convert people of other traditions offensive. I see it as saying that the way you understand God moving in your life is inacurate. How can I say that how God speaks to you is wrong?

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Coffee is the answer

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Ricardus
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LutheranChik,

If someone honestly did believe you were damned, though, what would you have them do?

[Cross-post]

[ 09. February 2006, 22:00: Message edited by: Ricardus ]

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Dinghy Sailor

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You talk of "traditions". But what is your view when the net is widened to other religions?

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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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LutheranChik
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[yawning]

It must be a really, really long list, that list of indicators that people who say that they're Christian are actually not Real Christians.[tm] Ah, well...keep writing. I'm still waiting for it. Because if you tell me that you just know if someone is a counterfeit Christian, then you must have some methodology for determining that. I want to know what that is. It's a reasonable request. And if you don't answer me, I'm going to interpret that as your not taking this conversation very seriously.


Ricardus: I'll answer your question with a comment Martin Luther once made. He said that if someone were truly concerned about the state of another person's soul, that first person should be on his knees, weeping in prayer for that person, day and night, and befriending that person in a genuine way. Have I ever received that treatment at the hands of someone who assumes that I'm going to hell? You have got to be kidding.

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Lou Poulain
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
So let me get this straight. Suppose there's a group out there who somehow genuinely do know truthfully that you are going to hell unless you do something / believe something / whatever. You'd rather they didn't tell you?

In a word, yes.

[Fixed code.]

[ 09. February 2006, 23:33: Message edited by: RuthW ]

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RainbowKate
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quote:
Originally posted by dinghy sailor:
You talk of "traditions". But what is your view when the net is widened to other religions?

It's a view I struggle with, and I am still working out what I believe in regards to other religions. It makes me very uncomfortable to say that non-Christians are going to hell. But I also can't say that I spend a lot of time worrying about whether other people are going to heaven or hell.

As an aside, I leave for a conference tomorrow AM and so will have to drop out of the discussion for a couple days.

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Coffee is the answer

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LutheranChik
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I know I asked this before (I'm kind of getting used to not being answered), but I'm wondering what the role of the Holy Spirit is in a theology that places the burden of salvation on 1)an individual thinking, working, feeling or willing him-/herself into it; and on 2)the individuals told that they need to try, by any means necessary, to get some presumed "unsaved" individual to 1). It comes down to the question of whether salvation is something you do for yourself or something that God does for you.

I suspect that might be one of those arcane criteria for judging someone Not a Real Christian[tm]: "Rejects 'decision theology.'" Not to mention, "Dislikes our outreach methodology and isn't afraid to say so."

Well, the silver lining is, if they take Herr Professor Doktor Luther's comments to heart (even though he probably wasn't a Real Christian[tm] either), I'll have countless weeping people praying for me tonight. And I need all the help I can get. [Biased]

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duchess

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Calvinists need not answer here? [Confused]
[eta: Asking LutheranChik ]

[ 09. February 2006, 23:25: Message edited by: duchess ]

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Barnabas62
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LutheranChik, isn't the ELCA the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America? (I vaguely remember you and I agreeing on a thread a few months ago that "we wanted our word (i.e. evangelical) back" from the various hijackers around).

BTW, while we're waiting for some response to your perfectly reasonable question, I guess this might be a sort of decent scriptural test.

quote:
1 John 2:9-11 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

9Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. 10Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble. 11But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.

We'd have to widen the gender language, ("brother" and "he") and, having seen real venemous hatred expressed on one or two occasions myself, I can see the sense of the view that such people may be self-deceiving and walking in the dark. But such situations in the church are invariably - and properly - a job for the pastor first to find out wisely what is going on. Your classic modern evangelical poacher message wouldn't really do a lot of good, would it?

The thing is, I think you and I already know the answer behind this. It is this pernicious conception of the "nominal" Christian. I used to hear it from some people in my early days, never liked it, and now understand very clearly why I don't. Simply said, following certain kinds of teaching, you may "believe" or "guess" or "assume" that someone is a nominal Christian but it is no part of this species of evangelism to trust the person with that insight. Oh no! Far too insulting! But if you believe it secretly, then it conditions your behaviour. And produces precisely the sort of behaviour you have been, so accurately, criticising.

To avoid confusion, let me make my own position clear. Conversion is the work of the Holy Spirit. No human being ever converted anybody, thanks be to God. At best we're all just messengers. The wheat grows up with the weeds - that for sure is true. But God knows His own. And all human-inspired "tests" of "who's in and who's out" look silly in the light of Matthew 25 v 31ff. So within these parameters, we're all beggars sharing with other beggars where we've found bread. It's completely idiotic for any of us to think we've cornered the bread market.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Dark Knight

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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
quote:
Originally posted by GoodCatholicLad:
They can think whatever they want I don't care. It's none of their business what anyone's faith is or lack of and they should keep their mouth shut or the friendship is terminated. This is why I have a problem with fundamentalism of any faith, Christian, Muslim whatever.

So let me get this straight. Suppose there's a group out there who somehow genuinely do know truthfully that you are going to hell unless you do something / believe something / whatever. You'd rather they didn't tell you?
I have to say I find the arrogance of the use of the word "know" here to be absolutely breathtaking, and possibly goes to the heart of the issue. Faith is not about "knowing", it is about "believing". To say "I know ..." sets me up as the person with "The fact"™, who must convince everyone else who denies "The fact"™ that they are wrong. Worse, perhaps I have to force them to accept "The fact"™, what with them being so incorrect and all. But when I say "I believe ...", a measure of humility is added, which may help another to hear my point of view (or not, YMMV).

To say to someone, in the context of a friendship "I believe you are going to hell unless you..." will probably not go down very well, but may be tolerated if your friend knows you care about them. I'm guessing (I've never been dumb enough to try - thank God) that to tell someone "I know you are going to hell unless you ..." may not endear you to them. You may be stricken from their Christmas card list. Or worse [Eek!]

This is not even to mention all the fluffy universalist wannabee persons like me who do their best 80% of the time to believe no one is going to hell [Frown]

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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me
- A B Original: I C U

----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826

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Well, I'm going to bed. Perhaps someone in another time zone will answer my simple question about what criteria are used to identify Real Christians [tm] from unreal Christians.

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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com

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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267

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quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Ricardus: I'll answer your question with a comment Martin Luther once made. He said that if someone were truly concerned about the state of another person's soul, that first person should be on his knees, weeping in prayer for that person, day and night, and befriending that person in a genuine way. Have I ever received that treatment at the hands of someone who assumes that I'm going to hell? You have got to be kidding.

I've had this three times in my life. Two of the friends were people I met in middle school, and we wound up going to different high schools and thus on our seperate wasy.

However, a few years ago I befriended a hardcore Baptist on another bulletin board that was devoted to Buffy the Vampire Slayer. We talked long into the night about everything in the world, including our faith. Basically, we agreed to disagree and to hold each other as siblings in Christ. We traveled across the continent to meet each other (and other geeks from the board, too) twice. I truly cherished his friendship.

The boards slowed down and we kept in touch through the miracle of LiveJournal. I don't know what happened, though, if it was my fault or his or mutual fault, but he became more and more distant, except when I'd post things about my spiritual journey. Then he'd weigh in to say, basically, "I love you, but you're not a real Christian and you're going to Hell." I'd say, "That's nice," and leave it alone, because he was my friend.

When he started telling me that, because I used curse words, that was a sign I wasn't a true Christian, and that I was 'lost', I realised our friendship was truly over.

And it still hurts.


So, I know it can happen. And it can be good. But you need to practice CONSTANT VIGILENCE!

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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account

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Evangeline
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quote:
To say to someone, in the context of a friendship "I believe you are going to hell unless you..." will probably not go down very well, but may be tolerated if your friend knows you care about them. I'm guessing (I've never been dumb enough to try - thank God) that to tell someone "I know you are going to hell unless you ..." may not endear you to them. You may be stricken from their Christmas card list. Or worse
[Killing me]

On a certain University campus in the Eastern suburbs of Sydney, groups of Christians ambush their friends and class mates and do exactly that with monotonous regularity. It is the recommended approach to evangelism, infact I distinctly remember their stall one Oweek emblazoned with "Do you know where YOU'RE going?" they had materials (I think it was Mathias Media's Two Ways to Live) that then set out that if you weren't a Christian (by their definition) you were going to hell. There was an absolute certainty that they held the truth and others were gravely in error, believing in women's ordination for example, was unequivocal proof that you weren't a Christian.

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the giant cheeseburger
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I think the literal definition of "Christian" is somebody who is like Christ. The can of worms is now open!

To be like Christ, a person needs to be perfect! However, then we have humans ... I think we need to have Christ living in us to be a Christian, like Paul says in Gal 2:20-21. To do this, we need to first be crucified with him. This is so we can die a death deserved for our sins and be resurrected with Christ living in us.

The evidence that Christ is living in a person will be that they will act like it. You should notice a difference in the way a Christian acts compared to a non-Christian.

For example, their reverence (i.e. worship) towards God. This does not depend on ritual things like physically bowing every time you hear the name of Jesus, confessing to another human or going through the motions of a liturgical mass. That is just a superficial religion, not a real relationship with God.

Genuine reverence towards God means doing what He says - i.e. obey the Word of God. That means showing compassion and love to all others, including those who don't believe what you do. That means Christians shouldn't spend more time in Church to try and be more devout, they should be out on the streets pouring out compassion to those who would otherwise be ignored.

Christians should also not restrict any of their rites to other Christians who have differences in views. This goes plainly against the command to "love one another."

This leads us back to the original point of this thread - the "sinfulness" of the RC church. I believe the closed mass of the RC church is distinctly opposed to the second greatest commandment, i.e. on this basis = sinful. It is on this basis (and the contention that belief in Jesus' sacrifice is not enough to be saved) that many Christians with good intentions preach to RCs.

This is right - and wrong. While not mutually exclusive, Roman Catholicism does not define Christianity as Christianity cannot be defined by an institution. Therefore I belive it is possible to be a RC devoted to their religion but not a Christian.

While this is most noticable with the RC church, it can apply to any church/group which sets up an organised religion. However, the great thing is that God can work in people despite the failings of the institutional church. Therefore while the institution of Roman Catholicism may be greatly errant and sinful, so are all other organised churches to a degree. Despite this, God can minister to others no matter what the circumstances, so Christians should only preach to other people (Christians, RCs, protestants, atheists etc. - anybody) if led by the Holy Spirit, which is the only infallible guide to spiritual matters.


Finally, just to clarify my view on things raised since I started this post (Firefox tabs are great!) - I believe that there are "essentials" to the Christian faith and other not so essential things as well. Things such as female leaders etc. don't matter as much as the important stuff, which is the problem with fundamentalists - they focus on the wrong areas. You cannot say to somebody that because they are an RC that they will go to hell. I must admit I sometimes feel tempted to say that to the histerical Catholic woman who preaches at people at Adelaide Railway Station - she is a great advertisement of why not to be a RC.

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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?

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James the Confident
Ship's Pastor
# 9678

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quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
believing in women's ordination for example, was unequivocal proof that you weren't a Christian. [/QB]

Oh damn, and here was I thinking I was bound for heaven [Two face]

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"How do you get all those coins?" asked Mort.
IN PAIRS
"Mort", Terry Pratchett

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Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

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quote:
Posted by the_giant_cheeseburger:
<snip>This leads us back to the original point of this thread - the "sinfulness" of the RC church. I believe the closed mass of the RC church is distinctly opposed to the second greatest commandment, i.e. on this basis = sinful. It is on this basis (and the contention that belief in Jesus' sacrifice is not enough to be saved) that many Christians with good intentions preach to RCs. <snip>

I don't think I am following your logic. Shouldn't this lead people to petition the Catholic Chruch to practice an open communion, rather than leading them to preach to RCS to try and "save" them?

This makes more sense:
quote:
the contention that belief in Jesus' sacrifice is not enough to be saved
But I don't know where this contention came from. Who is saying this?

--------------------
So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me
- A B Original: I C U

----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
quote:
the contention that belief in Jesus' sacrifice is not enough to be saved
But I don't know where this contention came from. Who is saying this?
St Paul?

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256

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Yes, we should all be communicating the Gospel. But "communicate" here means a one way communication, based on one method of interpeting the Bible, literally, without context and without Tradition. "You don't understand the Bible our way, so you are wrong" - from a Catholic perspective, it just isn't persuasive.

As IngoB naughtily suggested, to make it work you would have to engage with what Catholics actually believe. I think this would be instructive - there is nothing like knowing the enem...er, target audience. Come back to Rome - or at least recognise that we are saved too. (Some sort of recognition of the Catholic parish 50 metres up the road from you might be a start.)

The other aspect of "communicate the Gospel to Roman Catholics" that bothers me is that reading the Word is only one way of spreading the Gospel to others. The real trick is do so without words through living its moral values, as St Francis of Assisi said.("Preach the Gospel daily. If necessary use words".)

The Real Christians, I suggest, are those who follow the two Great Commandments, who love God unreservedly and who love their neighbour as themselves and thus express their love of God and deepen their relationship with God. Benedict XVI put it rather better at paragraphs 9 to 18 than I just have.

Love of God and of neighbour carries responsibilities with it:
quote:
The entire activity of the Church is an expression of a love that seeks the integral good of man: it seeks his evangelization through Word and Sacrament, an undertaking that is often heroic in the way it is acted out in history; and it seeks to promote man in the various arenas of life and human activity. Love is therefore the service that the Church carries out in order to attend constantly to man's sufferings and his needs, including material needs.
That reference to "evangelisation [of man] by Word and Sacrament" is rather wider than the concept "communicate the Gospel to Roman Catholics", as if it were something we had never heard of before or hadn't understood.

Dialogue is just great.

Telling us about the Gospel is just great. Let us tell you about the Gospel too.

Assuming that we need to have our views corrected to an evanglical focus, as opposed to our experience of the love of God and the radical encounter with Jesus Christ Pope Benedict talks of - well, that's just missing the point.

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Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)

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Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256

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quote:
Originally posted by the_giant_cheeseburger:

This is right - and wrong. While not mutually exclusive, Roman Catholicism does not define Christianity as Christianity cannot be defined by an institution. Therefore I belive it is possible to be a RC devoted to their religion but not a Christian.

We believe that we are on the optimum path to salvation, as it were. Which is not to say that God won't save non-Catholics nor that the Holy Spirit isn't also active in other denominations or religions. However, a person "devoted to their religion" to the exclusion of the Christian values taught by the Catholic Church and expressed in the Magisterium would not be a Christian and would not be a Catholic, no matter what they professed.

There's a long thread in Dead Horses on the subject of Eastern/Roman table fellowship. It is a matter of considerable regret for many Catholics that we aren't in communion with other denominations for a variety of doctrinal reasons including the theology of the Sacraments, to name just one. We will not rest until we are in communion with the rest of you. We are trying hard. After all, we are literally commanded to be one Church by God.

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Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)

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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848

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quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
Yes, we should all be communicating the Gospel. But "communicate" here means a one way communication, based on one method of interpeting the Bible, literally, without context and without Tradition. "You don't understand the Bible our way, so you are wrong" - from a Catholic perspective, it just isn't persuasive.

As IngoB naughtily suggested, to make it work you would have to engage with what Catholics actually believe. I think this would be instructive - there is nothing like knowing the enem...er, target audience. Come back to Rome - or at least recognise that we are saved too. (Some sort of recognition of the Catholic parish 50 metres up the road from you might be a start.)

The other aspect of "communicate the Gospel to Roman Catholics" that bothers me is that reading the Word is only one way of spreading the Gospel to others. The real trick is do so without words through living its moral values, as St Francis of Assisi said.("Preach the Gospel daily. If necessary use words".)

The Real Christians, I suggest, are those who follow the two Great Commandments, who love God unreservedly and who love their neighbour as themselves and thus express their love of God and deepen their relationship with God. Benedict XVI put it rather better at paragraphs 9 to 18 than I just have.

Love of God and of neighbour carries responsibilities with it:
quote:
The entire activity of the Church is an expression of a love that seeks the integral good of man: it seeks his evangelization through Word and Sacrament, an undertaking that is often heroic in the way it is acted out in history; and it seeks to promote man in the various arenas of life and human activity. Love is therefore the service that the Church carries out in order to attend constantly to man's sufferings and his needs, including material needs.
That reference to "evangelisation [of man] by Word and Sacrament" is rather wider than the concept "communicate the Gospel to Roman Catholics", as if it were something we had never heard of before or hadn't understood.

Dialogue is just great.

Telling us about the Gospel is just great. Let us tell you about the Gospel too.

Assuming that we need to have our views corrected to an evanglical focus, as opposed to our experience of the love of God and the radical encounter with Jesus Christ Pope Benedict talks of - well, that's just missing the point.

Hear, hear. Unreserved applause from this Anglican.
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

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Sorry to jump back 68 posts or so (but I was at a swimming carnival at the local Catholic school, where my son attends: I was time keeping but I got in a few opportunities to share the gospel with the godless gathered)
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
On the other hand, perhaps Gordy is right. Om another thread somewhere I suggested that the two Archbishops of Sydney stand together in the breach fighting post-modernity, each believing the other is not truly a christian. The Sydney machinery became very upset at the suggestion.

So, gordy, let's have Matthias' wee book. And get Pell to launch it. As a sign of your commitment to the unity of the Body of Christ.

Zappa may be joking (I don't know), but is there any hope for the ecumenical venture, Gordon? Or are the "significant issues" you mention too big an issue for MM type evangelicalism for RCs to be recognised as "Christians".

I guess I am asking, does the idea that you have to "communicate the gospel to Roman Catholics" imply to you that Catholic faith must be altered in order for it to fit into "the Gospel"?
<snip>
I was deadly serious about asking Sydney's RC Archbishop Pell to launch the book.

If Gordy is serious and all MathiasMedia are doing is, in an exercise of good faith, challenging their RC brothers and sisters to dig deeper into their encounter with Christ, their scriptures (including the deutero-canonicals!), their liturgies ( lex orandi lex credendi and all that) and their tradition, then, you bewdy, go for it. I believe even Billy Graham encouraged Catholics touched by God at his rallies to return to their churches and continue their God-breathed journey.

But if Gordy and his Matthias mates are suggesting that Catholics are misled, wrong or otherwise f*cked in their relationship with the risen lord, then I suggest their sphincters should prepare for insertion of their own phylacteries with considerable force.

And if they are suggesting that the Roman Catholic understanding for example of the eucharist/mass/Lord’s Supper/call-it-what-you-will is somehow deficient and counter-gospel, counter-salvation, then they need to get their heads out of their respective colons and read the entire history of anamnesis (Greek word for “memorial”) and epiclesis (Greek word for “calling down”) and the twists and turns, errors and corrections that have informed all shades of Christianity in the years since Jesus and his refractory mates gathered in an upper room in the City of Peace.

--------------------
shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

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Niënna

Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652

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And can I just add how inspired I was regarding the recent Pope's first encyclical. It was very wonderful and encouraging to hear him speak about love (and how true it is that we often commodify it) and how important it is to pursue social justice and emmulate Christ. Rock on, RC!

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[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land

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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

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But is he a Christian™ [Biased]

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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
But is he a Christian™ [Biased]

[Killing me] LC's question just isn't going to go away any time soon!

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
quantpole
Shipmate
# 8401

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OK, I'll have a go at a hypothetical situation.

I have a friend who identifies as C of E, he goes to church at christmas and maybe easter. After going to a carol service we get talking a bit, and I ask him what he thinks being a Christian is all about. He replies that it's about being a good person, after all he's 'better' than most people he knows so he'll be alright when he dies.

At this point is it ok for me to say that being a christian is more than just being 'good'? Or do I just nod away and not say anything?

(I'd like to place a few caveats on this situation; I'm not in this friendship to try and get another 'notch', I listen to what he is saying and don't just bash out my message, I try to be humble and not act like I have the One True Way™)

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IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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All this is very high-minded and educational, but frankly, I think the most important piece of information is simply missing: what is Gordon actually up to?

I have met so far only one fundamentalist in Melbourne who tried to force-save me. He was a bit on the back foot from the beginning, because I was actually reading the bible when he approached me... But anyway, many Whores of Babylon later I told him that I'm entirely content to consciously persist in my religious illusions and delusions. That sort of stumped him. So now we just exchange these entirely weird short greetings when we meet on the tram, e.g., "Are you still happy to persist in illusion?" "Sure am." "OK then." [Smile]

Now, that guy always reminds me of Nietzsche's saying "You will have to look more redeemed if I am to believe in your redeemer." Problem is: from what I've seen here Gordon seems like a decent chap, quite probably a good deal "holier" than me, and he even has some brains. Now, clearly he has latched onto some rather unfortunate Calvinistic doctrines. But as far as I can tell he does seem to genuinely care about other peole, again quite probably a good deal more than I do.

My point is: the discussion so far basically works on the assumption that Gordon is just like that fundamentalist nutcase I sometimes meet on the tram. Well, I don't think that that is quite true. So I suggest we give Gordon the benefit of the doubt and stop projecting the entire outrage at fundamentalists in general and Sydney evAnglicans in particular onto Gordon...

[ 10. February 2006, 09:00: Message edited by: IngoB ]

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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IngoB

RuthW said something like that earlier when she changed the thread title and since then I don't think the discussion has been "Gordon-focussed". Maybe there have been a few asides. BTW, from what happens on the these boards, I have no problem accepting your assessment of him.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Well, it is an odd world view really. The only possible justification for preaching to Catholics (or Lutherans, or Salvationists, or conevo Australian Catholics) with a view to conversion is if you honestly believe that the folks in those communions - or associated with those communions - won't encounter God where they are.

Hang about here - what do you mean by "associated with those communions"?

There are plenty of people who are culturally Catholic who would call thesmelves Catholics, but rarely go near anywhere they might bump into the teachings of the church, might have very little idea what those teachings are, and have no notion of what I'm sure Gordon would call "The Gospel"

What should Gordon do about them if he encoutners them on his evangelicstic rounds? Tell them to go to Mass regularly and talk to their priest?

The same applies to Protestant denominations of course but its pretty much in decline now - maybe its still important in the USA but here (& I suspect in Australia) there are few remaining cultural Anglicans or Methodists or Baptists or whatever.

Most of this thread hasn't really been objections to evangelising catholics, its been objections to evangelising at all. Forget about going to hell or whatever - if you think that Christianity is true, and that its better to be a Christian than not, how can you object to evanglism?

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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ken

Fair point. The use of the phrase "associated with" was meant to include such things as family association, even though the person concerned was not necessarily a member or a regular worshipper there. It was vague and I hadn't thought it through fully.

The issue is not that evangelism isn't proper. Woe to me if I do not do it. The issue is whether there can be improper evangelism. Can it be proper if it assumes non-Chistianity in denominations with different visions, outlooks and doctrines.

Maybe you can have a go at answering LutheranChik's question? This one

quote:
Okay, Custard, I'll bite: How is it that you can know that someone else who also identifies as a Christian is actually going to hell? What are your criteria for identifying Christian poseurs ?
I faithshare a lot. And in talking with folks who do not self-identify as Christians, that is always evangelism - in fact how can it be otherwise? But as LutheranChik has pointed out, the situation is different if they do self-identify as Christians. There is a difference between those of us (me included) who are very happy to take folks' self-identification at face value, even if their outlook and vision is different to mine, and those whose antennae start twitching if the theology seems off beam. I dont judge Another's servant. But I'm very happy to hear their story and, if they are interested, let them know something of mine. I suppose in the process, some of my faithsharing might turn out to be evangelising, but that is not my intention and i may never know it. How can it be my intention, if I take them at face value?

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Dinghy Sailor

Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507

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One thing I've just thought of: Why are people here insisting on taking others at face value, specifically in the area of their faith? We rarely take people at face value at any other time. People are complex things, with lots of drives, feelings and emotions, and saying that it's disrespectful of someone not to believe that they're a good Catholic just because they self identify so, is like saying it's disrespectful to disbelieve the grubby-lipped 6 year old when he says he never went anywhere near the cookie jar.

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Forget about going to hell or whatever - if you think that Christianity is true, and that its better to be a Christian than not, how can you object to evanglism?

You'll probably get a response that "Well Christianity is better for me, and I'm very glad that I'm a Christian, but there are different roads that different people can walk to find fulfillment." I disagree with that, by the way.

[ 10. February 2006, 13:07: Message edited by: dinghy sailor ]

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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

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(I'm going to keep on doing this)

OK dinghy sailor. Then you can also answer LutheranChik's question. By what criteria do you identify that self-identifying Christians are in fact poseurs? Or is this a theoretical not-taking at face value?

Of course I accept your point that when it comes to people, things are not always what they seem. It's just wrong to assume you know that about anyone initially - you need to get to know them first. So far as I'm aware, nobody here is saying its wrong to share our faith with folks of different vision and outlook, or poseurs, or sheep or goats or whatever. That's just one to one life with friends and acquaintances - provided we ensure they get at least equal time. Its the categorising which is odd really. Why is it so important to know which self-identifier is a sheep and which a goat? My bible tells me that the answer to that question is known ultimately to God. Don't guess when you don't have to.

There really is a major difference between straightforward faithsharing and believing, ab initio, that the self-identified need to be evangelised. If indeed they do, then let them decide that, as the Holy Spirit leads and guides. We're messengers of love and hope and goodwill. Not only with our lips but with our lives. What the heck is so difficult about that?

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged



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