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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Faith and salvation -- let's cut to the chase :)
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strathclydezero
# 180
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Sort of like a theological "keep your head down and get on with it"?
Normally, if you dig deep enough you can find some reason for most meaningless dogma. In this case the dogma has probably moved so far from the original meaning through changes in the meaning of 'love' and 'god' that it is a totally different animal to how it was first intended.
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All religions will pass, but this will remain:
simply sitting in a chair and looking in the distance.
V V Rozanov
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
In this case the dogma has probably moved so far from the original meaning through changes in the meaning of 'love' and 'god' that it is a totally different animal to how it was first intended.
Probably "obey". Most people who tell me to "love God" tend to mean I should do whatever they think He's telling me to do...
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Hail Gallaxhar
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Teapot
Shipmate
# 10837
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
In this case the dogma has probably moved so far from the original meaning through changes in the meaning of 'love' and 'god' that it is a totally different animal to how it was first intended.
Probably "obey". Most people who tell me to "love God" tend to mean I should do whatever they think He's telling me to do...
Or it could simply mean "hold as precious" and thus "be in accord with what he teaches"
Or indeed it could be the "standard question" as in:
Person A: "Do you love God?"
Person B: "Yup"
Person A: "Ok you have passed the idiot test and not said 'no' in a highly religious society ![[Biased]](wink.gif) now lets get to the nitty gritty....do you love your neighbour?"
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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No I am NOT short and stout! But I will be happy to accept one of each at a pub :)
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strathclydezero
# 180
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teapot:
Or it could simply mean "hold as precious" and thus "be in accord with what he teaches"
In the post enlightenment world I don't think you can equate "believing in" with "holding as precious". We no longer live in a highly religious society, so it's time for a reinterpretation.
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All religions will pass, but this will remain:
simply sitting in a chair and looking in the distance.
V V Rozanov
Posts: 3276 | From: The Near East | Registered: May 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bester:
I have an atheist friend who strongly agrees with the majority of Jesus' moral teachings and is considerably better than many Christians at living by them (myself included) but cannot accept that there is a God. Does he love God through loving God's ways?
This is always the hard question.
One answer, as I said, is that these things are not black-and-white or all-or-nothing. To the extent that your friend, or any of us, has a belief and love in our hearts that is in accord with the actual state of affairs, to that extent we will be "in harmony with the universe" and therefore be in a heavenly state of being. Words, names, ideas, and concepts are all necessarily vague representations of the underlying reality that determines how things actually work.
Another answer is to compare it with a parallel but purely natural situation. Suppose that I do not believe in science, do not accept scientific information, and have my own personal explanations for how the world works. I think that trees cause the wind by shaking their leaves and that evil spirits cause sickness. At the same time, I live a life that conforms to the ordinary practices of society and am just as healthy and productive as anyone else.
Would this be OK?
I would guess that this might work fine for any particular person, but that if society as a whole operated on these principles we would be in trouble. Even the individual who got along just fine with these beliefs might be in trouble in certain circumstances, such as if the welfare of others depended on his judgment.
I guess this parallel isn't quite parallel, since scientific beliefs can be demonstrated much more persuasively and concretely than the belief in God. Still, the principle is the same, because the "why" of life, and its epistemological framework, eventually have an impact on what actually happens.
So I think that in the long run it is necessary to have a belief in God to be saved, just as it is necessary in the long run for people to accept and apply the scientific method for things to run smoothly in this world.
In a sense a person does love God through loving God's ways. The question is whether it is really possible in the long run to sustain a love for the ways while rejecting their source and substance. Eventually you would expect that something would have to give. Either the love of the ways would lead to an understanding and love of their source and substance, or vice versa.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Teapot
Shipmate
# 10837
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
In the post enlightenment world I don't think you can equate "believing in" with "holding as precious". We no longer live in a highly religious society, so it's time for a reinterpretation.
Well....christians believe in the devil (discuss ) but that does not mean they love him
Loving implies in many ways "intimately knowing" someone....
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No I am NOT short and stout! But I will be happy to accept one of each at a pub :)
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strathclydezero
# 180
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teapot:
Loving implies in many ways "intimately knowing" someone....
Love of God must equate to arrogance in the Christian sense then.
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All religions will pass, but this will remain:
simply sitting in a chair and looking in the distance.
V V Rozanov
Posts: 3276 | From: The Near East | Registered: May 2001
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Teapot
Shipmate
# 10837
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
quote:
Originally posted by Teapot:
Loving implies in many ways "intimately knowing" someone....
Love of God must equate to arrogance in the Christian sense then.
Why?
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No I am NOT short and stout! But I will be happy to accept one of each at a pub :)
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strathclydezero
# 180
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teapot:
quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
quote:
Originally posted by Teapot:
Loving implies in many ways "intimately knowing" someone....
Love of God must equate to arrogance in the Christian sense then.
Why?
How can anyone "intimately know" a deity?
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All religions will pass, but this will remain:
simply sitting in a chair and looking in the distance.
V V Rozanov
Posts: 3276 | From: The Near East | Registered: May 2001
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Teapot
Shipmate
# 10837
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
How can anyone "intimately know" a deity?
Erm, its called mysticism ![[Confused]](confused.gif) Like with St John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, Catherine of Sienna, Julian of Norwich......not to mention pre-fall adam and eve who used to share garden promenades apparently
[ 02. February 2006, 14:11: Message edited by: Teapot ]
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No I am NOT short and stout! But I will be happy to accept one of each at a pub :)
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strathclydezero
# 180
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teapot:
quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
How can anyone "intimately know" a deity?
Erm, its called mysticism Like with St John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, Catherine of Sienna, Julian of Norwich......not to mention pre-fall adam and eve who used to share garden promenades apparently
Exactly - arrogance. You have to believe that the mystics were onto something in order to see their way of thinking as intimate.
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All religions will pass, but this will remain:
simply sitting in a chair and looking in the distance.
V V Rozanov
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Teapot
Shipmate
# 10837
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
Exactly - arrogance. You have to believe that the mystics were onto something in order to see their way of thinking as intimate.
Not sure what you mean here....
And are you suggesting mysticism is arrogant because it experiences the divine "up close and personal"?!
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No I am NOT short and stout! But I will be happy to accept one of each at a pub :)
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
quote:
Originally posted by Teapot:
quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
quote:
Originally posted by Teapot:
Loving implies in many ways "intimately knowing" someone....
Love of God must equate to arrogance in the Christian sense then.
Why?
How can anyone "intimately know" a deity?
This is kind of a weird exchange. SCZ I'm not sure where you are coming from. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
"Intimately knowing" does not have the connotation of "perfect knowledge of", as I understand it.
The scenario I would imagine is of someone reflecting on their life, thinking that they see and understand how God has led them and helped them, and feeling love and gratitude. Another scenario would be someone having a vision in their mind of how God loves humanity and is working to save all people, and loving Him because of that "intimate understanding." There are lots of scenarios that might come to mind.
This is not mysticism, nor is it in any way arrogant. It is just loving in the usual sense.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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strathclydezero
# 180
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teapot:
And are you suggesting mysticism is arrogant because it experiences the divine "up close and personal"?!
Not at all. Mysticism is a very personal thing, and is not very suited to broad claims of truth. The arrogance I spoke of was that of assuming you can know god in a way which falsifies others experiences of god. You seemed to imply that love of god stemmed from intimately experiencing him/it, which seems to leave a lot of christians bereft of loving god.
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All religions will pass, but this will remain:
simply sitting in a chair and looking in the distance.
V V Rozanov
Posts: 3276 | From: The Near East | Registered: May 2001
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Teapot
Shipmate
# 10837
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
quote:
Originally posted by Teapot:
And are you suggesting mysticism is arrogant because it experiences the divine "up close and personal"?!
Not at all. Mysticism is a very personal thing, and is not very suited to broad claims of truth. The arrogance I spoke of was that of assuming you can know god in a way which falsifies others experiences of god. You seemed to imply that love of god stemmed from intimately experiencing him/it, which seems to leave a lot of christians bereft of loving god.
What other ways are there to love, other than in "intimate knowing"? Frequently "intimate knowledge" is used as a cover term for all manner of "loving"....both sexual and otherwise.
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No I am NOT short and stout! But I will be happy to accept one of each at a pub :)
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strathclydezero
# 180
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Posted
I already suggested a possible alternative meaning.
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All religions will pass, but this will remain:
simply sitting in a chair and looking in the distance.
V V Rozanov
Posts: 3276 | From: The Near East | Registered: May 2001
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Teapot
Shipmate
# 10837
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
I already suggested a possible alternative meaning.
Do you mean "believing in"? Erm, how is that Love?
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No I am NOT short and stout! But I will be happy to accept one of each at a pub :)
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strathclydezero
# 180
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Posted
eh?
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All religions will pass, but this will remain:
simply sitting in a chair and looking in the distance.
V V Rozanov
Posts: 3276 | From: The Near East | Registered: May 2001
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Teapot
Shipmate
# 10837
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
eh?
I was trying to find your alternative meaning....if I did not find it could you please say what it is?
[ 02. February 2006, 15:13: Message edited by: Teapot ]
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No I am NOT short and stout! But I will be happy to accept one of each at a pub :)
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strathclydezero
# 180
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It's the "love God" bit I have trouble with.
I take the "loving God" to imply that you're a happier person if you accept your lot in life, rather than always striving to get ahead.
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All religions will pass, but this will remain:
simply sitting in a chair and looking in the distance.
V V Rozanov
Posts: 3276 | From: The Near East | Registered: May 2001
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Teapot
Shipmate
# 10837
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It's the "love God" bit I have trouble with.
I take the "loving God" to imply that you're a happier person if you accept your lot in life, rather than always striving to get ahead.
Aha! Sorry
Could you say how you think that is "loving"?
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No I am NOT short and stout! But I will be happy to accept one of each at a pub :)
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strathclydezero
# 180
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teapot:
Could you say how you think that is "loving"?
In order to love someone you sometimes have to forget about the things about them which annoy you. The same might apply to god, however you define god.
Personally, god is not my neighbour. And he/it is does not have a quasi-human character.
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All religions will pass, but this will remain:
simply sitting in a chair and looking in the distance.
V V Rozanov
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Teapot
Shipmate
# 10837
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
quote:
Originally posted by Teapot:
Could you say how you think that is "loving"?
In order to love someone you sometimes have to forget about the things about them which annoy you. The same might apply to god, however you define god.
Personally, god is not my neighbour. And he/it is does not have a quasi-human character.
Dont you think loving requires embracing rather that tollerating?
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No I am NOT short and stout! But I will be happy to accept one of each at a pub :)
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strathclydezero
# 180
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teapot:
Dont you think loving requires embracing rather that tollerating?
In the case of god - what the hell is someone supposed to embrace?
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All religions will pass, but this will remain:
simply sitting in a chair and looking in the distance.
V V Rozanov
Posts: 3276 | From: The Near East | Registered: May 2001
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Teapot
Shipmate
# 10837
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
quote:
Originally posted by Teapot:
Dont you think loving requires embracing rather that tollerating?
In the case of god - what the hell is someone supposed to embrace?
Well, how do you embrace:
Liberty
Hope
A better way of living
You dont need to use your arms, explicitly.
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No I am NOT short and stout! But I will be happy to accept one of each at a pub :)
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strathclydezero
# 180
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Posted
You seem to be talking about embracing human emotion. So god is simply a human emotion to you?
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All religions will pass, but this will remain:
simply sitting in a chair and looking in the distance.
V V Rozanov
Posts: 3276 | From: The Near East | Registered: May 2001
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Teapot
Shipmate
# 10837
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
You seem to be talking about embracing human emotion. So god is simply a human emotion to you?
Lol no. I am giving examples of embracing a non-physical something
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No I am NOT short and stout! But I will be happy to accept one of each at a pub :)
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strathclydezero
# 180
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teapot:
quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
You seem to be talking about embracing human emotion. So god is simply a human emotion to you?
Lol no. I am giving examples of embracing a non-physical something
OK - so let me ask again. In the case of god what the hell are you supposed to embrace?
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All religions will pass, but this will remain:
simply sitting in a chair and looking in the distance.
V V Rozanov
Posts: 3276 | From: The Near East | Registered: May 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
You two! ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Teapot
Shipmate
# 10837
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
quote:
Originally posted by Teapot:
quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
You seem to be talking about embracing human emotion. So god is simply a human emotion to you?
Lol no. I am giving examples of embracing a non-physical something
OK - so let me ask again. In the case of god what the hell are you supposed to embrace?
Godself. Which is probably an answer that leaves you all ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif) ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
I cant make you understand it by reason, you need to experience it through epiphany (which cannot be brought about by act of will, it can only be "allowed" to happen by yourself)
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No I am NOT short and stout! But I will be happy to accept one of each at a pub :)
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strathclydezero
# 180
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teapot:
I cant make you understand it by reason, you need to experience it through epiphany (which cannot be brought about by act of will, it can only be "allowed" to happen by yourself)
So ...
Why then does Jesus suggest that we 'love God'? Surely he should be saying that we should 'love God if we've experienced epiphany'? In fact, I'd expect someone like Jesus to suggest how we might go about a compromise if we never come to experience epiphany. Strangely that condition doesn't seem to feature. Any idea why?
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All religions will pass, but this will remain:
simply sitting in a chair and looking in the distance.
V V Rozanov
Posts: 3276 | From: The Near East | Registered: May 2001
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Teapot
Shipmate
# 10837
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
Why then does Jesus suggest that we 'love God'? Surely he should be saying that we should 'love God if we've experienced epiphany'? In fact, I'd expect someone like Jesus to suggest how we might go about a compromise if we never come to experience epiphany. Strangely that condition doesn't seem to feature. Any idea why?
Well the instruction tells us what we need to do...perhaps how we do it is the rest of the whole book?
Actually, instructions for knowing God happen pretty early on in the bible
"Be still and know that I am God" (my emphasis added)
In order to love god we must open up to epiphany. We cant make it happen, we must allow him in. Invite him in and open the door, but not grab him by the arm and pull ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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No I am NOT short and stout! But I will be happy to accept one of each at a pub :)
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strathclydezero
# 180
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Posted
Ah yes, how could I forget that bible = instruction book.
I'm guessing you also believe in 2 Timothy 3:16?
Loving something which there is not just no empirical evidence for, and no convincing individual personal experience of, but also no coherent personal experiences of amongst even those who give their lives to it is near impossible.
But then, I'm guessing that loving god is pretty easy for someone who loves George Bush.
[ 02. February 2006, 16:44: Message edited by: strathclydezero ]
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All religions will pass, but this will remain:
simply sitting in a chair and looking in the distance.
V V Rozanov
Posts: 3276 | From: The Near East | Registered: May 2001
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Teapot
Shipmate
# 10837
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
Loving something which there is not just no empirical evidence for, and no convincing individual personal experience of, but also no coherent personal experiences of amongst even those who give their lives to it is near impossible.
But then, I'm guessing that loving god is pretty easy for someone who loves George Bush.
I dont need evidence that I can in return show you, in order to believe in and love god. Personal experience is sufficient to the task for me and that is not transferable to you so I will not try
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No I am NOT short and stout! But I will be happy to accept one of each at a pub :)
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strathclydezero
# 180
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Posted
Excellent. So, Jesus says I should love god. The proper christian tells me that in order to do that I have to experience 'epiphany', yet that there is no way we can experience that through choice. Therefore, either Jesus is being unreasonable in his expectations, or the writings of christianity present a strange and twisted cultish pact.
Or perhaps, just perhaps, the proper christian is wrong.
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All religions will pass, but this will remain:
simply sitting in a chair and looking in the distance.
V V Rozanov
Posts: 3276 | From: The Near East | Registered: May 2001
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Teapot
Shipmate
# 10837
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
Excellent. So, Jesus says I should love god. The proper christian tells me that in order to do that I have to experience 'epiphany', yet that there is no way we can experience that through choice. Therefore, either Jesus is being unreasonable in his expectations, or the writings of christianity present a strange and twisted cultish pact.
Or perhaps, just perhaps, the proper christian is wrong.
Epiphany happens when we stop trying to do stuff....its a gift waiting for us to accept not something that happens on the whim of Jesus.
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No I am NOT short and stout! But I will be happy to accept one of each at a pub :)
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strathclydezero
# 180
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teapot:
Epiphany happens when we stop trying to do stuff....its a gift waiting for us to accept not something that happens on the whim of Jesus.
quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
I take the "loving God" to imply that you're a happier person if you accept your lot in life, rather than always striving to get ahead.
Really - what's the difference?
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All religions will pass, but this will remain:
simply sitting in a chair and looking in the distance.
V V Rozanov
Posts: 3276 | From: The Near East | Registered: May 2001
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Teapot
Shipmate
# 10837
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
quote:
Originally posted by Teapot:
Epiphany happens when we stop trying to do stuff....its a gift waiting for us to accept not something that happens on the whim of Jesus.
quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
I take the "loving God" to imply that you're a happier person if you accept your lot in life, rather than always striving to get ahead.
Really - what's the difference?
I'm saying you love god when you know him, as a result of epiphany you allow to happen. You are saying perhaps that the allowing itself is "loving".
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No I am NOT short and stout! But I will be happy to accept one of each at a pub :)
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Niënna
Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
In this case the dogma has probably moved so far from the original meaning through changes in the meaning of 'love' and 'god' that it is a totally different animal to how it was first intended.
Probably "obey". Most people who tell me to "love God" tend to mean I should do whatever they think He's telling me to do...
I'm not sure why it is important about what these other people think.
I mean yes -- obeying God is important but who's to say these other people who are telling what they think God's wants for you are right
We are all fools - I mean that include everything I post ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) . I think the really smart people know how little they know...
What do you think?
[ 02. February 2006, 21:17: Message edited by: Joyfulsoul ]
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Niënna
Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
quote:
Originally posted by Teapot:
Loving implies in many ways "intimately knowing" someone....
Love of God must equate to arrogance in the Christian sense then.
Heh. I so agree with you. I often want to say to those who claim they know God but are extremely judgemental and demanding that are Right™ with a Capital R, "So, if you say you know God sososo well than why you are still so f*cked up?"
But I don't say that because I'm a good little christian ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif) . Because I've noticed that its not the loud and noisy ones who are bragging how they are just sooosososoos close to God but it is usually the most kind and patient and loving and humble that actually have a better grasp of who God is.
For goodness' sake, I think if you really catch a glimpse of who God is than you begin to realise how pathetic and pitiable your idea or knowledge of God was before. At least, that's been my experience.
quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
Excellent. So, Jesus says I should love god. The proper christian tells me that in order to do that I have to experience 'epiphany', yet that there is no way we can experience that through choice. Therefore, either Jesus is being unreasonable in his expectations, or the writings of christianity present a strange and twisted cultish pact.
Or perhaps, just perhaps, the proper christian is wrong.
Spot on.
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[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land
Posts: 2298 | From: Purgatory | Registered: Jun 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Probably "obey". Most people who tell me to "love God" tend to mean I should do whatever they think He's telling me to do...
I'm not sure why it is important about what these other people think.
Because for all I know they might be right. I mean, they seem so damn sure about it. And in the absence of any personal revelations from God, all I can do is go along with them or hope they're wrong...
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Niënna
Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652
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Posted
![[Eek!]](eek.gif) I'm impressed.
You have more faith in what other people believe than I do.
Posts: 2298 | From: Purgatory | Registered: Jun 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
It's just a manifestation of my own deep-rooted uncertainty. Pay it no mind
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Niënna
Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652
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Posted
I'm sorry, Marvin the Martian, - I really don't want to disagree with these people whose opinions who obviously very important to you. But I have to because it bugs me because it was the same stuff that was stuffed down my throat when I went to sunday school as a child and mislearned a lot about God - about his nature and his desires.
It may sound contradictary to other things I have posted, but what the hell, I'm going to say this anyways.
God doesn't want obedience.
If all God wanted was obedience he would have made us robots (no offense meant to any robots who are reading or posting on SOF) who would respond and immediately obey with, "how high?" when God says "jump."
Instead, God created synthesized us with flesh and spirit and placed an imago dei (image of God) and gave us a grand capacity for many things - such as the ability to engage with love, hope, and transformation.
He gave us choice to not merely just follow our primal animal urges (which are necessary and part of the design for biological species) but learn how to mediate our desires in our to live our lives to the fullest - for the sake of harmony and true enjoyment.
I think when I was little I was taught that God wanted us to be "good obedient children" - but that is far, far away from the reality of the nature and desire of God.
I'm going to make an anlogy because us human beings are fundamentally exist in relation to one another.
I think that God isn't just about doing all the "right" things - because if I were in a relationship and just did all the "right" things but never engaged my heart or my soul or my own desires - then that would be a pretty pathetic situation. So the heart of God is not about immediate compliant obedience but rather a little more meaningful than that.
I mean we all put each other into labels and boxes and maybe it is inevitable or maybe we can grow out of it but I think we put people into frameworks so that we can make sense of the world...but the bad thing about that is that we also often do that to God as well - as if he were some country, simple hick. I think it is easy to forget that God is f*cking uncontainable.
I think God doesn't want docile unthinking obedience - he is far too lovely for that. God's not about having robotic servants - after all he made us human beings - so maybe, instead, God wants something more than obedience - he wants our hearts.
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[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land
Posts: 2298 | From: Purgatory | Registered: Jun 2003
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Wolfgang
Shipmate
# 10809
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:
God doesn't want obedience.
Really?
That God wants us to be obedient to his commands in no way negates the idea that he did not create us like robots. In fact, we were created "for obedience to Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:2). This does not mean that God chooses our actions and dictates our life as if programming a machine, but it does mean that he knows what's best for us. Obedience is an active choice on our part to submit to the will of God.
Posts: 121 | From: The North | Registered: Dec 2005
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Niënna
Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652
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Posted
Wolfgang,
I'm sorry if what I wrote became unclear and confusing but I stand firmly by my whole post.
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[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land
Posts: 2298 | From: Purgatory | Registered: Jun 2003
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strathclydezero
# 180
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfgang:
the will of God.
Lovely phrase, but totally meaningless.
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All religions will pass, but this will remain:
simply sitting in a chair and looking in the distance.
V V Rozanov
Posts: 3276 | From: The Near East | Registered: May 2001
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Wolfgang
Shipmate
# 10809
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Posted
quote:
I'm sorry if what I wrote became unclear and confusing but I stand firmly by my whole post.
Forgive me, but your whole post seemed...erm...to be saying two different things. I don't think I took your comment "God doesn't want obedience" out of the context in which it was written when I quoted it. And as far as I can see the comments I made on it were reasonable...i.e. a view of yours with which I disagree, having read your post in its entirity. Obviously, feel free to argue your point.
quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfgang:
the will of God.
Lovely phrase, but totally meaningless.
Hmm... It may be understood in different ways by different people, it may be subjective, it may have different implications for different people, it may not be easy to understand, it may be a cliche but meaningless it is not.
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"The socialist who is a Christian is more to be dreaded than a socialist who is an atheist" - Dostoevksy
Posts: 121 | From: The North | Registered: Dec 2005
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Niënna
Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652
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Posted
Wolfgang,
I don't mind to agree to disagree.
Often the things I write - I think are perfectly clear and make sense but then I re-read them later and realize that maybe they only make sense to me.
In addition, we may have different takes on what God desires and requires, which no doubt comes in play in this topic.
However problematic/paradoxical my earlier attempt was at explaining my take on obedience- I still am in complete agreement with myself today.
I think our fundamental disagreement on what God primarily desires is perhaps unreconcilable. I'm sure we can both live with that and be happy.
Posts: 2298 | From: Purgatory | Registered: Jun 2003
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
quote:
Obedience is an active choice on our part to submit to the will of God.
This is one way of viewing the question of obedience. However, Paul recommends that we "work out our salvation with fear and trembling." (Phil. 2:12) This suggests, to me, that obedience is a process nearer to JoyfulSoul's quote:
ability to engage with love, hope, and transformation.
Whether we agree or not that there is any single such thing as "the will of God" (as in something that is single, fixed from, as it were, the beginning of time, that it is "closed" rather than "open"), there is still the problem of determining what that will is. OK, in the broader sense we know some things about God's mind, but those priciples still need to be applied, and ISTM that this can only be determined in the context of relationship. Often, the conclusions we come to are little more than informed best guesses, hopefully illuminated by the Spirit, which we appropriate and make our own through faith. It's God who makes up the defecit.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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