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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Faith and salvation -- let's cut to the chase :)
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strathclydezero
# 180
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
OK, in the broader sense we know some things about God's mind
Such as?
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All religions will pass, but this will remain:
simply sitting in a chair and looking in the distance.
V V Rozanov
Posts: 3276 | From: The Near East | Registered: May 2001
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Teapot
Shipmate
# 10837
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfgang:
the will of God.
Lovely phrase, but totally meaningless.
No offence to anyone....but it reminds me of the crusaders battle cry of "God wills it!" ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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No I am NOT short and stout! But I will be happy to accept one of each at a pub :)
Posts: 608 | From: In a shrubbery! | Registered: Dec 2005
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
quote:
Such as?
Such as, those things which Jesus revealed (maybe personified?) : that He thinks we should love one another, that we are all uniquely valuable from His (that is, God's) POV, and that we are loved personally by the creator - and a few other things.
Edited to add
Maybe I wan't clear, or was too ready to result to jargon. When I wrote of "God's mind", I meant, "the things that are God's concerns vis-a-vis humanity", rather than the unsearchable mysteries of the interactions between the persons of the Trinity.
[ 06. February 2006, 13:52: Message edited by: Jolly Jape ]
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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strathclydezero
# 180
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Posted
See - I don't think that any of these are close to being universal experiences of 'God'. It's difficult to comprehend how the natural events within creation which have such dreadful consequences, so often for those people with little or no power, stem from an orchestrator God (a creator if you like). It's difficult to see where the idea of divine love comes from, if not from the idea that we all need to be loved and therefore create it for ourselves.
Edit:
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Maybe I wan't clear, or was too ready to result to jargon. When I wrote of "God's mind", I meant, "the things that are God's concerns vis-a-vis humanity", rather than the unsearchable mysteries of the interactions between the persons of the Trinity.
That much was clear. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ 06. February 2006, 14:01: Message edited by: strathclydezero ]
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All religions will pass, but this will remain:
simply sitting in a chair and looking in the distance.
V V Rozanov
Posts: 3276 | From: The Near East | Registered: May 2001
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfgang:
quote:
Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:
God doesn't want obedience.
![[Confused]](confused.gif) Really?
Yes, really.
I know Freddy will heartily disagree with me, but I believe Joyful was saying that it is not what God primarily wants. She was just humble enough not to argue it with you. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
"Go and learn what this means: I desire mercy, not sacrifice."
Obey all you want and alone it won't please God. (Without faith it is impossible to please God, not obedience.)
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Niënna
Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
She was just humble enough not to argue it with you.
haha. How on earth can I practise humility when I hear things like that?
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[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land
Posts: 2298 | From: Purgatory | Registered: Jun 2003
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Wolfgang
Shipmate
# 10809
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Posted
quote:
"Go and learn what this means: I desire mercy, not sacrifice."
Unsure how this proves your point, Digory.
quote:
(Without faith it is impossible to please God, not obedience.)
Faith and obedience are not incompatible.
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"The socialist who is a Christian is more to be dreaded than a socialist who is an atheist" - Dostoevksy
Posts: 121 | From: The North | Registered: Dec 2005
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfgang:
quote:
"Go and learn what this means: I desire mercy, not sacrifice."
Unsure how this proves your point, Digory.
Me either. This quote is about obeying God, not about faith.
Here is the original in Hosea:
quote:
Hosea 6.4 “ O Ephraim, what shall I do to you?
O Judah, what shall I do to you?
For your faithfulness is like a morning cloud,
And like the early dew it goes away.
And your judgments are like light that goes forth.
6 For I desire mercy and not sacrifice,
And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
7 “ But like men they transgressed the covenant;
There they dealt treacherously with Me.
8 Gilead is a city of evildoers
And defiled with blood.
9 As bands of robbers lie in wait for a man,
So the company of priests murder on the way to Shechem;
Surely they commit lewdness.
10 I have seen a horrible thing in the house of Israel:
There is the harlotry of Ephraim;
Israel is defiled.
It seems to me the context is that Israel is being criticized for not being merciful and instead being immoral.
How about the context of Jesus' quote?
quote:
Matthew 9:12 When Jesus heard that, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”
Matthew 12:6 Yet I say to you that in this place there is One greater than the temple. 7 But if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
Isn't Jesus here also calling on His listeners to change their behavior? He wants them to be merciful.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Niënna
Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652
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Posted
I'm going to go out on a limb. And if I fall, then I fall.
Obedience is good, but love is better.
--That's my interpretation of the verse, "I desire mercy not sacrifice."
But what really comes to mind is the Corinthians verse:
"if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
(1 Corinthians 13:2a-3,8, 13)
The only thing that will remain isn't going to be what we did or how much faith we had in an invisible, intangible, silent deity or how smart and spiritual we are, the only thing that will matter in the end is how much love we have in our hearts.
I think it pleases God when we attempt to live in harmony with one another, but I think it is even more precious to God when we give him our hearts.
I hope this is not too far out in left field.
Freddy, what is your understanding on God's desire for our love vs. acts of faith?
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[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land
Posts: 2298 | From: Purgatory | Registered: Jun 2003
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:
Freddy, what is your understanding on God's desire for our love vs. acts of faith?
I agree with you completely. The point is to have love. Love is the important thing. Everything happens according to the presence or absence of love.
The big "but", however, is that love doesn't just happen, nor is it random. It flows in from God when the conditions are right for its reception. These conditions have to do with beliefs, acts, ideas, choices, time, and other factors. In some ways these are determined by love, and in other ways they affect and shape what we love.
In the end, I think that love only happens in freedom, because freedom and love are very closely connected to each other. So free choice is the ultimate factor. Not that a person always feels free to love or not love, or that they have chosen what they love. Rather, that people only feel free when they can act on what they love, and that when they feel free they will act on their love.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:
But what really comes to mind is the Corinthians verse:
"if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing."
So clearly those of us that have not love may as well do what we damn well like, coz no amount of trying to please God is going to cut it. That's what that verse says to me...
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
So clearly those of us that have not love may as well do what we damn well like, coz no amount of trying to please God is going to cut it. That's what that verse says to me...
So are we thinking that having love is an all-or-nothing proposition? Can't you have just a little love, or more love?
And can't the amount that we have change over time? Can't love grow and develop?
It seems to me that these possibilities are some of the cornerstone assumptions of Christianity.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Niënna
Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:
But what really comes to mind is the Corinthians verse:
"if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing."
So clearly those of us that have not love may as well do what we damn well like, coz no amount of trying to please God is going to cut it. That's what that verse says to me...
you can do whatever the hell you want, Marvin the Martian. But I don't know if that will really make you happy. If you try it, let me know how it works. It didn't make me happy. Maybe you're different.
this is something I'm trying to understand that recently hit me like a stone or something.
i think we (the human race, whatever, blah, blah) are all into the business of trying to sell each other stuff. I know end up doing that sometimes because I'm shallow.
I think some time last week, it suddenly dawned on me that maybe God likes the human race. i would have never have guessed it because of a lot things.
another thing that surprises me is about God liking us - well, at first I thought that God wants me to please him and so I wanted to be good so that God would be happy with me. But this is very frustrating because I constantly f*ck up and then I'm OMG God probably hates me now because I'm such a loser and failure. But now I'm starting to see that God doesn't really give a sh*t about my sh*t and this is very comforting.
and then I realized that God isn't trying to sell me anything at all. In fact, he justs wants me to be me and to be happy whatever the hell that means.
And about not having much love -- I think you underestimate yourself a lot. I still remember a post you wrote awhile back about being concerned about others. I'm sure God knows you much better than a random person on SOF. on the plus side, you can always ask him for more love.
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[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land
Posts: 2298 | From: Purgatory | Registered: Jun 2003
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