homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Ship's Locker   » Limbo   » Purgatory: Grace, Legalism, and Christian Conduct (Page 3)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Grace, Legalism, and Christian Conduct
Jason™

Host emeritus
# 9037

 - Posted      Profile for Jason™   Author's homepage   Email Jason™   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Are you sure that the things required for living a good and happy life in this world, and the things required for living in happiness forever in heaven, are two different sets? Are they unrelated?

I am most certainly not sure. I would only argue that no amount of shortcomings in this life would keep us from the chance to experience that happiness in "heaven" though, thanks be to God.

-Digory

Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

 - Posted      Profile for Lyda*Rose   Email Lyda*Rose   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Thanks, Digory, what beautiful response! That feels right to me.

I think I am emerging from my "slough of despair". [Smile]

--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
anglicanrascal
Shipmate
# 3412

 - Posted      Profile for anglicanrascal   Email anglicanrascal   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Are you sure that the things required for living a good and happy life in this world, and the things required for living in happiness forever in heaven, are two different sets? Are they unrelated?

N T Wright understands that our calling isn't to be forever in heaven with God, but that Jesus will return to reclaim the earth as the place for us to live. Heaven is temporary until the return of Christ, in his view. Were he to be (w)right, I imagine that things that lead to a good and happy life in this world could be just those very same things that would lead to happiness in the eternal world.

Pax,
ar

Posts: 3186 | From: Diocese of Litigalia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Freddy
Shipmate
# 365

 - Posted      Profile for Freddy   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I think the "Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification" by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church is an excellent place to start. Then follow it up with the Catechism on "Grace and Justification." That entire (not so long) chapter is worth your time, it contains unequivcoal statements like "The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace."

One of the primary concepts here is that of imputation.

The idea that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace means that God imputes to us righteousness that is not properly ours.

I'm fine with that idea, but I'm not fine with the idea that it is Christ's merit that gets imputed. That separates Christ and God. Christ should do the imputing. There are only a few biblical statements that imply that Christ's merit is imputed, and there are alternate understandings that are, in my opinion, more consistent with Christ's other statements.

The version of imputation that clears this up, in my opinion, is the idea that our own righteousness, while not ours, is nevertheless imputed to us by God. This seems to be what Jesus is saying in the statements that Lyda Rose quoted in the OP.

Either way, I think imputation is a key idea in thinking about grace, legalism and Christian conduct.

What do others think of the concept of imputation?

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
CrookedCucumber
Shipmate
# 10792

 - Posted      Profile for CrookedCucumber     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:

Either way, I think imputation is a key idea in thinking about grace, legalism and Christian conduct.

What do others think of the concept of imputation?

It would be a nice idea, if it weren't for the fact that globally so few people are so imputed.
Posts: 2718 | From: East Dogpatch | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Freddy
Shipmate
# 365

 - Posted      Profile for Freddy   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by CrookedCucumber:
It would be a nice idea, if it weren't for the fact that globally so few people are so imputed.

You don't think they are imputed? [Confused]

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jason™

Host emeritus
# 9037

 - Posted      Profile for Jason™   Author's homepage   Email Jason™   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think CC is referencing the traditional evangelical understanding that not many make it to heaven*; thus, only very few get this righteousness imputed to them from God which begs other questions that we all can see coming from 30 miles off. [Biased]

-Digory


*Or to put this in other words, so many end up in hell.

[ 25. January 2006, 14:03: Message edited by: professorkirke ]

Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Freddy
Shipmate
# 365

 - Posted      Profile for Freddy   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
I think CC is referencing the traditional evangelical understanding that not many make it to heaven*; thus, only very few get this righteousness imputed to them from God which begs other questions that we all can see coming from 30 miles off. [Biased]

Yes, I think that is what CC means too. It doesn't seem fair to me either.

What I'm saying is that the real problem is with the concept of the imputation of Christ's merit.

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
CrookedCucumber
Shipmate
# 10792

 - Posted      Profile for CrookedCucumber     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
I think CC is referencing the traditional evangelical understanding that not many make it to heaven*; thus, only very few get this righteousness imputed to them from God which begs other questions that we all can see coming from 30 miles off. [Biased]

Well, that's sort of what I meant. But it's not really a case of heaven and hell, more a case of how the imputation is manifested in life. If we are imputed with God's righteousness, then I would expect to see some widespread visible manifestation of that. I'm not sure what I'd be looking for, to be honest; but I feel that I would know it if I saw it [Smile]
Posts: 2718 | From: East Dogpatch | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

 - Posted      Profile for ken     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Who says the saved are a small number anyway?

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Josephine

Orthodox Belle
# 3899

 - Posted      Profile for Josephine   Author's homepage   Email Josephine   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
The idea that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace means that God imputes to us righteousness that is not properly ours. <snip> What do others think of the concept of imputation?

I don't think God is in the business of imputing to us righteousness that is not properly ours. I think he is in the business of making us righteous. He doesn't hide our bruises with makeup, he doesn't cover up the stench of our infected wounds with perfume, and he doesn't pretend we can dance on our crippled legs.

Rather, he treats our wounds, heals our infirmities, and teaches us what we have to do in order to stay healthy and whole. It doesn't always feel good -- sometimes it hurts. We don't always follow his instructions. And even if we do, it's not an instant process. That's why CC doesn't see widespread visible manifestation of righteousness among us -- because we're not healed yet, we're not whole. We're still convalescents. Some of us are, anyway. Others are still in intensive care.

For now, we're still ailing. But by God's grace and mercy, we're getting better, and in the end, we will be truly well. It won't just be something written on our chart, with no reference to our real condition. It will be true.

--------------------
I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!

Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

 - Posted      Profile for IngoB   Email IngoB   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
One of the primary concepts here is that of imputation.

I'm quite annoyed that you say this right after citing my two links, which do not speak of imputation at all (the word "impute" occurs once in the Vatican text, but used quite differently "When persons come by faith to share in Christ, God no longer imputes to them their sin..."). "Imputation" is a Lutheran concept which is alien to RC theology (and alien to the Christian tradition shared with the Orthodox). See for example the summary here. The JDDJ compromise is significant in many ways, one of them is in not mentioning imputation...

--------------------
They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Freddy
Shipmate
# 365

 - Posted      Profile for Freddy   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I'm quite annoyed that you say this right after citing my two links, which do not speak of imputation at all (the word "impute" occurs once in the Vatican text, but used quite differently "When persons come by faith to share in Christ, God no longer imputes to them their sin..."). "Imputation" is a Lutheran concept which is alien to RC theology (and alien to the Christian tradition shared with the Orthodox). See for example the summary here. The JDDJ compromise is significant in many ways, one of them is in not mentioning imputation...

Sorry about that. I did not know that this was a point of contention. I thought that imputation was as implicit in Catholic doctrine as it was explicit in Lutheran.

The Pontifications link was very instructive! I love its assertion that "extrinsic righteousness is the defining characteristic of Protestantism."

I'm not sure that I buy this, however. It seems to me that Jesus' role in the Catholic Trinity is unclear without some form of imputation.

It also seems to me, as I said above, that imputation is what is being described in the statement you quote:
quote:
"The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace."
How is "associating man with the work of grace" not imputation? Or do you agree with me that God imputes righteousness to those who freely obey Him, just as if they had power from themselves to do this?

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jason™

Host emeritus
# 9037

 - Posted      Profile for Jason™   Author's homepage   Email Jason™   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Who says the saved are a small number anyway?

Well, anyone who asserts that you are saved by faith in Christ, for starters. And relative to the people who are living or who have lived on earth, even asserting that you are only saved through one of the many forms of Christianity (saved by God, obviously, but in the way described by a form of Christianity I should say) would still make the number of saved relatively small.

I'm not arguing that either of these concepts are wrong, but just that this tends to be a traditional evangelical view, which I thought CC had been responding to earlier.

-Digory

Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Freddy
Shipmate
# 365

 - Posted      Profile for Freddy   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Who says the saved are a small number anyway?

Well, anyone who asserts that you are saved by faith in Christ, for starters.
Of course, Jesus was asked about this:
quote:
Luke 13.23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?” And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ 26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ 27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. 29 They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And indeed there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last.”
Notice that Jesus does not directly affirm the question by saying that few will be saved. He seems to also say that people all over the world will be saved - perhaps even in preference to those who "ate and drank" in His presence.

I think that most people believe that you don't need to be a Christian to be saved, and that many are saved all over the world, whether Christian or not.

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

 - Posted      Profile for IngoB   Email IngoB   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
I'm not sure that I buy this, however. It seems to me that Jesus' role in the Catholic Trinity is unclear without some form of imputation.

I don't know what you mean by that. Perhaps you are confusing redemption with imputation?

quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
How is "associating man with the work of grace" not imputation? Or do you agree with me that God imputes righteousness to those who freely obey Him, just as if they had power from themselves to do this?

Again, I have no clear idea what you are claiming, other than that it seems to border on Semipelagianism. God's grace is at work in the world, and He allows man to participate in that, to become an instrument of God's grace. I don't see how this means anything is imputed to man, other than analogically speaking. A master violinist may say that his Stradivari is the reason why his concert was so magnificent. But really all that means is that this particular instrument will let his abilities shine as they should, whereas a lesser violin wouldn't to the same extent. Give that Stradivari to a beginner and it sounds horrible, let it not be played and it becomes merely a piece of wood.

--------------------
They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
CrookedCucumber
Shipmate
# 10792

 - Posted      Profile for CrookedCucumber     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Who says the saved are a small number anyway?

Well, anyone who asserts that you are saved by faith in Christ, for starters. And relative to the people who are living or who have lived on earth, even asserting that you are only saved through one of the many forms of Christianity (saved by God, obviously, but in the way described by a form of Christianity I should say) would still make the number of saved relatively small.

I'm not arguing that either of these concepts are wrong, but just that this tends to be a traditional evangelical view, which I thought CC had been responding to earlier.


Maybe that was what was in the back of my mind; but we've already had 30-odd pages of that in the `Will anyone go to Hell' thread, with no clear consensus, so I didn't want to drag the discussion down there again [Smile]

But it seems to me that this thread really is just a variant of that one, when you get right down to it.

Posts: 2718 | From: East Dogpatch | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Freddy
Shipmate
# 365

 - Posted      Profile for Freddy   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
I'm not sure that I buy this, however. It seems to me that Jesus' role in the Catholic Trinity is unclear without some form of imputation.

I don't know what you mean by that. Perhaps you are confusing redemption with imputation?
Maybe. What I mean is that both Catholic and Protestant teaching identify Christ as having borne the sins of humanity on the cross and redeemed us by making satisfaction to the Father. This formula seems to me to mean that the mechanism of any individual's salvation is some way of being included in that act of redemption. The Protestant means is "saving faith" and the Catholic means is transformation through the processes of the church. Correct me if I am wrong about this.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
How is "associating man with the work of grace" not imputation? Or do you agree with me that God imputes righteousness to those who freely obey Him, just as if they had power from themselves to do this?

Again, I have no clear idea what you are claiming, other than that it seems to border on Semipelagianism. God's grace is at work in the world, and He allows man to participate in that, to become an instrument of God's grace. I don't see how this means anything is imputed to man, other than analogically speaking.
I'm saying that people are judged on the basis of whether or not they have freely chosen to love God and the neighbor, as Jesus taught. This is what avails them of God's grace, and is made possible by grace.

But being "associated with the work of grace" means that it is not the will and action of the individual that is counted to him, but the will and action of Christ. Isn't this the common formula in both the Catholic and Protestant traditions?

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools