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» Ship of Fools   » Ship's Locker   » Limbo   » Purgatory: Brother Andrew is praying for you to be persecuted. (Page 2)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Brother Andrew is praying for you to be persecuted.
Gracie
Shipmate
# 3870

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quote:
Originally posted by Corpus cani:
Didn't some famous religious bloke say something like "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God"?


Yes. I take this to mean that in order to live we need bread and every word that proceeds from the mouth of God, the latter not being a substitute for the former. It's the word alone that makes me think this.

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When someone is convinced he’s an Old Testament prophet there’s not a lot you can do with him rationally. - Sine

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daisymay

St Elmo's Fire
# 1480

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mrmister,
are you trying to achieve shipmate status before you end up in hell or sinking deep into the ocean?

And since, IYO, Br Andrew is hypocritical for providing bibles to people who needed and wanted them, but wasn't providing chips and burgers, are you managing to provide essential meals for those with malnutrition? Of course, there would be a difficulty in providing real evidence.

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London
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daisymay

St Elmo's Fire
# 1480

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quote:
Originally posted by Gracie:
quote:
Originally posted by Corpus cani:
Didn't some famous religious bloke say something like "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God"?


Yes. I take this to mean that in order to live we need bread and every word that proceeds from the mouth of God, the latter not being a substitute for the former. It's the word alone that makes me think this.
Absolutely: that's why we use our differently created talents and gifts to work in various ways to help each other.

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London
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mrmister
Shipmate
# 10850

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I don't criticise people for not being martyrs.

"Brother" Andrew does!

--------------------
Just because you believe something is true, that doesn't mean it is.

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Papio

Ship's baboon
# 4201

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quote:
Originally posted by mrmister:
And just in case you're still not clear,

wishing suffering on people is cruel.

Also, criticising people for not helping people while simultaneously not helping them in any practical way (such as giving out food or money) while handing out the bibles is VERY hypocritical.

[Roll Eyes]

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Fuzzipeg
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# 10107

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I can understand Mrmr's antipathy to people who smuggle Bibles. I always find it a risky and rather pointless activity. Risky for the smuggler and the smuggled to.

I know people who do it and they really believe it has value and is important. They are certainly not hypocrites!

As Christians surely we are not supposed to judge other people's motives as we haven't a clue what they are. We make assumptions and they are very often wrong. The fact that we all fall into this trap doesn't make it right.

Let's rather remain agnostic on Br Andrew's motives.

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Dinghy Sailor

Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507

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quote:
Originally posted by mrmister:
"You might very well think that, I couldn't possibly comment..."

The hubris of youth.

I don't know what you're on abut here. But please stop trying to brag authority for yourself by pouring scorn on others. How old are you, anyway? Whatever your age, it doesn't excuse you from answering direct questions.

quote:
As for the Bible, I don't see it as being a moral document, no.

It is, to me, not unlike an extremely bad liar that keeps changing his story.

It drips with blood, vengeance, murder, and scaremongering.

I do not need to worship the book to believe in Jesus.

A simple "Yes, because..." or "No, because..." would be nice?

quote:
And no, I don't think distributing the Bible is a particularly humanitarian thing to do. I believe it furthers particular religious and social agendas, but I don't think it improves the human condition any.

Agendas such as "Love your neighbour as yourself"?

quote:
God does not need a book in someone's hand in order to be in control of the universe.
[/quote]
No, but since we're living in that universe, a lot of people are kinda grateful when they're able to find out what the guy runnng the show's like?

quote:
[qb]Therefore I do not feel Brother Andrew, or anyone else for that matter, should be making it their life's work to distribute that book, certainly not setting themselves up as a martyr for it, and definitely not criticising others for not doing the same, which he did in that article, which you haven't read.

Okay, two things:
1) Stop sounding condescending because I haven't read an article which you haven't provided. That's your problem, not mine.
2)You have repeatedly called him a hypocrite because of this issue. This now seems to be because you disagree with him distributing the bible. However, to be a hypocrite, he'd have to think that people needed food far more than bibles, and that he was the man to distribute food, but distribute bibles not food anyway. If he thinks that people genuinely need bibles, and you don't, then you simply think that he is WRONG, not a HYPOCRITE. Is this clear?

quote:
"Brother" Andrew is a hypocrite in that he preaches love and kindness but wishes suffering on people.
Examples have repeatedly been given of non-hypocritical people wishing suffering on those they love. The parent smacks the child because they see it as the only way that the child is going to grow up with good qualities such as honesty, that will serve them well all their lives. Brother Andrew presumably sees persecution as the only thing which will cause the church to get its act together and, presumably, convert lots more people. The benefits of conversion, I'm sure he believes to be worth some persecution. Eternal life for starters. Now if you disagree with the benefits of conversion bit, you again think he is WRONG, not a HYPOCRITE. Before you call him a hypocrite again, please tell me exactly which sentence here you disagree with.


quote:
Each must carry his own cross, Jesus said...
You're quoting this completely out of context.

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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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Gracie
Shipmate
# 3870

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quote:
Originally posted by dinghy sailor:

Examples have repeatedly been given of non-hypocritical people wishing suffering on those they love. The parent smacks the child because they see it as the only way that the child is going to grow up with good qualities such as honesty, that will serve them well all their lives. Brother Andrew presumably sees persecution as the only thing which will cause the church to get its act together and, presumably, convert lots more people. The benefits of conversion, I'm sure he believes to be worth some persecution...

dinghy sailor,

I'm not sure that a parent smacking a child could be described as "wishing suffering" them, but in any case I don't think your illustration is a valid one as a parent has authority and responsibility for their child. What Brother Andrew is reported to have said, is more a like an abusive parent saying to a child "Well you haven't done anything naughty recently but I'm going to give you six of the best to keep you in line." That's the kind of memory it evokes for me anyway. I don't think a loving parent behaves in that way, even if they protest that they are a loving parent.

And to repeat what I said earlier, I really don't think it's up to Brother Andrew to decide what it would take for the western church to get it's act together. It seems to me he would be better of praying quite simply that God would help the church get its act together, and leave it up to God to choose the means.

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When someone is convinced he’s an Old Testament prophet there’s not a lot you can do with him rationally. - Sine

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mrmister
Shipmate
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Well said! [Smile]

--------------------
Just because you believe something is true, that doesn't mean it is.

Check out this link about Carl Sagan's Dragon: http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm

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Dinghy Sailor

Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507

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I agree with your second paragraph. Quite how you say that a parent smacking their child is not wishing suffering them, I'm not sure, though. They are wilfully inflicting a painful experience on them, out of their own choice.

My point was merely that he's (Brother Andrew's)_ not necessarily just wishing pain on people, he's wishing joy and happiness on them, but he sees that as only being possible through specific sorts of pain first. HE sees only one possible means to that, which is where you and I would take issue that.

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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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mrmister
Shipmate
# 10850

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"Brother" Andrew thinks his unshakeable belief in what he sees as the truth justifies his, as he sees it, efficacious means of prayer for suffering.

It's dysfunctional.

And nobody minds, because it's dressed up as religion.

But what kind of person wishes others to suffer?

Remove religion from it for a moment and consider.

To my mind, that's cruel.

There are PLENTY of Christians around that do NOT just see suffering as a means to an end, but an end in itself.

I know plenty of Christians like that.

So do plenty of other people - consider Opus Dei, for example.

While the point can indeed be pseudointellectualised, the experience of such in my view dysfunctional people is rather less entertaining, and in my view to be avoided.

--------------------
Just because you believe something is true, that doesn't mean it is.

Check out this link about Carl Sagan's Dragon: http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm

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Gracie
Shipmate
# 3870

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quote:
Originally posted by dinghy sailor:
I agree with your second paragraph. Quite how you say that a parent smacking their child is not wishing suffering them, I'm not sure, though. They are wilfully inflicting a painful experience on them, out of their own choice.

My point was merely that he's (Brother Andrew's)_ not necessarily just wishing pain on people, he's wishing joy and happiness on them, but he sees that as only being possible through specific sorts of pain first. HE sees only one possible means to that, which is where you and I would take issue that.

Well it's not wishing suffering, in that it's actually causing suffering. I would say that if it's administered correctly, the amount of suffering is measured, which is a far cry from wishing indiscriminate persecution on thousands and thousands of people.

The fact that he sees persecution as a necessary precursor to blessing, and chooses to express that publically as a "prayer" seems so wrong to me. Many persecutions in church history just haven't resulted in blessing.

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When someone is convinced he’s an Old Testament prophet there’s not a lot you can do with him rationally. - Sine

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Wolfgang
Shipmate
# 10809

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quote:
The fact that he sees persecution as a necessary precursor to blessing, and chooses to express that publically as a "prayer" seems so wrong to me.
I am of the opinion that we should not ask for persecution as Christians but we should expect it.

Gracie, some questions:
Is what you see as wrong his belief alone (persecution as a necessary precursor to blessing) AND his public expression of this OR the fact that these two are combined?
I have to confess that I don't think any Christian can escape at least some suffering for Christ's sake and I also believe (however unpopular it might be, esp on the Ship!) that the cross must precede the crown.

quote:
Many persecutions in church history just haven't resulted in blessing.
An example, perhaps? How are you defining blessing here? Blessing for whom? How are you squaring this with Matt 5:10 "Blessed are the persecuted"?

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"The socialist who is a Christian is more to be dreaded than a socialist who is an atheist" - Dostoevksy

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Gracie
Shipmate
# 3870

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quote:
Originally posted by Wolfgang:
I am of the opinion that we should not ask for persecution as Christians but we should expect it.

For starters, I don't have any problem with this. Expect persecution, yes, Jesus himself tells us to do that, but pray for it for other Christians, no, and all the more so not publicly.

quote:

Gracie, some questions:
Is what you see as wrong his belief alone (persecution as a necessary precursor to blessing) AND his public expression of this OR the fact that these two are combined?



I think all of the above. Though more specifically, Brother Andrew is talking about revival, not general blessing.

quote:


quote:
Many persecutions in church history just haven't resulted in blessing.
An example, perhaps? How are you defining blessing here? Blessing for whom? How are you squaring this with Matt 5:10 "Blessed are the persecuted"?
I think there is a distinction to be drawn between "blessedness" as in "blessed are..." and "blessing". In this context, I was thinking of the more specific "blessing" of revival as defined by Brother Andrew. And I have already mentioned the Huguenots in this post .

The Matthew 5:10 reference suggests blessing in heaven to me, not revival just round the corner. I just can't see myself praying for another St. Bartholomew's Day massacre.

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When someone is convinced he’s an Old Testament prophet there’s not a lot you can do with him rationally. - Sine

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John Holding

Coffee and Cognac
# 158

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[hostly maple-lead tuque on]

So far as we know, Brother Andrew does not post on this bulletin board.

Fairly clearly, he's human, and from what I've read, intensely aware that he has fallen short of the glory of God, just like the rest of us. Including, I suppose, Mrmister.

Mrminister has made abundantly clear that he really really doesn't like Brother Andrew, and is not willing to grant Brother Andrew the same grace I hope he grants the sinners he meets day by day to be imperfect and to be different from what he, Mrmister, would like them to be.

But Brother Andrew can't answer. And none of the rest of us can answer.

So this is looking a lot like a crusade which would be a breach of Commandment 8, and from time to time has resembled a personal attack, which would be a breach of Commandment 3.

Any more and there will be a Hostly reprimand.

Talke about any number of things that might be implied by the OP, but no personal attacks, and no crusading.

John Holding
Purgatory Host

[Hostly maple-lead tuque off}

[ 01. January 2006, 18:28: Message edited by: John Holding ]

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mrmister
Shipmate
# 10850

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Well this is true, he's not around to reply.

But then neither is Mrs Thatcher.

Or, in fact, Jesus Christ...

but point taken.

By the way what's a maple tuque!?

--------------------
Just because you believe something is true, that doesn't mean it is.

Check out this link about Carl Sagan's Dragon: http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm

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Dinghy Sailor

Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507

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Jesus Christ isn't arount to reply?

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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
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mrmister
Shipmate
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One sec.

Hello, Jesus? Jesus, are you there? We'd quite like you to contribute to this thread if you would?

--------------------
Just because you believe something is true, that doesn't mean it is.

Check out this link about Carl Sagan's Dragon: http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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Sorry, I've got here a bit late.

mrmister, presumably you have already sold all you have, given the proceeds to the poor and are living a life of poverty and selfless service to the poor.

Given that you are spending a lot of time on this internet site, I'm guessing that it is safe to assume that you are not.

Therefore you have made a decision why you have not given yourself 100% to feeding the hungry in the most obvious and basic way. That might include that you think that God does not necessarily ask each of us to do the same stuff. Someone might be called to smuggle bread. Some might be called to stay at home and do other stuff (insert your own occupation here).

Surely using the same logic some people might be called to take the bible to those living in repressive regimes who do not have access to it.

People do different stuff. It seems a tad bizarre to castigate someone for something he isn't actually doing. If you don't like him why not just ignore him? He's only a glorified encylopedia salesman anyhow (according to your description)..

Certainly not a hypocrite by any definition I recognise.

Returning to the OP, therefore,

I *think* I'd agree that it is a strange thing to be praying for bad stuff to happen to someone else. On the other hand, having visited christian communities living in hard circumstances, I'd say that it is undoubtably true that they have something that we I have never experienced in the west.

IME they are a bit more ready to take a few risks, go out on a limb to try new things, much more generous with their time and finances. After some considerable thought, I conclude that this is because they have nothing to lose.

If we in our wealthy complacity could obtain a small percentage of their commitment, I think we could do the impossible.

Disclaimer: these comments only reflect the poor people I know. Of course, I recognise that there are Christians in all kinds of trouble and that there is no automatic dignity in poverty.

C

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arse

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Wolfgang
Shipmate
# 10809

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quote:
And I have already mentioned the Huguenots in this post .

My apologies.

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"The socialist who is a Christian is more to be dreaded than a socialist who is an atheist" - Dostoevksy

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John Holding

Coffee and Cognac
# 158

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Mrmister --

that should have been maple- leaf [Hot and Hormonal]

The maple leaf is a symbol of Canada. Canada is a cold country and we wear tuques in the winter. You may have noticed my location in, ah, Canada. Unlike a certain Hellhost who flaunts his red maple leaf avatar everywhere while living next door instead (leaving aside a week or so last month), I only flaunt my maple leaf when I'm doing the hostly thing.


John

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Spong

Ship's coffee grinder
# 1518

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quote:
Mrmister wittered
There are PLENTY of Christians around that do NOT just see suffering as a means to an end, but an end in itself.

I know plenty of Christians like that.

So do plenty of other people - consider Opus Dei, for example.

The extent to which Opus Dei practice mortification of the flesh is a moot point, and it's certainly not a practice that I see any point in, but they certainly don't do it as an end in itself. To the extent that they do it at all, they do it as a way of getting closer to God.

If you deign to reply, can you provide non-conspiracy theorist evidence (e.g. not mentioning the Da Vinci Code...) for the extent to which Opus Dei do practice mortification of the flesh and, more importantly, evidence that they do so purely as an end in itself?

Spong

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Spong

The needs of our neighbours are the needs of the whole human family. Let's respond just as we do when our immediate family is in need or trouble. Rowan Williams

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mrmister
Shipmate
# 10850

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I like maple syrup.

It's so intimate [Razz]

--------------------
Just because you believe something is true, that doesn't mean it is.

Check out this link about Carl Sagan's Dragon: http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm

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Scot

Deck hand
# 2095

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ADMIN WARNING

When you registered to use these boards, mrmister, you agreed to abide by the Ship's 10 Commandments. Commandment 6 requires that you respect the hosts, who are here to keep these boards functioning smoothly.

You can tell when a host is posting as a host because he will normally state so explicitly. By tradition, the hosts often use some sort of unique "hostly headgear."

If you disagree with a host, you may start a thread in the Styx to discuss the matter. If you ignore official hostly directives, you are very likely to find your posting privileges suspended.

Scot
Member Admin

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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

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mrmister
Shipmate
# 10850

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quote:
If you disagree with a host, you may start a thread in the Styx to discuss the matter. If you ignore official hostly directives, you are very likely to find your posting privileges suspended.
How did I ignore an "official hostly directive"?

I'm unclear as to what you find objectionable?

I just said I liked maple syrup.

--------------------
Just because you believe something is true, that doesn't mean it is.

Check out this link about Carl Sagan's Dragon: http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm

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mrmister
Shipmate
# 10850

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http://www.odan.org/corporal_mortification.htm

--------------------
Just because you believe something is true, that doesn't mean it is.

Check out this link about Carl Sagan's Dragon: http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm

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Scot

Deck hand
# 2095

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You didn't quite, yet. You can tell because you are still able to post here. You did ignore my instruction to take any argument to the Styx.

If it helps, you can consider my comments general and applicable to all of the threads where hosts have warned you.

Scot
Member Admin

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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

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mrmister
Shipmate
# 10850

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Righto. 'Nuff said.

--------------------
Just because you believe something is true, that doesn't mean it is.

Check out this link about Carl Sagan's Dragon: http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm

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Spong

Ship's coffee grinder
# 1518

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quote:
Originally posted by mrmister:
http://www.odan.org/corporal_mortification.htm

This was meant to justify your comment that Opus Dei see 'suffering' as an end in itself and not a means to an end.

The page you reference lists 6 types of corporal mortification as practised by Opus Dei numeraries - the equivalent of monks/nuns. It's a site that is clearly and unambiguously anti-Opus Dei, but I agree it is not a conspiracy theorist site.

Of the six, two are not really 'mortification' at all. One is nighttime silence, which is standard monastic practice, and another is a rather weird morning ritual, but it's not much more than a dedication of oneself to God (and a way of not falling asleep again when there is no snooze button to hit).

Another two are scarcely worth a raised eyebrow - the sort of mealtime practice that we all might practice for Lent or as a New Year resolution, and that mens sana ritual that used to be so beloved of public schools, the cold shower.

That leaves the cilice and the 'discipline'. Quite apart from the fact that there are several regular posters on this board who would explain how much fun things like that can be, and that Opus Dei numeraries are just don't make the grade as submissives, these really don't amount to 'suffering'. Discomfort, yes, and they certainly don't float my boat, but they're not 'suffering'.

So you fail to answer the first criticism I raised. You don't even try to deal with the second (that this is an end in itself) but the page you reference has the following which makes it clear that it is NOT an end in itself, it is a means to an end:

quote:
Yet human diligence, with mortification, the cilice, disciplines and fasting are all worthless without you, my God."
Spong

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Spong

The needs of our neighbours are the needs of the whole human family. Let's respond just as we do when our immediate family is in need or trouble. Rowan Williams

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ecumaniac

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quote:
Originally posted by Spong:
That leaves the cilice and the 'discipline'. Quite apart from the fact that there are several regular posters on this board who would explain how much fun things like that can be

[Killing me] "Thanks for the discipline, it's very nice, but do they come in leather?"

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it's a secret club for people with a knitting addiction, hiding under the cloak of BDSM - Catrine

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duchess

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# 2764

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quote:
Originally posted by mrmister:
I read a quote from the famous "Brother Andrew", who appears to have smuggled Bibles (but not food or money) to Christians in various countries in a publication. It read as follows:

quote:
Do you think persecution is going to come to Europe and America?

Yes, and we need it. Sometimes I think, "God, hasten the day."

Source: Open Doors publication January 2006, back page, interview with "Brother Andrew"

I for one was concerned albeit unsurprised by this.

By the looks of it, the Chinese Church are praying for the same thing!

Here are two articles about it:

Click >here< and >here<

Should Brother Andrew's prayer be granted? Should he be praying this kind of thing?

Exactly what is the point of prayer?

Thoughts? Comments?

Getting back to the OP...my 2 cents...

The point of prayer is:
1) to glorify God
2) to engage in a dialogue with God
3) to ask/seek things from God

Should his (Brother Andrew's) request be granted?
I don't know. I do agree we Americans could use a wake-up call on what real persecution is. Kelly Alves's post hit the nail on the head about that. We (general population included myself in this) make comfort an idol (especially in Silicon Valley where dial-up is considered roughing it). Real life censorship of Christians in China is horrible to read about. The things that go on (just read stuff on the web, especially taken from VOM.

How God decides to move His church into our hearts is up to him. I would hope instead of telling God how to do his job (make us suffer as much as the Chinese people do when persecuted), he would pray for God to give us the passion and conviction to share the Good News to others on fire for God like many in China do (and I do personally know a couple in China from my church that do albeit they are being treated very well right now by the Chinese gov't interestly enough).

KLOVE has said that many in China thanked them for their free internet broadcast of their music (heard this on the air during a pledge drive). No KLOVE would exist here in America if we were persecuted like they are in China.

It is hard to read about and painful to watch. I have a hard time even thinking about it. And I do pray for them when I do remember to for God to spare them and help China to become more like Albania is...a free place to share religion that used to be oppessive.

I think the motivation behind the prayer is an interesting thing to contemplate. Prayer for America to have more and more Christians stepping up to the plate would be a wonderful thing. But I personally already realise God has blessed my country, warts and all, with freedom to practice my religion and share the Gospel wherever I choose, even in jail. And that is precious to me.

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Evo1
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# 10249

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Don't know whether this is useful in contemplating what Brother Andrew's motives may be. (Though I don't know, I have never really met or read anything by him).

I have a friend who has a serious gambling problem. He is not all that wealthy - though his family were. He had managed to run up £100,000 of debt and was showing no signs of admitting his problem..

I found myself praying that he would be made bankrupt for his own good.

That was a few years ago, now his debt is nearer £250,000 and his family have lent him significant amounts too.

Now it looks likely he will go bankrupt shortly as his credit runs out. But now, there may also be counts of fraud to answer.

I felt awful praying for his downfall years ago, but it would have been so much better for him had it happened then.

[ 02. January 2006, 08:58: Message edited by: Evo1 ]

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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus

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Zwingli
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# 4438

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Thanks Evo1, I think your friend's story shows a good perspective on the issue at hand.

I can't see the point in praying for persecution; it sounds rather like praying that I will lose my job so that God will teach me something. If the church acts as it should, and stands as a sanctified example to the world, it will be persecuted as a matter of course. How God chooses to use that persecution to bless the church is up to him. Also for individuals, holiness often leads to persecution, even from within the church. Praying for godly churches, and that those who do happen to be persecuted will bear up in an honourable, not vindictive, fashion and have their faith refined by the process, are much better things to pray for.

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Jason™

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# 9037

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But folks,

It sounds as though some of you are saying that Evo1 should have prayed for his friend to simply receive a check for £100,000 so he'd be out of debt.

But I think we'd all agree how detrimental this could have been for the person--to avoid all consequences of his decisions and never learn about debt.

Bankruptcy, though tough, may have been the best possible lesson for the person to learn for future decision-making. If that's the case, then Evo's prayer was perfect for the situation. And if that is what God was wanting for the person, who are we to trust or know if Evo was simply aligning his prayers to what God wanted?

In the same way, Br. Andrew may have in fact been aligning himself with what God wants for his people. How are we to know?

I say, let him pray for what he wants to pray for. I trust my God enough to know he'll only give me what I need, regardless of Br. Andrew's prayers.

-Digory

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Gracie
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# 3870

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quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:


I say, let him pray for what he wants to pray for. I trust my God enough to know he'll only give me what I need, regardless of Br. Andrew's prayers.

As I've said before, anyone is free to pray whatever they like in private. When someone makes known publicly what they are praying they are doing more than praying in my opinion.

I haven't seen anyone suggest that Evo1 should have prayed for his friend to receive a huge sum of money to get rid of his debt.

Earlier on, you asked me if I only ever prayed a certain prayer. I asked you why you wanted to know before giving an answer, but you didn't answer my question so I didn't take it any further.

This latest exchange has reminded me of that and of someone I knew who died from an alcohol-induced coma and who wasn't found for at least a couple of weeks. I remember praying for this person, that God would intervene to deliver him from his alcohol problem. I would never have presumed to pray for his death, but frankly I found the turn of events very scary.

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When someone is convinced he’s an Old Testament prophet there’s not a lot you can do with him rationally. - Sine

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Jason™

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# 9037

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quote:
Originally posted by Gracie:
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:


I say, let him pray for what he wants to pray for. I trust my God enough to know he'll only give me what I need, regardless of Br. Andrew's prayers.

As I've said before, anyone is free to pray whatever they like in private. When someone makes known publicly what they are praying they are doing more than praying in my opinion.
We're agreed on this. Most people on the thread are talking about the wrongness of praying the prayer at all, not just the public-ness of the prayer.

quote:
Earlier on, you asked me if I only ever prayed a certain prayer. I asked you why you wanted to know before giving an answer, but you didn't answer my question so I didn't take it any further.
It was in response to you saying it would be better to simply pray that one prayer. But assuming that you don't only pray that prayer, then obviously there are times when other prayers are called for/appropriate. It's probably up to the individual who is praying to make that decision as to the appropriateness of the prayer. (But like we've said several times, we agree that the public nature of the controversial prayer was probably uncalled for.)

quote:
This latest exchange has reminded me of that and of someone I knew who died from an alcohol-induced coma and who wasn't found for at least a couple of weeks. I remember praying for this person, that God would intervene to deliver him from his alcohol problem. I would never have presumed to pray for his death, but frankly I found the turn of events very scary.
Well, no. Death has no rehabilitative quality. But praying that someone with an alcohol problem would receive a DUI and be mandated to treatment may not be out of the question for some desperate family members/friends. (I work for a drug/alcohol treatment center and have seen this very behavior many times, in fact.)

-Digory

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Gracie
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# 3870

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quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
Well, no. Death has no rehabilitative quality.

Unless you believe that death is the ultimate rehabilitation! And you think that is the only way out for them! That is a problem I have with the substance of Brother Andrew's prayer, as persecution usually leads to the death of some. cf. also my comments on the Huguenots...

[ 02. January 2006, 17:23: Message edited by: Gracie ]

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When someone is convinced he’s an Old Testament prophet there’s not a lot you can do with him rationally. - Sine

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mrmister
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# 10850

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"Off with his head!" cried the Judge. "That'll learn him"

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Just because you believe something is true, that doesn't mean it is.

Check out this link about Carl Sagan's Dragon: http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm

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Matt Black

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# 2210

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A couple of points:-

1. As others have pointed out, the countries to which Brother Andrew has smuggled Bibles, whilst not exactly being the aflluent West, were by and large not exactly starving either, and I'm therefore not sure what the point is re him not bringing food or money to those who already had both. To my mind, there's not a lot of point in smuggling food to people who aren't starving and there is quite a large point in smuggling Bibles to those who aren't able to have access to them.

And, no, the citizens of the former eastern bloc were not starving. I don't know whether I qualify as young, old or middle-aged as far as MrMr is concerned but I've been there on several occasions and can attest to this. My first wife was Russian and on the first couple of times I visited her family I did bring Bibles with me...er...because they didn't have any nor were they particularly available. I didn't bring food - because they not only had that but in fact also fed me whilst I was there with no difficulty. I didn't bring money either - because they had a sufficiency of that too and also the currencies were not then convertible so there was no point.

I guess that makes me a hypocrite then.

2. Persecution - yes, an unfortunate choice of words by Brother Andrew if he indeed prayed that. But I think I can see what he meant and, if so, his motives were honourable; I would be inclined to put it down to a bit of 'Duke of Edinburgh-itis'

But then again I'm a generous bloke - as well as a hypocrite - apparently.

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Birdseye

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# 5280

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I've just read the quote again and it doesn't actually say the Brother Andrew 'prays for persecution' just that he honestly admits that 'sometimes' (ie not ALL the time) he 'thinks' (not prays) 'hasten the day'.

And no, I don't think that thinking something whilst God is 'in earshot' is the same as actually asking for something in prayer... (after all, He is there all the time eh what?)
sounds more like on occasions Brother Andrew gets frustrated, as we all do, at having to be patient to see progress -so he's thinking -hurry up and give us lazy Christians a kick up the backside to get us practicing what we preach instead of dwindling and dying of apathy.

Kind of a feisty religious 'bring it on!'

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Life is what happens whilst you're busy making other plans.
a birdseye view

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Gracie
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# 3870

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quote:
Originally posted by Birdseye:
I've just read the quote again and it doesn't actually say the Brother Andrew 'prays for persecution' just that he honestly admits that 'sometimes' (ie not ALL the time) he 'thinks' (not prays) 'hasten the day'.


Actually what he says he thinks, is not "hasten the day, but "God, hasten the day" which sound pretty much like prayer from my perspective.

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When someone is convinced he’s an Old Testament prophet there’s not a lot you can do with him rationally. - Sine

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religious kittens
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Not sure if this post is still really active but here's my pennysworth.

Isn't there a difference between intercessory prayer (i.e. please God make this happen) and what I might call conversation prayer.

Example: I've had a very stressful day at work and I can't stand my colleague. If I pray:

"God I can't stand my workmate. Sometimes I wish she'd just drop dead."

then i wouldn't class this as intercessory prayer. Nor am I claiming this is an example of deep holy prayer but I suspect most of us have felt something similar at some point.

Bringing this bk to Brother Andrew therefore it doesn't read as if he's praying in an intercessory way

"God bring persecution"
but rather by way of conversation

"God it frustrates me the way the WEstern church behaves. Sometimes I wish you'd bring persecution to give it a short sharp shock."

See the difference?

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Psyduck

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# 2270

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Well, yes, of course. And I suppose, God forgive me, that I do sometimes wish terrible things on people. I was cut up on the road by a driver, once, and to make matters worse the guy had an Ichthus fish on his boot! I horrified myself by blurting out "I hope your piles open!!!"

It didn't show me at my best... [Hot and Hormonal]

And I would have been appalled if it had happened. [Two face]

No, really, God forgive me [Help]

[Big Grin] [Big Grin] [Big Grin]

You're right. It wasn't a prayer. But there is the point that I moved on immediately to feeling bad about having thought it, and knowing of an absolute certainty that I wouldn't want it to happen.

That, I think, would be the only way in which a Christian should pray for the Church in the West to be persecuted. As a fugitive thought you instantly know is unworthy.

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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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Janine

The Endless Simmer
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Because of passages like Timothy 1:18-20, I never have thought it a problem to wish -- to pray -- that someone "see the light". Even if it means they'll suffer a bit to make it happen.

'Course I always hope they'll get the picture before their piles open.

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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
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Psyduck

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# 2270

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Janine:
quote:
'Course I always hope they'll get the picture before their piles open.
And yet there's Ps. 78: 66:
quote:
And he smote his enemies in the hinder parts: he put them to a perpetual reproach.
And I Sam 5: 9:
quote:
[9]... and he smote the men of the city, both small and great, and they had emerods in their secret parts.


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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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Beautiful Dreamer
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# 10880

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I dont know if we should be persecuted or not but you would not believe the number of times I have heard people say we *are* perseucted. I have heard evangelicals and fundamentalists whine about being persecuted when the real truth is that they have to share Jesus with us liberals and have to give up running the show. I don't have a problem with evangelicals but I have to draw the line when I hear things like this-Christians are *not* persecuted here in America in the least. It might be difficult sometimes, but since when has being a Christian been easy? I don't know.

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More where that came from
Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time!

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A Feminine Force
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# 7812

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Brother Andrew is a pompous dork.

I consider the source and have a good laugh.

Go ahead, Bro, knock yourself out.

FF

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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?

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molitva
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The second link in the OP (the first was broken) gives a thoughtful and interesting commentary on the Chinese Christian remark about praying for persecution. It explicitly rejects the logic of Brother Andrew's position, at least as imputed in parts of this thread. Among other things, the article says:

quote:
So, if persecution has been good for Christianity, does this mean we should cultivate martyrdom? Not at all. It was good that Rome finally legalized Christianity (though this would have unintended bad consequences). Today we should work to promote religious freedom around the world, including China. And we should resist—while we can—the assaults on that freedom in our own country. Nor should individual Christians try to turn themselves into "martyrs" through obnoxious or illegal behavior.

The Reformers made it clear that "self-chosen" suffering—as in asceticism, self-flagellation, and purposefully getting in trouble—has no spiritual value and can contribute to works righteousness and hypocrisy. But suffering that we do not want, enduring trials and tribulations out of our control, can be a refining fire, forcing us to depend ever more on Christ.

(emphasis added)

Thanks for providing this thought-provoking link, MrMister.

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Lyda*Rose

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# 4544

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quote:
Originally posted by Beautiful_Dreamer:
I dont know if we should be persecuted or not but you would not believe the number of times I have heard people say we *are* perseucted. I have heard evangelicals and fundamentalists whine about being persecuted when the real truth is that they have to share Jesus with us liberals and have to give up running the show. I don't have a problem with evangelicals but I have to draw the line when I hear things like this-Christians are *not* persecuted here in America in the least. It might be difficult sometimes, but since when has being a Christian been easy? I don't know.

Frankly, I think a lot of US evangelicals are happy as pie with the little inconveniences the strict secularists or PC police put them through. I mean, having to listen to "Happy Holidays" from strangers for the last two months! [Eek!] The anti-Christ is on the move fur shure- get those evangelical stormtroopers on the street corners; got to beat the race to Armaggedon!

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Psyduck

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# 2270

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Of course, Jesus, in the Lord's Prayer no less, would have us pray not to be led into testing...

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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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