homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Ship's Locker   » Limbo   » Purgatory: Failing our Muslim Sisters in the name of Multiculturalism (Page 2)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Failing our Muslim Sisters in the name of Multiculturalism
R.D. Olivaw
Shipmate
# 9990

 - Posted      Profile for R.D. Olivaw   Email R.D. Olivaw   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
This is a good paper that is included on a very interesting website.

--------------------
We are here to awaken from the illusion of our separateness -Thich Nhat Hanh

Posts: 496 | From: I'm a leaf on the wind | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

 - Posted      Profile for mdijon     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
I think the relativism here which would equate wearing school uniforms with forcing girls into marriage at 13 is pretty scary.

Please don't include me here. What I would like to see, though, is the idea that one could stop honour killings and the like without an attack on wearing the hijab and other religious and cultural norms. That doesn't necessarily equate those two evils.

I'd like to avoid this being a "my culture versus your culture".... and I believe this can be done.... by emphasising universal morality. Honor killing, sexual abuse, 13 year old marriages.... these things are just plain wrong, whatever one's cultural background.

And I'm still keen on a definition of what Multiculturalism in this context.

--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

 - Posted      Profile for ken     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I remember being on a discussion forum, talking about multiculturalism, where one person kept insisting that one value system is just as good as the other.

As far as I remember I've never met anyone who actually really argued for that.

If that sort of immoral stupidity is what the right-wing media mean by "multicultural" than they are right to oppose it. But its not what most of us mean by it nor what happens in the places most of us live.

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

 - Posted      Profile for ken     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
What I would like to see, though, is the idea that one could stop honour killings and the like without an attack on wearing the hijab and other religious and cultural norms.

I'm not sure you can.

When I see someone wearing chains, I assume they are a prisoner.

If we are to stop families murdering their own daughters (don't call it "hoinour killing" there is nothing honourable about it it is the actions of people who are without honour, losers who are oppressed and depressed and hopless and angry and take revenge on the few people they can find who are weaker than them) there has to be a shift in the balamnce of power in families away from men and towards women. Women have to be able to stand up to men. That's unlikely to happen if they are cooped up in back rooms, isolated, uneducated, forced to hide their own faces from the world.

(*) Not if by "hijab" you mean the whole system of covering up and sequestration of women practiced in some places (not, for what its worth, in most or Turkey or that much among the Turks who live in London - maybe they are a different sort than the ones in Germany) That's a very different thing from just wearing a headscarf.

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826

 - Posted      Profile for LutheranChik   Author's homepage   Email LutheranChik   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
To me the whole notion of hijab assumes some sort of inherent defect in women; if that were not so, then men would also be required to "cover" as well. (And don't tell me about their own set of modesty rules -- they aren't nearly as restrictive of movement and freedom.) Here is what hijab suggests:

Women are "temptresses" from whose appearance pious men must be protected;

Women are chattel, or at least incompetent persons needing (male) guardianship, and "covering" is primarily about protecting the proprietary interests of fathers/brothers/husbands.

Men are brainless beasts who aren't even capable of looking at a woman's hair without going out of control, like dogs in an alley...and, for some reason, this is seen as the women's burden.

So it's not just about wearing a scarf. You have to think of the why .

--------------------
Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com

Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Tabby Cat
Shipmate
# 4561

 - Posted      Profile for Tabby Cat     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
What about the girls who wouldn't be allowed to go to school at all if they couldn't cover themselves up there? Banning the hijab wouldn't only give the fanatics Russ's "warm glow of being persecuted" but would probably lead to a lot of girls being stuck at home where they'd have even less chance of getting a proper education...
Posts: 1063 | From: Paddling at the edge of the sea | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826

 - Posted      Profile for LutheranChik   Author's homepage   Email LutheranChik   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Don't get me wrong. I'm not at all in favor of banning hijab -- in fact, I think that's a chowderheaded idea, for the very reasons you state. I think the answer to the problem lies, in, on one hand, governments prosecuting human rights violations fairly across the board, including in ethnic enclaves, and on the other hand in educating these populations about their rights/privileges/responsibilities as citizens or resident aliens of whatever country they're in. I really don't see either happening. And this gives religious extremists an "in."

--------------------
Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com

Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012

 - Posted      Profile for daronmedway     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
To me the whole notion of hijab assumes some sort of inherent defect in women; if that were not so, then men would also be required to "cover" as well. (And don't tell me about their own set of modesty rules -- they aren't nearly as restrictive of movement and freedom.) Here is what hijab suggests:

Women are "temptresses" from whose appearance pious men must be protected;

Women are chattel, or at least incompetent persons needing (male) guardianship, and "covering" is primarily about protecting the proprietary interests of fathers/brothers/husbands.

Men are brainless beasts who aren't even capable of looking at a woman's hair without going out of control, like dogs in an alley...and, for some reason, this is seen as the women's burden.

So it's not just about wearing a scarf. You have to think of the why .

I think it's because Islam doesn't have much concept of interior mortification of sin. The awareness of an inner condition of sinfulness (which is universal to humanity) has led, in some expressions of Islam, to the practice of extreme projection. So - in the case of hijab - instead of dealing with subject of lust (i.e men) Sharia law has focused upon changing the object of lust (i.e. women). The problem with this is that is doesn't work.

Jesus' solution to the problem of lust is much stronger and much more radical. His advice for men struggling with lust is to undergo a radical assessement of our own contribution to the problem. He advises merciless self discipline and inner mortification of sin. So much so that he says we have to be so serious about it that it can be compared to self-mutilation.

Lust is an inner condition according to Jesus. He does not blame the woman; he blames the man.

[ 05. December 2005, 18:51: Message edited by: m.t_tomb ]

Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Tabby Cat
Shipmate
# 4561

 - Posted      Profile for Tabby Cat     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Sorry LutheranChik, my post wasn't particularly aimed at you! But yes, I agree with you too. It's interesting that my idea of multiculturalism includes treating everybody the same under the law - so of course, as you say, crimes should be punished, with no excuse for the "culture" of the people involved. That's where we need to define terms, again, because some people seem to see multiculturalism as allowing or creating those excuses. (I think there are similar problems with the term "political correctness.")
Posts: 1063 | From: Paddling at the edge of the sea | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
R.A.M.
Shipmate
# 7390

 - Posted      Profile for R.A.M.   Email R.A.M.   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Multi-culturalism is an ideal, whereby the state acts to accomodate the cultural desires and needs of different groups, in such a way that does not impinge on the culture of another group. It assumes that a varieity of cultures and forms of expression are equally valid. However, in order for multi-culturalism to work there must be some sort of framework.

Most debates that involve multiculturalism, including this one are really a debate on to what the moral framework for society is.

Laura, like most of us, takes it as given that a respect for women as full citizens with equal rights should be part of the framework. What She observes is that a desire to accomodate Islamic culture has lead to this being compromised.

What I see is a desire, in the name of multiculturalism, not to interfere with islamic family life. This is all very well, BUT the framework is compromised and women are being oppressed. I would first of all advocate a position whereby the British state is not afraid to interfere with Family life(and by extension community life; I would strongly advocate a lot of checking up on schools) in any case where oppresion of either women, children or indeed anyone is a potential problem.

There are many forms this could take, MP for Keighley (South?) Ann Cryer is a proponant of compulsary English lessons; the theory being that an inability to speak proper English is one way in which newly migrated women can be subjegated. In Bradford there are a number of projects that seek to deal with problems of domestic violence, but they are often starved of funds. These projects can only ever take a fairly piecemeal approach anyway.

--------------------
Formerly Real Ale Methodist
Back after prolonged absence...

Posts: 1584 | From: (Sunshine on) Leith | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
ananke
Shipmate
# 10059

 - Posted      Profile for ananke   Email ananke   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm on board with the equal application of laws. Recently in Oz we had a 14 year old girl raped repeatedly by her promised 'husband' of fifty-something in order to teach her a lesson about something or other. His excuse was that in his culture (Central Indigenous Australia) it was perfectly okay.

It isn't. Neither is locking up your children for years, beating them, raping them or allowing them to be raped. Simple as that. I dislike the equation of the hijab with submission to men though.

All the girls I speak to (and for me) any covering of the hair is a matter of personal comfort and submission to God. Yes there is a large portion of society that mandates modesty in reaction to lustful men (just take a look at almost any discussion about rape and see how far we've gotten). But to unequivocably damn the hijab only reinforces the ideas of women submitting to society in all forms of bodly expression and denies a whole sector of society the comfort they find in modesty.

--------------------
...and I bear witness, this grace, this prayer so long forgotten.

A Perfect Circle - Magdalena

Posts: 617 | From: australia | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826

 - Posted      Profile for LutheranChik   Author's homepage   Email LutheranChik   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Ananke: Then are you also suggesting that men, who are equally called to obedience to God, covertheir heads? If not, why not?

--------------------
Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com

Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Louise
Shipmate
# 30

 - Posted      Profile for Louise   Email Louise   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Ananke,
I don't know if you're referring to me but I am not talking about merely covering hair, I'm talking about niqabs and burqahs in schools - these are garments which cover the face, anonymising women and in the case of Afghani burqahs seriously impairing their vision (and I have explicitly made the distinction between these extreme forms and headscarves twice now). These forms of face coverings are nowhere mandated for men in Islam. They are purely sexist and they and the severe codes of behaviour that go along with them help to anonymise and isolate women in the community at large making them easier to efface and exploit.

L.

[ 05. December 2005, 23:33: Message edited by: Louise ]

--------------------
Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.

Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881

 - Posted      Profile for Soror Magna   Email Soror Magna   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
...

Here is what hijab suggests:

Women are "temptresses" from whose appearance pious men must be protected;

Women are chattel, or at least incompetent persons needing (male) guardianship, and "covering" is primarily about protecting the proprietary interests of fathers/brothers/husbands.

Men are brainless beasts who aren't even capable of looking at a woman's hair without going out of control, like dogs in an alley...and, for some reason, this is seen as the women's burden.

So it's not just about wearing a scarf. You have to think of the why .

Thanks for that, LutheranChik. That pretty much summarizes my own "unpacking" of the custom. However, (and this is NOT directed specifically at LutheranChik - you just worded it best!), is Christianity historically and doctrinally in a good position to argue these points with Islam? One can find support for and expression of these ideas both in Scripture and in the history of the Christian faith. For example, it's now the 21st century and there are still 17 pages of discussion in Dead Horses about "Priestly Genitalia". Isn't it fair to say that the recognition of women as full persons in the Christian faith happened partly because of the influx of secular, Enlightenment ideas?

Perhaps the collision between the Enlightenment and Islam is happening right now - it's just hard to see because it is mixed up with a lot of other political and economic factors and it is unfolding in real time. OliviaG

--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826

 - Posted      Profile for LutheranChik   Author's homepage   Email LutheranChik   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Olivia: I was thinking the same thing at times...maybe it's because I belong to a socially progressive denomination and congregation that both affirm gender-equity, but some of the gender-role discussions here on the Ship just curl my (extremely short and uncovered) hair. [Eek!]

--------------------
Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com

Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
the_raptor
Shipmate
# 10533

 - Posted      Profile for the_raptor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
I think the relativism here which would equate wearing school uniforms with forcing girls into marriage at 13 is pretty scary. I'm also not interested in "but your society tells women they need to wear high heels and makeup" sort of thing, because it's bullshit. The social cost of not wearing high heels or makeup (which I do not do and it has not affected my personal success in life) is nothing at all to the very real cost of the Muslim girl's refusal to toe the line in the situations described which can result in death.

Right and you are completely ignoring the fact that in most western countries women can be arrested for simply exposing their nipples while it is fine for men to do the same (The Janet Jackson wardrobe malfunction comes to mind). Or you can end up as a registered sex offender for simply urinating against a tree on public land in the middle of the night.

These are real life destroying punishments, for very minor "crimes", that western culture is quite happy to impose.

[ 06. December 2005, 01:45: Message edited by: the_raptor ]

--------------------
Mal: look at this! Appears we got here just in the nick of time. What does that make us?
Zoe: Big damn heroes, sir!
Mal: Ain't we just?
— Firefly

Posts: 3921 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Laura
General nuisance
# 10

 - Posted      Profile for Laura   Email Laura   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
I think the relativism here which would equate wearing school uniforms with forcing girls into marriage at 13 is pretty scary. I'm also not interested in "but your society tells women they need to wear high heels and makeup" sort of thing, because it's bullshit. The social cost of not wearing high heels or makeup (which I do not do and it has not affected my personal success in life) is nothing at all to the very real cost of the Muslim girl's refusal to toe the line in the situations described which can result in death.

Right and you are completely ignoring the fact that in most western countries women can be arrested for simply exposing their nipples while it is fine for men to do the same (The Janet Jackson wardrobe malfunction comes to mind). Or you can end up as a registered sex offender for simply urinating against a tree on public land in the middle of the night.

These are real life destroying punishments for very minor "crimes", that western culture is quite happy to impose.

You seem to be arguing from what must be a very small sample of injustices in the West that we should not prevent injustices among us. That the very occasional arrest for breastfeeding is equivalent to an honor killing for refusing to submit to parental demands that you marry at 13 and wear a hijab or burqua.

The difference is that breastfeeding is widely accepted and recommended by the health establishment AND if a woman is arrested (as does happen periodically) within minutes there is a huge outcry, a nurse-in is organized so that hundreds of women are breastfeeding in the offending establishment or park, and then shortly after, an apology from the embarassed chief of police. This is miles away from forcing a 13 year old to marry or paying an Islamist teacher state money to teach that this is good.

The issue of sexual offender registers deserves its own thread, but I don't see its relevance here. I very much doubt that there are very many people on the offender registers for public urination. I do take issue with such registration for 18 year old having sex with a 16 year old girlfriend, but surely this is a matter to pursue in the legislature -- which you can do, because you are not a 14 year old Muslim girl.

--------------------
Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
the_raptor
Shipmate
# 10533

 - Posted      Profile for the_raptor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
You seem to be arguing from what must be a very small sample of injustices in the West that we should not prevent injustices among us. That the very occasional arrest for breastfeeding is equivalent to an honor killing for refusing to submit to parental demands that you marry at 13 and wear a hijab or burqua.

Oh yes because honor killings and underage marriage happen all the time in western society. [Roll Eyes]

I mean the law just doesn't apply to those damn muslims, it is sick how they get away with it and it doesn't even make the news. Oh wait a minute you are reflecting the crimes commited by muslims in third world countries onto muslims who have lived their whole lives in western society.

And we are so superior to them because Christians in third world countries never have cultural practices that are utterly repugnant. There are no countries where Christians practice underage marriage. Oh wait, there are those fundie mormon cults in Utah that do just that, and also practice bigamy. And we musn't forget that some African christians think that female genital mutilation is a jolly good idea.

Of course "honour" killings are abhorent, and so is underage marriage. But don't go trying to make it appear as a problem that is indemic in western muslims, or that many Christians sects don't promote equally abhorent practices (All those fundie Catholics that want women pregnant and in the kitchen). The west does *not* have the moral high ground, anyone who thinks otherwise is ignorant. The problem is cultures, not religions.

quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
The issue of sexual offender registers deserves its own thread, but I don't see its relevance here. I very much doubt that there are very many people on the offender registers for public urination. I do take issue with such registration for 18 year old having sex with a 16 year old girlfriend, but surely this is a matter to pursue in the legislature -- which you can do, because you are not a 14 year old Muslim girl.

You would be surprised. And no I can't pursue it in the legislature, because voters are wired to have knee jerk reactions as soon as you say the word "sex offender".

--------------------
Mal: look at this! Appears we got here just in the nick of time. What does that make us?
Zoe: Big damn heroes, sir!
Mal: Ain't we just?
— Firefly

Posts: 3921 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472

 - Posted      Profile for Augustine the Aleut     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Definitionophiliacs might take comfort in the only official definitions of multiculturalism which I could find. The first is in the 1989 Canadian Multiculturalism Act, calling it, among other things:
quote:
3.1.c (c) the full and equitable participation of individuals and communities of all origins in the continuing evolution and shaping of all aspects of Canadian society and assist them in the elimination of any barrier to that participation.
The Australian definition I found is by the way of a recommended definition in a 1999 Report which sez (this one's longer)
quote:
Australian multiculturalism is a term which recognises and celebrates Australia’s cultural diversity. It accepts and respects the right of all Australians to express and share their individual cultural heritage within an overriding commitment to Australia and the basic structures and values of Australian democracy. It also refers to the strategies, policies and programs that are designed to:
make our administrative, social and economic infrastructure more responsive to the rights, obligations and needs of our culturally diverse population;
promote social harmony among the different cultural groups in our society;
optimise the benefits of our cultural diversity for all Australians.

While Australian multiculturalism values and celebrates diversity, it is not an ‘anything goes’ concept since it is built on core societal values of mutual respect, tolerance and harmony, the rule of law and our democratic principles and institutions. It is also based on an overriding commitment to Australia.

Of course, one of my policy colleagues noted that most Canadians called the bits of multiculturalism they didn't like: "official multiculturalism," and the bits which they quite liked: "just being Canadian."
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
whitelaughter
Shipmate
# 10611

 - Posted      Profile for whitelaughter   Email whitelaughter   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
People harp on about all the freedom we enjoy in western society, but in reality it is very restraining unless you want to be an outcast.

Whoopie skip. Yes, if you break the social norms, you'll loose the 'respect' of the self-declared 'respectable people'. Yes, there are all sorts of stunts people can play to try and get you to do what they want. And telling them to get stuffed will hurt. But in the West *it won't get you killed, or locked up for years, or pack raped*. If you've got a minimum of guts, you can go your own way here. That's not an option for these girls.
Posts: 114 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826

 - Posted      Profile for LutheranChik   Author's homepage   Email LutheranChik   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Exactly. I find the moral equation of hormone-addled teenagers' pecking-order rituals with the very real dangers girls and women in fundamentalist-Islamist communities face in defying male authority bizarre, to say the least.

--------------------
Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com

Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
the_raptor
Shipmate
# 10533

 - Posted      Profile for the_raptor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by whitelaughter:
quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
People harp on about all the freedom we enjoy in western society, but in reality it is very restraining unless you want to be an outcast.

Whoopie skip. Yes, if you break the social norms, you'll loose the 'respect' of the self-declared 'respectable people'. Yes, there are all sorts of stunts people can play to try and get you to do what they want. And telling them to get stuffed will hurt. But in the West *it won't get you killed, or locked up for years, or pack raped*. If you've got a minimum of guts, you can go your own way here. That's not an option for these girls.
Please read what else I have posted. There are plenty of ways to get locked up for years, for doing nothing more then flashing a bit of skin (walk into a school yard naked, see how quickly you end up charged as a sex offender) or hurting no one but yourself. Im sure society would collapse if they didn't lock up all those people who got caught with a few grams of a mild intoxicant.

--------------------
Mal: look at this! Appears we got here just in the nick of time. What does that make us?
Zoe: Big damn heroes, sir!
Mal: Ain't we just?
— Firefly

Posts: 3921 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
the_raptor
Shipmate
# 10533

 - Posted      Profile for the_raptor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Exactly. I find the moral equation of hormone-addled teenagers' pecking-order rituals with the very real dangers girls and women in fundamentalist-Islamist communities face in defying male authority bizarre, to say the least.

You can replace Islamist with Christian, and I could find you a bunch of communities were that statement would be true.

--------------------
Mal: look at this! Appears we got here just in the nick of time. What does that make us?
Zoe: Big damn heroes, sir!
Mal: Ain't we just?
— Firefly

Posts: 3921 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
whitelaughter
Shipmate
# 10611

 - Posted      Profile for whitelaughter   Email whitelaughter   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
Why is it that when the OP focusses on child abuse, segregation, and womens' rights the thread degenerates into the hijab issue? [Mad] How are we going to deal with this unless we face it?

Why? Because child abuse etc happens behind closed doors; people see the clothing every day.
How are we going to deal with it? I gave up hope long ago. 'The right of privacy' is an insurmountable obstacle; as long as people have the right and power to hide crimes, those crimes will continue, and continue unpunished. And even if we did catch them, do the math: 1/3 children are abused, each molestor rapes an average of 9 kids, that's 1/27th of the population are child molestors. And that's just one brand of criminal! We can't build enough jails, won't get the support for mass executions, can't reform more than a handful. Hopeless (and then consider their power as a voting block in politics). Which is another reason for focusing on specific groups: in theory, we could probably deal with crime in one or two minority groups.

On a brighter note, anyone wanting to break the cultural baggage related to burkha/veils etc should consider Ataturk's trick: he made it compulsory for prostitutes to wear veils. That made *not* wearing a veil a sign of modesty - and women can play the two competing forms of modesty off against each other to gain actual choice.

Posts: 114 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Louise
Shipmate
# 30

 - Posted      Profile for Louise   Email Louise   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
You seem to be arguing from what must be a very small sample of injustices in the West that we should not prevent injustices among us. That the very occasional arrest for breastfeeding is equivalent to an honor killing for refusing to submit to parental demands that you marry at 13 and wear a hijab or burqua.

Oh yes because honor killings and underage marriage happen all the time in western society. [Roll Eyes]


At least a thousand forced marriages in the UK alone every year. Honour killings run about 12 a year (those that are detected, that is) but more may have been overlooked because the police previously weren't aware of the issue.There have been six such killings in five months in Berlin alone this year, in the Turkish community, not surprising, sadly, given attitudes like these.

It might help to educate yourself about some of these problems in Europe and to stop setting up an army of straw-man positions held by no-one on this thread. Sadly these problems are indeed endemic in some communities, the question is what can be done to help and what well-intentioned efforts might be making things worse? Maybe you'd like to address that instead of ranting about positions Laura has never held and which anyone who's hung about a bit on this board knows she isn't likely to hold in a million years.

L.

--------------------
Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.

Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
gbuchanan
Shipmate
# 415

 - Posted      Profile for gbuchanan   Email gbuchanan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
I mean the law just doesn't apply to those damn muslims, it is sick how they get away with it and it doesn't even make the news. Oh wait a minute you are reflecting the crimes commited by muslims in third world countries onto muslims who have lived their whole lives in western society.

Erm, being a teency bit pedantic, in UK terms, honour killings actually are a bit of an issue. A couple of years back, we had over 100 suspected unresolved cases over a 10 year span, and the last time I checked we are convicting at the rate of 10 or so a year for murder or attempted murder where "honour" was a factor, so that would suggest somewhere between (say) one or two a month. In UK terms, that's a significant proportion of murder in the country. I don't know the US statistics, but I know in Germany that honour killings make the muslim population per se over represented in the murder rates considering their numbers. Now, colour me stupid, but that seems rather scary to me.

Returning to some earlier comments on Germany, I've lived there, and I know people who live in Kreuzberg in Berlin, where there's a strong Muslim communiity. There certainly are problems with the Gastarbeiter status of many, but the issues of achievement in society are much more complex. For example, the complexities of academic achievement and ethnicity really cloud the issue - is the high rate of Muslim women withdrawing from the school system when compared with their men a "German" issue? Likewise, the pressure on younger men from immigrant communities to enter early into the workforce doesn't help theiir long-term achievement. I've faced many of those issues in London in the UK. Some ethnicities outperform "indigenous" families - others don't. Why is that?

In the UK families from some predominantly Muslim countries perform better than average white caucasians at school/university, whilst other countries do badly (e.g. Pakistan versus Bangladesh). Interestingly, there's a correspondence between the performance of those "incoming" countries and their economic success across Europe. Though I acknowledge many groups feel disadvantaged, I think the disadvantage is at least partially self-fulfilled (though France is actually a problem it seems).

Anyhow, all too complex for one post!

Posts: 683 | From: London, UK | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

 - Posted      Profile for mdijon     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
(*) Not if by "hijab" you mean the whole system of covering up and sequestration of women practiced in some places (not, for what its worth, in most or Turkey or that much among the Turks who live in London - maybe they are a different sort than the ones in Germany) That's a very different thing from just wearing a headscarf.

No, I didn't mean that. It wouldn't have occured to me to describe that kind of extreme practice as "hijab". Mainly because most of the muslims I know who wear the hijab don't practice that..... it seems to go along with the burka and veil.

I really think the hijab can be worn by confident, outgoing mulsim women. In fact, I know some. And I think muslim dress/culture/practice needs to be differntiated from the extreme sequestering and domination of women that also goes on. Else this becomes one culture imposing it's views wholesale on another - and it should be (and I maintain can be) one culture holding another to account under universal standards.

--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

 - Posted      Profile for mdijon     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
At least a thousand forced marriages in the UK alone every year.

I don't know if that's true. The link says 1000 marriages to partners "chosen by parents" which may not be the same thing. I have some quite educated, independantly thinking colleagues who, after playing the dating game for a while, have opted for an arranged marriage. The process is by discussion with parents, a brief meeting is arranged, the prospective partners give their parents their views.... and then go ahead or don't go ahead.

Which may not be our way of doing things, but isn't a human rights issue.

I agree, of course, that forced marriages do occur, and are an abuse of human rights.... I just think they might not run into the 1,000's.

--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

 - Posted      Profile for mdijon     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Definitionophiliacs might take comfort in the only official definitions of multiculturalism which I could find......Of course, one of my policy colleagues noted that most Canadians called the bits of multiculturalism they didn't like: "official multiculturalism," and the bits which they quite liked: "just being Canadian."

Sorry, missed this first time through. Thank you, definitionophiliac present and satisfied.

I can't think what aspect of that process, as defined, causes us to ignore honour killings. (I wish we had a different word to describe them, come to think of it.)

I think your last sentance is telling though. Multiculturalism becomes a label like "political correctness", the bogeyman representing left wing, lilly-livered pandering, to be blamed for all ills.

The specific danger of that, however, is that when someone like me hears multiculturalism taking the blame for such events, it sounds to us like racial scape-goating... I hear it as "the presence of other cultures, equal rights and acceptance" being blamed for atrocity.

Rather like the rallying call of the far right.

--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373

 - Posted      Profile for Rat   Email Rat   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by gbuchanan:
Though I acknowledge many groups feel disadvantaged, I think the disadvantage is at least partially self-fulfilled (though France is actually a problem it seems).

I know I am being guilty of extrapolation from a single experience here, but from what I have heard people may be right to think that Germany is also a problem.

A British Asian friend of mine who lived and worked in Germany had a very difficult time when she split up from her (White British) husband. She found it extremely difficult to find a place to live on her own and was confronted over and over again with quite blatant comments such as 'the flat isn't available to coloured people, we thought you were British', and 'you never said on the phone you were coloured'. She was very distressed by this.

It wound up - despite her being a relatively high earner - that the only place she could find was in basically an Asian ghetto, one-and-a-half steps above a slum. She came home shortly afterwards.

I know I shouldn't tarnish an entire country with one person's bad experience, but equally I think you'd have difficulty describing her experience as 'partially self-fulfilled'. There seems to be sufficient evidence to suppose that integration difficulties in Germany are not one-sided.

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
The link says 1000 marriages to partners "chosen by parents" which may not be the same thing. I have some quite educated, independantly thinking colleagues who, after playing the dating game for a while, have opted for an arranged marriage. The process is by discussion with parents, a brief meeting is arranged, the prospective partners give their parents their views.... and then go ahead or don't go ahead.

Which may not be our way of doing things, but isn't a human rights issue.


This is also my experience. I know several educated, working Asians, male and female, living independently who have either opted voluntarily for arranged marriage or have discussed the possibility with their parents and at length decided against it. This makes me uncomfortable when arranged marriage and forced marriage are equated.

Forced marriage, 'honour' killing, imprisonment, etc are of course crimes. And I've never heard of a defintion of multiculturalism that allows anyone to be above the law. If these crimes are not being detected or prosecuted then this strikes me as a failure of policing rather than of multiculturalism.

--------------------
It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]

Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Callan
Shipmate
# 525

 - Posted      Profile for Callan     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Originally posted by m.t_tomb:

quote:
I think it's because Islam doesn't have much concept of interior mortification of sin. The awareness of an inner condition of sinfulness (which is universal to humanity) has led, in some expressions of Islam, to the practice of extreme projection. So - in the case of hijab - instead of dealing with subject of lust (i.e men) Sharia law has focused upon changing the object of lust (i.e. women). The problem with this is that is doesn't work.

Jesus' solution to the problem of lust is much stronger and much more radical. His advice for men struggling with lust is to undergo a radical assessement of our own contribution to the problem. He advises merciless self discipline and inner mortification of sin. So much so that he says we have to be so serious about it that it can be compared to self-mutilation.

Lust is an inner condition according to Jesus. He does not blame the woman; he blames the man.

Muslims are hardly the only religious group with dress codes. St Paul instructs women to cover their heads during divine worship and to dress modestly. For that matter in Calvin's Geneva women were imprisoned for wearing improper hats. Which suggests that like Dosteovsky's Grand Inquisitor later Christians abandoned our Lord's radicalism for a disciplinary conservatism. Contemporary freedom in these matters owes very little to Christianity.

It should also be remembered that the hijab et. al. are symbols of status. As Gellner points out, the idea that the hijab should be normative for women is of fairly recent origin. Muslim women of previous generations left such things to their betters. A woman who wears the hijab is not necessarily saying: "I am inferior to you" to a man. She may well be saying: "I am equal to you" to another woman. In an immigrant context she may be saying: "I am not a sex object like you" to a native woman - it is hardly unprecendented for marginalised groups to compensate themselves by congratulating themselves on their superior virtue. Quite simply if you want to know how to read religious and cultural activities you need to take some effort to undertand the motivation of the participants.

--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Littlelady
Shipmate
# 9616

 - Posted      Profile for Littlelady     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rat:
Forced marriage, 'honour' killing, imprisonment, etc are of course crimes. And I've never heard of a defintion of multiculturalism that allows anyone to be above the law. If these crimes are not being detected or prosecuted then this strikes me as a failure of policing rather than of multiculturalism.

I agree with this. The crimes need to be separated from the faith/culture, otherwise no progress is going to be made.

--------------------
'When ideas fail, words come in very handy' ~ Goethe

Posts: 3737 | From: home of the best Rugby League team in the universe | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

 - Posted      Profile for Karl: Liberal Backslider   Author's homepage   Email Karl: Liberal Backslider   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
WL:

quote:
1/3 children are abused, each molestor rapes an average of 9 kids, that's 1/27th of the population are child molestors.
Are you really claiming that one person in 27 is a child rapist who has raped on average nine children?

Where does your figure of 1 in 3 abused come from, and does that mean every abuse is a rape?

Something's wrong with your figure here. Anyone have a comment?

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Matt Black

Shipmate
# 2210

 - Posted      Profile for Matt Black   Email Matt Black   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'd like to see a source for those stats.

--------------------
"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

 - Posted      Profile for Karl: Liberal Backslider   Author's homepage   Email Karl: Liberal Backslider   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think WL has made two fallacious equations:

Abuse = Sexual Abuse

and

Sexual Abuse = Rape

But we'll need to know where his figures come from to confirm that.

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Peronel

The typo slayer
# 569

 - Posted      Profile for Peronel   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I've certainly come across the one in three children are abused figure before. IIRC, it comes from the National Incidence Study of Child Abuse and Neglect, although I haven't a link to show that.

iirc, it counts "sexual abuse" as any unwanted sexual or intimate contact between adult and child or child and child, intentional or not. So stumbling on your parents porn stash could in theory be abuse by that definition. Certainly a fair chunk of playground bullying could be categorised so.

I'm emphatically not saying that such contacts are harmless, but neither are they all child rape.

Who was it who said there are lies, damn lies, and statistics?

Peronel.

--------------------
Lord, I have sinned, and mine iniquity.
Deserves this hell; yet Lord deliver me.

Posts: 2367 | From: A self-inflicted exile | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
the_raptor
Shipmate
# 10533

 - Posted      Profile for the_raptor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
It might help to educate yourself about some of these problems in Europe and to stop setting up an army of straw-man positions held by no-one on this thread.

Oh yes Ye Olde Strawmen. No one at all in this thread is equating Islam with repressive cultural practices, and ignoring that those same practices are still done by Christains in some parts of the world. The very fact that people keep blaming Islam for these barbaric practices tells me that I am not attacking strawmen. The problem is with some Islamic influenced cultures, and not with Islam.

You have posted on this thread equating the veil with these repressive *cultural* practices (and you said religious instead of cultural). So I think it is you who has a problem with strawmen. The big bad muslim isn't coming to take your freedom away, people who identify as Christians are the ones intent on doing that (for the children of course). And this thread seems full of holier-then-thou westerners talking down to Muslims. I enjoy humbling the self-righteous.

I also enjoy how you never want to deal with the fact that women can be arrested in western society for showing less skin then an ankle (a nipple to be precise).

quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
Sadly these problems are indeed endemic in some communities, the question is what can be done to help and what well-intentioned efforts might be making things worse?

What you mean like reporting anyone I suspect of these crimes and seeing that the police does persecute them? Oh and not alienating muslims such that they prefer to stay in their own ghetto, and not mix with the infidel that seems intent on destroying their religious practices, thus never adapting to our culture?

quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
Maybe you'd like to address that instead of ranting about positions Laura has never held and which anyone who's hung about a bit on this board knows she isn't likely to hold in a million years.

L.

Oh I see I need a post-graduate degree in "Laura's thoughts and views on Islam" before I post on this thread?

--------------------
Mal: look at this! Appears we got here just in the nick of time. What does that make us?
Zoe: Big damn heroes, sir!
Mal: Ain't we just?
— Firefly

Posts: 3921 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Matt Black

Shipmate
# 2210

 - Posted      Profile for Matt Black   Email Matt Black   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Hmmm...it would appear therefore that the devil is not so much in the detail as in the definition. If accidentally leaving our bottom stairgate open so that the Blacket crawls up two stairs and then takes a tumble constitutes neglect and/ or abuse, then I guess he falls within the 1 in 3.

[cross-posted with The raptor]

[ 06. December 2005, 10:16: Message edited by: Matt Black ]

--------------------
"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

 - Posted      Profile for Karl: Liberal Backslider   Author's homepage   Email Karl: Liberal Backslider   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Or happening to see a grown man having a slash; that would appear to count by that definition.

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
the_raptor
Shipmate
# 10533

 - Posted      Profile for the_raptor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Or happening to see a grown man having a slash; that would appear to count by that definition.

Which was why I was mentioning people getting put on sex offender registers for urinating against a tree/wall in a public park. In many places there doesn't even have to be anyone around (apart from a camera) for you to get in trouble.

--------------------
Mal: look at this! Appears we got here just in the nick of time. What does that make us?
Zoe: Big damn heroes, sir!
Mal: Ain't we just?
— Firefly

Posts: 3921 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Matt Black

Shipmate
# 2210

 - Posted      Profile for Matt Black   Email Matt Black   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Or happening to see a grown man having a slash; that would appear to count by that definition.

In that case I abused my son this morning - someone call social services [Paranoid]

--------------------
"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

 - Posted      Profile for ken     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
I also enjoy how you never want to deal with the fact that women can be arrested in western society for showing less skin then an ankle (a nipple to be precise).

Which "western society" is this? Not England. Or France. Or Italy. The last time I saw someone breast-feed in public was the day before yesterday. And there are pictures of women with no tops on in our daily newspapers, and on advertising posters.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Littlelady
Shipmate
# 9616

 - Posted      Profile for Littlelady     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Which "western society" is this? Not England. Or France. Or Italy. The last time I saw someone breast-feed in public was the day before yesterday. And there are pictures of women with no tops on in our daily newspapers, and on advertising posters.

I don't think a woman could walk down a street anywhere in the UK showing her nipples without drawing the attention of the police and inviting a nifty 'indecent exposure' charge possibly followed by a night in police cell. Somehow.

[ 06. December 2005, 11:56: Message edited by: Littlelady ]

--------------------
'When ideas fail, words come in very handy' ~ Goethe

Posts: 3737 | From: home of the best Rugby League team in the universe | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Matt Black

Shipmate
# 2210

 - Posted      Profile for Matt Black   Email Matt Black   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Context is everything...

--------------------
"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

 - Posted      Profile for Karl: Liberal Backslider   Author's homepage   Email Karl: Liberal Backslider   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Or happening to see a grown man having a slash; that would appear to count by that definition.

In that case I abused my son this morning - someone call social services [Paranoid]
I'll put you down for the next mass execution [Biased]

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
the_raptor
Shipmate
# 10533

 - Posted      Profile for the_raptor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Or happening to see a grown man having a slash; that would appear to count by that definition.

In that case I abused my son this morning - someone call social services [Paranoid]
I'll put you down for the next mass execution [Biased]
I thought they were phasing those out in favour of DIY, for budgetry reaons?

--------------------
Mal: look at this! Appears we got here just in the nick of time. What does that make us?
Zoe: Big damn heroes, sir!
Mal: Ain't we just?
— Firefly

Posts: 3921 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
gbuchanan
Shipmate
# 415

 - Posted      Profile for gbuchanan   Email gbuchanan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rat:
It wound up - despite her being a relatively high earner - that the only place she could find was in basically an Asian ghetto, one-and-a-half steps above a slum. She came home shortly afterwards.

I know I shouldn't tarnish an entire country with one person's bad experience, but equally I think you'd have difficulty describing her experience as 'partially self-fulfilled'. There seems to be sufficient evidence to suppose that integration difficulties in Germany are not one-sided.

Errm, I don't think that I suggested that - somehow I think making the jump from a general observation (mine) to a specific case (yours) is disengenuous at least, if not downright intellectually dishonest. Are there racists in Germany? Sure, however there are also in the UK, and I (as someone from Ireland) have certainly experienced racism in the UK. However, suggesting that there is systematic racism in Germany doesn't tally with the facts. If the housing was being let through an agent, in fact the comments being made against your friend were illegal in Germany.

Your example certainly provides no refutation whatsoever that (at the big picture level) the problems of integration and economic opportunity are at least partially caused by cultural issues. For example, how come in Germany and the UK those from an east Asian background (china, japan) outperform their white peers, whilst those from a southern Asian background do worse; or that those with origins from Mumbai and its neighbourhoods do comparably with ethnic whites whilst those from Bengal on average do much worse?

I've lead multi-racial teams in Germany (Bonn and Braunschweig) and the UK (Birmingham and London). On average, I'd say the negative experiences in each were about the same (and sadly present). Actually, the worst was definitely Birmingham, where the sort of scenario you described in Germany was met several times.

When it comes to weird-hats and Germany, a family friend worked in British schools in Germany, and one landlord turned out to have bought the farm she rented because he'd killed an american soldier there when fighting as a 14 year old in 1944. However, I'd have to go a long way to suggest from that that Germany is endemically Nazi.

Anyhow, where did I suggest that all problems of integration were one sided? When it comes to deciding to pull out of the education system to earn money to send "back home" sooner, sorry but that's not the fault of U.K. Plc or Deutschland GmBH. Strangely, this affects your long-term earning potential. However, negative stereotyping leading to being denied equal treatment for renting, doing business, etc. - is that the fault of the victims? Of course not!

I've worked with six Turkish-origin German PhD's, and they're at least as successful as the German ones. They do share something in common though - their Turkish families are professional, urban families. Go down the back end of Kreuzberg's unemployment dives, and the Turks there generally come from remote rural areas of Turkey. The talk about the rise of "middle class reactionary" Turks is itself a gross simplification - what you're seeing is the "rich Turk trash" perpetuate its values. These folks are generally from poorer Turkish backgrounds made good, not from the long established professional communities. (And yes, before someone makes it out, there ARE some exceptions both ways - Duh!)...

Frankly, I think that it isn't Islam per se that is the problem, but reactionary groups who have partially isolated themselves from the opportunity of progressing (poor education) yet covet the success of others and similarly condemn it for tempting their families away from "tradition" who use it as a pillar of defence. However, I do believe that I've seen the same in white "christians" too. Whatever form it takes, this sort of cycle isn't broken by laws, condemnation or the like. It takes time and a commitment to be fair and to be seen to be fair, AND the push to keep the children in education so that they CAN succeed. However, even then a bitter few will always remain I thin and sometimes that means fighting stereotypes and restrictions within those communities (often particularly for women).

Posts: 683 | From: London, UK | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Louise
Shipmate
# 30

 - Posted      Profile for Louise   Email Louise   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I have responded to The Raptor's outpourings in Hell.

L.

--------------------
Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.

Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Laura
General nuisance
# 10

 - Posted      Profile for Laura   Email Laura   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Raptor:

As I had hoped was clear from my OP, I am specifically talking about (and only talking about on this thread) injustices perpetrated against Muslim women who are living in Western First World democracies such as US, UK and Germany. We are in a much better position to do something about injustices within our midst. Not to say we should not continue to fuss about human rights issues on an international level. but it seems an especial shame to permit abuses that no western woman would be expected to tolerate to essentially be protected here in the US or in the UK

[ 06. December 2005, 14:13: Message edited by: Laura ]

--------------------
Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Callan
Shipmate
# 525

 - Posted      Profile for Callan     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Originally posted by gbuchanan:

quote:
However, suggesting that there is systematic racism in Germany doesn't tally with the facts. If the housing was being let through an agent, in fact the comments being made against your friend were illegal in Germany.
Oddly enough, honour killing is illegal in Germany as well. The fact that there are laws against racism in Germany rather suggests that it is a problem which the German government is trying to deal with rather than a problem which Germany has solved.

--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools