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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: "Spiritual Growth”
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
This is where the thread started: quote:
How you grow spiritually? What disciplines/practices help you connect to God/Jesus? How does one stay fresh and vibrant in faith without becoming a legalist?
Is anyone else sad that what should have been a positive exchange of helpful ideas has degenerated into spiritual name calling? And now threatens to become yet another discussion of Calvinism? Or is it only me?
(If folk want to discuss the particular Calvinist interpretation of Scripture that abolishes all Biblical reference to free will could they please start a separate thread? I can't see that it fits in with the remit of this thread at all, and it would be good to get back on course.)
[ 08. December 2005, 09:24: Message edited by: The Wanderer ]
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
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GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
I saw Adam's reference to this earlier. I am not as familiar with the Lutheran-RC dialogues but they are a step forward in conversation, not the final word, that much is clear.
I have read and studied the ARCIC documents and they seem to me to be trading in ambiguity to establish their point. Again, it is very clear from their self-description that they are part of an ongoing conversation; that is all.
It occurs to me that this is always the case. No two people believe precisely the same things because our beliefs are so coloured by our experiences and so on, so open to examination from different angles.
I've heard the story that the then Cardinal Ratzinger had to stomp on a couple of officials who wanted to add something at the last minute to clarify the Catholic position on justification by faith, which would have wrecked it. Those who would do this have clearly mistaken the purpose of a joint declaration - it is to express unity as far as it can be expressed, and in some way analogous to the action of a sacrament perhaps begin to bring it about.
I suspect you're not into creeds much, but I think you can see that some clauses such as one baptism for the forgiveness of sins is interpreted in a subtly different way according to the theological position of the person reciting the Creed. That's fair enough, to my mind.
Where ARCIC has problems, is that modern Anglicanism (and I would argue, Anglicanism since the Reformation) is too broad to be able to make significant joint declarations beyond the Creed. Any ARCIC document is just about certain to upset a large section of the Anglican Communion, even though they're in communion with large numbers of people that believe what it says already. This isn't the case with the Lutherans and the Catholics.
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humblebum
Shipmate
# 4358
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Posted
Ho hum - I can think of a hundred and one more interesting things to do than splitting hairs over the canons of the Council of Trent. ![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
Somebody wake me up whenever the discussion gets past the sifting through of centuries-old polemic.
In the meantime...
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
quote:
Originally posted by humblebum:
If this is true, then there's more to the process of applying God's Word to your life than the act of listening or reading.
Not in my view, as far as it concerns knowledge of God. We can't have true knowledge of God without putting our trust in him. It goes with the nature of God, and the nature of being human. Knowledge of God without accompanying trust in that knowledge is no knowledge at all, as I believe the passage you quoted from James demonstrates.
I am perplexed by your disagreement here, Gordon. I've read your paragraph several times over and I agree with it, but I can't see how it contradicts the point I made or supports the comment of "not in my view".
Let me try to understand your position here Gordon. I said that there's more to applying God's word to your life than the act of reading, and you replied "not in my view". So from this I conclude that your position is as follows:
- The human activity of listening to God's word (or in our case, reading God's word) is a spiritually valuable activity.
But - The human activity of thinking about what you've read or heard afterwards is an irrelevance, and not of any spiritual value.
And - The variety of human activities entailed in putting what we've heard into practice are also irrelevant, and not of any value either.
Is that correct?
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humblebum
Posts: 584 | From: Belfast | Registered: Apr 2003
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humblebum
Shipmate
# 4358
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Posted
{Incidentally Duo, many thanks for the background of the 'Christ centredness' of the rosary - I wasn't trying to articulate a critique, just give an honest appraisal of my own feelings of discomfort. I'm sure we could profitably discuss this further on another thread, but I wouldn't like to sidetrack this thread any further than it has already sidetracked itself.)
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humblebum
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humblebum
Shipmate
# 4358
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Posted
With apologies for triple-posting...
The expression of boredom in my previous post wasn't aimed at your comments GreyFace! Twas a cross-post, believe it or not...
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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humblebum
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
This is where the thread started: quote:
How you grow spiritually? What disciplines/practices help you connect to God/Jesus? How does one stay fresh and vibrant in faith without becoming a legalist?
Is anyone else sad that what should have been a positive exchange of helpful ideas has degenerated into spiritual name calling? And now threatens to become yet another discussion of Calvinism? Or is it only me?
No, it's not just you. At various points on the thread there have been pleas to return to the OP and I commented that Calvinism was the root of our our disagreement way back on the 21st Novemeber
quote:
(If folk want to discuss the particular Calvinist interpretation of Scripture that abolishes all Biblical reference to free will could they please start a separate thread? I can't see that it fits in with the remit of this thread at all, and it would be good to get back on course.)
There have been a few things on this thread which I have contemplated starting threads about but I'm struggling with OPs for them.
- Meditation, mantras and Mary (Actually I wanted to Meditation, mantras, the Rosary and the Jesus prayer, but the alliteration was lacking!) This comes out of my comment:
quote:
I am also intrigued by whether praying the Jesus prayer is using a mantra and indeed whether the Ave Maria is fulfilling a similar role in the Rosary, but I think exploration of those issues should be on a separate thread which I might start at some point.
- The heaping up of empty phrases (a Keryg thread) As I wrote:
quote:
[GC quoth:] quote:
The other point that I tried to make is that repetition can be meaningless, a heaping up of empty phrases.
I have already commented on the fact that I think you are using that phrase out of its proper context. Which translation is that btw? The NIV gives 'do not keep on babbling like pagans' and looking up the greek one finds that the verb in question is βαττoλoγησητε
which Perseus' cunning morphological anaylsis tool tells me comes from a verb which means
to speak stammeringly, say the same thing over and over again which I take to mean say the same thing over and over again on the same occasion whereas you seem to be talking about using the same words on different occasions.
- Gordon Cheng's pneumatology as expressed as
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
The Holy Ghost applies the word of the gospel to the heart and mind of the believer. He does not speak independently of Scripture, although I am not clear on the role of the Holy Spirit in revealing God through creation post-conversion. I am attracted by Karl Barth's position in Nein! but find him ultimately unpersuasive on this question. I have a few other theories but that is, perhaps, another thread.
- And something on Calvinism, Catholicism and Co-operation. But maybe that would be putting too many things together. The extent to which we are able to co-operate with God has been an underlying theme of this thread (because the idea of spiritual discipline implies so sort of co-operation), as has Calvinism and Catholicism has just come into, but would sticking all these elements together result in another monster thread?
What do people think about these as thread ideas? I think I'm going to go and start the Keryg thread because it's the one where I can see a sensible OP.
Carys
[code -- hope that makes things a bit clearer]
[ 08. December 2005, 22:20: Message edited by: John Holding ]
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
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GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
This is where the thread started: quote:
How you grow spiritually? What disciplines/practices help you connect to God/Jesus? How does one stay fresh and vibrant in faith without becoming a legalist?
Is anyone else sad that what should have been a positive exchange of helpful ideas has degenerated into spiritual name calling? And now threatens to become yet another discussion of Calvinism? Or is it only me?
No, it's not just you.
And I apologise for my contributions to the hijack, but the thread was essentially blown out of the water early on ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
This is where the thread started: quote:
How you grow spiritually? What disciplines/practices help you connect to God/Jesus? How does one stay fresh and vibrant in faith without becoming a legalist?
Is anyone else sad that what should have been a positive exchange of helpful ideas has degenerated into spiritual name calling? And now threatens to become yet another discussion of Calvinism? Or is it only me?
No, it's not just you.
And I apologise for my contributions to the hijack, but the thread was essentially blown out of the water early on
I've contributed to the hijack a lot myself and enjoyed much of the discussion, though part of me thinks that a more straight-forward suggestion thread was the original intent (when it was started in AS)
I have started a Keryg thread on `heaping up empty phrases
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
I ought to add my aplogies too, as I have done my share of sidetracking. Any chance we can get back on track, or shall we resolve to be more positive on the new threads Carys has started?
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
Hmm, OK, well I think that means my answer to Humblebum's question would become off limits. But, vociferous poster that I am...
quote:
Originally posted by humblebum:
Let me try to understand your position here Gordon. I said that there's more to applying God's word to your life than the act of reading, and you replied "not in my view". So from this I conclude that your position is as follows:
- The human activity of listening to God's word (or in our case, reading God's word) is a spiritually valuable activity.
Yes.
quote:
by humblebum:
- The human activity of thinking about what you've read or heard afterwards is an irrelevance, and not of any spiritual value.
No, no, no! Thinking about it afterwards is a divinely inspired and overseen activity, which generally appears to the one doing the thinking as a normal part of the process of reflection. I include the 'thinking' in the reading, otherwise we are no better (and probably worse) than a piece of OCR scanning software.
quote:
by humblebum:
- The variety of human activities entailed in putting what we've heard into practice are also irrelevant, and not of any value either.
No, they are inherent in correct reading of Scripture, as James has argued in the passage you cited. In this sense, Scripture is unapproachably unique. I know of no other text in human history where the Spirit of the Author indwells and vivifies the hearer to provide regeneration, comprehension, insight, reflection, and application of truth to life. Of course, it is possible to read Scripture with dead eyes as mere print on a page—but not for the Christian.
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
This is where the thread started: quote:
How you grow spiritually? What disciplines/practices help you connect to God/Jesus? How does one stay fresh and vibrant in faith without becoming a legalist?
Is anyone else sad that what should have been a positive exchange of helpful ideas has degenerated into spiritual name calling? And now threatens to become yet another discussion of Calvinism? Or is it only me?
Don't know about this either/or. I'm sure it's not only you, but I'm also sure that the way you've labelled it as "degenerated into" and "threatens to become" is an unhelpful slant on the discussion. What it misses is that any discussion of spiritual discipline relates to underlying views of God and man in much the same way as fruit relates to tree. You can confine the discussion to fruit alone, to some extent, but ignoring the tree from which they come may mean that you end up comparing apples and oranges.
In the same way, the apparent similarity between different types of spiritual discipline evaporates (on my view) when you compare the spiritual roots from which they spring. Failure to recognize this, and refusal to discuss points of origin moves us towards myopia.
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AdamPater
Sacristan of the LavaLamp
# 4431
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Posted
Given the expressed desire of many to return to the OP and the merits of its particular point of discussion, and the manifold opportunities which now exist elsewhere to explore the many tangents that have developed over the last 9 pages, I smell a troll.
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Put not your trust in princes.
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
Not so Adam.
I guarantee to stop posting on this thread when people stop directing questions at me. You will notice, for example, that I specifically refrained from making any comment on the examen you linked, or on Duo's comments on the rosary. Believe me, if I had, you would see further examples of what you would perceive as derailment.
[ 08. December 2005, 21:41: Message edited by: Gordon Cheng ]
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AdamPater
Sacristan of the LavaLamp
# 4431
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Posted
Gordon, you've specifically refrained from making comment on things relating to the OP, and you've persisted in refusing to answer questions directed at you in a manner that enlightens a discussion of the OP. Your hobby horses can frolic elsewhere though.
Wups... DNFTT. MY bad.
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Put not your trust in princes.
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
Then seeing as how you ask for specific comment, AP, I would say that the examen you linked to earlier is a step in the direction of introspection which may or may not be spiritually helpful, and can't be said to be distinctively Christian. As such, it's a risky thing to recommend and in the wrong hand may be spiritually damaging. Like eating a handful of tablets you are not sure (but may) be more than sugar, it is not recommended.
But now that I've addressed it, you may prefer that I hadn't.
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Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Yes, I'm afraid I am rather zapped into the pit on the Free Will question also.
quote:
CANON V.-If any one saith, that, since Adam's sin, the free will of man is lost and extinguished; or, that it is a thing with only a name, yea a name without a reality, a figment, in fine, introduced into the Church by Satan; let him be anathema.
You see why I just quote little bits, Duo? The more I read, the worse it gets for me. Or do you think you can help me out of this one too, now?
Get back to the topic. And stop changing the subject. It's getting boring.
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Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
Get back to the topic. And stop changing the subject. It's getting boring.
Well, OK but, er—see my previous two posts. Do you really want my comment on the rosary? If I post my thoughts on this subject, it will be (a) long (b) annoying to some (c) delayed, because I will want to address the question carefully (d) tending to further derailment in the eyes of some. I am honestly trying to respect the wishes of some of the posters on this thread, so I hope you can feel at least some sympathy for my wariness here.
[ 08. December 2005, 22:00: Message edited by: Gordon Cheng ]
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AdamPater
Sacristan of the LavaLamp
# 4431
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Then seeing as how you ask for specific comment, AP, I would say that the examen you linked to earlier is a step in the direction of introspection which may or may not be spiritually helpful, and can't be said to be distinctively Christian.
You are only in a position to have this opinion because you have clearly not read the material or endeavoured in any way to inform your criticism with the wider context. You are wilfully, deliberately ignorant in this matter.
Watch out folks! Prayer puts you in danger of maudlin introspection, and consciously directing your attention to the presence of Christ as you meditate on your life is not distinctively Christian. Danger, Danger, Will Robinson!!
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Put not your trust in princes.
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
Introspection is not recommended anywhere in Scripture. "Search me O Lord, and know my heart"—the exact opposite of introspection. But if you think that it is, you need to defend it rather than requiring me to read up on your sources.
I could tell you about introspection from a psychological point of view or from my own experience, but only in the sense of providing an illustrative cautionary tale. then you could provide me with an example of how wonderful you have personally found introspection to be in the process of aiding your spiritual growth, and I'm not sure that either of us or anyone else would be, spiritually speaking, any the wiser.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Introspection is not recommended anywhere in Scripture.
This may be true; I lack the give-a-shit to go look it up. However, it is also true that there are myriad things in scripture that are recommended or even commanded which seem to have introspection as a prerequisite.
For example, we are told to let our requests be made known to God. If one doesn't know what one's requests are, that is not possible. Hence some introspection -- at least enough to decide what one requests -- is necessary.
Similarly, we are told not to think more highly of ourselves than is appropriate. How do we decide what is appropriate? Hmm, perhaps introspection?
I could go on. Must I?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Niënna
Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652
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Posted
In the name of everything green and good, Gordon, why is it so hard for to say something like, "Wow. I'm glad you find meditation to be a helpful guide in your journey with Christ. I don't find it to be a useful discipline with me. However, I do find just reading the bible to work well with me." OR, how about, "Spiritual growth, what do you mean by that? I find praying useful in following Christ. etc."
instead of:
"OMG <freak out mode> you $%#$ meditate? I can't believe you want to win God's approval and try to earn righteousness instead of rely on the Cross of Christ. You are NOT on the PATH of CHRIST but some obviously screwed-up heathen path not applicable to ME. Because I KNOW the truth of Christ."
???
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[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
No, your point is clear. And introspection is a natural human psychological process. It's not a sin. It's not a good thing. It just is. It may be damaging and it may be helpful, but there's nothing particularly spiritual about it. It has the same spiritual value as something like sleep.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:
In the name of everything green and good, Gordon, why is it so hard for to say something like, "Wow. I'm glad you find meditation to be a helpful guide in your journey with Christ. I don't find it to be a useful discipline with me. However, I do find just reading the bible to work well with me." OR, how about, "Spiritual growth, what do you mean by that? I find praying useful in following Christ. etc."
instead of:
"OMG <freak out mode> you $%#$ meditate? I can't believe you want to win God's approval and try to earn righteousness instead of rely on the Cross of Christ. You are NOT on the PATH of CHRIST but some obviously screwed-up heathen path not applicable to ME. Because I KNOW the truth of Christ."
???
It almost seems as though you've answered your own question by the very asking of it, doesn't it?
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
Sorry, previous reply was to Mousethief.
Joyfulsoul, I would only react as you did if Ithought experience was a reliable guide. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. In matters spiritual, it is desperately corrupt and misleading, therefore to be treated with the same respect with which a charmer treats his snake. He loves his snake, he just suspects it of being out to get him.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Joyfulsoul, I would only react as you did if I thought experience was a reliable guide. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. In matters spiritual, it is desperately corrupt and misleading
How do you know this? Wouldn't be by experience, would it?
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Joyfulsoul, I would only react as you did if I thought experience was a reliable guide. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. In matters spiritual, it is desperately corrupt and misleading
How do you know this? Wouldn't be by experience, would it?
No. It's because the Bible tells me so. But then, you knew that was coming, didn't you. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Merely a pawn in my magnificent play.
Now, where does the Bible tell you that experience in things spiritual is desperately corrupt and misleading, please?
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
I see what's coming. I'll tell you and you'll ping me for prooftexting ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Genesis 6:5 "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
Psalm 14:1-3
Psalm 53:1-3
Jeremiah 17:9.
Mark 7:14-23 (Jesus says it so it must be right)
I'd go on but then I might quote Paul by accident and I'd get troubles for that too, wouldn't I?
Here's a Bible for those who don't carry one with them at all times ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
I see what's coming. I'll tell you and you'll ping me for prooftexting
Genesis 6:5 "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
Clearly hyperbole since Noah was found righteous -- and we're all descendants of Noah. So this is irrelevant.
quote:
Psalm 14:1-3
More hyperbole. If there were none who sought God, WHO WROTE THE PSALM? Moreover this says nothing about spiritual experience.
quote:
Psalm 53:1-3
I didn't realize these psalms were so similar. Same comments as to Psalm 14.
quote:
Jeremiah 17:9.
More hyperbole. You flunked poetry, didn't you? And again this is about the heart not about experience.
quote:
Mark 7:14-23 (Jesus says it so it must be right)
This says nothing about experience being deceitful. You sniffin' glue, boy?
Well you gave it your best shot but none of the Scripture passages you quoted say anything like what you claim for them. I am not surprised, but definitely disappointed. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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AdamPater
Sacristan of the LavaLamp
# 4431
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Posted
Gordon, the Ghost who Talks.... the recent story so far, for those who came in late:
- AP refers to Ignatian exercise of the examen
- GC erects straw-man of introspection and a-Christian practice.
- AP (rather rudely, evidencing a need to work out his salvation with more diligence) points out that straw-people need not apply
- GC shovels in a few more bales of hay
- MT is MT, as only MT can be
![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
Face it, Gordon, you're possessed by a mono-topic troll. Turn to God for your salvation: if you stick at it, you will be released. Meditate upon this. Pray even.
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Put not your trust in princes.
Posts: 4894 | From: On the left of the big pink bit. | Registered: Apr 2003
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
I see what's coming. I'll tell you and you'll ping me for prooftexting
Genesis 6:5 "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
Clearly hyperbole since Noah was found righteous -- and we're all descendants of Noah. So this is irrelevant.
You mean the guy who came off his boat, planted a vineyard, and got rolling drunk while his children snickered and so came under a curse? That Noah?
And that psalmist—didn't he murder someone and make off with his wife? Didn't he raise a rapist and an insurrectionist, and teach his children violence at firsthand?
I suppose he got his conclusions about sinfulness by a process of introspection, so I may have to shift ground to allow that occasionally, we do realize we're sinful; especially when we're writing under the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit (which I've never done, but YMMV).
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
You mean the guy who came off his boat, planted a vineyard, and got rolling drunk while his children snickered and so came under a curse? That Noah?
What's your point? Are you saying Noah wasn't found righteous? Are you saying that this isn't hyperbole? Or that God made a huge mistake and should have drowned Noah & Co. also?
Anyway what does this have to do with experience being a bad teacher?
quote:
And that psalmist—didn't he murder someone and make off with his wife? Didn't he raise a rapist and an insurrectionist, and teach his children violence at firsthand?
Could be. That does not prove your point.
quote:
I suppose he got his conclusions about sinfulness by a process of introspection, so I may have to shift ground to allow that occasionally, we do realize we're sinful; especially when we're writing under the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit (which I've never done, but YMMV).
WTF? You really are sniffing glue. Dude, what in the world does this have to do with your claim that spiritual experience is deceitful?
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Genesis 6:5 "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
But look at Genesis 6:8-9. 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD. 9 This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God.
The existence of Noah shows that not every intention in the heart of every man was evil. Presumably the intentions in the heart of Noah were good. He didn't read the Scriptures; there weren't any. He just walked with God.
Moo
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See you later, alligator.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
And while we're at it, let's go ahead and drag Paul into it. Paul said:
quote:
I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell. 5I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses. 6Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say.
7To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.
Surely Paul himself wouldn't trust his spiritual experiences, would he? After all they are deceitful. And yet he boasts about them. Hmmmmm. Wonder how that could be, if Gordon's point about experience is true?
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
]WTF? You really are sniffing glue. Dude, what in the world does this have to do with your claim that spiritual experience is deceitful?
It's no big step. If our heart is utterly deceitful, it follows that all our interpretation of experience (spiritual and other) is bound to be utterly deceived. We have the experience, we deceitfully fool ourselves into thinking it's a good one. Only God working by his Spirit through Scripture can teach us otherwise. (Your cue AP)
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Hello. Earth to Gordon. Is this thing on?
"Utterly deceitful" is hyperbole. It is not to be taken literally.
Thank you. Good night.
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Surely Paul himself wouldn't trust his spiritual experiences, would he? After all they are deceitful. And yet he boasts about them. Hmmmmm. Wonder how that could be, if Gordon's point about experience is true?
Buddy, when I have a spiritual experience like Paul's I will follow his example and tell no-one. To do otherwise would be tempting fate.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Surely Paul himself wouldn't trust his spiritual experiences, would he? After all they are deceitful. And yet he boasts about them. Hmmmmm. Wonder how that could be, if Gordon's point about experience is true?
Buddy, when I have a spiritual experience like Paul's I will follow his example and tell no-one. To do otherwise would be tempting fate.
If you follow his example it will be written out in the most-read book in the world. How is that not telling anyone?
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AdamPater
Sacristan of the LavaLamp
# 4431
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Posted
D N F T T
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Put not your trust in princes.
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Genesis 6:5 "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
But look at Genesis 6:8-9. 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD. 9 This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God.
The existence of Noah shows that not every intention in the heart of every man was evil. Presumably the intentions in the heart of Noah were good. He didn't read the Scriptures; there weren't any. He just walked with God.
Moo
Given the subsequent narrative of Genesis, I would say that it's verses 8 and 9 that are the hyperbolic overstatement, rather than verse 5. Noah is clearly not righteous, as his off-ark behaviour demonstrates. Or, as Hebrews 11:7 shows, he can really only said to be righteous by faith.
The hyperbole boot is on the other foot, I feel.
Goodnight, Mousethief, and sleep tight.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Be that as it may, Paul had a spiritual experience and boasted about it. There was nothing in Scripture to foreshadow it because it was of things that no tongue can tell. By your criteria, Gordon, he must therefore have been deceived. And yet he boasted about it in front of God and everybody. Wriggle out of that.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Um, Gordon, do you know what hyperbole means? "There is none" might possibly be hyperbole. "Noah found favour in the sight of the Lord" is not even a candidate. Look it up, maybe.
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
This is where the thread started: quote:
How you grow spiritually? What disciplines/practices help you connect to God/Jesus? How does one stay fresh and vibrant in faith without becoming a legalist?
Is anyone else sad that what should have been a positive exchange of helpful ideas has degenerated into spiritual name calling? And now threatens to become yet another discussion of Calvinism? Or is it only me?
D N F T T
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
MT, what Paul specifically says is that he had the experience and he is not going to speak of it. Consequently, we don't know what it was exactly and we can't imitate it. Or do you have info on this that I don't?
I don't doubt that God could give us all sorts of experiences far beyond what you or I could imagine or subsequently speak of. If such experiences occurred, they would by definition be unspoken, and non-normative. God can do whatever he pleases along those lines, even appear to me as I sit meditating in front of the computer screen on all sorts of specious arguments. But I wouldn't then expect others to follow suit, and it wouldn't bother me even if such experiences never occurred to me or anyone. Our expectations (at least on my view) ought to be bound by what is written in God's word—in the same way as God binds himself by what he writes.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Our expectations (at least on my view) ought to be bound by what is written in God's word
Why?
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Our expectations (at least on my view) ought to be bound by what is written in God's word
Why?
Well, that's just what it is to be (ontologically) a bible totin' evangelical. I read my bible and discover that God is a consistent God who binds himself by his word of promise. So if he were to promise me in Scripture that I would have certain experiences through the exercise of certain spiritual disciplines, I would have no choice but to believe and trust those promises. But if he didn't promise, I wouldn't expect. Kind of like my girls expecting a Saturn V rocket ship for Xmas when I promised them three tricycles. (I didn't, BTW)
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
But this thread isn't about what God promised, it's about people's experiences. And you're not merely claiming that God gives what he promises, you're claiming that anyone experiencing anything beyond what he promises must perforce be deceived. Which is not biblical.
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