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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: All Things Mary
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by josephine:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
[qb] quote:
Jesus died, but praying to him isn't consulting the dead.
Yes, but 1) Jesus was ressurected from dead and 2) Jesus is God and he commands us only to pray to him.
I pray thee, Komensky, that thou wouldst show me where in the Holy Scriptures our Lord didst command us to pray only to Him.
I don't care for your patronising tone for starters. But to answer your question:
Matthew 5:6 'But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.'
1 Timothy 2:5: 'For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,'
Acts 4:24: When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. "Sovereign Lord," they said, "you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.
I would have thought this was clear.
Furthermore, who can say what is more pleasing to God than God himself? The perfect example of how to pray is given to us from Jesus himself in the Lord's Prayer. Luke 11: 'He said to them, "When you pray, say: " 'Father, hallowed be your name,"
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In fact, "pray" doesn't mean what you think it means.
How dare you.
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Jesus did not command us to pray to no one but God.
See above (and above).
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As for your first point -- yes, Jesus is risen from the dead. And that is why we can pray to Mary and to the saints whose bodies are asleep in the grave but who live in Him. That wasn't possible before the Resurrection, but now that he has destroyed death and trampled down the gates of Hell, it is possible. To deny that is to deny Christ's victory over death.
You are conflating several things into one here. But it is a moot point.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
I don't care for your patronising tone for starters.
I didn't mean to be patronizing. I meant to demonstrate the acceptable use of the word "pray" in a context other than communication with the divine. Since the word "pray" is generally archaic, I used archaic forms to go with it. Sorry you didn't like it.
quote:
But to answer your question:
Matthew 5:6 <snip>
1 Timothy 2:5: <snip>
Acts 4:24: <snip>
So you've got Bible verses that show that we can and should pray to God. None of them have the word "only" in them. Would you kindly show me where in Holy Scriptures it says that the only one we may ask for anything is God? And would you explain whether you think it's wrong for people in judicial proceedings to pray to the court?
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quote:
In fact, "pray" doesn't mean what you think it means.
How dare you.
I dare because it seems to be true. You seem to think that "pray" refers exclusively to communication between people and gods. It doesn't. If I have misunderstood you, I will happily stand corrected.
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quote:
As for your first point -- yes, Jesus is risen from the dead. And that is why we can pray to Mary and to the saints whose bodies are asleep in the grave but who live in Him. That wasn't possible before the Resurrection, but now that he has destroyed death and trampled down the gates of Hell, it is possible. To deny that is to deny Christ's victory over death.
You are conflating several things into one here. But it is a moot point.
No, I'm not, and no, it isn't moot. It is in fact the real point to this: Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life. The saints, whether or not they are alive in the flest, are alive in Christ. Thus we have communion with them. Thus we can ask for their prayers, and they can pray for us.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Read 1 Timothy 2:5 again and then tell m eif it is still not clear to you.
Also, who do you think the saints are?
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Read 1 Timothy 2:5 again and then tell m eif it is still not clear to you.
Let's start with verses 1-4:
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1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
So whatever verse 5 means, it can't mean that it's wrong to pray for other people, nor to ask other people for their prayers, since Paul is here not just asking but exhorting Timothy to pray for others, and says that these prayers are good and acceptable in the sight of God.
There is one God, and one mediator -- but there are many who pray.
Tell me, Komensky, do you believe that it's wrong to pray for others? Or to ask others for their prayers?
quote:
Also, who do you think the saints are?
Those who are alive in Christ.
[ 09. December 2005, 17:44: Message edited by: josephine ]
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by josephine:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Komensky:
[qb] Read 1 Timothy 2:5 again and then tell m eif it is still not clear to you.
Let's start with verses 1-4:
quote:
1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
quote:
So whatever verse 5 means, it can't mean that it's wrong to pray for other people, nor to ask other people for their prayers, since Paul is here not just asking but exhorting Timothy to pray for others, and says that these prayers are good and acceptable in the sight of God.
I have never suggested otherise.
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There is one God, and one mediator -- but there are many who pray.
Tell me, Komensky, do you believe that it's wrong to pray for others? Or to ask others for their prayers?
(yawn) Yet again, I have never asserted this. It is prayer to other than God that I drew into question. Pay closer attention.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
(yawn) Yet again, I have never asserted this. It is prayer to other than God that I drew into question. Pay closer attention.
If you would chide others for the tone of their posts to you, it would be well for you to be careful with the tone of your own posts.
That said, do you consider it acceptable to direct requests of any kind to anyone other than God?
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by josephine:If you would chide others for the tone of their posts to you, it would be well for you to be careful with the tone of your own posts
Sorry.
quote:
That said, do you consider it acceptable to direct requests of any kind to anyone other than God?
What do you mean by 'direct request of any kind'? I certainly ask things of other living people, yes, if that' what you mean. Look Josephine, you asked some questions, I answered them. You asked for Bible verse, I provided them. Where is this going?
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
That said, do you consider it acceptable to direct requests of any kind to anyone other than God?
What do you mean by 'direct request of any kind'? I certainly ask things of other living people, yes, if that' what you mean. Look Josephine, you asked some questions, I answered them. You asked for Bible verse, I provided them. Where is this going?
I'm trying to make sure we understand each other. Sometimes understanding proceeds best when you take it one small step at a time. So I'm going one small step at a time.
By direct requests I meant things like, "Would you pray for me?" or "Would you be with me while I talk to the doctor, because I'm afraid I'll get bad news?"
If I understand you correctly, you are willing to make such requests of people.
I assume that you accept that pray is simply a very old-fashioned word for ask. So, using that old-fashioned word, you are willing to pray to other people -- that is to say, you are willing to ask other people for things. So am I.
You specify that the other people have to be living. I agree. We differ, though, on whether "living" in this context means alive in the flesh, or alive in Christ. I would say the latter. If I understand you correctly, you would say the former: if someone is dead in the flesh, then we must no longer ask them for anything.
Is that right so far?
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
Komensky,
Can I try to sort out what you think is lawful?
I'll take as an example a prayer which according to 2 Timothy is proper - that George Bush, a person in authority, should be blessed (that is, made deeply happy), and two of God's saints, Josephine, who is alive in the flesh and in Christ, and Mary, who is alive in Christ. If I am trying to obey Paul's command to pray this prayer, which of these can I lawfully say:
- Josephine, please pray with me for George Bush;
- Blessed Mary, please pray with me for George Bush;
- Holy Spirit of God, please pray with me for George Bush;
- Josephine, please be kind to George Bush;
- Blessed Mary, please be kind to George Bush;
- Lord God, please be kind to George Bush?
If you think that any of these are not lawful, where in scripture are they forbidden?
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
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Dobbo
Shipmate
# 5850
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
Komensky,
Can I try to sort out what you think is lawful?
I'll take as an example a prayer which according to 2 Timothy is proper - that George Bush, a person in authority, should be blessed (that is, made deeply happy), and two of God's saints, Josephine, who is alive in the flesh and in Christ, and Mary, who is alive in Christ. If I am trying to obey Paul's command to pray this prayer, which of these can I lawfully say:
- Josephine, please pray with me for George Bush;
- Blessed Mary, please pray with me for George Bush;
- Holy Spirit of God, please pray with me for George Bush;
- Josephine, please be kind to George Bush;
- Blessed Mary, please be kind to George Bush;
- Lord God, please be kind to George Bush?
If you think that any of these are not lawful, where in scripture are they forbidden?
A couple of meditations.
Would you rather pray to the omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent God or one of His creations?
To paraphrase would you rather speak to the organ grinder or the monkey?
Or does Mary have those exact same characteristics as God in heaven? She probably would need to given that there are apparently twice as many written prayers to Mary as there are to God.*
Did Robert Traill get it wrong in his 13 sermons on Hebrews 4 v 16 and should have mentioned Mary at least once a sermon.Or is Mary truly on the throne as the "Queen of Heaven"
quote:
Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need
I understand the concept of praying through the saints / Mary is similar to asking a friend to pray for you.
Only it is not, an example I would give you is on Wednesday two prayer warriors of our church came up to me at our house group and said we prayed for you today (my name was in the church prayer diary that day) and asked me how I was getting on with my job search - that is not the kind of physical encouragement I would get from Mary no?
* This is not dogma for me so I will not be upset if someone corrects me. In fact I would be positively encouraged by it.
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I'm holding out for Grace......, because I know who I am, and I hope I don't have to depend on my own religiosity
Bono
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dobbo:
I understand the concept of praying through the saints / Mary is similar to asking a friend to pray for you.
Only it is not, an example I would give you is on Wednesday two prayer warriors of our church came up to me at our house group and said we prayed for you today (my name was in the church prayer diary that day) and asked me how I was getting on with my job search - that is not the kind of physical encouragement I would get from Mary no?
No, nor is it the kind of physical encouragement I would get from Jesus, either, but I still pray to him. Or, more to the point, I don't get that kind of physical encouragement from other people whom I know pray for me regularly -- people who are no longer near me, but who love me and who pray regularly for me.
I have been known to drop an email to one or two of these people, to ask for their prayers for a specific need. Sometimes I get an email back. Sometimes I get a phone call or a note. Sometimes I get absolutely no response at all. But that's okay, because I wasn't asking for them to talk to me, I was asking them to pray for me.
quote:
* This is not dogma for me so I will not be upset if someone corrects me. In fact I would be positively encouraged by it.
"This" refers, of course, to your assertion "that there are apparently twice as many written prayers to Mary as there are to God" -- an assertion that is breathtaking in its ignorance. At least I am forced to assume that it's deliberate, wilfull ignorance, because any other conclusion would be far less charitable, and would probably end up in the nether regions.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dobbo:
Would you rather pray to the omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent God or one of His creations?
That wasn't really my point. What someone would rather do, what they happen to find helpful in building their relationship with God, is up to them. Praying to/with/through Mary isn't something that comes naturally to me, and normally does not feature in my prayer life. So I suppose that 364.94 days a year. I'd rather pray directly to God.
But my question was more that, if, say, once a year, I feel it would be helpful to ask Jesus' mother to pray for me, whether I'm allowed to? And if not, why not?
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
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sanc
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# 6355
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Posted
josephine:
GOD does not need any mediator between HIM and humanity except JESUS.
There is no precedence in the Jewish faith before the cross and a few centuries after that, that people are praying to the dead (or for the dead). This is a practice which is totally alien to the early church.
Intercesory prayer is different from praying to Mary or other saints to interceed with GOD in our behalf. Intercesory prayer is me praying to GOD for you, a common Pauline practice. Coursing my prayers to GOD through some saints for you is another matter.
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whitelaughter
Shipmate
# 10611
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
But my question was more that, if, say, once a year, I feel it would be helpful to ask Jesus' mother to pray for me, whether I'm allowed to? And if not, why not?
Mary was a devout Jewess, yes? There are devout Jews/Jewesses on the Ship, yes? Rather than arguing theology, how about asking them whether they'd be happy having goyim praying to them (insert appropriate phrase rather than prayer of course) after they have died? If they don't care, go for it, if they do - then it would be discourteous to Mary to do so. When in doubt, respect the wishes of the dead.
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Bonaventura
Wise Drunkard
# 1066
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sanc:
There is no precedence in the Jewish faith before the cross and a few centuries after that, that people are praying to the dead (or for the dead). This is a practice which is totally alien to the early church.
Sorry, but this is bullshit. There is much evidence of similar practices in Judaism. No time to detail it now.
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“I think you are all mistaken in your theological beliefs. The God or Gods of Christianity are not there, whether you call them Father, Son and Holy Spirit or Aunt, Uncle and Holy Cow.” -El Greco
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Dobbo
Shipmate
# 5850
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by josephine:
quote:
* This is not dogma for me so I will not be upset if someone corrects me. In fact I would be positively encouraged by it.
"This" refers, of course, to your assertion "that there are apparently twice as many written prayers to Mary as there are to God" -- an assertion that is breathtaking in its ignorance. At least I am forced to assume that it's deliberate, wilfull ignorance, because any other conclusion would be far less charitable, and would probably end up in the nether regions.
I am delighted to be corrected on this one, it goes to show something I have believed all along - I am not infallible.
I have also had another myth of the protestant literature dispelled and am encouraged that that is the case. It is only by dialogue we can learn from others.
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I'm holding out for Grace......, because I know who I am, and I hope I don't have to depend on my own religiosity
Bono
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
As for asking Mary (or another dead person) to pray for you; Josephone and (someone else, I've forgotton who) argue that it is the same asking a friend to pray for you. Well, I can ask a friend 'will you pray for me?" and they can say 'yes' or 'no'. Dead people (or just to clearer, those on the other side of death) cannot answer, they are physically not present to be asked. Now before you go and argue that neither is Jesus, the difference is you pray to him.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
Komensky,
I still don't know from that which of my 6 statements above you believe a Christian can or can't properly say in prayer. I'm assuming that you think 2 and 5 are not allowed, but please confirm.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
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Dobbo
Shipmate
# 5850
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Posted
I suppose the "praying" to Mary one question that I think is important is this
Is she omnipresent ie can she answer the prayers of someone in Australia and Greenland at the same time?
If she can hear both at the same time she has an ability equivalent of God's omnipresence - now either that means that God's omnipresence is not all that it is cracked up to be (devalued by others having an equivalent ability, not necessarily the same as being in all places at the same time ie saying that the concept of time does not apply in heaven - you also could argue that God does not need to be omnipresent either because He too is outside of time - ergo it still devalues being omnipresent) or you are giving Mary an attribute of God. Which is it to be?
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I'm holding out for Grace......, because I know who I am, and I hope I don't have to depend on my own religiosity
Bono
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
Neither Mary nor any of the other saints are dead. This is really important - we wouldn't be able to ask any of them to pray for us if they were. Like josephine says, Christ being risen makes all the difference (possibly one of the greatest understatements in creation...).
I don't find it particularly helpful (or correct) to talk of Mary (or any other saint) "answering" prayer. God answers prayers. We merely ask Mary, or any of the other saints to pray for us as we would ask people we know on earth to pray for us. It is God who answers.
I also don't find it very helpful to through omni words around. They are human descriptions of God which work in some situations and not others. Neither of the two options that you present, Dobbo, make any sense to me in the context of my experience of God.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
"through" in the first sentence of the last paragraph should read "throw". Apologies.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Dobbo
Shipmate
# 5850
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
Neither Mary nor any of the other saints are dead. This is really important - we wouldn't be able to ask any of them to pray for us if they were. Like josephine says, Christ being risen makes all the difference (possibly one of the greatest understatements in creation...).
I don't find it particularly helpful (or correct) to talk of Mary (or any other saint) "answering" prayer. God answers prayers. We merely ask Mary, or any of the other saints to pray for us as we would ask people we know on earth to pray for us. It is God who answers.
I also don't find it very helpful to through omni words around. They are human descriptions of God which work in some situations and not others. Neither of the two options that you present, Dobbo, make any sense to me in the context of my experience of God.
So are you suggesting that God is not omnipresent then? When is God being omnipresent not appropriate?
In your experience of God what is your understanding of Him being omnipresent?
Can you see that if God and Mary have the same capability of hearing prayers then you are either lowering God to Mary's level or raising Mary to God's level? What you are doing either way is making Mary and God equal in capability of hearing prayers.
Can you give me a third way, from your personal experience, that would reconcile that Mary and God do not have equivalent attributes - or is Mary equivalent to God when it comes to hearing the prayers of millions of people.
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I'm holding out for Grace......, because I know who I am, and I hope I don't have to depend on my own religiosity
Bono
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
I'm suggesting that omnipresence is not the most helpful way to think about God's presence. It's too broadbrush for my liking. I don't deny that God is everywhere, but I think that we need to be able to recognise that his "presence" somewhere is first and foremost a mystery and that he is able to be present in different ways (?extents). For example, I would say that God is present in the world in a different way post-Pentecost because of the gift of the Holy Spirit. Similarly, he was present in a markedly different way during the earthly life of Our Lord. He is present in a different way again in the Eucharistic species. He is present in a different way again in the Church. To brush all these (which are by no means exhaustive btw) up into omnipresence often obscures understanding rather than aiding it. At any rate omnipresence is a human way of describing God - it is not something that is necessarily intrinsic and unique to his very nature. It may be de facto unique to him. Query: is the devil omnipresent? (I ask this genuiunely - I don't know what I think is the answer).
Coming now to Mary, I'd want to say that hearing and presence are two different things. I don't think actually that Mary needs to be omnipresent in order for her to hear our requests to her. I would say rather that it's through our communion (fellowship if you prefer) with her (and all the saints) that she is able to "hear" our requests.
quote:
Dobbo said:
Can you see that if God and Mary have the same capability of hearing prayers then you are either lowering God to Mary's level or raising Mary to God's level? What you are doing either way is making Mary and God equal in capability of hearing prayers.
Without meaning to give offence, I'm struggling on this to reduce it to more than "Can you see that if God and Mary have something in common then you are either lowering God to Mary's level or raising Mary to God's level?" I think it comes from brushing too broadly in our descriptions.
[ 10. December 2005, 11:38: Message edited by: seasick ]
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Fr Alex
Shipmate
# 10304
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Posted
Just two comments..
1) The Marian dogmas we have been discussing whilst not officially dogms until failrly late, have been believed in by Christians from the earliest times (before the canon of scripture) and have lasted the test of time ie under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
2)What do Protestants actually think the RC Church and other catholics are doing in promoting such belief? Do they think there is some conspiracy to undermine true faith (a house divided sprongs to mind though)?
Or perhaps, after all, it is true!
Fr A
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If this sig appears below a post about a Dead Horse or about how mean the hosts and admins are, you may be looking at my final post.
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Dobbo
Shipmate
# 5850
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
I'm suggesting that omnipresence is not the most helpful way to think about God's presence. It's too broadbrush for my liking. I don't deny that God is everywhere, but I think that we need to be able to recognise that his "presence" somewhere is first and foremost a mystery and that he is able to be present in different ways (?extents). For example, I would say that God is present in the world in a different way post-Pentecost because of the gift of the Holy Spirit. Similarly, he was present in a markedly different way during the earthly life of Our Lord. He is present in a different way again in the Eucharistic species. He is present in a different way again in the Church. To brush all these (which are by no means exhaustive btw) up into omnipresence often obscures understanding rather than aiding it. At any rate omnipresence is a human way of describing God - it is not something that is necessarily intrinsic and unique to his very nature. It may be de facto unique to him. Query: is the devil omnipresent? (I ask this genuiunely - I don't know what I think is the answer).
Coming now to Mary, I'd want to say that hearing and presence are two different things. I don't think actually that Mary needs to be omnipresent in order for her to hear our requests to her. I would say rather that it's through our communion (fellowship if you prefer) with her (and all the saints) that she is able to "hear" our requests.
quote:
Dobbo said:
Can you see that if God and Mary have the same capability of hearing prayers then you are either lowering God to Mary's level or raising Mary to God's level? What you are doing either way is making Mary and God equal in capability of hearing prayers.
Without meaning to give offence, I'm struggling on this to reduce it to more than "Can you see that if God and Mary have something in common then you are either lowering God to Mary's level or raising Mary to God's level?" I think it comes from brushing too broadly in our descriptions.
Saying that God is present differently as you have highlighted does not denigrate His omnipresence it enhances it. All I am trying to do is take an attribute that we both attribute to God and compare it to what attributes that are ascribed to Mary.
This talks of God's omnipresence more eloquently than I ever could
John Wesley on the omnipresence of God
quote:
No. The devil is not, and cannot be, everywhere at once (omnipresent). This is just one of many attributes of God that satan does NOT share, and serves to emphasise that satan, the devil, is in no way comparable to, let along equal to, the one and only God.
The following may help to illustrate the point.
In Job chapter 1 we are told that satan came into (v 6) and out of (v12) the presence of God. Here at least is one place where satan is not always present.
In Matthew's gospel chapter 4 verse 3 we are told the "tempter came to him" [Jesus] at the start of his temptation, and in verse 11 "the devil left him" afterwards. Therefore the devil had not been with Jesus immediately before or immediately after his temptation.
James also tells us that we are to "Resist the devil..." with the result that "...he will flee from you" (James 4 v 7). If he 'flees' (runs away) he cannot also be present.
This I got quickly off the net - I am sure you could probably find better ones using devil omnipresent in Google
I am not being broad I am looking at a single specific ie that of hearing prayers and I am looking at whether Mary has the ability to perform something that is exactly equivalent to God with respect to a very unique attribute of God's that of Him being omnipresent.
I use the word omnipresent because it is the shorthand of answering the rhetorical question below (and discussed by John Wesley in the page above)
quote:
Jeremiah 23 v 24
Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord
By suggesting that Mary is in communion with all of us am I to read into that that God is not in communion with us or that God and Mary have equivalent attributes with respect to hearing our prayers. Or is saying someone is in communion with countless people all at the same time all over the world does not smack a bit like omniprescence - it at least is giving her the same capability of hearing prayers as God? Because although Mary is outwith time we certainly are not so the time we pray is exactly that - we are finite beings and when I pray at 12 oclock it is still 12 oclock along with all the others that pray at that particular time - whether it be Greenwich Mean Time etc. - to someone outside of time 12 o clock has no meaning
Could you also define your understanding of communion of the saints - because I want to understand if it is what I would understand as communion of the saints. I have already been picked up once for saying something that is incorrect so it would be helpful for me to understand your definition because I suppose communion of the saints means different things to different people.
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I'm holding out for Grace......, because I know who I am, and I hope I don't have to depend on my own religiosity
Bono
Posts: 395 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2004
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
Regarding the saints hearing our prayers -- they do not hear them because they are omnipresent. They hear them because they are in Christ, and because their vision (or hearing) is no longer obscured by sin, ignorance, passion, hunger, worry, or the need to get the dishes done. They no longer see through a glass darkly; they have the mind of Christ. They have perfect communion with Christ, and so they know fully, even as they are fully known. They don't have to be -- they aren't, they can't be -- omnipresent or omniscient in themselves. But God became man that we might become partakers of the divine nature -- by grace, we become what he is by nature.
If we can by faith cause mountains to be removed, how hard can it be to speak to someone who is in Christ, and to implore them to entreat him on our behalf, or on behalf of someone we love?
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
As for asking Mary (or another dead person) to pray for you; Josephone and (someone else, I've forgotton who) argue that it is the same asking a friend to pray for you. Well, I can ask a friend 'will you pray for me?" and they can say 'yes' or 'no'. Dead people (or just to clearer, those on the other side of death) cannot answer, they are physically not present to be asked.
As I said on an earlier post on this page,there are people whom I ask to pray for me with whom I am not physically present and from whom I rarely hear a "yes" or a "no." I drop them an email. They may or may not email me back. I don't need them to talk to me if I've asked them to pray for me; I have asked them to talk to God on my behalf, and I trust that they do.
quote:
Now before you go and argue that neither is Jesus, the difference is you pray to him.
Tell you what -- because I think it confuses the issue, lets drop the word "pray." It means to request humbly, to entreat, to implore. So lets use those words. I can implore the saints to entreat God on my behalf, that my sins might be forgiven. I can implore Jesus to have mercy on me and forgive my sins. I can implore you to entreat God on my behalf. None of you are here with me in the flesh -- not you, not the saints, not Jesus.
Would you mind answering eliab's question, btw? I'd really like to know, of his six choices, which ones you think are allowed and which are not.
Oh, and Sanc? I'd strongly recommend the book Rescue for the Dead: The Posthumous Salvation of Non-Christians in Early Christianity by Jeffrey A. Trumbower. Fascinating book.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
This may be going off topic - so feel free to ignore me if so ...
but I'm intrigued by the notion that this thread has worked on that prayer is asking. One aspect of prayer is asking, yes. But the guidance that Jesus gave about prayer goes much further than that.
I think one of the traps that all of us can easily fall into is regarding prayer as a shopping list. But it isn't. Jesus said to find your secret place and pray. At one point, he told us to ask, but he also told us to adore God, to submit to his will, to meditate on the glory of his Name.
Asking Mary (or indeed anyone else) to pray for me may work in the asking stakes - but what about all the other things that are meant to take place in prayer? Actually I think our prayer-time is often not meant to do anything materially about the situation that I am in - it's meant to deal with me.
I guess what I'm saying is can that happen elsewhere than in a face-to-face with God himself?
Red x
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ladyinred:
This may be going off topic - so feel free to ignore me if so ...
but I'm intrigued by the notion that this thread has worked on that prayer is asking. One aspect of prayer is asking, yes. But the guidance that Jesus gave about prayer goes much further than that.
It seems to me that, in a discussion like this, the other things that we often call prayer might be more accurately described by other words -- worship, meditate, contemplate, and so on. In normal usage, we might lump all of those into the single word pray, and expect others in our own tradition to be able to determine from context which aspect of prayer (in this broader and more modern sense) we're talking about.
But in a discussion with people of other traditions, where the context is limited and the presuppositions are so different, we can probably communicate more clearly and with less misunderstanding if we try to say exactly what we mean.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
I'm a Lutheran who -- gasp -- has sometimes asked for the intercession of the saints; again, in the same way I've asked Shipmates and other friends of mine to pray for particular people and situations; because, as has been noted, at least for those of us who affirm the concept of the Communion of Saints, the dead in Christ are alive in Christ. The metaphysics of how the BVM or any of the other "saints in light" can hear our requests for them to pray on our behalf is really not a question that keeps me up at night. We'll all find out someday.
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
A caution I'd like to put forward here, and something I've noted in other discussions: No matter what our Christian faith tradition, we tend to carry around with us theological baggage related to that tradition's origins, and also tend to respond to certain theological or ecclesiastical stimuli with certain emotional, knee-jerk reactions that aren't particularly helpful in achieving, if not agreement, then mutual understanding. I can understand why some may find the idea of saints' intercession on our behalf problematic in theological terms, but the strong emotional response this topic seems to elicit leads me to suggest that people need to step back from their own inherited assumptions about what other brands of Christian believe and do, and listen to what the other side is saying. I certainly grew up with a certain amount of culturally inherited suspicions about "praying to the saints" (a misunderstanding of what's going on, BTW), "using Mary to do an end run around God," etc.; and I've certainly met some less well catechized people in traditions that place a strong emphasis on our relationship with the saints, who get it wrong and do indeed have a childish and frankly idolatrous attitude about saints' intercession; but that doesn't negate the possibility that the saints do somehow hear us and intercede for us, the same way our Christian friends on this mortal coil do, nor does it mean that people in the more radical Protestant traditions don't have their own set of weak links in their theology and praxis.
And...in response to the observation that the saints are often invoked for "gimme" prayers: I'll just share that, one 2 a.m. or so, in the middle of a very low time in my recent past, and in the context of much very heartfelt prayer addressed directly to God, I also had a kind of internal one-way conversation with a fairly famous contemporary Christian who's been dead for several years now, whose life and written works have been a great inspiration to me, and who had struggled with some of the same issues that I was struggling with at that time. It was less a request for intercession and more a thank-you for his witness and example. Whether or not this saint of the Church heard me at all that dark morning, or if I was just engaging in some comforting happy talk to myself, is not a question I can answer with scientific certitude any more than any of us can "prove" that there is a God or that God hears our prayers. But at least for me, trying to understand my situation through the lens of faith, it was valuable to call on a departed brother in Christ at that moment, someone whom I know had lived through the same feelings I was feeling at that point and had overcome them.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
I think we have reached the traditional impass. Most of the Protestants put Jesus and the Bible as the highest authority in the matter of prayer and relationship with God, whereas some others place 'tradition' as an equal or higher authority. Our Lord taught us how to pray, he gave us a model and told us to whom we should pray (and in this he unsurpringly agrees with teh rest of scripture), you can ignore it (as some here have chosen to do).
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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sanc
Shipmate
# 6355
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Posted
In answer to my contention that Jewish faith has no precedence regarding praying to dead saints to interceed in our behalf Bonaventura replied:
quote:
by Bonaventura
Sorry, but this is bullshit. There is much evidence of similar practices in Judaism. No time to detail it now.
That's how protestants see it. There is no precedence. The scripture taught us in black in white to address our prayers to "Our FATHER in heaven." There is no single instance that prayer to GOD was coursed through any dead saints, not even angels.
Maybe you have the time now, instead of just invoking the shits of bulls.
Posts: 358 | From: Philippines | Registered: May 2004
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
I think we have reached the traditional impass. Most of the Protestants put Jesus and the Bible as the highest authority in the matter of prayer and relationship with God, whereas some others place 'tradition' as an equal or higher authority. Our Lord taught us how to pray, he gave us a model and told us to whom we should pray (and in this he unsurpringly agrees with the rest of scripture), you can ignore it (as some here have chosen to do).
These impasses sure are a bind, Komensky - but your digest of the foregoing discussion hardly helps, I'm afraid.
As even a cursory glance through this thread will make apparent to anyone with a shred of objectivity, no one is disputing that Our Lord is the supreme authority for His Church ("like, duh"). Tradition, as conceived by most non-Protestants, incorporates Scripture, as well as material form other holy sources (e.g., Apostolic practices, Council teachings, etc.)- so your dichotomy is nonsensical for Catholic/Orthodox bods.
Also, I'll just repeat for clarity that it would be odd in the extreme to construe Our Lord's instructions in prayer to exclude prayer to any other than God the Father. I mean, for starters, what about prayer directly to Jesus and the Holy Ghost? Let's just think about lex orandi, lex credendi. Think how massively impoverished volumes of evangelical and charismatic worship songs would be if all but prayers to the Father wer cut! And what about hymns such as "Lord Jesus, think on me" and "Come Holy Ghost, our souls inspire", and what about the Kyrie Eleison or the "Sinner's prayer"?
In sum, if Our Lord's words are not to be interpreted so strictly as to exclude petitioning Him and the Paraclete, they can't be used as evidence that prayer to God the Father alone is permitted, agreed?
There will certainly be an impasse if one side of the debate impugns the good faith of the other by imputing daft, heretical doctrines ("Those guys think Tradition's more important the Jesus!!!") to them without intra-thread evidence.
Let's try again, eh?
Bests,
CB
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Faithful Sheepdog
Shipmate
# 2305
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bonaventura:
quote:
Originally posted by sanc:
There is no precedence in the Jewish faith before the cross and a few centuries after that, that people are praying to the dead (or for the dead). This is a practice which is totally alien to the early church.
Sorry, but this is bullshit. There is much evidence of similar practices in Judaism. No time to detail it now.
Sanc's wording is a little confusing. Praying for the dead is a separate subject entirely and deserves its own thread. I believe that this practice within Judaism is well documented in the second temple period up to 70AD. It is linked to the Jewish belief in the general resurrection rather than any doctrine of purgatory.
As for praying to dead saints, requesting their intercession on our behalf and much else besides, even that they would "save" us (as per a liturgical prayer to the Theotokos in Orthodoxy), I too would like to hear the Jewish evidence on this, especially from the second temple period. A hasty dismissal of sanc's post as "bullshit" tells me nothing.
Neil
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"Random mutation/natural selection works great in folks’ imaginations, but it’s a bust in the real world." ~ Michael J. Behe
Posts: 1097 | From: Scotland | Registered: Feb 2002
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
I think we have reached the traditional impass. Most of the Protestants put Jesus and the Bible as the highest authority in the matter of prayer and relationship with God, whereas some others place 'tradition' as an equal or higher authority. Our Lord taught us how to pray, he gave us a model and told us to whom we should pray (and in this he unsurpringly agrees with teh rest of scripture), you can ignore it (as some here have chosen to do).
The only one here who is ignoring anything is you. You are ignoring civil questions put to you by other shipmates. You are ignoring their responses to your objections. You are ignoring their explanations of their practices.
Instead, you are throwing out comments that boil down to, "You're wrong, and you don't love God."
That level of conversation isn't even appropriate for an elementary school playground. I certainly expect better on the ship, from a fellow Christian.
If you have any desire to get past the impasse, and maybe reach some sort of mutual understanding, perhaps you could scroll back up this page a bit, and answer Eliab's question about which of those prayers you would consider illicit and why, or respond to my post immediately above his, where I asked if I understood your position correctly.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Faithful Sheepdog:
As for praying to dead saints, requesting their intercession on our behalf and much else besides, even that they would "save" us (as per a liturgical prayer to the Theotokos in Orthodoxy), I too would like to hear the Jewish evidence on this, especially from the second temple period.
Prayer to the saints is based on the Resurrection. Jesus rose from the dead. In rising, he destroyed death utterly, from the inside out. Therefore, it no longer has any power over us. The sting of death has been removed. We are no longer separated entirely from those who have gone on before.
Since the Jews of the second temple period (or any other) would disagree with the statement "Jesus rose from the dead," I would not expect them to believe anything after that statement. For the Jews, people who are dead are simply dead. For us, they are alive in Christ, who has conquered death. That difference in belief results in a difference in behavior. We pray to those who have preceded us in death, knowing that they are not truly dead. The Jews believe they are truly dead, so don't pray to them.
[ 11. December 2005, 14:19: Message edited by: josephine ]
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Faithful Sheepdog
Shipmate
# 2305
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by josephine:
Since the Jews of the second temple period (or any other) would disagree with the statement "Jesus rose from the dead," I would not expect them to believe anything after that statement. For the Jews, people who are dead are simply dead.
On this point I think you are fundamentally incorrect. A certain number of Jews from the second temple period clearly did accept that Jesus rose from the dead. They formed the nucleus of the early church, but continued to worship in the temple for as long as it existed, until it was destroyed in 70AD.
Speaking more generally, the second temple period is when many in the Jewish world (outside the Saducees) accepted a doctrine of general resurrection, based on texts such as Daniel 12:2. We find evidence for this belief in the gospels (see John 11:24) and elsewhere in the NT.
Whether contemporary rabbinic Judaism has maintained this belief in the general resurection I cannot say, but it was certainly there in the first century AD. Of course, Jews now (outside Messianics) do not accept the resurrection of Christ, any more than they accept he was the Messiah.
quote:
For us, they are alive in Christ, who has conquered death. That difference in belief results in a difference in behavior. We pray to those who have preceded us in death, knowing that they are not truly dead. The Jews believe they are truly dead, so don't pray to them.
That the faithful dead are alive in Christ is not something I dispute, but whether this alone justifies the difference in behaviour is the question at hand. I am particulary interested in any evidence from first century Judaism and the Jewish early church on this.
Many Jews in that period did not believe that any of the deceased were truly dead either. All had to face the general resurrection and the last judgement. As Christians we have inherited their beliefs in these areas.
Neil
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"Random mutation/natural selection works great in folks’ imaginations, but it’s a bust in the real world." ~ Michael J. Behe
Posts: 1097 | From: Scotland | Registered: Feb 2002
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Dobbo
Shipmate
# 5850
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Posted
quote:
Prayer to the Theotokos
Our most gracious Queen, our hope, O Theotokos, Who receivest the orphaned and art the intercessor for the stranger; the joy of those in sorrow, protectress of the wronged, see our distress, see our affliction! Help us, for we are helpless. Feed us, for we are strangers and pilgrims. Thou knowest our offences; forgive them , and resolve them as Thou dost will. For we know no other help but Thee, no other intercessor, no gracious comforter, only Thee, O Theotokos to guard and protect us for ages of ages. Amen.
Akathistos to the Mother of God
Mentioned at other web sites
If you do not want to read through the article the prayer is to the bottom of the pages.
I believe this prayer is used by both Roman Catholic and Orthodox?
I ask you is this really like asking someone to pray for you?
Or is it giving Mary characteristics that are God's?
I have made certain words of the text bold - ones that I thought would promote discussion.
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I'm holding out for Grace......, because I know who I am, and I hope I don't have to depend on my own religiosity
Bono
Posts: 395 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2004
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Bonaventura
Wise Drunkard
# 1066
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Faithful Sheepdog:
Sanc's wording is a little confusing. Praying for the dead is a separate subject entirely and deserves its own thread. I believe that this practice within Judaism is well documented in the second temple period up to 70AD. It is linked to the Jewish belief in the general resurrection rather than any doctrine of purgatory.
Indeed, prayers FOR the dead is evidenced by both 2 maccabees and indeed contemporary Judaism's "the mourner's kaddish"
quote:
As for praying to dead saints, requesting their intercession on our behalf and much else besides, even that they would "save" us (as per a liturgical prayer to the Theotokos in Orthodoxy), I too would like to hear the Jewish evidence on this, especially from the second temple period. A hasty dismissal of sanc's post as "bullshit" tells me nothing.
There is a terminal absence of liturgical texts from the second temple period, and a picture must be pieced together from other sources.
Qumran is one example, and the pseudo-epigraphia.
One of the earliest extant Jewish prayerbooks, the Seder Rav Amaram ha-Shalem, from the tenth century, (or earlier) do include the following prayer:
Ushers of mercy, usher in our mercy before the Merciful one.
Reciters of prayer, recite our prayer before the Hearer of prayer.
Sounders of cries, sound our cry before the Hearer of cries.
Ushers of tears, usher in our tears before the King who is appeased by tears.
Beseech and engage in lengthy entreaties and supplications before the lofty and towering King.
Utter to Him, sound to Him, the Torah and good deeds of those who dwell in the dust.
This do give evidence of angelic intercession being a part of Judaism. This coupled with evidence from the pseudo-epigrahia, like the books of Enoch, the Assumption of Moses, testament of Job and the like do show that angelic intercession was a part of the fabric of Judaism of the second-temple period, it may not have been a significant part nor a widely accepted one, but it was a part of Judaism.
Interestingly, devotion to the Matriarch Rachel was also present and reached a height during late antiquity. Truth to be told it never reached the height of Marian devotion, but it was there. Jews apparently still ask for her intercession:
"Tearfully we prayed with the utmost devotion, imploring Mother Rachel to once again intercede and make the Land of Israel safe for her children."
Source
Hassidic Jews are of course known for their devotion to saints, however that movement did not emerge for well over a millennium after the Death of Jesus, and does not really constitute evidence here.
Best,
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“I think you are all mistaken in your theological beliefs. The God or Gods of Christianity are not there, whether you call them Father, Son and Holy Spirit or Aunt, Uncle and Holy Cow.” -El Greco
Posts: 473 | From: Et in Arcadia requiesco | Registered: Feb 2004
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Chesterbelloc, I apoologise for the flipant nature of my previous response. I do feel that the thread has drifted from the subject of Mary to become a catologue of some of the more controversial aspects of the Roman Church in eyes of some Protestants and I am sorry for my part in derailing it.
Joshepine, you are a hysterical trouble-maker and teller of great fibs. I won't be responding to your outrages.
I thought very much about Mary in Church today and about her indespensible role in God's mysterious love for His people.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Hosting
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Joshepine, you are a hysterical trouble-maker and teller of great fibs. I won't be responding to your outrages.
This is a blatant violation of the Ship's third commandment. Personal attacks are completely unacceptable in Purgatory. Either take this sort of thing to Hell or don't post it at all.
RuthW
Purgatory host
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by josephine:[snip] ...Instead, you are throwing out comments that boil down to, "You're wrong, and you don't love God."
I never said or even intimated this.
quote:
That level of conversation isn't even appropriate for an elementary school playground. I certainly expect better on the ship, from a fellow Christian.
Exactly.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by josephine:[snip] ...Instead, you are throwing out comments that boil down to, "You're wrong, and you don't love God."
I never said or even intimated this.
quote:
That level of conversation isn't even appropriate for an elementary school playground. I certainly expect better on the ship, from a fellow Christian.
Exactly.
K.
Given that there is a Hell thread - take that fight there, Komensky. Do not continue with it here.
I've given up trying to predict the threads that turn into war zones. Can we please return to the topic now?
Duo Seraphim, Purgatory Host
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Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)
Posts: 7952 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Alex:
What do Protestants actually think the RC Church and other catholics are doing in promoting such belief? Do they think there is some conspiracy to undermine true faith (a house divided sprongs to mind though)?
I think the catholics (RC, AC and Orthodox) are promoting practices that they find helpful because they sincerely believe them on reasons that seem to be good. No conspiracy theories.
It doesn't mean that they aren't mistaken.
quote:
Or perhaps, after all, it is true!
'Perhaps it's true' is exactly right. Perhaps being the key word.
I am not at all uneasy about a catholic believing that Mary was sinless. Perhaps she was. I am uneasy about the claim that her sinlessness is 'known' and can be a 'certain' dogma.
I am still more uneasy about catholic pronouncements on such points, where it is clear that sincere disagreement within the Christian faith is possible, becoming a barrier to Christian unity. And there I have problems with the extremes of both sides - those that say 'you must accept the church's teaching that this is so' and those who say 'you cannot believe that and follow the Jesus of scripture'.
quote:
Originally posted by Dobbo:
Prayer to the Theotokos
[...]
For we know no other help but Thee, no other intercessor, no gracious comforter, only Thee, O Theotokos to guard and protect us for ages of ages.
I have no difficulty in principle with that. It seems to me readily comprehensible as poetic hyperbole.
I can truly address my wife as "my only love", even though I have innumerable other loves. The church can address Mary as "only intercessor and comforter" even though she has innumerable intercessors and comforters on earth and in heaven.
I could not, however, pray this myself, because I do not in fact ask Mary's intercession often enough to make the statement even poetically true.
quote:
Thou knowest our offences; forgive them , and resolve them as Thou dost will.
This I cannot comprehend or (pending explanation) agree with.
I suppose it might be asking Mary to forgive us offences against her personally - perhaps, the grief we cause her by rejecting her son - which would, after all, be only polite before going on to request something of her. Or it might be asking her to forgive in the way that a catholic might say 'Father, forgive ... ' to a priest - not asking for the personal indulgence of the priest as a man, but for a declaration of forgiveness by him as the minister of a forgiving God.
Either seems to me to stretch the apparent meaning a little too far.
E
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Yesterday, although The Salvation Army doesn't follow the liturgical year (though I do) I preached in ther evening about the annunciation.
I explained to them the real reason why Mary is called the Mother of God (it being more to do with Christ than her) and all the songs and carols (except one) referred to Mary. One song we sang as a congregation was 'Gabriel's Message' which has the words:
'For known a blessed mother thou shalt be;
All generations laud and honour thee:
Thy son shall be Emmanuel, by seers foretold.
Most highly favoured lady! Gloria!'
In my sermon I referred to Mary's extraordinary faith, her willingness to believe that God could use her and that whilst she was said to be 'Full of Grace', there was no reason to believe that she was/is the only one who can claim to be 'highly favoured' or 'full of grace' because, by being wholly sanctified (1Thess 5 v 23) we can all be full of grace - and we as Christians are all highly favoured.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
quote:
Thou knowest our offences; forgive them , and resolve them as Thou dost will.
This I cannot comprehend or (pending explanation) agree with.
I suppose it might be asking Mary to forgive us offences against her personally - perhaps, the grief we cause her by rejecting her son - which would, after all, be only polite before going on to request something of her. Or it might be asking her to forgive in the way that a catholic might say 'Father, forgive ... ' to a priest - not asking for the personal indulgence of the priest as a man, but for a declaration of forgiveness by him as the minister of a forgiving God.
Either seems to me to stretch the apparent meaning a little too far.
I too have problems with this kind of language. I tend to see it through your first explanation, if I don't dismiss outright it as inappropriate (as sometimes it very much seems to be). In place of your second, I'd say it was asking her to pray for our forgiveness to God. But it does come across as having gone too far in the direction of making Mary the "fourth person of the Trinity" as some anti-catholic wags have phrased it. I far prefer the wording in the (rather RC) rosary prayer: "Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death."
But to say "some Orthodox and some Roman Catholics go too far in their devotion to Mary" isn't terribly different from saying "some Protestants go too far in their esteem for the Bible." Some OC and RC are guilty of Mariolatry. Some Protestants are guilty of Bibliolatry. That a thing can be taken too far does not mean that it is bad in itself; only that it needs to exist within bounds. (Not accusing you of anything here, Eliab! Just using what I said in answer to your post as a springboard to a broader point.)
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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TomOfTarsus
Shipmate
# 3053
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Posted
Originally posted by Josephine:
quote:
For the Jews, people who are dead are simply dead.
[slight tangent]
Are you sure that's the case? I thought the Pharisees believed in a ressurection, and Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus seemed to be spoken in a way that the Pharisees could relate to - i.e. they believed in concious state following death. Or do you consider this to be new revelation on Christ's part?
Just curious, because I've often wondered about the Jewish connection....
Blessings,
Tom
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By grace are ye saved through faith... not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath ... ordained that we should walk in them.
Posts: 1570 | From: Pittsburgh, PA USA | Registered: Jul 2002
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TomOfTarsus
Shipmate
# 3053
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Posted
My previous post needs deleted (along with this one). Faithful sheepdog already raised the point.
My apologies, I didn't take time to read everything.
Tom
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By grace are ye saved through faith... not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath ... ordained that we should walk in them.
Posts: 1570 | From: Pittsburgh, PA USA | Registered: Jul 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TomOfTarsus:
My previous post needs deleted (along with this one). Faithful sheepdog already raised the point.
My apologies, I didn't take time to read everything.
Tom
As a matter of policy, we don't delete posts on these grounds.
RuthW
Purgatory host
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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