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Originally posted by Eliab:
A haggis does not have a face

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So you have never seen a wild haggis - like the uphill one that has shorter front legs so that it can run up hills and then it rolls down hills (or the clockwise and anticlockwise ones for that matter)

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I'm holding out for Grace......, because I know who I am, and I hope I don't have to depend on my own religiosity
Bono

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Originally posted by Dobbo:

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Originally posted by Eliab:
A haggis does not have a face

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So you have never seen a wild haggis - like the uphill one that has shorter front legs so that it can run up hills and then it rolls down hills (or the clockwise and anticlockwise ones for that matter)

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Originally posted by St. Sebastian:
One thing that I don't understand (no, I still haven't read St. John's book) is why so many of our prayers end with , "through the Theotokos, save us". I know we're not saying that He has to save us through her, but I'm not sure what we are saying.

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Originally posted by St. Sebastian:
so have I. What I meant to get at was the implication that somehow they are required or necessary.

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Originally posted by Carys:

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Originally posted by Dobbo:
You led me to a pet hate of mine

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Josephine
It's God who saves us through baptism

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I get very upset when baptism is linked to salvation when I think of all those that have been aborted. As a protestant, not holding to baptism being anything other than an outward sign, I have no problem in being able to say I know God will have saved all these ones as He did with David’s son – but what happens when you make baptism a requirement of salvation, can you have that same certainty – because there certainly is no baptismal font in the abortion clinics. Did God have them conceived just so that they have a lost eternity.

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I think paragraph 1257 of Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church answers this point well

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1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.[59] He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.[60] Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.[61] The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

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Carys

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teaching is to the effect that those dying with only original sin on their souls will suffer "no other pain, whether from material fire or from the worm of conscience, except the pain of being deprived forever of the vision of God" (Corp. Juris, Decret. l. III, tit. xlii, c. iii -- Majores).

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Weed
It wasn’t lying to say x happened even if x never happened, as long as x was the meaning of whatever non-X thing had happened.

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If (for the sake of argument) the story of Mary living in the Holy of Holies is untrue (and I suspect it is) then it does her no honour. It is a lie, even if it is a pious lie. Maybe it is a lie from which some people can glean symbolic truth. That's no excuse for presenting it as historical fact, if it is not. And it seems to me to be unnecessary - what matters about Mary is that she said 'yes' to God and because of that he became incarnate as our Saviour. The magic stories about her seem to me to be much less worthy than the plain fact of her goodness.

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O Angel of Christ, my holy Guardian and Protector of my soul and body, forgive me all my sins of today . Deliver me from all the wiles o the enemy, that I may not anger my God by any sin. Pray for me, sinful and unworthy servant, that thou mayest present me worthy of the kindness and mercy of the All-holy Trinity and the Mother of my Lord Jesus Christ, and of all the Saints. Amen

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Have you wandered away from Heaven, by chance?

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Originally posted by Dobbo:
I think what you can get away with in poetry per Eliab is not something you can in other forms of writing.

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O Angel of Christ, my holy Guardian and Protector of my soul and body, forgive me all my sins of today . Deliver me from all the wiles o the enemy, that I may not anger my God by any sin. Pray for me, sinful and unworthy servant, that thou mayest present me worthy of the kindness and mercy of the All-holy Trinity and the Mother of my Lord Jesus Christ, and of all the Saints. Amen [QUOTE]Now no matter what you say about essence or energies - can angels really forgive sins - again I fall into the camp of the pharisee (bad company I know) but "who can forgive sins but God only"

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Josephine having gone into the texts about Paul saving by jealousy and husbands and wives saving each other - I think what it is suggesting is by personal physical witness they are seen to be working out God's salvation. I think if you are trying to infer that we can save or show mercy I think it is inaccurate - as it is said "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy" and that is not Mary speaking for clarification purposes.

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Originally posted by Josephine:

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Originally posted by Dobbo:
I think what you can get away with in poetry per Eliab is not something you can in other forms of writing.

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That's true in our literary traditions. But I know that there are other literary traditions that don't make as much of a distinction between poetic forms and prose forms, and I think you have to understand any literature in the context of the literary tradition in which it was written.

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It is a lie, even if it is a pious lie.

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But, Dobbo, if your brother sins against you, on the authority of our Lord Jesus himself, you are to forgive him seventy times seven times. And he taught us to pray, "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." So it's not God only who forgives sins, but each of us has to forgive sins when we are sinned against.

So how do we sin against our guardian angels? Certainly, when we do things that make their jobs more difficult, we are sinning against them.

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When our Lord said, "blessed are the merciful," is he not saying that we should show mercy?

Again, when Paul says, and we say, that someone or something other than God saves us, we understand that the someone or something is working with God to effect our salvation. They're being used by God, if you want to think of it that way -- but not against their will, or without their free choice and participation

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I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you;" (Luke 15:18 - RSV)

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Originally posted by Isaac David:
Dear Dobbo, Josephine and St. Sebastian

Concerning both the intercession and the forgiveness of the Mother of God, the Holy Fathers, our Holy Guardian Angel, etc, it may be useful to remember that according to the Orthodox Church we are never alone, either in being saved, or in sinning.

There are many prayers which invoke the intercessions of other members of the Church. In the Morning Prayers we pray not only for the clergy, but ask that God may have mercy on us by their prayers. The same is true in regard to our spiritual fathers (usually our priest/confessor). Although it is God who saves us, He saves us in communion with others, and this mutual prayer and request for prayer is an expression of this communion.

Similarly, when I sin against you, I sin not only against God, but against the whole community of earth and heaven. Remember that the Prodigal Son said

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I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you;" (Luke 15:18 - RSV)

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My sin, even if committed in secret, is perhaps rather like a sneeze, which spreads my sickness to others. Another aspect of this 'communion' of sin is shown in the life of Elder Paisios of Mount Athos who used to condemn himself when another monk sinned.

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Against You, You only, I have sinned
And done what is evil in Your sight,
So that You are justified when You speak
And blameless when You judge.

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My sin, even if committed in secret, is perhaps rather like a sneeze, which spreads my sickness to others

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Does that mean sin could have infected Mary from external sources?

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I'm holding out for Grace......, because I know who I am, and I hope I don't have to depend on my own religiosity
Bono

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Originally posted by Dobbo:
So how a prayer can ask an angel to forgive all sins is beyond me.

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For example one of the greek words for mercy - is hilaskomai - which is used in the publicans prayer and it includes the idea of propitiation - are you saying that Mary or ta Guardian Angel can show that type of mercy ie propitiate away our sins. Surely that is what Christ did on the cross of Calvary? Is it appropriate to ask for mercy from Mary in that context?

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Originally posted by Dobbo:
Does God's salvation require others to be involved in salvation?

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Presumably the angel is offended by every single one of your sins, so you may ask the angel's forgiveness of all of them. The thing is, you seem to keep thinking that things are mutually exclusive, that it has to be one way or the other. You seem to think that, if we ask the angel's forgiveness, we won't be asking God's forgiveness. Which is absurd. We ask the angel's forgiveness, AND we ask God's forgiveness

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Originally by Mousethief
I too have problems with this kind of language.
<snip>
But it does come across as having gone too far in the direction of making Mary the "fourth person of the Trinity" as some anti-catholic wags have phrased it.
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But to say "some Orthodox and some Roman Catholics go too far in their devotion to Mary" isn't terribly different from saying "some Protestants go too far in their esteem for the Bible." Some OC and RC are guilty of Mariolatry. Some Protestants are guilty of Bibliolatry.
<snip>

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Presumably the angel is offended by every single one of your sins, so you may ask the angel's forgiveness of all of them.

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Dobbo, I'm sorry, but this is getting frustrating. You seem to be stuck on the idea that we must be idolators, that we must give Mary or the other saints or the angels something that is the exclusive prerogative of God.

And every time we go through it in exhaustive, and exhausting, detail, you seem willing to concede that, while we may see things a little differently, we're not idolators after all.

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perhaps you would explain how you reconcile your opinion of Mary being able to forgive sins with the pharisees suggesting that only God can forgive sins

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Originally posted by Dobbo:

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Presumably the angel is offended by every single one of your sins, so you may ask the angel's forgiveness of all of them.

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How do you reconcile that with the concept that of the pharisees - "who can forgive sin but God only" - you see my understanding of this text exalts Christ to the divine ie yes only God can truly forgive sins - ipso facto Christ is God-

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I keep going back to this because you have not given what you understand of this text. You have given me other texts but you have not actually explained what you understand this text to mean?

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for example - I have shown that merciful - incorporates propitiation - ie something that Christ carried out and when you address a prayer saying "all-merciful Theotokos" you are incorporating all aspects of mercy to Mary - are you saying that Mary propitiated away our sins?

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Originally posted by Isaac David:
I haven't now the time to pursue your other points, but they are similar. You focus on isolated questions, we look at things holistically. Maybe that is why we don't understand one another.

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And what have I said?

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Josephine
If you would do us the kindness of changing your default position

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If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

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Josephine
To answer your question: If we describe a person as "all-merciful," we simply means that there is never a time or a situation when that person fails to show mercy. That's all. It doesn't mean that we are confusing Mary with her Son. We know the difference. Honestly, we do. Please trust us that far.

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You have me totally confused here. You agree that you could forgive your sister-in-law were she to sin against your brother. She would also need your brother's forgiveness, and she would need God's forgiveness. So would there be a problem if, in addition to the above, not instead of, but in addition to, your sister-in-law also asked the forgiveness of her guardian angel?

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It seems like you are treating grace as a synonym for forgiveness. It isn't. Not at all. Mary didn't need to be forgiven, because she didn't sin. But she needed grace in order not to sin. And she needed grace because, like the rest of us, she was born in a sinful world with a mortal body subject to sickness, corruption, and death.

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Josephine
I think it means that the Pharisees believed that only God could forgive sins.

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Isaac David
Dobbo is trying to understand/critique our beliefs about the Mother of God by resorting to isolated Bible verses and the meanings of individual words. It is rather like trying to understand a painting by examining brush strokes

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I like to think of it as trying to explore those who venerate Mary , not simply an orthodox viewpoint, and try to establish a systematic theology. I suppose I would rather consider the analogy of analyzing a piece of prose and looking at sentences and meanings – because a prayer is a form of correspondence and the way we should look at it in what language is used, lets say it is a type of textual criticism.

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Originally posted by Dobbo:
1)Am I neglecting part of my requirement of salvation by not asking for forgiveness of sins from Mary or a Guardian Angel – is this core or superfluous?

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Originally posted by Mousethief:

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Originally posted by Dobbo:
1)Am I neglecting part of my requirement of salvation by not asking for forgiveness of sins from Mary or a Guardian Angel – is this core or superfluous?

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Are those my only choices? What an impoverished spiritual life it would be if that were so.

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Already the fact that one part of this broad Christian world outside the Church, namely the whole of Protestantism, denies the bond with the heavenly Church, that is, the veneration in prayer of the Mother of God and the saints, and likewise prayer for the dead, indicates that they themselves have destroyed the bond with the one Body of Christ which unites in itself the heavenly and the earthly

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Originally by Isaac David
Textual criticism cannot ignore context. If you don't take the Orthodox context into consideration, for example, how can your analysis avoid meaning merely "Orthodox veneration of Mary isn't Protestant"?

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Isaac David
Such close analysis may suit the Protestant theological temperament, but it doesn't work very well for the Orthodox.

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Some few patristic writers expressed their doubts as to the presence of minor moral defects in Our Blessed Lady. St. Basil, e.g., suggests that Mary yielded to doubt on hearing the words of holy Simeon and on witnessing the crucifixion. St. John Chrysostom is of opinion that Mary would have felt fear and trouble, unless the angel had explained the mystery of the Incarnation to her, and that she showed some vainglory at the marriage feast in Cana and on visiting her Son during His public life together with the brothers of the Lord. St. Cyril of Alexandria speaks of Mary's doubt and discouragement at the foot of the cross. But these Greek writers cannot be said to express an Apostolic tradition, when they express their private and singular opinions.

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Originally posted by Mousethief:

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Originally posted by Dobbo:
1)Am I neglecting part of my requirement of salvation by not asking for forgiveness of sins from Mary or a Guardian Angel – is this core or superfluous?

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Are those my only choices? What an impoverished spiritual life it would be if that were so.

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Originally posted by Dobbo:

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Josephine
If you would do us the kindness of changing your default position

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I suppose I will answer with a question

Would you and the others of the Orthodox faith extend to us that same kindness by showing those outside the Orthodox Church the courtesy of accepting us as part of the visible true historic church and declare that we are not heterodox?

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Originally posted by mdijon:
because we are not definitely Orthodox.

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Says who? Capital letters are a poor way of distinguishing categories.

Serious question, though, for the Orthodox Shipmates. Consider a person who was Orthodox in all other ways, but would not venerate icons even though they accepted it as a legitimate, even helpful, thing for most Christians to do.

Given that reception of the Body and Blood of Christ is normatively necessary for salvation, and that said Sacrament is only to be found within the Church, and the Church is identical with the Orthodox Church, how can the exclusion of such a person be justified if the veneration of icons is not also considered to be normatively necessary for salvation?

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Originally posted by mdijon:
I'm shocked.

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There's a very proper difference between Orthodox and orthodox. This can be judged by the Church according to it's Tradition.

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What I said:
Textual criticism cannot ignore context. If you don't take the Orthodox context into consideration, for example, how can your analysis avoid meaning merely "Orthodox veneration of Mary isn't Protestant"?

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Your reply:
So you are saying that Eliab did not have the right to criticise poetry by Robert Burns on this thread because he is not Scottish (AFAIK)?

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I am not interested in whether the veneration of Mary is not protestant but if it is in accordance with the bible

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Isaac you never really replied to my previous response

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you used the term "being saved" does that mean that salvation is not something that happens once

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are you saying that the Orthodox faith does not handle biblical scrutiny well? Whereas porotestant [sic] theology does?

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Originally posted by Mousethief:
GreyFace, I don't accept your category, "normative for salvation." The thief on the cross didn't take communion.

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Originally posted by Mousethief:
Neither. I'm saying God saves whomsoever he wants to save, and in whatever way it tickles his fancy. Our churchiosity mustn't presume to put limits on God's power and love.

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Originally posted by Mousethief:
HTH (but not counting on it, alas)

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Originally posted by josephine:

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Originally posted by Dobbo:

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Josephine
If you would do us the kindness of changing your default position

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I suppose I will answer with a question

Would you and the others of the Orthodox faith extend to us that same kindness by showing those outside the Orthodox Church the courtesy of accepting us as part of the visible true historic church and declare that we are not heterodox?

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Rather different, Dobbo. My default position about other Christians is that each one of them, including you, is doing the best they can to love and serve God, within the limits of what they know and have learned and have experienced. We may have differences of opinion regarding one thing or another, including a difference about how the Church is to be defined. For me to say that my default position is that Orthodox Church is the Church is not to say that you are in grievous sin because you disagree with my opinion on this subject. For you to say that your default position is that I am an idolator is to say that I am in grievous sin, in violation of one of the Ten Commandments, because I disagree with your opinion of the subject.

And your making light of the accusation by saying, well, you watch too much TV, hardly softens the accusation. Either you have no idea what the worship of God is supposed to be like, if you think you give the TV worship that belongs to God alone. But maybe that's the problem here -- maybe you think you worship the TV and I worship the saints because you still don't know what worship is.

Look at it this way, Dobbo. If I'm wrong about the limits of the Church, I'm wrong about the limits of the Church. It's like being mistaken about whether a house is inside or outside the city limits. But if you're wrong about whether or not I'm an idolator, you're guilty of bearing false witness about me. And, frankly, I'm tired of it.

I may or may not respond to your other points later. I've got to get kids ready to go.

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Dobbo, how did you get from my dislike for the bare-bones dichotomy "necessary" versus "superfluous" to thinking that I wanted to be worshipped like Satan? (Or indeed, to even talking about Satan?) It's hard to follow an argument that wanders like the dotted line left by a Family Circus kid.

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Isaac David
No it doesn't happen once, it is a process

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what gives you the right to expect me to give up the protestant tradition of personally interpretating the scriptures, as per sola scriptura et al?

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if we explore that further on another thread [i.e. that salvation doesn't happen once, but is a process] it may be interesting because what it seems to mean is that your definition of salvation probably incorporates more than what a protestant would perceive as salvation.

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