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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Capital Punishment debate
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I think the 'they might not be guilty' argument is a bit of a blind alley. There is no way anyone can ever devise a system in which you could ensure no innocent person was ever wrongfully convicted and punished. And this means that innocent people die in jail of old age, sickness and murder as well as capital punishment.
I personally oppose capital punishment. I think the attempt to make the anti-argument is undermined by arguing about the killing of the innocent because it becomes a 'how sure are you ?' debate.
I think the argument about capital punishment in order to avoid overspill of the lynch-mob mentality, is fundementally an argument for trying to change the lynch-mob mentality.
For those who are pro: What is the point of capital punishment ? What exactly do you hope to achieve ? In terms of the individual perpetrator, in terms the surviving victim and/or those who had ties to the victim, and in terms of society as a whole ?
What do you do if your goals for these different people and groups conflict ? What is your priority ? To take one of the examples discussed above, would you still want this punishment if it decreases convictions ? Would you want it if it decreased the murder by 50% rate but increased the number of police officers killied in shoot-outs during arrests ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
...For those who are pro: What is the point of capital punishment ? What exactly do you hope to achieve ? In terms of the individual perpetrator, in terms the surviving victim and/or those who had ties to the victim, and in terms of society as a whole ?
These questions have been answered.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Sharkshooter:
quote:
It's not that I will ignore your question, but I have taken the position that hypothetical questions, especially ones such as the one you posed which are intended only to provide the worst possible scenario for the sole purpose of winning an argument, are to be treated rhetorically.
I think you have misunderstood me. I'm not waiting for you to say: "Of course I wouldn't burn incense to the Emperor" and then pounce and triumphantly announce: "Ha! Sharkshooter won't burn incense to the Emperor, therefore he condones perverse verdicts in capital trials!"* Obviously the two positions are completely different. What I want to do is establish whether there are some areas in which you think it licit to disobey, or at least not enforce, the law and, if so, explore what makes it licit and what not.
Obviously I want to win the argument. ![[Biased]](wink.gif) But I'm subtle enough not to aim for Mate in four moves, as it were.
*Tempting though it would be.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
I have a conscience, but if I am required to apply a particular law, I do so - that is my duty. My opinion is irrelevant.
As Callan says, per impossibile. Who's requiring you to do that? It is not a juror's only role in the U.S. Don't let the obscurantists trick you into assuming otherwise.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
...For those who are pro: What is the point of capital punishment ? What exactly do you hope to achieve ? In terms of the individual perpetrator, in terms the surviving victim and/or those who had ties to the victim, and in terms of society as a whole ?
These questions have been answered.
Really, all I could find was:
"And I don't care whether it is a deterrent or not. It is intended as punishment and protection for society. That's good enough for me."
So protection for society and punishment for the perpetrator - but what if about the decreasing conviction rate when the penalty is applied to a wider range of crimes ?
"Really really bad people sometimes need to be executed because sometimes they escape and sometimes soft-hearted idiots let them out to kill again. The state has an obligation to ensure they will never hurt anyone again."
Protection again but seemingly because there is a lack of faith in the life sentence.
"Therefore, I support having the death penalty on the books. It strikes me as being less bad than the alternative."
Answered this in my last post.
"There seems to be something unjust about someone who kills many, and therefore is responsible not only for many deaths but the ongoing suffering of many families, ending up receiving the same punishment as someone who has killed one person."
Where does this leave you is deciding how to punish the the guy responsible for the Dunablane massacre (goes into classroom shoots kids, leaves), the Wests (stalked young women abducted then raped and tortured them for some time killing somewhat less people in total than in Dunblane), Shipman (gives elderly people morphine overdose - relatively painless - but kills about 200), man who sexually abuses daughter throughout childhood then kills her in a drunken rage after she turns 18. Are such calculations really meaningful ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
I think the argument about capital punishment in order to avoid overspill of the lynch-mob mentality, is fundementally an argument for trying to change the lynch-mob mentality.
I was told the same sort of thing when I started on a research project some years ago. The project had to do with writing medical information for adults with poor reading skills. I was told that, instead of trying to present complex medical information at a fourth grade level, we should be working to ensure greater literacy.
Which is true. But what do we do until then? I think we have to provide for the situation as it is, not for the situation as we would wish it to be. Which means that we have to make sure that middle-aged diabetics who read at a fifth grade level can read the instructions they get from their doctor.
As long as there are people with a lynch-mob mentality (and I've known a few of them), I think we have to take their existence into account. It's possible, of course, that my perceptions are skewed, that the people who hold "Fry Him Now!" placards outside a penitentiary would never do anything illegal to act on their feelings of rage, and that banning capital punishment altogether would not result in an increase in vigilantism. I would like that to be true. But I'm not sure that it is.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
josephine, something just seems very odd about the idea of being in favor of capital punishment because you're opposed to vigilanism. i mean, while there are exceptions, as far as i know the major victems of lynching in the past were southern blacks, and frequently they were lynched for "crimes" which were by no rational measure capital crimes, for example emmitt till, who was lynched for the "crime" of whistling at a white woman. i have never heard of any increase in lynching, or in fact, in the modern day, any lynching problem at all, in states which do not have the death penalty.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I am completely with you on the clear communication.
Lynching is murder. (Anybody ever hang the lynch mob ?) Other ways to prevent it might be police protection, protective custody etc. I am not convinced that the death penalty is the most effective or appropriate way to deal with the risk. Think how much the legal process up to execution costs, you could spend half this on defendent protection.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by josephine:
what do we do until then? I think we have to provide for the situation as it is, not for the situation as we would wish it to be... As long as there are people with a lynch-mob mentality (and I've known a few of them), I think we have to take their existence into account.
As people of faith, we also need to take Christ's existence into account. As much as you and I want to reject and repudiate the lynch-mob mentality, I don't think that we should dare to claim that we have no part in it, it's just those certain other people over there. The thirst and process of human sacrifice is a universal feature in society. And it's part of what Christ overcame. If we believe that Jesus Christ was God among us, that He submitted Himself as a sacrifice, thereby triumphing and inaugurating a new era in human history, what does that mean? Rene Girard shows how, although His sacrifice was prefigured many times in literature and folklore, when it occurred it was the human sacrifice intended to end all human sacrifices.
When you observe that capital punishment slakes the thirst of a lynch mob, you've put your finger on it. Girard holds, I agree, and you admit, that the two come from exactly the same place in social psychology. But I believe that Christ walked among us to bring an end to it. For a professing Christian ever to propose the death sentence in God's name strikes me as not only doubting that what He did was efficacious, but rejoicing that it was not.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
For a professing Christian ever to propose the death sentence in God's name strikes me as not only doubting that what He did was efficacious, but rejoicing that it was not.
Seriously misguided perhaps but, 'rejoicing' ? Seems a bit of an overstatement.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by nicolemrw:
josephine, something just seems very odd about the idea of being in favor of capital punishment because you're opposed to vigilanism.
I know. A lot of my positions are very odd. I favor both chastity and the free availability of condoms. I don't think people should use drugs, but I support needle exchange programs.
In the same way, I'm opposed to capital punishment, but I'm in favor of leaving it on the books as a potential penalty for certain particularly heinous crimes. In all these cases, I'm looking for the least bad option, the option that produce the least amount of harm. I just have a gut feeling that, in the US, fewer people accused of crimes would be killed if capital punishment remains a possibility than would be killed if it is not.
I would never propose capital punishment in God's name. (And, Callan, I expect better from you in a debate.) It may be that I am entirely wrong, and that there is good evidence that eliminating the possibility of capital punishment would not produce the consequences I fear. I would be pleased if that were true.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
Dear Josephine,
I do appreciate and respect the nuanced and reluctant position you take on this issue.
Aside from my Christian convictions, the main reason why I have come to oppose capital punishment (I used to be okay with it) is messages that one can read in cyberspace from some of its proponents. They have convinced me that where it is a reality at all, the sentiment for it spreads. Let us pray that they do not get the upper hand in our societies as they have in others in history; but even when they do not, their chest-thumping one-upmanship in trying to outdo one another in how "tough on crime" they want to appear coarsens our entire civil discourse. It is not the way we should discuss politics and justice.
The last straw for me was when a man representing himself as a candidate for sheriff in one of our major metropolitan counties swaggeringly called for the death penalty for, among other things, a second offense of marijuana possession. Now, I don't want to elect anyone as an officer of the law who harbors such desires. I don't think that the good people of Kansas City would knowingly do so, either. I don't know whether he was a serious candidate, but if he were posting under a pseudonym he could have been. For all I know, in that case, he may even have been elected and wielding firearms in their name today.
Perhaps you have led too sheltered an existence. Our social circles in real life have probably always been limited to relatively "nice people." And in cyberspace, Shipmates are not a cross-section of the body politic, either. But the Internet provides an easier way to sample the ventings and rantings of various fellow citizens than we've ever had before. Get out there and read what people say in a few less civilized fora, and I trust that you may become as disgusted as I have become.
Even though I really don't feel, either, that capital punishment for terrorist mass murder would be an egregious miscarriage of justice, I'll gladly settle for less even then if it would put the whole practice firmly beyond the pale. Most countries in the West already manage quite nicely without it. Retaining it leaves the U.S. in a very weak position whenever we try to stand up for human rights in foreign policy.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
Just a Virginia update: in VA what happened was that the state Republicans suggested that the Democratic candidate (who won, btw, in spite of this) was scary in his principled opposition to the death penalty on religious grounds. Mr. Kaine, a devout Catholic, had said that as governor, he would uphold the law, though he opposed CP on religious grounds. Opponents suggested in a subtle gambit that this meant he would pardon Adolf Hitler.
Thankfully the voters were not swayed by the smear campaign.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
While pleased to have re-invigorated the debate on this touchy subject, I am still apalled that many erstwhile 'civilized' countries outside the US, such as Japan, still have CP on their books.
In addition to my spiritual opposition to it, I have an economic opposition: did you know that it can cost in excess of a million US dollars to prosecute a capital case to its conclusion, the execution of an inmate? It takes years, sometimes decades! Where's the deterrent there?
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Josephine:
quote:
I would never propose capital punishment in God's name. (And, Callan, I expect better from you in a debate.) It may be that I am entirely wrong, and that there is good evidence that eliminating the possibility of capital punishment would not produce the consequences I fear. I would be pleased if that were true.
Where did I say you were advocating capital punishment in God's name? I was merely pointing to evidence that suggests that abolishing capital punishment does not produce the consequences you fear - to wit, the experience of Western Europe over the last generation. I added for good measure that capital punishment has been abolished in states with previous experience of tyranny or ethnic conflict who would have better cause than most to be concerned about vigilantism. I fail to see how that is somehow inappropriate.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
The cost is the result of what most people would consider to be reasonable aspects of justice. That the accused be given a fair trial, and that if found guilty that the punishment is appropriate.
Part of a fair trial is, in most countries, a right to appeal if found guilty. Ideally, of course, all available evidence is presented to the jury at the trial. But it's not an ideal world and for various legitimate reasons evidence turns up after the trial that would have been relevant. Even without new evidence, an appeal takes time to organise. It's not unreasonable when the punishment is something as irreversible as a death sentance to have a period of incarceration prior to the execution to allow any new evidence to be brought forward and an appeal to be lodged and heard.
Also, like ensuring the trial is fair, an appeals process against the sentance (be that the death penalty or not) is a reasonable step in ensuring that the penalty is fair. Which, again takes time and money.
Even without the death penalty, much of the costs would be the same. You'd still have the accused in prison for the duration of the appeals process. You'd still have prosecution and defense lawyers employed.
The only way of significantly cutting costs would be to not take so many steps to try and ensure that the trial and sentancing is as fair as humanly possible.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
The death penalty is extremely consequentialist, it seems to me.
If there was a way to ensure that judges and juries were never biased, and never made mistakes, then maybe I would support it for mass murderers who were in full possesion of their faculties when commiting their crimes AND are extremely likely to kill again AND do not have a low mental age. Maybe. I must admit that I think Hussein, for example, deserves to die.
But since there is no way of making the judical system infallable, and since the death penalty is pretty final once it has been carried out, I think that, on balance, it is more reasonable to oppose it then to support it.
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Infinite Penguins.
My "Readit, Swapit" page
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Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
quote:
I know. A lot of my positions are very odd.
while i appreciate the fact that i you understand many of your opnions seem odd, i think i would more appreciate some comment on the rest of my post.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
I agree with Papio. There's alot of crims I would not miss if they were gone, I just don't want to be involved in their death. Again, just make their lives unpleasant: let them live in filth, eat bad meals, isolate them from the general population, deny all visitors, censor all post, bill their familkies for their incarceration or seize assets, etc.
[ 18. November 2005, 10:19: Message edited by: Sir Kevin ]
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
Where's the deterrent there?
It's not called capital deterrent, is it?
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
I'm against capital punishment because: - Even when DNA evidence determines that the perpetrator has committed the crime, it's very hard to determine whether he/she was legally insane at the moment. (Able to determine right from wrong).
- Many criminals find the thought of life in prison far more of a deterrent than the thought of death, which they see as a rather romantic and dramatic end to their troubles. This is clearly evidenced by the number of suicides and suicide attempts, in jail. If we make prisons less pleasant, while keeping them humane, they will be even more of a deterrent.
- It costs more money to execute a prisoner than keep him for life.
- By keeping capital punishment in our legal system, the United States aligns itself with countries that keep barbaric punishments alive, such as amputating limbs for the crime of theft.
- The practice panders to some of our lowest instincts for revenge and vigilantism.
- By passing a sentence of death onto our fellow man we are edging into the sort of judgment only God should make.
- We are asking the executor to kill in cold blood. That is something I would not want to do, and so, feel it is wrong to ask another to do in my stead.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
... - We are asking the executor to kill in cold blood. That is something I would not want to do, and so, feel it is wrong to ask another to do in my stead.
I would not want to do open-heart surgery, or a host of other jobs.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Exiled Youth
Shipmate
# 8744
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
... - We are asking the executor to kill in cold blood. That is something I would not want to do, and so, feel it is wrong to ask another to do in my stead.
I would not want to do open-heart surgery, or a host of other jobs.
I seem to recall a system where three men in three rooms throw switches at the same time, and none ever discover which one was actually wired. Each is paid 500 dollars or something.
Posts: 411 | From: Home Sweet Home | Registered: Nov 2004
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I'm against capital punishment because: - By passing a sentence of death onto our fellow man we are edging into the sort of judgment only God should make.
Amen. That's one reason I've always been against abortion, also.
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Exiled Youth:
I seem to recall a system where three men in three rooms throw switches at the same time, and none ever discover which one was actually wired. Each is paid 500 dollars or something.
If we're concerned about the moral implications of the person who, as it were, pushes the button, what are the implications for the designer of this system?
T.
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
Very grave: it sounds like turning execution into sport!
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
... - We are asking the executor to kill in cold blood. That is something I would not want to do, and so, feel it is wrong to ask another to do in my stead.
I would not want to do open-heart surgery, or a host of other jobs.
There's a big difference between not wanting to perform a job because we're too unqualified, frightened or squeamish to do it; and not wanting to do it because we're afraid we just might possibly go to Hell* for it.
Or damage one's karma, or become less close to God, or become less human or not sleep as well at night -- however one defines a peaceful soul.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
That's a better explanation than "I wouldn't want to do" now, isn't it? Still doesn't make it much of an excuse, though, as there are people who would do the job.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Sharkshooter: you seem to be saying, if I understand your rather concise comments correctly, that the main point of capital punishment is the suffering of the offender. Not the deterence, not the prevention of further crimes, not 'closure' for the victim of their family.
In what respect do you reach achieve this goal more fully through killing them rather than imprisoning them until they die ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by nicolemrw:
while i appreciate the fact that i you understand many of your opnions seem odd, i think i would more appreciate some comment on the rest of my post.
It is perhaps because I am a white Southern woman, and understand that most victims of lynchings were black Southern men, and because I have not led a particularly sheltered existence and know a fair number of people whose attitudes towards blacks in general and poor black men in particular are less than enlightened, that I am more concerned about the possibility of lynchings than I would be if I were from Iowa or Minnesota.
You may never have heard people whom you considered decent, kind, and respectable say things about blacks that should be unspeakable. I have. It's true you don't hear them very often any more. But I don't know how much that's because hearts and minds have changed, and how much it's because it's no longer socially acceptable to say such things. I'm sure it's some of each.
My fear is that it's still more social pressure than true change -- the pressure is facilitating the change, but that takes time, and I don't think enough time has passed yet for those thoughts and feelings to have been eradicated. I fear that a particularly heinous crime, committed by a black man against a white girl, could overcome the social pressures if there were no possibility that justice, as defined by the mob, might be done. I think simply having the death penalty on the books is enough to keep the the unspeakable from being spoken and acted upon.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Sharkshooter: you seem to be saying, if I understand your rather concise comments correctly, that the main point of capital punishment is the suffering of the offender. Not the deterence, not the prevention of further crimes, not 'closure' for the victim of their family.
...
Still haven't read the whole thread, or the other one, have you?
I see two purposes for capital punishment - punishment (this should be obvious) and protection of society (which is why I know you haven't read the thread).
If it has deterrence or closure value, so much the better, but I do not see that as a purpose.
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
In what respect do you reach achieve this goal more fully through killing them rather than imprisoning them until they die ?
Either you achieve the goal(s) or you don't. There is not, in my mind, a "more fully" issue here.
There are some crimes where I believe execution is the proper punishment - it stands to reason, therefore, that, in my mind, life imprisonment is inadequate.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I'm against capital punishment because: - Even when DNA evidence determines that the perpetrator has committed the crime, it's very hard to determine whether he/she was legally insane at the moment. (Able to determine right from wrong).
- Many criminals find the thought of life in prison far more of a deterrent than the thought of death, which they see as a rather romantic and dramatic end to their troubles. This is clearly evidenced by the number of suicides and suicide attempts, in jail. If we make prisons less pleasant, while keeping them humane, they will be even more of a deterrent.
- It costs more money to execute a prisoner than keep him for life.
- By keeping capital punishment in our legal system, the United States aligns itself with countries that keep barbaric punishments alive, such as amputating limbs for the crime of theft.
- The practice panders to some of our lowest instincts for revenge and vigilantism.
- By passing a sentence of death onto our fellow man we are edging into the sort of judgment only God should make.
- We are asking the executor to kill in cold blood. That is something I would not want to do, and so, feel it is wrong to ask another to do in my stead.
A few questions/comments from your post:
Does it really matter if someone is insane/psychotic? I never understood that distinction. If you are a massive threat to society, you're a massive threat to society, off with you.
Costs: It costs more because the system is set up that way. Some costs are necessary to protect society.
The U.S. aligns itself with plenty of countries that do bad things. China being a giant case study right now. Does that mean we should stop trading with them? Hell no. Doesn't mean we should stop executing either.
God is hardly a shining example of not doing executions. He has "ordered" way more than his fair share of executions. And he even ordered HIS humans to do it (Israelites).
You ask people to kill in cold blood for you every day of your life, cops and military specifically. If you didn't, there would be no peace or security to conduct your life. You're simply picking and choosing which cold blood you want to be spilled and how, right? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
...You ask people to kill in cold blood for you every day of your life, cops and military specifically. ...
That is not killing "in cold blood", and neither is executing under terms and conditions set by law. It is an attempt to win an argument by using a term in an inappropriate way. Quite unfair, actually.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
Still haven't read the whole thread, or the other one, have you?
I have read the whole of this thread. I have not read the other thread because I am participating in this particular discussion only.
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
I see two purposes for capital punishment - punishment (this should be obvious) and protection of society (which is why I know you haven't read the thread).
I hadn't picked the deterrence issue up from your posts in this thread, I'm sorry if I missed that - I don't think you have responded to the issue of lowered conviction rates where capital punishment is used for offences other than murder.
quote:
Originally posted by Sharkshooter:
Either you achieve the goal(s) or you don't. There is not, in my mind, a "more fully" issue here.
I disagree. You could punish someone by dropping a hammer on their foot, in the case of a murderer this would not appear to meet your goal of punishment fully enough for you to be satisfied with that. (Mine either, in the case of that example.)
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
There are some crimes where I believe execution is the proper punishment - it stands to reason, therefore, that, in my mind, life imprisonment is inadequate.
And the question I was asking was why you believe that life imprisonment is inadequate. For example, do you want equivalence - you killed 1 person, so we kill you.
If so do you think we should have additional corporal punishment for those who torture their victims to death ?
Do you think that that capital punishment is subjectively more unpleasant than life imprisonment ? (In which case I am not sure you are right.) And therefore should be available for the most serious crimes.
If you believe in the afterlife and God's judgement, is it that you want to get them there - to their eternal experience - more quickly ?
Or something else ?
[ 18. November 2005, 18:28: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
... I have not read the other thread because I am participating in this particular discussion only.
...
Fine. I will not waste any more time then going over old territory.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
Does it really matter if someone is insane/psychotic? I never understood that distinction. If you are a massive threat to society, you're a massive threat to society, off with you. [/QB]
Psychosis is usually the product of a mental illness, the point being that someone did not chose to have a mental illness. If they were insane / acutely psychotic at the time of a killing they may have been unaware of what they were doing. Can you meaningfully say that someone is responsible for an act they are not fully aware of initiating - or that they perceive in a way that would be legal if their perceptions were correct ?
If you are prepared to kill people who may put the lives of others at risk unintentionally, it is difficult to see why you would not also want to kill people with fatal communicable diseases in case they pass them on. Or the CEO's of tobacco companies. Basically, once you stop caring what people were intending to do, you open up a whole new can of worms.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
...You ask people to kill in cold blood for you every day of your life, cops and military specifically. ...
That is not killing "in cold blood", and neither is executing under terms and conditions set by law. It is an attempt to win an argument by using a term in an inappropriate way. Quite unfair, actually.
Exactly, I was attempting to demonstrate that (admitedly possibly a little obtusely) by my comment on it. "Cold blood" is in the eye of the beholder and is rather artificial in any case. People have to be killed sometimes, welcome to humanity.
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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
... I have not read the other thread because I am participating in this particular discussion only.
...
Fine. I will not waste any more time then going over old territory.
If there are to be entrance requirements for a thread perhaps they should be put in the OP ? Or are we all allowed to specify what prior reading we feel a shipmate is required to have undertaken in order for them to be worthy of a response.
If so, I suggest everyone go away and read 'Why Punish' by Nigel Walker, and post their technical definitions of the terms 'punishment', 'deterence' and 'justice' before we go any further.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
Does it really matter if someone is insane/psychotic? I never understood that distinction. If you are a massive threat to society, you're a massive threat to society, off with you.
Psychosis is usually the product of a mental illness, the point being that someone did not chose to have a mental illness. If they were insane / acutely psychotic at the time of a killing they may have been unaware of what they were doing. Can you meaningfully say that someone is responsible for an act they are not fully aware of initiating - or that they perceive in a way that would be legal if their perceptions were correct ?
If you are prepared to kill people who may put the lives of others at risk unintentionally, it is difficult to see why you would not also want to kill people with fatal communicable diseases in case they pass them on. Or the CEO's of tobacco companies. Basically, once you stop caring what people were intending to do, you open up a whole new can of worms. [/QB]
I question whether we can accurately determine "intention" good or bad, at all. That's my point. I (or a jury of 12) can only determine that one person killed one (or more) people. To give them an out like "the temporary voices in my head made me do it" seems to me rather absurd. If the voices in your head make you dangerous to society, than you may need to be permanently removed from that society. Emphasis on permanent, and emphasis on removed.
IMO, this really isn't about punishment or retribution or vigilatism. It's not about what caused you to kill five people in a slashing fit of rage or the voices in your head and lust telling you to kidnap, rape and kill a child.
It's about cause and effect. If you are such a serious threat to society that your very existence in any part of the world is a threat to society, than you need to be gone, the more permanent the better. Erased.
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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
If you are prepared to kill people who may put the lives of others at risk unintentionally, it is difficult to see why you would not also want to kill people with fatal communicable diseases in case they pass them on. Or the CEO's of tobacco companies. Basically, once you stop caring what people were intending to do, you open up a whole new can of worms.
For Mad Geo, it seems that either a moral argument or a utilitarian argument will do just fine, so long as it's an argument for execution.
[ 18. November 2005, 18:55: Message edited by: Alogon ]
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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riverfalls
Shipmate
# 9168
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Posted
The debate on capital punishment has been going on for centuries. We can say hang them cut off the head, boil them in oil. For whatever reason we have. However, if the same person has repented of the sin. Being judge clean by Almighty God how can then we kill an innocent Christian, doesn't he then become a martyr
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http://www.ourcatholicfaith.org/readings-listen.html
Posts: 1611 | From: Stoke On Trent | Registered: Mar 2005
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
I (or a jury of 12) can only determine that one person killed one (or more) people. To give them an out like "the temporary voices in my head made me do it" seems to me rather absurd. If the voices in your head make you dangerous to society, than you may need to be permanently removed from that society. Emphasis on permanent, and emphasis on removed.
I have a cousin who is seriously mentally ill. Although she has never harmed anyone, she has had terrifying delusions and hallucinations. It is quite possible that, in such a state, she could harm someone, thinking that she was protecting herself.
I can't imagine that anyone would consider that taking her life would be an appropriate response, if that were to happen. She needs medical care and supervision (which she receives in a sheltered group home). As long as she receives that, the only one who suffers from her illness is her (and of course those who love her). If those responsible for her safety and well-being were to fail in that duty, it would be a travesty of justice to hold her accountable for that.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Or, for example, you could determine that comitting such an act removed your right to choose not to accept medical treatment and make an order that the individual concerned should be compelled to detention to attend a psychiatric hospital every X weeks to recieve a depot anti-psychotic injection - arrest them and detain them in a psychiatric facility permenantly if they are more than a day late. (Meds take longer than a day to wear off.)
Of course these case arise very rarely in comparison to the amount of people killed and injured by people with no demonstrable mental dysfunction. Such people are far more likely to be a risk to themselves than anybody else.
I am still interested to know if you extend the principle you are expounding to the examples I gave in my original reply to your post ? How bigger a risk do you have to be to others before you'd execute - and how involved do you have to be with the death - and why ?
[ 18. November 2005, 19:02: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by josephine:
If those responsible for her safety and well-being were to fail in that duty, it would be a travesty of justice to hold her accountable for that.
I strongly agree.
[N.B. Post above was a crossposting - intended to be a response to Mad Geo]
[ 18. November 2005, 19:05: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
In response to Mad Geo and others pro-CP, why not send the convicts to Abu Graid or a CIA prison for life? Save us the money and stop playing God!
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
OK, in deference to sharkshooter's assumption of the gatekeeper role I have now ploughed through the whole of the limbo thread.
It does not answer the questions I was asking of you sharkshooter.
(I realise I said that I hadn't picked up on your deterence argument - in an earlier post - when I meant to type that I hadn't picked up on your protection argument.)
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
Does it really matter if someone is insane/psychotic? I never understood that distinction. If you are a massive threat to society, you're a massive threat to society, off with you.
So you'd kill the mentally ill, then? This is what you seem to be proposing.
T.
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by josephine:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
I (or a jury of 12) can only determine that one person killed one (or more) people. To give them an out like "the temporary voices in my head made me do it" seems to me rather absurd. If the voices in your head make you dangerous to society, than you may need to be permanently removed from that society. Emphasis on permanent, and emphasis on removed.
I have a cousin who is seriously mentally ill. Although she has never harmed anyone, she has had terrifying delusions and hallucinations. It is quite possible that, in such a state, she could harm someone, thinking that she was protecting herself.
I can't imagine that anyone would consider that taking her life would be an appropriate response, if that were to happen. She needs medical care and supervision (which she receives in a sheltered group home). As long as she receives that, the only one who suffers from her illness is her (and of course those who love her). If those responsible for her safety and well-being were to fail in that duty, it would be a travesty of justice to hold her accountable for that.
If she is a genuine threat to society (which in your example does not sound like is actually the real case) than she should be in a place where the chance of a caregiver to "fail in their duty" is minimized. I would think that if they knew she was an actual risk to others and that she could die for it, than they would be accountable for their actions (or lack thereof).
At some point society has to make a choice to protect the innocent, or to protect the rights of homocidal maniacs. I draw that line for protecting the innocent. That is my "moral" argument, Alogon. The higher value is to protect future victims, not the aggressor, no matter what the cause, or worse, excuse. The life of the victim is of higher purpose and value than the life of the murdering aggressor. Again, sometimes societies should make these distinctions no matter how distateful. It's why cops and soldiers have to kill sometimes, to defend the innocent.
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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
At some point society has to make a choice to protect the innocent, or to protect the rights of homocidal maniacs. I draw that line for protecting the innocent.
In most jurisdictions, murder (or the sort for which one could receive the death penalty or life in prison) requires intent. Someone who is, by reason of age or insanity or any other condition, unable to form the legally defined intent is, by definition, innocent of murder, even if they should kill someone.
I would hope you can understand why.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
What is wrong with life at hard labour at a military prison? I'd think with all of the innocent soldiers and Marines getting themselves killed in Iraq there'd be surplus capacity in military prisons here stateside!
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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