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Originally posted by Mudfrog:
And according to the witness of Jesus himself, the Acts of the Apostles, the Pauline and pastoral epistles and the book of revelation, none of these is actually true.

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Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
evo0 to evo1 (I'm evonull too, if any one declares themselves to be evo0), when is, was or shall be the 'final reckoning' for the Sodomians?

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What I meant by that was before the end of their (earthly) lives (unless specifically provided for by the Lord - that's upto him, I'm sure he knows what he's doing )

Love,

Evo1

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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus

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Originally posted by Evo1:
I wouldn't dare speculate who would or would not accept Jesus in the final reckoning.

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let's think of the time Jesus called out to Lazarus. How disabled was he? He was dead! But when Jesus called, Lazarus came.

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Originally posted by Superslug:
How do we know he doesnt call all of us. The Lazarus quote implies it is possible to hear his call even after death.

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Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Roger evo1, evo0 here: And he OBVIOUSLY means something beyond your YOUR final reckoning.

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Oh yes, obviously, I meant to say that I was using this phrase outside of it's normally accepted connotations.

And to PK, as I said, all of these things are to be taken up with him rather than me.

I think Peter mentions something about Jesus preaching to the dead - this could be the Sodomians (is that the same as Sodomites?), who knows.

Why doesn't God call all of us, that's his business too isn't it. I prefer Paul's answer to this type of question, "One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?"

Our earthy logic cannot comprehend God's wisdom. Soon we will know.

Love,

Evo1

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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus

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Originally posted by Superslug:
How do we know he doesnt call all of us. The Lazarus quote implies it is possible to hear his call even after death.

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That's one of the reasons I added, "unless specifically provided for by the Lord - that's upto him, I'm sure he knows what he's doing " But why shouldn't this happen for everyone and other issues of fairness - reference Romans 9 above.

Though given Lazarus already had a personal relationship with Jesus, I think it's probable he had already responded to the call.

Love,

Evo1

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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus

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Originally posted by Superslug:
It is more likely, I would suggest, for us to respond with ' I never knew you' than it would be for God. (given that he knew us at the beginning of time, we are told)

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Allow me for once to play the liberal

Where are we told this?

Love,

Evo1

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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus

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Originally posted by Superslug:
Oh Evo1 (I forgot to ask) How soon will we know?, have you been on the direct line again.


If so, please share!

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Look Super, as soon as I know, you'll know. I can't say fairer than that can I?



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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus

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Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Too late, SS, too late. Dives' parabolic if not fabled call was not to salvation. The characters aren't real and the symbolism Jesus uses conform to the expectations of his audience whatever truths are there. I read from it that there is a point of reprobation which may well be exceeded in this life for some, that reprobate character, like Satan's, can be formed in us.

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Salvation isn't a catechism exam.

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:
But if you and the religion you follow actively rejects the doctrine that Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, what then?

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Originally posted by Demas:

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:
But if you and the religion you follow actively rejects the doctrine that Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, what then?

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Love is patient, love is kind. Love always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails and God is love.

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:

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Originally posted by Demas:
Love is patient, love is kind. Love always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails and God is love.

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How does that translate into saving everyone?

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Originally posted by professorkirke:

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Originally posted by m.t_tomb:
So yes, in some respects the paths do all lead up the mountain. But it's Jesus who'll be waiting for everyone at the top. I'm sorry, but IMO, you simply can't change that fact. You simply can't meet God without meeting Jesus, because that is who God is.

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So anyone who subscribes to a belief in "god" would then, by this definition, already believe in Jesus whether they say so or not?

Interesting twist, perhaps?

-Digory

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Is this also what the parable of the wedding feast - the odd bit at the end - is about? People think they can sneak in by professing Christianity, but not being clothed in the right clothing - not having the right attitude to the Light - they find they have no place.

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:
How does that translate into saving everyone? Simply that God will smile, say "I love you, welcome to heaven"?

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But if you and the religion you follow actively rejects the doctrine that Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, what then?

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Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:

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But if you and the religion you follow actively rejects the doctrine that Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, what then?

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Neither my religion nor I activeley reject this. But I still agree with LutheranChick: we aren't doing a catechism for eternal life, we're in a living relationship with our Creator. I totally reject any form of salvation by creed.

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Originally posted by Evo1:
Your religion may just be something you picked out of a lucky bag but if that was all there was to it, I'd still be an atheist (glad I'm not).

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Originally posted by Teufelchen:
*small cheering noise for Karl*

You spoke my mind, Karl. Well, I wouldn't call religion a total lottery. I'd like to think I'm a Christian and not a Scientologist because I used my brain. But there's a strong element of the postcode lottery about it, yes.

Mudfrog: If Christianity claims John the Baptist as the last prophet; or if it abandons the Law of Moses; or if it insists on the Trinity of God (denied by Islam and Judaism) - what excuse is there for us, before the God of Abraham?

T.

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Have you ever spoken to a Muslim and had their vehement opinion shouted in your face as they verbally and passionately reject the Lord Jesus Christ, his person, his nature, his work on the cross?

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Originally posted by Teufelchen:
Whereas if I thought that God would condemn someone who acted well towards others, but sincerely believed a false proposition about God, to eternal damnation, I wouldn't be who I am, and I wouldn't be here having this discussion with you.

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Originally posted by Evo1:
I find myself agreeing with you T with one problem, I don't know anyone who consistently and continuously and for their entire life has acted well towards others (save one of course). If these mythical characters actually existed, they would have no need of Jesus - in this we are agreed.

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Originally posted by Teufelchen:

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Have you ever spoken to a Muslim and had their vehement opinion shouted in your face as they verbally and passionately reject the Lord Jesus Christ, his person, his nature, his work on the cross?

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No. The only religious people who've been that rude to me are Christians and atheists. I've spoken to many Muslims about faith, including some who would most definitely be classed as fundamentalists, and they have always been civil to me. So take your nasty caricatures elsewhere.

T.

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Originally posted by Teufelchen:
Definitely! I'm not proposing a solely works-based system. Are you suggesting, though, that of two people who do as much good and harm as one another by intent, only the Christian would be saved? No matter how much opportunity to understand the faith correctly each of them had?

T.

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I cannot imagine any group of 3 white Christian men deliberately singling out a Muslim in order to yell at him, whilst pointing to copies of the Qu'ran, that he was the AntiChrist.

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Originally posted by Teufelchen:

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I cannot imagine any group of 3 white Christian men deliberately singling out a Muslim in order to yell at him, whilst pointing to copies of the Qu'ran, that he was the AntiChrist.

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The Christians are too busy doing this to each other. Check out the 'Why do Catholics get the bigotry' thread if you don't believe me. I've been told I was in league with the AntiChrist by Wee Frees because I attended an ecumenical pilgrimage.

T.

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Originally posted by Evo1:
I would find it helpful if the universalists would give verses which suggest the opposite of this rather than taking us on mystery tours around the possible alternative meanings of seemingly obvious scripts.

Love,

Evo1

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then their adherents, in following those teachings, are rejecting Jesus and his atonement through the cross and resurrection.

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
The question of people who've deliberately and consciously rejected Jesus is actually fairly academic, since I don't know of anyone in that category. I dare say it happens.

What happens far more is that people are shown goodness, love and forgiveness and prefer to carry on in evil, hatred and petty feuding. Perhaps that's actually the more important issue. Doesn't John's Gospel say that the Light illuminates every person, not just those who've heard of Jesus of Nazareth, but people often prefer to reject the light, because they don't like what it says about where they are at the time?

The parable of the two sons makes me think of on the one hand those who do not profess Christianity, but act in accordance with Jesus' teachings, compared with those who do profess Christianity, but are unwilling to have some core darkness changed - insisting on maintaing perhaps petty hatreds, refusing to countenance forgiveness, hoarding their wealth, or whatever?

I know who my money is on seeing in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Is this also what the parable of the wedding feast - the odd bit at the end - is about? People think they can sneak in by professing Christianity, but not being clothed in the right clothing - not having the right attitude to the Light - they find they have no place.

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Excellent post, Karl

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[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Scripture is clear...

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This is not a case of, we never had the full details, this is a case of we violently disagree with what yoyu say

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Allah is god and Jesus (PBOH) is ONLY a prophet, not the Son of God.

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:
This is not a case of, we never had the full details, this is a case of we violently disagree with what yoyu say

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