|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Purgatory: Is Jesus Christ the Only Way of Salvation?
|
Evo1
Shipmate
# 10249
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
We don't deal in proof-texting verses because we don't use the Bible like that.
Hm, that's convenient.
--------------------
Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus
Posts: 1058 | From: Hull, England | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Laura
General nuisance
# 10
|
Posted
Why do we assume that one's acceptance of Jesus must be in some form approved by a modern Church? If you assume that there are all sorts of ways of "meeting and following Jesus" -- for example, feeding the hungry, or doing good to the extent of one's capacity (in the case of those who are limited by age, capacity, exposure and experience), then you don't have to get into the "what about the retarded Jewish baby?" question.
If Jesus is the Way, then I suspect many of all sorts will at the last hour face Him and be recognized as His own. I suspect there are many "Christians" who will find themselves not recognized. Again, I see no reason to assume that the scripture is saying that only professing Christians will go to the Father.
--------------------
Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
If Jesus is the Way, then I suspect many of all sorts will at the last hour face Him and be recognized as His own. I suspect there are many "Christians" who will find themselves not recognized. Again, I see no reason to assume that the scripture is saying that only professing Christians will go to the Father.
EXACTLY.
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evo1:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
We don't deal in proof-texting verses because we don't use the Bible like that.
Hm, that's convenient.
Once again you demonstrate your lack of respect for other people's systems of belief/methods of defending those beliefs.
I hope it's not out of line in Purgatory to gently request that you tone it down a little bit.
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
If Jesus is the Way, then I suspect many of all sorts will at the last hour face Him and be recognized as His own. I suspect there are many "Christians" who will find themselves not recognized. Again, I see no reason to assume that the scripture is saying that only professing Christians will go to the Father.
The only possible way this could be seen to be Good News is if the penalty for not being recognised by Jesus is other than eternal torture or separation from God.
Otherwise, you're just making the lottery worse; because you don't know how to avoid hell. Faith? Good works? How many good works? Even if I do have faith and good works, aren't I possibly going to be suprised?
Hear the Good News, brothers! You may or may not be going to hell, we don't know! God knows, but since he's the sort of God who condemns people to hell I suggest you should be very worried!
Praise Be to his Holy Name!
--------------------
They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Is there any excuse, Mudfrog, for your biblically illiterate, ignorant (and not just to me), fearful, small minded, mean spirited, racist, sexist, homophobic, classist gracelessness?
Mate?
For your oxymoronic gospel?
Am I the ONLY conservative, fundy, fascist, FUNdaMENTal Christian (who therefore assents to the OP absolutely) here - evo1? - who does not regard mere Christians - the luckiest and most responsible people on earth - as saved in this the only day of salvation?
If evo, fundy, biblically conservative Christianity has to have any external credibility whatsoever beyond its external constituency it must be FULLY biblically honest and not selective, blind, naked and ignorant and JOYLESS, in denial out of what perverse fear I cannot imagine.
Of the better resurrection experience of the inhabitants of Sodom compared to the inhabitants of Bethsaida and Chorazin as proclaimed by JESUS.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Is there any excuse, Mudfrog, for your biblically illiterate, ignorant (and not just to me), fearful, small minded, mean spirited, racist, sexist, homophobic, classist gracelessness?
Mate?
For your oxymoronic gospel?
Am I the ONLY conservative, fundy, fascist, FUNdaMENTal Christian (who therefore assents to the OP absolutely) here - evo1? - who does not regard mere Christians - the luckiest and most responsible people on earth - as saved in this the only day of salvation?
If evo, fundy, biblically conservative Christianity has to have any external credibility whatsoever beyond its external constituency it must be FULLY biblically honest and not selective, blind, naked and ignorant and JOYLESS, in denial out of what perverse fear I cannot imagine.
Of the better resurrection experience of the inhabitants of Sodom compared to the inhabitants of Bethsaida and Chorazin as proclaimed by JESUS.
Where does all that come from??
Where have I suggested I am racist, homophoboic and sexist? Do you know me? Have you had a conversation with me? Have you ever asked me about my opinions on various issues? Do you know my personality and my nature? Do you know my history and my life-story? Do you know what experiences I myself have lived through and dealt with?
Do you hell. So what gives you the right to make these accusations?
Why am I responding to your hatefilled little message?
[ 17. November 2005, 09:10: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
|
Posted
Gentlemen I'm sure a host will be along shortly to invite you to take your burgeoning little fight to Hell...
--------------------
"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Ah, a response MF, thank you. I provoke you to good works at last. Your theology is by definition all of those things. Why are you personalizing this? I ask guilefully? What has YOUR theology got to do with you? A psychological question I'm not asking. Much ... Well secondarily to challenging YOUR theology which is NOT complete by a LONG way.
Why won't you respond to Jesus' own statement about the easier resurrection for the inhabitants of Sodom compared with those of Bethsaida and Chorazin?
Why won't you be intellectually honest?
Why CAN'T you be?
Here or hell, it's all the same to me.
What will you do in the resurrection when Jesus puts his arm round the Jews and Moslems and Neanderthals? Pant in expectation of Him hurling them in to the lake of fire? Or throw yourself in when He insists you graciously share eternity with them?
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
|
Posted
Matthew 11 v 20 - 24
Ah yes, the sin of rejecting Christ when they had ample opportunity to believe. Unlike, of course, the other cities destroyed because of their gross immorality.
--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Is that it?
So gross immorality up to the point of being nuked means you're better off in the resurrection, what in a better class of Mot'ell, than the Jews? Does that include the Jews who've already been up the chimney once?
[ 17. November 2005, 10:28: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
|
Posted
And does that not give us a reason for not preaching the Gospel: that everyone's OK until they've heard the Good News, but if they hear and then cock up their response to it, they're damned...which sounds more like Bad News to me?
[Etided fro splening]
[ 17. November 2005, 10:31: Message edited by: Matt Black ]
--------------------
"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Matthew 11 v 20 - 24
Ah yes, the sin of rejecting Christ when they had ample opportunity to believe. Unlike, of course, the other cities destroyed because of their gross immorality.
I think if you look in v.21 you will find that Korazin and Bethsaida committed the sin of not repenting.
Which is, indeed, the same as rejecting Christ, but not the same as rejecting Christianity. One can repent and still not believe that Jesus of Nazareth was God.
--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Matthew 11 v 20 - 24
Ah yes, the sin of rejecting Christ when they had ample opportunity to believe. Unlike, of course, the other cities destroyed because of their gross immorality.
I think if you look in v.21 you will find that Korazin and Bethsaida committed the sin of not repenting.
Which is, indeed, the same as rejecting Christ, but not the same as rejecting Christianity. One can repent and still not believe that Jesus of Nazareth was God.
Your logic escapes me.
How can you accept Jesus as Christ but not believe he is God?
[ 17. November 2005, 11:15: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evo1:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
We don't deal in proof-texting verses because we don't use the Bible like that.
Hm, that's convenient.
I don't mind playing, although I'm only a hopeful universalist rather than a fully committed one.
1 Tim 2:4 for openers.
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
How can you accept Jesus as Christ but not believe he is God?
Because there is a difference between accepting or rejecting a person, and accepting or rejecting statements about that person.
--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Your logic escapes me.
How can you accept Jesus as Christ but not believe he is God?
Well, one way would be to be a Muslim. The Qu'ran states, with clarity which would make Biblical Trinitarians envious, that Jesus was the Messiah, but was a prophet and not divine.
T.
[ETA: Better phrasing]
[ 17. November 2005, 11:37: Message edited by: Teufelchen ]
--------------------
Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
|
Posted
[Cross-post: to Mudfrog]
Hang on - I see your confusion. By "accepting Christ" I didn't mean "accepting Jesus as Christ" (which is an intellectual acceptance). I meant accepting the second Person of the Godhead, whatever that might mean.
S. Paul in Romans seems quite clear that everyone has the opportunity to accept Him, as you yourself have cited him. Since Christianity has historically only been proclaimed to a minority of the world's population, for S. Paul not to be talking nonsense it must be possible to accept Christ outside Christianity.
[ 17. November 2005, 11:40: Message edited by: Ricardus ]
--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
1 Tim 2:4 for openers.
... states only that God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (RSV). Thus we can conclude from scripture that God offers sufficient salvific grace to all humans. Whether everybody takes up God's offer is a different question altogether.
Actually, upon careful consideration 1 Tim 2:4 is a denial of universalism. Obviously an omnipotent God could without fail send everybody straight to heaven if He so willed. But a desire cannot exist if there's not possibility of failure. I cannot desire to have spatial extent or mass, since there's no possibility that I could not have these. The fact that God merely desires all men to be saved implies that they may not all be saved, hence He has not decreed that they will all be saved without fail.
Or in a nutshell: 1 Tim 2:4 does not say God "arranges that all men are saved and come to the knowledge of the truth", as it should if universalism was true.
--------------------
They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Callan
Shipmate
# 525
|
Posted
None of which is incompatible with a hopeful universalism, although you are correct that it is incompatible with a dogmatic universalism. If God desires something, I imagine that it is within the range of possibility.
--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
|
Posted
Although I agree with your answer, IngoB, you've given it away too soon and thus totally spoiled the fun I was going to have ripping a tulip into small pieces.
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
|
Posted
<Innocent expression>
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
1 Tim 2:4 for openers.
... states only that God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (RSV). Thus we can conclude from scripture that God offers sufficient salvific grace to all humans. Whether everybody takes up God's offer is a different question altogether.
Actually, upon careful consideration 1 Tim 2:4 is a denial of universalism. Obviously an omnipotent God could without fail send everybody straight to heaven if He so willed. But a desire cannot exist if there's not possibility of failure. I cannot desire to have spatial extent or mass, since there's no possibility that I could not have these. The fact that God merely desires all men to be saved implies that they may not all be saved, hence He has not decreed that they will all be saved without fail.
Or in a nutshell: 1 Tim 2:4 does not say God "arranges that all men are saved and come to the knowledge of the truth", as it should if universalism was true.
Hold on. Right now I sit on my living room floor (procrastinating readiness for work) in front of a coffee table on which three glasses are sitting. Does anyone doubt that I have the power with which to pick up all three glasses and take them into the kitchen? If I say that I desire to do so, does that necessarily preclude my ability to do so? You could say that there is a chance that I won't or can't, but honestly we know that I can.
God has the power to save us all, and we now know he desires to save us all. Those are good indications that he will--his desire simply comes from the fact that he has the option to not.
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
What if you drop one of the glasses?
Or it self-destructs?
Or defies you?
Or is superglued to the table?
Or it evaporates?
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
|
Posted
What if one of the glasses doesn't want to go to the kitchen?
--------------------
"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
It shall be put in the oven forever and ever and scream in conscious burning torment forever and ever and ever and that is just and love and good.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Callan
Shipmate
# 525
|
Posted
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
What if one of the glasses doesn't want to go to the kitchen?
Who is the clay to object to the potter? ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
What if you drop one of the glasses?
Or it self-destructs?
Or defies you?
Or is superglued to the table?
Or it evaporates?
All of these options would display my inability to carry them into the kitchen. For me, this is a very real possibility, since I am a considerable "clutz". General belief about the Christian God would suggest this is not a possibility for God. If you believe he definitely CAN, you are only left with the question of "Does he want to?" Even if you say, "Well he wants to, but he doesn't want to impose on our free will," that is equivalent to "He doesn't want to, just for good reason."
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
What if one of the glasses doesn't want to go to the kitchen?
Matt, I will use this excuse the next time my wife asks me why I have not cleaned up after myself. And I will credit (or blame) you for any consequences. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
The chance that a glass will refuse moving to the kitchen is zero%, in this case because a glass has no choice. The chance that a person will reject God (and not a representation of God but the real, true, actual, perfectly displayed, completely understood God) is x%.
I suppose we're discussing the value of x?
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Niënna
Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652
|
Posted
Pardon me from not responding to the current issue of the Glasses of Salvation.
This thread is so intriguing on so many levels. What I think is crucial is coming to some understanding of what exactly is "salvation." Does it just mean saved from burning flames of ever-lasting torment? What does it mean "Jesus Christ is the only way of Salvation"? What are we talking about?
If I could give a stab at this question, my position is that salvation = kingdom of heaven. And Jesus is the one who brings the kingdom of heaven.
For you bible-people here's proof-texts from the gospel of St. Matt:
quote:
From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near." (Matthew 4:17)
quote:
Jesus went through all the towns and villages, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the good news of the kingdom and healing every disease and sickness. (Matthew 9:35)
And little-bit OT-style:
quote:
The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me,
because the LORD has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners,
to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor
and the day of vengeance of our God,
to comfort all who mourn,
and provide for those who grieve in Zion—
to bestow on them a crown of beauty
instead of ashes,
the oil of gladness
instead of mourning,
and a garment of praise
instead of a spirit of despair
(Isaiah 61:1-3)
ISTM, that salvation = redemption = kingdom of God/heaven. That God is in the process of transforming people's spirits. Salvation is not merely being saved from hell. That's way too small. That's not exactly what Jesus preached. It is about meaning, purpose, and (warning: trite cliche) destiny as heirs of God's kingdom. I think Salvation is also about making us bigger people, making us like God instead of just letting us be where we are.
So, your thoughts - what does Salvation mean to you? What do you mean Jesus Christ is the only way of Salvation?
--------------------
[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land
Posts: 2298 | From: Purgatory | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoyfulSoul:
So, your thoughts - what does Salvation mean to you? What do you mean Jesus Christ is the only way of Salvation?
I too will step out of the Glasses of Salvation™ discussion (I know, I know, I started it) to address this nice new redirection which amusingly brings us back to the OP.
I know this may sound crazy, and I don't have any great amazing proof (and I'm quite terrified of those IngoBs and Gordon Chengs who will undoubtedly come by to squash this un-thought-out proposition), but this is an idea that my heart has been tossing around for a year or so now, so I'll throw it out there. Part of me looks at Jesus Christ as a living embodiment of God's decision to show us grace.
Almost as if God listened to his people, the Jews, for hundreds of years as they assured him they'd be able to pull it off themselves, just like we'd all like to. He gave them the Law to explain to them just exactly how they'd have to live to gain salvation and to bring salvation to the rest of the world. Finally, after hundreds of tries, God intervened. "Enough of your tries and attempts, now I will give you Grace." Enter Jesus. He comes to preach and yet to LIVE a new message, a fulfillment of the old way, a completion of the old Law, by showing that God will now not hold our sins against us--though they remain as "sins" (thus the Law is not abolished), they are no longer held against us because God chooses to give us Grace.
So in my opinion, Jesus is the only way of Salvation because Grace is the only way to God. If hundreds of years of example after example are a lesson for us, we can be pretty convinced that we could not live up to the standards ourselves, and thus, we need Grace.
That's a small piece of my view on the matter. I anxiously await your very thoughtful considerations, suggestions, and edits. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
|
Posted
I, too, am terrified of Mudfrog, IngoB and Gordon Cheng because their God is limited in his ability to love and forgive. In fact he's inferior to me, because I love and forgive better than he does.
My God, being omniscient, knows our weaknesses and looks upon them with the exasperation of a loving parent, but with an infinite ability to forgive because to know all is to forgive all. I believe that Christ is the only way to salvation, but I don't believe that knowing it or believing it is the only way. For man it is impossible, but for God all things, even the salvation of Satan and Adolf Hitler, are possible.
--------------------
Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Niënna
Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
I, too, am terrified of Mudfrog, IngoB and Gordon Cheng because their God is limited in his ability to love and forgive. In fact he's inferior to me, because I love and forgive better than he does.
Look, PaulTH* - I don't see Mudfrog's, IngoB's, Gordon Cheng's or any other person's God as a monster because they believe in hell and that people go there.
For crying out loud, my position is that it is because God is a God of Love - and not just any love but True Love is the reason why he gives people a choice to be with Him or not.
I see the God you describe as weird one who not only insists but doesn't even allow anyone to make a choice regarding their own eternal destiny. Your god doesn't allow any choice of the matter which IMO is inconsistent with the world I see today and the lovely Genesis story way back when in the sands of time and story.
I think what I'm writting is probably bordering the Purg line but I'm kind of frustrated with the line you are taking "YOUR GOD is a Monster because he SENDS people to HELL" - which is kind of misrepresenting what I and many others having been trying to say. What do you say?
--------------------
[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land
Posts: 2298 | From: Purgatory | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:
I think what I'm writting is probably bordering the Purg line but I'm kind of frustrated with the line you are taking "YOUR GOD is a Monster because he SENDS people to HELL" - which is kind of misrepresenting what I and many others having been trying to say. What do you say?
Joyfulsoul, what do you believe hell is? I'm guessing you don't believe that it is eternal torment, a burning lake of unbearable pain full of crying and gnashing of teeth?
Is hell painful?
--------------------
They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Niënna
Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652
|
Posted
What's your point, Demas?
--------------------
[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land
Posts: 2298 | From: Purgatory | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
|
Posted
If we're considering the potential monstrosity of God, then we need to know what you think the worst case scenario is.
Is God allowing us free will in order that we may miss out on a few carol singing sessions?
Or is God allowing us free will in order that we may burn in an unquenchable fire for eternity?
--------------------
They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Niënna
Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652
|
Posted
I don't want to derail this thread anymore from the good conversations that were going on regarding Salvation. If you prefer you can open a new thread "Is God a Monster?" or maybe join the other thread about about hell.
--------------------
[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land
Posts: 2298 | From: Purgatory | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
|
Posted
It's a side tangent; I'll drop it.
--------------------
They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
|
Posted
Let me clarify my earlier statement:
I did say that I was terrified of the IngoBs and the Gordon Chengs. However, I wasn't saying that I'm scared of their theologies, or that I have any disrespect for them either. I simply meant that in somewhat sloppily laying out an argument, I was terrified that the smartest of the people who would most likely disagree might intellectually tear me to pieces.
Just so everybody's not confused.
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
I, too, am terrified of Mudfrog, IngoB and Gordon Cheng because their God is limited in his ability to love and forgive. In fact he's inferior to me, because I love and forgive better than he does.
My God, being omniscient, knows our weaknesses and looks upon them with the exasperation of a loving parent, but with an infinite ability to forgive because to know all is to forgive all. I believe that Christ is the only way to salvation, but I don't believe that knowing it or believing it is the only way. For man it is impossible, but for God all things, even the salvation of Satan and Adolf Hitler, are possible.
God is not limited in his ability to love and forgive. *Favourite song alert*
Depth of mercy! Can there be
Mercy still reserved for me?
Can my God His wrath forbear,
Me, the chief of sinners, spare?
I have long withstood His grace,
Long provoked Him to His face,
Would not hearken to His calls,
Grieved Him by a thousand falls.
Whence to me this waste of love?
Ask my Advocate above!
See the cause in Jesus’ face,
Now before the throne of grace.
If I rightly read Thy heart,
If Thou all compassion art,
Bow Thine ear, in mercy bow,
Pardon and accept me now.
There for me the Savior stands,
Shows His wounds and spreads His hands.
God is love! I know, I feel;
Jesus lives and loves me still.
Charles Wesley
The only difference between you and I is that you think that God does not hold people accountable for their sin.
God's holiness pervades everything - his love, his justice, his compassion. It is that holiness that gave rise to the need and the provision of a Saviour.
--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The only difference between you and I is that you think that God does not hold people accountable for their sin.
It is very hard sometimes to move beyond the same assertions; and this really is off-topic.
What we're trying to discuss is whether Jesus is the only way of salvation, and if so, what that means.
Surely you agree that salvation is not merely justification but also sanctification? That we don't 'go to heaven' but also 'become heavenly'?
Now the only way to do that is by becoming more loving, more humble, in fact, more like Jesus.
Think about this - we are saved by becoming more like Jesus. (Don't get sidetracked - I'm not saying this is our doing, I'm not arguing about works v. grace).
Can we become more like Jesus without knowing who Jesus is? Sure, why not. People do it all the time. They listen to the small still voice of God within them.
This may not be the whole story; but isn't it part of it?
--------------------
They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The only difference between you and I is that you think that God does not hold people accountable for their sin.
It is very hard sometimes to move beyond the same assertions; and this really is off-topic.
What we're trying to discuss is whether Jesus is the only way of salvation, and if so, what that means.
Surely you agree that salvation is not merely justification but also sanctification? That we don't 'go to heaven' but also 'become heavenly'?
Now the only way to do that is by becoming more loving, more humble, in fact, more like Jesus.
Think about this - we are saved by becoming more like Jesus. (Don't get sidetracked - I'm not saying this is our doing, I'm not arguing about works v. grace).
Can we become more like Jesus without knowing who Jesus is? Sure, why not. People do it all the time. They listen to the small still voice of God within them.
This may not be the whole story; but isn't it part of it?
Indeed. But 'like Jesus' in what respect?
In his morality?
In his religiosity?
In his Jewishness?
In his relationship to God the Father?
I guess that most of what 'being like Jesus' means actually conforms to Judeao-Christian patterns. Therefore, becoming like Jesus actually means becoming more intently Judeao-Christian.
--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
|
Posted
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
The only difference between you and I is that you think that God does not hold people accountable for their sin.
Actually, I do believe that we are accountable for our sin. I also believe that God is pure love and that love "keeps no record of wrongs" (I Cor 13.5).
--------------------
Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
The only difference between you and I is that you think that God does not hold people accountable for their sin.
Actually, I do believe that we are accountable for our sin. I also believe that God is pure love and that love "keeps no record of wrongs" (I Cor 13.5).
So what's there to forgive?
Or do you assume that god arbitrarily forgives people as soon as they have sinned, and then totally forgets they ever sinned?
Forgiveness without repentance?
--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Laura
General nuisance
# 10
|
Posted
It seems to me that there ought to be in our tradition something that tracks the "righteous gentile" paradigm of the Jews? I have read that one of the reasons conversion to Judaism is discouraged is that once you've converted, it's actually harder to be righteous because you're bound by all the laws. It seems to me that, in the same logical vein, more must be expected of those who have made the conscious choice to be Christian than of those who are operating outside that sphere but know Christ in another way that doesn't involve being a professing Christian. It's not that you'd be less likely to be saved (whatever that represents) but that you don't by simple virtue of being a churchgoing Christian have a better chance than a righteous non-Christian.
What's God's motivation here? What does God want us to be? Many scholars have posited that God wants us to be like Him, to be drawn to Him, to develop into the people God means us to be -- the Orthodox call it theosis. Why would that necessarily require accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior? (gack!) Why couldn't walking in God's way and doing God's will and achieving theosis this way please God as much?
--------------------
Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
