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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Why Aren't You A Muslim?
molopata

The Ship's jack
# 9933

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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by Molopata The Rebel:
Jesus proclaimed the proximity of Kingdom of God and salvation, which would be the ultimate message from a Christian point of view. The difference is that He died for that message, whereas Mohammed didn't. I think the moral authority is therefore on the side of Jesus...

Th idea that dying for something lends moral authority to it is often asserted by Christians (or by people trying to lend moral authority to an immoral war, or by...). Am I the only one who finds this notion absurd? When we consider all the thngs that people have died for -- including things that people died en mass for, most of these things are morally repugnant. Do we embrace the moral virtue of Naziism or Communism because so many people were willing to die for them? Do we embrace the Mongol hordes?

Folks have been dying for stupid things for as long as there have been folks. If you say, "but this person was God," you hardly add to the virtue of His position by saying that He died for His beliefs. Once you acknowledge the divinity of Christ, the game os over. Without acknowledging that divinity, the death is just a routine event.

--Tom Clune

Well that might be absurd. Remember, the original statement was both contextual and comparative, and not general. We are looking only at Jesus and Mohammed.
But to look at it in more general terms, I think the circumstances of HOW somebody dies matters. Normally, martyrs relinquish any universal claim to moral authority if they die in the act of committing a violent act or promoting a coercive cause, at least by today's Western standards (okay, that could trigger a debate worth a thread of its own). I would claim that Jesus commands moral authority, or at least some degree of recognition, because the records suggest that He was ready to purposely die for His message while renouncing violence. Had Mohammed died for his cause, it would have been with the sword in his hand. Remember that communists who did died peacefully for their ideals made a deep impression on many on the same grounds. As for the reference to Mongol hords, it is not clear what they stood for, but they certainly were not know as a pacifist movement.

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... The Respectable

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molopata

The Ship's jack
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quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
quote:
Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
If you were a Muslim, you would instead believe that the Qu'ran was given to enlighten mankind and djinn about the mercy and judgement of God. You would believe in the hope of salvation as God will be more merciful and yet more just than we can know, rather than through atoning sacrifice.

T.

Or maybe not. Otherwise there would be no converts from Islam to Christianity. Ever read, "I dared to call him, Father" by Bilquis Sheikh?
I haven't read that book, no.

Obviously people's beliefs and opinions can change. What I'm trying to say is that I find it very unsatisfying to read so many responses here which essentially say:

'I'm a Christian because I believe in Christ.'

I think the OP was seeking explanations, not tautologies. My point is that someone who believes the tenets of Islam would not agree with the positions our fellow-posters find so self-evident. I want to understand how people came to believe Christianity's set of beliefs rather than Islam's.

T.

I think that should read "I'm not a Muslim because I believe in Christ." And that is a perfectly logical and valid position.
It also answers the question.
"Why are you a Christian and not a Muslim?" would narrow the field down a bit and allow us to go further. But that isn't necessarily the question.

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... The Respectable

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Teufelchen
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quote:
Originally posted by whitelaughter:
Finally, there are some 50 odd Islamic nations on the planet - if there is no difference between the believers of different faiths, why are their nations all so horrible?

Horrible by what standards exactly? This strikes me as a sweeping generalisation, and a gross piece of racism. You were also the person who said that a country full of Muslims would be hellish. Perhaps your answer to the question in the OP would be:

"I'm not a Muslim because I dogmatically beleive they're all devils."

State religions are a bad idea. Or have you forgotten what Christian theocracies have achieved in France, Spain, Massachusetts, England, or during the Crusades? (If 'the Crusades' is too general for you, try the sack of Jerusalem in 1099, and of Constantinople in 1204.) A country which is Islamic by definition, rather than by default, has against it not Islam, but state religion.

T.

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Little devil

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molopata

The Ship's jack
# 9933

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quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
quote:
Originally posted by whitelaughter:
Finally, there are some 50 odd Islamic nations on the planet - if there is no difference between the believers of different faiths, why are their nations all so horrible?

Horrible by what standards exactly? This strikes me as a sweeping generalisation, and a gross piece of racism. You were also the person who said that a country full of Muslims would be hellish. Perhaps your answer to the question in the OP would be:

"I'm not a Muslim because I dogmatically beleive they're all devils."

State religions are a bad idea. Or have you forgotten what Christian theocracies have achieved in France, Spain, Massachusetts, England, or during the Crusades? (If 'the Crusades' is too general for you, try the sack of Jerusalem in 1099, and of Constantinople in 1204.) A country which is Islamic by definition, rather than by default, has against it not Islam, but state religion.

T.

A historical footnote. I would maintain that the Crusades, as horrible as they were, were in fact an answer to the Islamic Jihad which swept Northern Africa and Iberia. That does not let Christian Europe off the hook in anyway (at least no in context of their own religion), but in this context B is mentioned too often without A.

As for the theocracy issue, one can observe that although short of being run by mullahs, many Islam dominated states have strong laws protecting Islam and outlawing proselytism - and in that are more coercive than say Britain's protection of the Church of England or Europe's state-churches, certainly crossing the borderline from religious freedom. Do such laws constitute theocracies by shades or not? (I'll stop here, because I'm going a bit off-topic).

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... The Respectable

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Teufelchen
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quote:
Originally posted by Molopata The Rebel:
A historical footnote. I would maintain that the Crusades, as horrible as they were, were in fact an answer to the Islamic Jihad which swept Northern Africa and Iberia. That does not let Christian Europe off the hook in anyway (at least no in context of their own religion), but in this context B is mentioned too often without A.

Gladly conceded. I mentioned the two atrocities in Constantinople and Jerusalem because many of the victims were Christians and Jews in each case respectively. That terrible things have been done in the name of Islam is not in dispute; I was emphasising that examining the political conduct of nations espousing a religon is not a good yardstick as to that religion's character.

quote:
As for the theocracy issue, one can observe that although short of being run by mullahs, many Islam dominated states have strong laws protecting Islam and outlawing proselytism - and in that are more coercive than say Britain's protection of the Church of England or Europe's state-churches, certainly crossing the borderline from religious freedom. Do such laws constitute theocracies by shades or not? (I'll stop here, because I'm going a bit off-topic).
I think they probably do constitute theocracies, more or less. When I referred to theocracy in England, I was thinking of (for example) Mary Tudor's efforts, rather than the present mess.

That said, I still think whitelaughter's remarks about Islamic nations are way over the line.

T.

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Little devil

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Ilkku
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I'm not good enough to be a good Muslim. I'll never achieve salvation through my own efforts however I strive.

I'll leave the really difficult bit to Jesus thanks.

this is my view too [Smile]

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Oh, and PS: It shouldn't be hard to spell my name right. It's on everything I post. (Mousethief)

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whitelaughter
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quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
quote:
Originally posted by whitelaughter:
Finally, there are some 50 odd Islamic nations on the planet - if there is no difference between the believers of different faiths, why are their nations all so horrible?

Horrible by what standards exactly? This strikes me as a sweeping generalisation, and a gross piece of racism. You were also the person who said that a country full of Muslims would be hellish. Perhaps your answer to the question in the OP would be:

"I'm not a Muslim because I dogmatically beleive they're all devils."

State religions are a bad idea. Or have you forgotten what Christian theocracies have achieved in France, Spain, Massachusetts, England, or during the Crusades? (If 'the Crusades' is too general for you, try the sack of Jerusalem in 1099, and of Constantinople in 1204.) A country which is Islamic by definition, rather than by default, has against it not Islam, but state religion.

T.

Okay running through that point by point:
1. Expecting to win an argument by calling me 'racist' really doesn't reflect well on you. (Especially as Muslim aren't a race). Racism is the belief that people of another 'race' (stupid term, for it to be biologically accurate would require humans be incapable of breeding with humans whose colour was different) are inferior and should be discriminated against because of this. If my belief, that the Muslim nations are horrible because of the beliefs espoused there, is 'racist', then anyone with any political views is 'racist' - rendering the term irrelevant.

2. As a 'gross generalisation' - would you care to point to an exception? Can you think of an Islamic nation which bucks the trend?

3.By what standards? This is your best point, I should give the standards I'm measuring by: the most important is life expectancy. Hmm, the UN has a lot of stuff on line - I'm happy to make an exception for any nation which the UN says has rights and standards of living roughly equivalent to a Western nation.

4. I do not believe that Muslims are devils, have never said that, and fail to see what I have said that you could reasonably have misinterpreted in that fashion. They have created a number of Hells for themselves, yes. Large numbers of them realise this - the millions of refugees hammering on our doorsteps are proof of this. Without Jesus, we would have done the same - although Jews and agnostics can also proudly point to their contributions to Western civilization.

5. State Religions are a bad idea? As a rule, yes - but that isn't the problem. England isn't exactly a 3rd world theocracy, despite C of E being the state religion. The scandanavian nations have had Lutheranism as their state religions for centuries and are also pleasant. Oh, if you are opposed to state religions I assume that you are opposed to the Dalai Lama returning to rule Tibet? China is in the right?

6. Have I forgotten [various Christian disasters]?
No, but I would be in my rights to. So people who called themselves Christians several centuries ago weren't perfect? So what?
Now, if you are claiming that Islam is where Christianity was half a millennia ago, then you may be right. Or not. But if you are, then surely they'd be better off jumping ship, and bootstrapping several centuries of cultural evolution?

7. Now, you are claiming that the problem isn't Islam, but instead State Religion. Separation of church and state is a creation of Christianity (which is why the mantra has 'church' not Mosque, Temple or Synagogue). If you consider State Religion wrong, you should acknowledge civilization's debt to Christianity!

(I'll only be able to check these boards every few days, so my apologies for my replies being delayed).

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Teufelchen
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Whitelaughter, I'm not going to pick through all that in detail. I think it's going to be much too hard to sort causes from effects in determining what problems exist in Muslim countries around the world. However, you still haven't given any kind of logical explanation of why you think that a country full of Muslims would automatically be hellish, and that's the point I take issue with most strongly.

And as for my 'devils' remark, what else would you call people whose presence makes a place Hell?

T.

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Little devil

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whitelaughter
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Automatically?
Causality - if 100% of known examples so far have been 'X' then, all future examples will probably be 'X'.
That's not an absolute proof, and it would be foolish for Muslims to give up on trying to improve their countries just because it's never happened before: however, my expectation that they will fail is as reasonable as my belief that the sun will rise tomorrow morning.
They've failed. We've succeeded (sort of). Using our successes as a springboard makes a lot more sense than trying ways which have been repeatedly tried without success. (Yes, I am aware that until about 1400 Islam was one of the high points of civilization. Learning from them back then was a good idea - and we did. Those days are long gone).

What would you call people who create Hell? How about 'people'?

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molopata

The Ship's jack
# 9933

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quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
Whitelaughter, I'm not going to pick through all that in detail. I think it's going to be much too hard to sort causes from effects in determining what problems exist in Muslim countries around the world. However, you still haven't given any kind of logical explanation of why you think that a country full of Muslims would automatically be hellish, and that's the point I take issue with most strongly.

I might have an explanation, which might coincidentally help us back on topic (as it is also a personal view I hold against Islam).
Christianity has a conceptional theological concept, whereas Islam's is concrete. Christian living is (er, or should be) governed by notions like love, faith, hope etc. (..."free from the law"), while Islam is governed by obedience and adherence to Mosaic-style law. Christians, at least today, would define Heaven as being in total union with God, with the details of the concept being left to God ("My father's house has many mansions."). Islam is more concrete and envisions quite a party with virgins galore. That might have appealed to Mohammed and his cronies, but it would not impress a 21st Century Western feminist. I also wonder what Ramadan in northern Sweden must be like in summer.
The point is, the Christian theological concept is more transposable from one culture/society to another, whereas Islam tends to define culture more strongly (and in the case of countries might have its catches). Given Islam's moral rigidity I surmise it prevents a culture moving much beyond the Middle Ages, where I think many Muslim countries are today, although I would stop short of declaring this hell. Christianity, on the other hand, can be more easily separated from its cultural background, and in fits, bouts and struggles is finding forms to nurture and remain valid in modern society today (e.g. this board, which I do not think would be possible in say Morocco).

[code]

[ 02. November 2005, 15:35: Message edited by: John Holding ]

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Llareggub
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Why am I not a Muslim?

I am not sure that a sociological debate around structure and action helps very much. We are what we are because the society into which we were born is what it is. But then that society in itself is only created and recreated through the meaningful actions of social actors. So we are still left with a hermeneutic bind. We cannot escape from a reality that is refracted through the prism of our individual experience.

However, if we accept the Incarnation, then the Christian message is not of human origination and, consequently, cannot be historically and culturally situated. Quite the reverse: it is a universal truth, part of which says “no one comes to the father except through me.” Take away the issues that some contemporary Christians irresponsibly insert into the meaning of this verse and there is nothing exclusive or offensive about it. “No one comes to the father except through me” is an affirmation of the revelation of God in the form of the incarnate Jesus Christ. It was a claim made prior to Mohammed. It is a claim that speaks to the core of our Christian identity. It is a claim that differentiates Christianity from Islam. That is right and proper because, indeed, it is through Jesus that we Christians claim our access to God.
That’s why I am not a Muslim

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I intend to live forever - so far so good.

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A Very Member Incorporate
Apprentice
# 10626

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[Little political correctness ahead]

I'm not a Muslim because, from a bluntly cynical view, Jesus was a guy that just wanted everyone to be good to eachother and was trying to reform a faith, not make a new one..and got nailed to a tree for it (Heh, some borrowing from Hitchhikers). Mohammed, on the other hand, got pissed at the Jews and thus decided he was going to leave with a bunch of other angry people and pray in another direction.

That's why.

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molopata

The Ship's jack
# 9933

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quote:
Originally posted by A Very Member Incorporate:
[Little political correctness ahead]

I'm not a Muslim because, from a bluntly cynical view, Jesus was a guy that just wanted everyone to be good to eachother and was trying to reform a faith, not make a new one..and got nailed to a tree for it (Heh, some borrowing from Hitchhikers). Mohammed, on the other hand, got pissed at the Jews and thus decided he was going to leave with a bunch of other angry people and pray in another direction.

That's why.

If I follow this correctly, you are saying reforming is better than staging a walkout. Why?

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... The Respectable

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Llareggub
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# 10210

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quote:

Originally posted by Molopata:
quote:
Originally posted by A Very Member Incorporate:
[Little political correctness ahead]

I'm not a Muslim because, from a bluntly cynical view, Jesus was a guy that just wanted everyone to be good to eachother and was trying to reform a faith, not make a new one..and got nailed to a tree for it (Heh, some borrowing from Hitchhikers). Mohammed, on the other hand, got pissed at the Jews and thus decided he was going to leave with a bunch of other angry people and pray in another direction.

That's why.

If I follow this correctly, you are saying reforming is better than staging a walkout. Why?
That seems to me a totally different and unrelated question

[code]

[ 02. November 2005, 15:39: Message edited by: John Holding ]

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I intend to live forever - so far so good.

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A Very Member Incorporate
Apprentice
# 10626

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My point was not exactly that one reformed while the other walked out, but that one was done in kindness and goodwill, and the other was an act of anger.
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molopata

The Ship's jack
# 9933

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quote:
Originally posted by A Very Member Incorporate:
My point was not exactly that one reformed while the other walked out, but that one was done in kindness and goodwill, and the other was an act of anger.

Thanks, that makes sense - and I agree totally.

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... The Respectable

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Barnabas62
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In answer to the OP.

I've spent too many years understanding and coming to terms with the various forms of fundamentalism in Christianity to even contemplate making a similar journey in Islam (where the condition seems much more prevalent).

Does the Koran have any equivalent to "love of enemies and praying for enemies"?

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Kwesi
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Much of this discussion has been based on the assumption that in Western societies conversion to Islam is unusual.

In the United States, however, a significant minority of African-Americans have converted to Islam- Casius Clay, perhaps, the most notable.

It might be instructive if we could hear from African-Americans who have made or not made the switch.

Failing that, perhaps there are experts who could help us.

An ideas?
[Confused]

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adamant azzy
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# 10636

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OK guys listen up.

I can tell you why I am not a Christian.

What I am going to say will make father Scanlon turn in his grave, ( And that would not be the first time.) And father Johnson will shake his head in Heaven and mumble something very un-christian.

I studied in a missionary school (Burn Hall),run by fransiscan fathers though I belonged to a Muslim family which was luckily not obscrantic or "fundamental" what ever that means. True to their name the fathers were ( or at the least some of them) really fathers to me. I was inquisitive and asked a lot of questions. This was before the arrival of obscurantist Islam in Pakistan. It was a very liberal country back then. ( and I assure you such an attitude goes against the grain of our people, this is an imported disease, seeded by US and Saudi money and waterd/nurtured by our corrupt politicians. we will regain our immunity to this virus one day and that day is not far off)
I attended mass out of sheer curiosity and even "received the sacrament". But no, I did not formally convert. However, what really put me off apart from the logical inconsistency within RCism, was the great deal of pomp and ceremony surrounding the simple act of praying to the 'Lord'. It looked like nothing but rigmarole to me. Please forgive me if I have offended any believer with these words. Then also the very complicated matter of Trinity. I could not understand the Trinity of God, nor could for the life of me understand the matter of God dying to save us all or to redeem our sins or coming down to earth etc etc. In all of the rather tautological arguments I see all over this blessed ship I can clearly sense that the typical Xtian simply does not understand how bizzare all this complex business appears to those who do not believe.

I was not too impressed by my parent's faith, finding much by way of omission and commission there to be able to call my self a Muslim either. Eventually I became an atheist. And I have now been one for fortyfive years.

Does not mean that I do not subscribe to any higher ideals. No. I believe that man has a higher distiny than that of an animal driven by raw wild urges and the evolutionary selection of the fittest. Man is the end product of a mysterious process whereby inanimate matter becomes aware of its own existance. We have a higher level to aspire to and achieve. Not out of fear of a God who will reward/ punish/ save/ condemn, but at our own volitionand for reasons far superior to those embraced by the followers of the Indoeuropean beliefsystems.
I think that in this process or journey we must discard God along the way. He is merely an anachronism. All the complicated webs we have woven around Him are simply man's own doing and not "divine". Belief in any conventional religion will only serve to destroy this process of self discovery and our forward march to a higher state of being.

A sincerely apologize again for what I have said as it may offend many of you. I do not mean to offend. I can say without any doubt that some of the finest people I have met in my life were very religious and many were devout Christians and I hold a very high regard for persons who have a conviction of what they believe. The "weak" agnost and other persons of a similar ilk are not to my liking.

A.A.

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....and I came back empty handed

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Birdseye

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# 5280

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Azzy -that's why I'm not a Roman Catholic either
there is a lot of useful stuff in Catholic Christianity for a lot of people -but it smacks too much of pagan tradition for me... which is one of the reasons I'm a Protestant, the other main reason is I think accessibility is very important in Christianity -it is an inclusive religion but a lot of the method, pomp and secrecy present in Catholic tradition seem there to distance us from God, when in fact Jesus called God 'father' and came to bring us into communion with God.

Although I'm saddened that there is not just ONE all-encompassing Christian faith but lots of little branches all separating off at different points, some more radically than others, still such differences in the faith are not just stumbling blocks but are in fact a way of keeping Christians humble -we must agree to disagree with our fellow Christians, we must humbly practice our faith, following our hearts and spirits in doing what we sincerely hope is right and keep above all differing doctrine or tradition, the most important commandment
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your mind and all your strength; And love your neighbour as yourself."

[ 07. November 2005, 14:44: Message edited by: Birdseye ]

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Life is what happens whilst you're busy making other plans.
a birdseye view

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adamant azzy
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# 10636

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Hi Barnabas,

quote:


Does the Koran have any equivalent to "love of enemies and praying for enemies"?


yes Barnabas, indeed it does. Only the Idiom is differant. Muslims believe that the Koran is the literal "word of god" and therefore cannot be / should not be translated. Translations extant have been done by scholars who were I fear were neither too scholarly nor to too well inclined towards Islam to do a good job and the present flock of Muslim so called "scholars" are dumb asses. Islam asks the Muslims to Forgive, which in this context is the same as love. A word that is not found in the Arabic idiom.

A.A.

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....and I came back empty handed

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adamant azzy
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quote:
OP'd by BirdEye
... such differences in the faith are not just stumbling blocks but are in fact a way of keeping Christians humble -we must agree to disagree with our fellow Christians,...

Strange conclusion to draw. it does not follow logically. But If it works for you it is good enough for you.

A.A.

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....and I came back empty handed

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Birdseye

I can see my house from here!
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Well although logic can be a handy tool to understand both the physical world and some instinctive behaviour, Christianity is not merely about the physical, and measurable, it is not about applying logic, it's about applying love. Logically, there is no point in giving away money to needy strangers in foreign countries none of whom will ever know; or forgiving drug-addicts who break into your house to steal; or sacrificing your life to save the life of a stranger.

The way of the world is not the same as God's way.


And it doesn't 'work for me' actually -I really mind that the church is fragmented, and I really mind that some people brought up since childhood into the doctrines of some churches suffer from a destructive sense of guilt or worthlessness which totally goes against the teaching of Jesus.
But imagining the result of total unity in the Christian church, knowing how human-nature is in this imperfect world, I can see a potential world-domination in which a unified TRADITION and not a genuine unified FAITH, would result in the whole church moving further away from God, rather than all individuals pushing closer to God in personal journeys of faith.

[ 07. November 2005, 15:34: Message edited by: Birdseye ]

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Birdseye

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# 5280

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I think what I'm trying to say is that I accept that God's wisdom far surpasses our understanding- and that although it seems odd that there are differences in his church -I do not think that it is wrong, or against his purpose -I think that the sense behind it is simply beyond my understanding... it could simply be that variations in doctrines and traditions, encompass and therefore save more people.
Perhaps our experiences of God are all somewhat diluted since biblical times, but in that dilution perhaps they are reaching many more people.

It's not for me to say what's right and working and what's wrong and not... but what I was originally trying to express is that your current knowledge/ experience of the Christian faith, is only a partial one.

It's like eating just one piece of fruit -finding a worm in it and saying 'I don't like fruit' because you conclude that, that is what all fruit is like.

In fact to extend the fruit/christianity metaphor -it's like very politely saying, 'I don't like fruit, but I respect the fact that some of you may like to eat worms'.

(I like my metaphors [Biased] )

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adamant azzy
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BirdsEye
quote:
....Christianity is not merely about the physical, and measurable, it is not about applying logic, it's about applying love...
Do you mean to say then that "Love" ( whatever that means) is / could be / should be illogical.

This is tautology.

If logic is not required to support any assertion, I could as well believe that the world, as we know it, was manufactured by little green popsicles from Alpha Taurus. The world is and in argument simply has to be logically consistent. I appreciate and respect your faith but not your arguments. I too have forgiven many who transgressed against me and I have nowhere to go to seek repentance for acts of transgression I have committed against other humans, despite the many years and the rivers of tears I have shed since. But I cannot concieve of this method to "explain " the "reason" behind everything I know. We need peace on this earth and yet more of "Faith" will not I fear, bring it.


A.A

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adamant azzy
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quote:
is that your current knowledge/ experience of the Christian faith, is only a partial one.

But that is argumentum ad hominim.

Agreed that I know lesser than you do about RCism/protestantism, still, what I know is enough to tell me that all religions ( and their followers) are rather essentially very much alike in certain respects.

They resist logical arguments.

I think you would make a good preacher. I say that as a complement. Probably are too. I will check your profile.

Please do not be ofended by anything I say. I respect/admire who and what you are.

A.A.

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Teufelchen
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quote:
Originally posted by adamant azzy:
quote:
is that your current knowledge/ experience of the Christian faith, is only a partial one.

But that is argumentum ad hominim.

Agreed that I know lesser than you do about RCism/protestantism...

It's not argumentum ad hominem to use a fact which you yourself concede in order to construct a logical position. It would be ad hominem to say 'You're stupid, so I'll ignore what you say', or something like that where personal criticism or (more usually) abuse is substituted for reasoned discussion.

T.

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adamant azzy
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Little devil/teufelchen

quote:
It's not argumentum ad hominem to use... in order to construct a logical position. It would be
emphasis mine

Ok. Ok. The point is conceded I stand corrected. What about the rest of my posting.


A.A.

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Lyda*Rose

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quote:
Originally posted by adamant azzy:
Hi Barnabas,

quote:


Does the Koran have any equivalent to "love of enemies and praying for enemies"?


yes Barnabas, indeed it does. Only the Idiom is differant. Muslims believe that the Koran is the literal "word of god" and therefore cannot be / should not be translated. Translations extant have been done by scholars who were I fear were neither too scholarly nor to too well inclined towards Islam to do a good job and the present flock of Muslim so called "scholars" are dumb asses. Islam asks the Muslims to Forgive, which in this context is the same as love. A word that is not found in the Arabic idiom.

A.A.

Arabic does not have a word for love? No word for love between parents and children, friends, husbands and wives?

Wow. I learn something new every day. That could explain a lot about the severity of Islam.

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molopata

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quote:
Originally posted by adamant azzy:
BirdsEye
quote:
....Christianity is not merely about the physical, and measurable, it is not about applying logic, it's about applying love...
Do you mean to say then that "Love" ( whatever that means) is / could be / should be illogical.

This is tautology.

If logic is not required to support any assertion, I could as well believe that the world, as we know it, was manufactured by little green popsicles from Alpha Taurus. The world is and in argument simply has to be logically consistent. I appreciate and respect your faith but not your arguments. I too have forgiven many who transgressed against me and I have nowhere to go to seek repentance for acts of transgression I have committed against other humans, despite the many years and the rivers of tears I have shed since. But I cannot concieve of this method to "explain " the "reason" behind everything I know. We need peace on this earth and yet more of "Faith" will not I fear, bring it.


A.A

If you follow Immanuel Kant, then we can't really say an awful lot about anything, as any knowledge of the world we have is detected by our senses, and is thus intrinsically subjective and prone to deception. My whole notion of the world could be an illusion. To go beyond this, i.e. to do anything at all, we need at least some faith in something. Most people believe that what they perceive with their senses has at least something to do with the cosmic reality, but this is in the purest sense a statement of faith.
What we call logic is potentially only a set of perceived rules which we apply to govern what our senses feed into our conscience. E.g. our logic of 3D space had to be rethought in light of relativity theory, which still does not tarry with the logic of our everyday experience. We must therefore suspect any logic we have so far applied is only a rather two dimensional description of the total reality of the world.
Christian teaching, ie. Paul in 1 Cor 13 (notably on the subject of Love) talks of us seeing "only refelctions in a mirror, mere riddles", meaning that our knowledge and logic are limited and our perception cannot comprehend the full truth. In the last analysis, all that can drive us are hope, faith and love, of which love is the greatest. Paul argues that Love is the very fabric of Creation, and when all is said and done, that is all that remains.

I hope this might cast a little light on Birdeye's statement.

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adamant azzy
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I am not an expert but believe there are over 30 words for love in Arabic. It is just not used that way.

I doubt that I will convince you either way. You prejudge. For All the love in Xtianity, I just look at history and know the ugly face of reality for it is.

That's all there is to it.

A.A.

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adamant azzy
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quote:
OP'd by Molopata T R ....To go beyond this, i.e. to do anything at all, we need at least some faith in something....
In the Kantian way, every perception can be suspected to be nothing but a figment of our imaginations. Well then as you explained we have to agree to someting for any arguments to proceed further. Now in this case we would be trying to start from the common denominator of experiences that can be shared , repeatedly demonstarted, and in general believed to be the same for all of us. Now why should we immedietely go back to and add unbelievable and imaginary to the common stock. Religionists on to the foundation of this least common denominotor of shared perceptions, which could be held to be universally accepted, immedietely tack on their not commononly held belief in God to the pot. It is interesting to see arguments invoking a God when in the first place we have neither defined what/who He is nor that all agree to His very existance. And then not only "A" God but rather his particular brand of "God".

Beats me everytime. Let me go whimper somewhere.

A.A.

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molopata

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...so we should agree to some brand of Un-God?

Q.E.D. Atheism is only one statement of faith/belief.

You have however said why you are not a Muslim.

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... The Respectable

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Lyda*Rose

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quote:
Originally posted by adamant azzy:
I am not an expert but believe there are over 30 words for love in Arabic. It is just not used that way.

I doubt that I will convince you either way. You prejudge. For All the love in Xtianity, I just look at history and know the ugly face of reality for it is.

That's all there is to it.

A.A.

Things I've heard of Islam sound strict and sometimes severe especially in Sharia law. Since I understood you to say that Arabic didn't have the word love:
quote:
Islam asks the Muslims to Forgive, which in this context is the same as love. A word that is not found in the Arabic idiom.

I thought that might be a clue to why this is so. But since you seem to have originally expressed yourself unclearly on the Arabic "idiom", saying now that there are over thirty words for love, I guess it isn't. Other than that last post, the only participation I've made on this thread is on the first page, where I made more of a statement of why I was a Christian rather than a strong reason why I am not a Muslim. Where you get that that I "prejudge" when I only responded to the so-called fact you stated about the Arabic language, I don't know.

There has been, and honestly still is ugliness (to put it mildly) done by Christians who believe God is on their side; just look at the present war in Iraq. Massacre was done on a scale of millions in Stalinist Russia where atheism was heavily pushed in school and public policy. AND there are places where adulterous women are buried up to their necks and stoned to death (but not their partners in "crime") in communities where Sharia law is enforced. There have been individuals and societies of most belief systems that have been either saintly or demonic. And if the terms "strict" and "severe" seem unduly harsh to you in reference to Islamic law, I'm afraid that's the way I see it.

[ 07. November 2005, 20:00: Message edited by: Lyda*Rose ]

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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adamant azzy
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I agree with most of what you say. However I would like to point out that there is a huge difference between "muslim" and "Islamic". I am not even a remotely practicing muslim. I formaly fill my religion as agnost ( calling myself an atheist could possibly lead to charges of blasphemy) in official forms, which leads to great deal of trouble for me here. I have been baptised ( we call it buptusma) even if in innocence. Remember this country is now ruled by mullahs. But I have to point for honesty sake that your vision of islam as a strict and cruel religion is way off the mark. It is like the Bible, where I can show you verses if followed literally would lead to havoc.(and have indeed in the past). I won't quote but if you wish to I can copiously oblige. Islam is made out to be strict by its current leaders, ayatollahs etc. Not so intrinsically. the much repeated refrain is to "show mercy!" as "allah prefers mercy". " For he is a God of mercy." Call it Love if you will.

A.A.

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adamant azzy
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Lydarose Hi

quote:
AND there are places where adulterous women are buried up to their necks and stoned to death (but not their partners in "crime") in communities where Sharia law is enforced.
What place?

Im over 60 and in all my years, many of which were spent living in this country, the second most populous muslim state, where I now reside, there has never been a single case of a woman being " buried to her neck and stoned to death." This is what the mullahs claim they will do. Or cutting of hands which the mullahs say they will do. but the people are basically humane. Your media's opinion notwithstanding

It shall never to to pass. and we will have this mullah virus out of our system ere long too.

trust me.

A.A.

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adamant azzy
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Lyda*Rose. I'll add another bit for you to ponder. In 1975 Ziaulahq came to power with the help of US of A. He promulgated the so called "shariah" and the first case tried under the law was awarded "chop off the right hand" sentence by a mullah court, now defunct. A doctor was required to carry out the sentence. The doctors one and all refused, and we have thousands of them. Despite the geat power of the state, the sentence was never executed. It is not Islamic and hardly Muslim. for the Muslims as a body refused to accept it.
A.A.

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Lynn MagdalenCollege
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quote:
*3) Allah is the arabic for God, specified as the same God as the God of the OT, and Jesus is recognised as one of his prophets

This is a critical error (and it's not personal, LOTS of people fall into it): simply because Islam presents "Allah" as the same god as "Yahweh/Jehovah" does not make it true. Having read the Bible many times and having read very large chunks (not exhaustively all, I admit it) of the Koran/Qu'ran, I can assure these books are NOT talking about the same entity. As a Christian, the Spirit of God within me bears witness to the misrepresentation.

I mean, I could say that digory and lynn are the same person, but it wouldn't make it true...

And while it may have been common to marry girls at 12-14 years of age, I think even back then a 9-year-old was a leetle young...

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Lynn MagdalenCollege
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
The problem I have with Islam is that although Mohammed said, "there is no compulsion in religion" Islam is a religion of compulsion. Christians are exhroted to give to charity, Muslims are compelled, to the point that in Islamic societies, goods can be confiscated by the authorities to compel charity. Conversions have been forced on pain of death throughout the history of Islam and it is a religion which officially sanctions the murder of infidels. It is no use leading Muslims saying that Islam promotes peace, its entire ethos is directed towards compelling compliance by force, if necessary.

But historically, only Christianity can rival Islam in the brutality stakes. There's no need to go into the appalling history of Christianity's inquisitions and pogroms and its merciless persecutions of heretics and Jews to realise that the nastiness of Christianity and Islam are two sides of the same coin of excessive exclusivism. That represents, IMO, a serious fault in the underlying nature of those religions.

I think the question goes to whether the brutality is inherent in the religion - I don't know anybody living today who believes that Christianity was rightly interpreted or practiced by those who used violence to further their "Christian" agenda. But the word "islam" itself means "Submit/Submission" - compulsion in inherent in Islam, whereas Yahweh/Jehovah says "I set before you life and death, blessings and cursings - choose life that you might live" - God instructs us the right way to choose and then lets us do it wrong... amazing.

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Lynn MagdalenCollege
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quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
quote:
Originally posted by Jazzuk777:
i.e. how can someone who claims to be God, be an honoured prophet?

If one believed that these words developed later in the tradition, and did not originate all the way back to Jesus, and that Jesus did not believe them about himself -- then, voila, honored prophet is not contradictory.

Not claiming that this is how Islam views the Bible, just pointing out that the honoured prophet view is not necessarily illogical.

the conflict is not the "honored prophet" title but that Islam teaches explicitly that "God is not begotten nor does He beget" - which means that Jesus cannot be the only begotten Son of God the Father, according to Islam. Islam relegates Jesus to the position of "honored prophet and ONLY honored prophet" - Christianity recognizes Him as "honored prophet" AND Son of God, Word of God Incarnate.

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Niënna

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# 4652

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quote:
Originally posted by LynnMagdalenCollege:
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
The problem I have with Islam is that although Mohammed said, "there is no compulsion in religion" Islam is a religion of compulsion. Christians are exhroted to give to charity, Muslims are compelled, to the point that in Islamic societies, goods can be confiscated by the authorities to compel charity. Conversions have been forced on pain of death throughout the history of Islam and it is a religion which officially sanctions the murder of infidels. It is no use leading Muslims saying that Islam promotes peace, its entire ethos is directed towards compelling compliance by force, if necessary.

But the word "islam" itself means "Submit/Submission" - compulsion in inherent in Islam, whereas Yahweh/Jehovah says <snip>
I actually love the word "islam." I like that it combines submission and peace.

quote:
The Arabic term 'islam means "submission" and itself comes from the term 'aslama, which means "to surrender, resign oneself." In Islam, the fundamental duty of each member is to submit to Allah (Arabic for "the God") and whatever Allah wants of them. A person who follows Islam is called a Muslim, and this means "one who surrenders to God."

The term Islam is related to the Syriac 'aslem which means "to make peace, surrender" and that in turn appears to be derived from the Semitic stem of *slem which means to be complete.

Islam is closely related to the Arabic word for peace, salem. Muslims believe that true peace can only be achieved through true obedience to the will of Allah. Commitment to Islam is supposed to result in a constant struggle to achieve peace, justice and equality.

Islam is about living in the world in harmony with the reason we were created. Islam's standpoint is that there is only one God who created us all and who did so in order for us to follow the path he leads us towards.

Now for us to be happy and satisfied, we need to surrender (Islam means surrender or release) ourselves to this concept. The concept that there is one God only and that we are here to try our best to reach him.
(exerpt from: this website

I often think that the only True muslim and follower of peace and submission was Jesus himself.

quote:

Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
(Philippians 2:5-11)



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Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
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quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
If the Old Testament God is the same God Christians and Muslims worship, why were the New Testament and the prophet at all necessary?

I've already posted (earlier today! I'm trying to read my way through this thread and practice the discipline of NOT responding to every thought-provoking entry!) that I do not believe that "Allah" is the same God of the Bible (both "old" and "new" testaments). But why is the New Testament necessary if it's the same God? Because the book wasn't finished yet, the Messiah hadn't come yet, all prophecies not fulfilled yet (and they still aren't - God continues to work His purpose out in this world). Jesus, who I know to be Messiah (or Christ, if you prefer Greek), was Jewish and states very clearly "Salvation is of the Jews," knowing full well that He Himself encompassed salvation and had come, as promised, to the Jews. God sets up this structure to teach humanity about sin and the cost of sin, what it takes to forgive sin (innocent blood), what are good wise life choices and what are foolish, showing us that we cannot possibly manage a perfect sinless life - it's just literally not "in" us to do it - and then He brings the solution and suffers Himself, in our place.

It's one big book and definitely one God. Folks often say "the God of the old testament was a God of judgment and wrath" and contrast that with the clear teaching of grace in the new testament - but God in the OT exercises great patience and mercy and brings judgment only after great provocation. YES, it's a challenge to grapple with God saying, "Go and kill them all," but He didn't *always* give that instruction, which leads me to believe that frequently (usually?!) we do not understand the reasons why God does what He does - both then *and* now.

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Lynn MagdalenCollege
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quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:


If we believe that our God is the only deity who exists, then how can we claim that anyone else praying to the only deity who exists is praying to a different god?

Because there *are* different "gods" - the Bible talks about "little 'g' gods" quite a lot; it is very much Christian and Judaic tradition to recognize the reality of the spiritual, that the God we worship created all that exists (including the space-time continuum) and some of those non-human creatures are 1. very powerful and 2. fell (developed their own agenda).

This is part of why who/what you worship matters: you can be feeding energy into a being whose ultimate goal is to consume you and see you destroyed. I believe there are a lot of man-made religions out there because it's part of our wiring to worship (we're going to worship *something*, even if it's as pitiful as our own intellect) and I believe that fallen spirits can and do corrupt human religions - but I also suspect some religions are inherently demonic, from their inception on, that their "inspiration" was not Divine but demonic.

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Lynn MagdalenCollege
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quote:
Originally posted by adamant azzy:
...I attended mass out of sheer curiosity and even "received the sacrament". But no, I did not formally convert. However, what really put me off apart from the logical inconsistency within RCism, was the great deal of pomp and ceremony surrounding the simple act of praying to the 'Lord'. It looked like nothing but rigmarole to me. Please forgive me if I have offended any believer with these words. Then also the very complicated matter of Trinity. I could not understand the Trinity of God, nor could for the life of me understand the matter of God dying to save us all or to redeem our sins or coming down to earth etc etc. In all of the rather tautological arguments I see all over this blessed ship I can clearly sense that the typical Xtian simply does not understand how bizzare all this complex business appears to those who do not believe...

...Does not mean that I do not subscribe to any higher ideals. No. I believe that man has a higher distiny than that of an animal driven by raw wild urges and the evolutionary selection of the fittest. Man is the end product of a mysterious process whereby inanimate matter becomes aware of its own existance. We have a higher level to aspire to and achieve. Not out of fear of a God who will reward/ punish/ save/ condemn, but at our own volitionand for reasons far superior to those embraced by the followers of the Indoeuropean beliefsystems.
I think that in this process or journey we must discard God along the way. He is merely an anachronism. All the complicated webs we have woven around Him are simply man's own doing and not "divine". Belief in any conventional religion will only serve to destroy this process of self discovery and our forward march to a higher state of being.

First, thank you for a really interesting post. Second, I daresay (even though I am not RC, I do believe in the sacramental) that while you may have consumed the elements of the Eucharist, you did not receive the 'sacrament' (which probably sounds like hair-splitting but is, I believe, a huge difference). Without converting and being baptized the 'sacrament' was not available to you.

Third, you are so right! Many (most?) Christians don't realize how wacky our beliefs sound to non-Christians! I actually suffer from the opposite and I realize that, from a certain perspective, these beliefs are ridiculous. But I am also convinced it is objective truth, which is why I believe it. If you don't believe it, despite having been correctly taught, then I must assume you are not one of "the elect" and it *won't* make sense to you (--sorry--).

Fourth, and meaning no offense to you (as you kindly meant no offense to Christians, etc.) I think the viewing God as an anachronism is very sad and embodies quite well the proverb: "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" - and the fact that I think this and see its application to you will, again, not be understood (or else dismissed of indicating that I am stuck in a retrograde developmental state, destroying the process of self-discovery and impeding the march toward a higher state of being!).

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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical

Posts: 6263 | From: California | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

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quote:
Originally posted by adamant azzy:
Lydarose Hi

quote:
AND there are places where adulterous women are buried up to their necks and stoned to death (but not their partners in "crime") in communities where Sharia law is enforced.
What place?

Im over 60 and in all my years, many of which were spent living in this country, the second most populous muslim state, where I now reside, there has never been a single case of a woman being " buried to her neck and stoned to death." This is what the mullahs claim they will do. Or cutting of hands which the mullahs say they will do. but the people are basically humane. Your media's opinion notwithstanding

It shall never to to pass. and we will have this mullah virus out of our system ere long too.

trust me.

A.A.

Sorry, not buried up to her neck- just up to her chest. My bad. And men are occasionally executed in such a way (buried to the waist), although the percentage seems to be much higher for women.
quote:
While in theory this high burden of proof protects both men and women from baseless accusations, the application of the law has prompted charges of gender bias. Since Sokoto introduced Sharia law last year, four women have been charged with adultery--all because they were pregnant.

Thus far, only Huseini has been declared guilty of adultery, but another pregnant woman was convicted of the lesser crime of fornication, or sex before marriage, and sentenced to one year in prison. Women in other states have also been found guilty and lashed.

Though men in Nigeria readily brag about their mistresses, not a single one has been charged with adultery. ~Women's E News


Since I understand that the burden of proof of guilt is lighter for women than men, perhaps that's not to be wondered. Four witnesses of penetration (for men); pregnancy (for women). Thus the men who get these women pregnant go scot-free, unless they happened to have participated in a sex-show for their pals.
quote:
The legitimacy of stoning as a form of punishment is derived from the hadith, sayings and written records of the prophet Muhammad. Stoning is not mentioned in the Koran. Penal codes tend to prescribe the execution of the stoning in detail. Thus, men are buried up to their waste[sic], women up to their chest (Art. 102, Iranian Penal Code). Article 104 of the Iranian Penal Code prescribes the size of the stones, which must not be too large as to kill the person immediately, but not too small either.

Article on Sharia law, admittedly biased against stoning specifically. And the article points out that even most governments that operate under Sharia law avoid that harshest of punishments as much as possible.

So, to lay my cards on the table, I'm not a Muslim because besides liking my form of Christianity, being a woman Muslim in most cases seems to mean a big step down in rights and respect.

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

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Posted to add that, no, I don't think all Muslim culture is inhumane. Most people everywhere just do their best to live within the social contract, live productively, raise kids, and make friends and do some thinking about spirituality and/or the meaning of life.

I just hope that you are right, AA, and the strict mullahs don't get total ascendency, just as I hope we in the US kick war-mongers and officials like VP Cheney who want to leave the door open to torture as a tool of policy out of office soon. Talk about "inhumane". [Disappointed] [brick wall]

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Birdseye

I can see my house from here!
# 5280

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quote:
Do you mean to say then that "Love" ( whatever that means) is / could be / should be illogical.

This is tautology.

If logic is not required to support any assertion, I could as well believe that the world, as we know it, was manufactured by little green popsicles from Alpha Taurus. The world is and in argument simply has to be logically consistent. I appreciate and respect your faith but not your arguments. I too have forgiven many who transgressed against me and I have nowhere to go to seek repentance for acts of transgression I have committed against other humans, despite the many years and the rivers of tears I have shed since. But I cannot concieve of this method to "explain " the "reason" behind everything I know. We need peace on this earth and yet more of "Faith" will not I fear, bring it.

Azzy, do you know what the word 'tautology' means?
It is when one overstates something- repeats the meaning or sense, if, for example, I were to say that something was 'unthinkable and incomprehensible' that would be somewhat tautological -but I did not say that, I said that sometimes, when we act out of love, it goes against apparent 'logic'. To follow logic, is not to adopt any kind of code of ethics, or moral behaviour, it is simply to act like a machine... 'if 'a' is true, then 'b' is such and such' .

Logic CAN be used to support an assertion, but sooner or later, it falls down, that is why mathematicians struggle to map the world using logical formulae -because the world does not act entirely according to logic, there are random and illogical aspects to the world that one must consider -most of which stem from the human brain.

Allow me to neatly demonstrate this using logic...

statement a).Illogical action exists in the world therefore the world cannot be expressed using logic alone.

statement b)Nothing illogical exists in the world, therefore everything in the world can be expressed using logic.

statement c)I believe in God.

Taking statement c) as the only incontrovertible truth as I know it to be so, we can therefore conclude that either my belief in God is illogical and therefore statement a) is true as I am acting illogically;
Or my belief in God is logical, and therefore your non-belief in God is illogical and therefore statement a) is true.

Since I have proven that statement a) is true in both opposite cases, I have proven that not everything in the world can be expressed using logic alone.

As I have also just shown- I am amply capable of using logic to back up my arguements -however finding logic inadequate and misleading, I choose generally speaking to use example .

Re: your guess, I am NOT a preacher.

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Life is what happens whilst you're busy making other plans.
a birdseye view

Posts: 1615 | From: West Yorkshire | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
adamant azzy
Shipmate
# 10636

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quote:
Azzy, do you know what the word 'tautology' means?

Oh dearie me. Have I been caught using bombastic words to impress shipmates? [Hot and Hormonal] [Hot and Hormonal] [Hot and Hormonal]

I thought I knew the meaning of tautology. Now maybe I don't?

It certainly means a sort of repetition of something already implied in the statement. Like my saying " all at once I suddenly remembered that... etc"

In logic there is probably a differant shade of meaning and possibly I was using the word in that way. I,m not too sure, after all my 'mother tongue' is not Q.E.'s English. ( I passed it by copying my neighbours answer sheets) And then us Pakis like to take revenge for being cruelly ruled by the farangi for 200Ys. And what better than to punish the Queens English.

The other sense I could explain by an example that maybe you can relate to. Lets say, for instance, it is charged that natural selection is a tautologous concept since the "fittest" are those who survive, who in turn are labelled the "fittest." So like wise to "prove" the veracity of a concept you rely upon logic that uses the truth of the concept as a basic fact/support.

Any way maybe I stand corrected/admonished for bombast. Sorry will use simpler language in the future. Like ga ga ma ma Duh Duh, Hmmm. many more shipmates can 'read me' that way.
quote:
Logic CAN be used to support an assertion, but sooner or later, it falls down, that is why mathematicians struggle to map the world using logical formulae -because the world does not act entirely according to logic, there are random and illogical aspects to the world that one must consider -most of which stem from the human brain , there are random and illogical aspects to the world that one must consider -most of which stem from the human brain
Emphasis is mine.
Apart from that I couldnt see the logic in the example you have provided. There are no illogical and random aspects to this world. Except in the imagination of some individuals.

Any way my apologies for using terms of which I have no idea of the meaning.
promise not to repeat.
A.A.

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....and I came back empty handed

Posts: 84 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Birdseye

I can see my house from here!
# 5280

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quote:
Apart from that I couldnt see the logic in the example you have provided. There are no illogical and random aspects to this world. Except in the imagination of some individuals. A.A.

Well the fact that you qualify that statement with an exception means that there's really no need for me to explain further... Quod Erat Demonstrandum as they say! [Biased]

I will just add though, that the world is shaped by the human imagination-without it there would be no buildings, no bridges, no vehicles, no artwork... in short, nothing that required any creative thought.
So to dimiss the human imagination from your understanding of the world is -well it's not possible.


However -no need to limit your language to babytalk as you suggested (rather irritably) -but it's probably a good idea to use the most concise words possible...

Otherwise we could spend all day discussing the potential misinterpretations of certain words, rather than the subject at hand.

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Life is what happens whilst you're busy making other plans.
a birdseye view

Posts: 1615 | From: West Yorkshire | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158

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quote:
Originally posted by LynnMagdalenCollege:
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:


If we believe that our God is the only deity who exists, then how can we claim that anyone else praying to the only deity who exists is praying to a different god?

Because there *are* different "gods" - the Bible talks about "little 'g' gods" quite a lot; it is very much Christian and Judaic tradition to recognize the reality of the spiritual, that the God we worship created all that exists (including the space-time continuum) and some of those non-human creatures are 1. very powerful and 2. fell (developed their own agenda).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying that the God of the Qu'ran is some kind of demon or pagan figure (but real), while the God of the Bible is the Creator of the World.

The Qu'ran clearly describes its God as being the creator of the world, the God of Abraham, Ishamael, Joseph, Moses, John the Baptist and Jesus. Now it says different things about their relationship to that God from what the Bible says. But does that necessarily mean that it depicts some other creature than God, rather than simply being a depiction of God with which you, Lynn, disagree?

Is the God of the Book of Mormon a different being from the God of the Bible? How about the Jehovah's Witnesses' version of God, where Jehovah is the creator as described above, but Jesus is a lesser divine being of the sort you seem to think Allah must be?

Your views remind me of the Gnostics who believed that the vengeful God of the Old Testament was the erring creation (called Yaldabaoth or Sammael) of the creator spirit Sophia.

T.

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Little devil

Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged



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