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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: God witholding marriage from the single person
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nouwen
Shipmate
# 3103
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Posted
A friend of my recently cried all over me (and with tears runnning down her face) said "I am a married women, living in a single person's life".
This set me thinking about marriage and God's hand in it. As a post-evangelical / charasmatic, I've been brought up with a view of 'name it and claim it' or God will give us the desire of out hearts etc, etc, etc.
However, where does marriage for my friend fit in? What if she fails to find fulfilment in 'single' life but is never married. What if, deep within she knowns that her life needs ot be joined with another, but that 'other' never comes along. What theology helps this?
[ 21. October 2005, 07:37: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]
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Speaking the truth is not the same as being negative.
Posts: 477 | From: Oxford | Registered: Jul 2002
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Paul W.
Shipmate
# 1450
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Posted
I find the theology of swearing at God and telling him where to stick his "gift of singleness" helps quite a bit. It's theraputic anyway.
Paul W
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"It's just a ride" - Bill Hicks
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Posts: 2835 | From: Leeds, UK | Registered: Oct 2001
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
maybe if she desperately *needs* another she needs to look at her reasons why and work on herself a bit first.....
desperation never really looks good.
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Niënna
Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652
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Posted
...As most of my friends are getting married, getting engaged, some have kids...
...it is easier for me to deal my single lot just knowing that the gift of life is currently enough for me. Nothing in this is life is certain not health, wealth, personal appearance, or relationships. I can be unhappy about many things or I can look at the many good things I do have, like my two eyeballs and two hands...etc.
None of this I guess has to do with God. Sometimes being a previous atheist helps. You don't blame God because there is no god to blame.
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[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land
Posts: 2298 | From: Purgatory | Registered: Jun 2003
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
Also...
marriage doesnt bring fulfillmennt, and can be as lonely as the "single life" at times...
Still, I do grant a nice cuddle, and someone there at the end of the day would be nice.
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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nouwen
Shipmate
# 3103
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Emma.:
marriage doesnt bring fulfillmennt, and can be as lonely as the "single life" at times...
Thank you for the obvious, we would never have guessed ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
My friend (and many who I know are single) do not tend to have a 'grass is greener' idea; rather their view is why am I stuck in this single life when I long go be connected.
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Speaking the truth is not the same as being negative.
Posts: 477 | From: Oxford | Registered: Jul 2002
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
What if I long to be a celebrity, but find myself condemned to non-entityhood? What if I am a rich man leading a poor man's life? What if, deep down, I know I am meant to be brilliant and witty, but can't break out of my dull and predictable personality? What if my true calling is to be single, but I find myself stuck in a marriage, connected to someone else, and surrounded by c/h/i/l/d/r/e/n emotional leeches?
I suppose I'm attacking the self pity of the single, and I'm married so have no business to. I don't know what it's like. I have heard people speak with great feeling about their hurt at unchosen singleness. I don't want to make light of it. But. There's plenty of muck to go round in life. And part of the problems of many of us is a foolish sense of being hard done by. As if it was someone's fault that we can't get married, or have bad teeth, or too many kids, or a dreary job, or a chronic illness, or such dreadful neighbours. We'd get on better if we didn't dwell on the unfairness. It shouldn't be like this, but it is, so ...
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
She should get some hobbies and stop thinking about it so much. And she should figure out how to enjoy life alone. Tough love, maybe, but what's the alternative? She can't forcibly change her marital status. All she can change is herself.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by nouwen:
What if, deep within she knowns that her life needs ot be joined with another, but that 'other' never comes along. What theology helps this?
This is an important theme in the theology of my denomination. Here is a statement often taken to heart by people like your friend:
quote:
For people who desire true love, the Lord provides it, and if it is not found on earth, He provides it in heaven. This results from the fact that all true love and all true marriages are provided by the Lord.
I don't know how helpful it is to say that if you don't find someone on earth you will find them in heaven. I do think that it is true.
I like the idea that conjugial pairs are born and guided by divine providence towards each other throughout their lives. But this idea does raise a number of theological problems. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
[ 09. September 2005, 00:09: Message edited by: Freddy ]
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Duo Seraphim*
Sea lawyer
# 3251
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
She should get some hobbies and stop thinking about it so much. And she should figure out how to enjoy life alone. Tough love, maybe, but what's the alternative? She can't forcibly change her marital status. All she can change is herself.
Everyone should have a hobby - something that engages them and which isn't work or sleeping. Having a full life is certainly better than staring at the walls and obsessing about how alone you are. Lots of friends and activities, a sense of engagement in the life of others - the fuller meaning of love in the "caritas" or "agape" sense. All of us single folk have to confront being alone and it certainly doesn't do to stare at the walls, bemoaning your fate.
But however full your life, if you feel the need to connect with and share your life with someone else in the marriage or partnership sense, then that need is not met, however many friends and actitivities you have.
I understand nouwen's friend to be feeling that particular lack, that there is a good that God has bestowed on others - someone to be their partner and to share their life - that He has denied her. And then it is reasonable to ask why.
The "why" is to do with the will of God, which I can only ever understand imperfectly. Is it some sort of Divine compliment: you are strong enough to live the life I intend for you, without a partner. Is it a question of releasing that person from the obligation to tend one relationship to use their talents to love on a wider basis say to love a community rather than simply one other person. Is it that you have not yet become the person you should be to participate fully in marriage? Is it simple bad luck or that God does not micromanage our lives? Did we fail to seize the oportunity God sent us? Did we try to form a partnership with someone who would have been wrong for us, so that God subtly intervened to prevent us from hurting ourselves or from being damaged?
I suppose I'm saying that it would be nice to be given the chance to try, even if it doesn't work out. Not having that chance, when society is so oriented towards coupledom - that's hard.
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2^8, eight bits to a byte
Posts: 3967 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim*:
I understand nouwen's friend to be feeling that particular lack, that there is a good that God has bestowed on others - someone to be their partner and to share their life - that He has denied her. And then it is reasonable to ask why.
Is it? Does nouwen's friend also want to know why God has bestowed good things on her that other people lack? Does she cry all over her friends because God has unfairly granted her good health, because she never goes hungry, because her home is dry and the power is on and fresh pure water comes out of the tap at the touch of a faucet?
Why do we act as if God owes us an explanation when we don't get what we want, but accept the things we want without a second thought?
Solomon said that the fastest person doesn't always win the race, that the wisest person may not have enough to eat, but time and chance happen to all of us. Sometimes there isn't a reason for our difficulties, beyond the fact that we live in a fallen world.
Maybe nouwen's friend would benefit from reading The Road Less Travelled by M. Scott Peck. Not exactly a Christian book, but it could help her figure out how to deal with her pain.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Paul W. writes: quote:
I find the theology of swearing at God and telling him where to stick his "gift of singleness" helps quite a bit. It's theraputic anyway.
It works for me too. (I can hear God now: " Oy veh, it's Paul and LutheranChik again! Enough with the whining already!")
I find it interesting that a poster seems to equate having a mutually committed, loving, respectful life partnership with "getting a hobby." I've also had people tell me to just hang out with my platonic friends more. Ironically, these helpful hints for happiness all come from...ahem... happily married people.
When married people start lecturing me on how I should feel or what I should do to revel in my singlehood...as an old German acquaintance of mine used to say, "So viel Blah-blah-blah." What. Ever.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
And, BTW, I have a multitude of interests, do caregiving for an elder parent, am taking classes, am multitasking all day long, have a delightful assortment of platonic friends and acquaintances...and I still get weary of being single.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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ecumaniac
Ship's whipping girl
# 376
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Posted
Just because one of my hobbies is whinging about being single:
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I've also had people tell me to just hang out with my platonic friends more.
Yeah, I get that too. But have you noticed that as time goes on, one by one your platonic friends get matched up and ever so subtly you get to see less and less of them? And one is ever more doomed if one's platonic friends are of the opposite gender.
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) to overly paranoid gfs of my friends.
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it's a secret club for people with a knitting addiction, hiding under the cloak of BDSM - Catrine
Posts: 2901 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Jun 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by josephine:
quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim*:
I understand nouwen's friend to be feeling that particular lack, that there is a good that God has bestowed on others - someone to be their partner and to share their life - that He has denied her. And then it is reasonable to ask why.
Is it? Does nouwen's friend also want to know why God has bestowed good things on her that other people lack? Does she cry all over her friends because God has unfairly granted her good health, because she never goes hungry, because her home is dry and the power is on and fresh pure water comes out of the tap at the touch of a faucet?
Why do we act as if God owes us an explanation when we don't get what we want, but accept the things we want without a second thought?
Speak for yourself. I don't cry all over my friends because God has granted me good health and a whole lot of other things, but I really would like to know why God has bestowed on me so many things that other people lack. I certainly do not accept the things I want without a second thought. I may not always be as grateful as I should be, but I hardly think I'm entitled to the things that I have that are just flat-out gifts from God.
So I don't feel at all bad for occasionally crying out to God when something really hurts, wanting to know why I have such pain. It's completely legitimate.
As for the advice that nouwen's friend should get a hobby, stop thinking about it so much, and learn to enjoy life alone -- been there, done that, got all the collectible action figures. I'd add chanting this mantra: "It's better to be alone than to be in a bad relationship." But let's face it, if someone feels that being in a good relationship would be better than being alone, no matter how well-adjusted they are and no matter how full and rewarding their life is, there are still going to be those times when they go home and cry or punch a hole in the wall because it's just so painful to be alone.
What I would suggest to someone in the position of nouwen's friend is that perhaps this conviction, this knowledge that she is not meant to be alone, is really just desire, not knowledge. And as the Stones told us long ago, you can't always get what you want.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
nouwen, tell your friend not to give up. If a meaningful, intimate relationship with another person is a priority, then she should give it all the effort and attention she can muster. There is no reason to justify failure by 'getting used to it' or any other condescending platitudes. Guys appreciate intelligence, confidence, magnanimity, cheerfulness, good humour and (personally) aggressive honest sexuality.
Tell her to cheer up, get out there and go for it.
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--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
This may or may not be a stupid contribution. I'm not sure. But I was in a similar though not identical discussion earlier this evening. On suffering actually.
The two comments I took away were "Instead of asking 'why me?' I ask 'why not me?'" and "I've given myself permission not to have to understand why."
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Dee.
Ship's Theological Acrobat
# 5681
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Posted
aggressive honest sexuality
Wow, (rapidly takes notes)
Part of what workes for me is focusing on wanting the things that I already have. That means fully engaging in all of the relationships and frienships that i have and trying to enjoy my work and my play.
Then I find that I dont think about being single so much because I have other stuff to enjoy. I do really struggle at times but I know when that happens that i wont always hate it so much and it helps not to feel like you are always going to feel this miserable.
I also work to make sure as many of my emotional needs are met in healthy relationships as possible so that I dont have to many holes in my emotional life. Course that does not work all of the time.
Thnkfully I am in a really good place at the moment but I am not always and I know I will go throuh it again.
I have personally narrowed the stuff I miss from not having a parner down to intimacy of some knd or another and physical pleasure. The trick for me is to find another way to have these needs met then it is not such a big deal.
and then sometimes my bed just seems like the lonliest place in the universe, and there aint nuthin I can do about it.
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Jesus - nice bloke, bit religious
Posts: 2679 | From: Under Downunder | Registered: Mar 2004
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
[Sometimes, when I cringe at seeing that sig of yours, I wonder if anyone knows it was nicked from a drunken post extolling the virtues of our very own Sine Nomine? ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) ]
quote:
Originally posted by Dee-nz:
[...] I have personally narrowed the stuff I miss from not having a partner down to intimacy of some kind or another and physical pleasure. The trick for me is to find another way to have these needs met then it is not such a big deal...
In the interest of promoting inter-gender understanding and without venturing into T&T territory, how is it you "have these needs met" and make it not such a big deal?
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--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by josephine:
Is it? Does nouwen's friend also want to know why God has bestowed good things on her that other people lack? Does she cry all over her friends because God has unfairly granted her good health, because she never goes hungry, because her home is dry and the power is on and fresh pure water comes out of the tap at the touch of a faucet?
Ah, the "think of the starving millions/poor/sick/insert problem here and be grateful" argument.
Well, I daily thank God that I was born at a time where women's rights have advanced sufficiently that I can be educated, own property, vote and by and large have a range of opportunities denied my female ancestors. But that doesn't mean that I can't aspire to more for myself or for other women.
All the hobbies and friends and community involvement and Good Works in the world cannot displace the desire for a committed loving relationship. Not because they aren't good to aspire to or to be grateful for or in some way lesser or better than such a relationship. But because they aren'tthat relationship - they are something else. But they are worthwhile in themselves. They meet a lot of the needs of a partnership - companionship, being needed,intellectual stimulation, feeling that you contribute or are giving something back.
Which is what Dee-NZ is getting at when she talks about finding fulfillment, satisfaction and release in what you have and what you do.
But sometimes there is no substitute. That's the feeling you get when you come home and there's no-one there - because there's no-one who is meant to be there. That would be the person who wanted to be with you as your partner, rather than being somewhere else doing all those other worthy things.
So it is right to say "why?" - even though the answer may be as stark as "because I'm God and you are not."
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Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)
Posts: 7952 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
An intriguing thought occurred to me last night when I first read this thread: would people's responses be the same if this thread was entitled 'God withholding children'? Would someone's infertile friend be told to get a hobby, count their blessings and so on?
Perhaps they would. I can't help feeling though that even if the underlying sentiment was the same that the way we expressed it would be different. We wouldn't as easily talk in terms of 'getting what we want' and 'just desire'.
I raise this because as a single person in my late 30's I have been spoken to in terms as blunt as those, blunter in fact, on occasion when I've dared to express dissatisfaction with the single state.
Some may feel that the parallel with infertility is not appropriate. However consider that for many, singleness is in effect infertility. All my older sister ever really wanted in life was to get married and have kids. Since the former hasn't happened for her, the later probably never will.
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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PhilA
shipocaster
# 8792
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Posted
When people are happy and content, they are more attractive than when they are upset or low. More attractive people get more 'propositions', in other words happy people are more likely to find happiness with other happy people.
But, I'm married, so what do I know?
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To err is human. To arr takes a pirate.
Posts: 3121 | From: Sofa | Registered: Nov 2004
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
Im recentlyish single, and yes Id rather be in a fulfilling relationship as I love the intimacy and companionship. I know too tho, if I had rushed into that while i was feeling "desperate" it relaly wouldnt have been good.
ALthough I didnt like it at the time there really is a lot to be said for sorting your own life out, being happy with yourself and all that and not making "being single" the focus, as "being partnered" really wont solve half the problems you(I) think it does.
That said, Im hoping not to be single forever, and if I dont happen to partner up in the near future I think Ill try things like online dating, etc etc...
I like what Gort said about not just sitting around waiting, enjoy the dating game etc...
I think theres tons of blokes out there, also single, its just finding them etc etc isnt it.
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Auntie Doris
Screen Goddess
# 9433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LatePaul:
All my older sister ever really wanted in life was to get married and have kids. Since the former hasn't happened for her, the later probably never will.
I really relate to this. I expected to be married by the time I was 24, and now I am approaching 30 and still single (not so old I know, but when your expectations are different it seems an age!!) I was gutted when my younger sister got married, and yet now I am in the position of her being in a unhappy marriage and her envying my single life. Bitter irony for her as she never held the same desires as me to get married.
Granted, I have lots of good things in my life. I have fantastic friends, a good job, somewhere to live, and just about enough money to get by. However, I still feel that there is something missing in my life and I wish that I had someone to go home to. I don't want to have a pity party, but there is part of me that feels extremely hard done by.
I know that the grass isn't always greener, I am not that naive. But singleness can be a very lonely place when you don't feel that it is for you!!
I have also sworn at God a lot, and like Paul W I found it most therapeutic!
Auntie Doris x
[ 09. September 2005, 08:27: Message edited by: Auntie Doris ]
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"And you don't get to pronounce that I am not a Christian. Nope. Not in your remit nor power." - iGeek in response to a gay-hater :)
The life and times of a Guernsey cow
Posts: 6019 | From: The Rock at the Centre of the Universe | Registered: May 2005
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The Lady of the Lake
Shipmate
# 4347
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Posted
I find RuthW's comments on the subject both wise and sensitive. Also Late Paul's comparison of involuntary singleness with infertility is very apposite. A hobby is not the same as a relationship or a child - it's crass to say the least to try to equate them.
I'm glad some people on this thread point out that single people don't all have a 'the grass is greener over the hill' mentality. Unfortunately a lot of people seem to think we do.
Joyfulsoul, I like what you said about being a previous atheist. I was brought up in a churchgoing but not devout home, where there was no belief that God would give us partners; we have the responsibility to improve our own lives and take risks. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
I wonder if the churches need to ask themselves how much damage the theology of waiting for God to provide one with a partner has been doing to Christians. It's so easy for people spend years of their adult life putting the responsibility on God and I can't help but see this often as a cover for responsibility. There needs to be people saying from the front of the church quite bluntly, it's your responsibility. Allowing people to rely on God as a celestial matchmaker is IMHO a way of fobbing off the unhappily single or those who are very fragile or unsure of themselves. It's no better than allowing worship that portrays Jesus as the individual's lover. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posts: 1272 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Apr 2003
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Nutmeg
Ship's spice girl
# 5297
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Posted
Lady of the Lake wrote.
quote:
A hobby is not the same as a relationship or a child - it's crass to say the least to try to equate them.
I think the most insensitive thing I have heard is the well meant suggestion that a recently widowed man in his 70's get a dog. He fumed quite openly that an animal was not going to replace a 45 year relationship. I know that is a slight tangent, but I guess it is related in that it is an insensitive suggestion that does not allow acknowledgement that there is no substitute for a life long partner. I liked reading Duo's post, because I thought it was honest without being self pitying. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
I talked once with a female friend who is still single and a career diplomat. I was envying the fact that she could see the latest movie/ show/art exhibition or travel wherever she wanted. She acknowledged that yes she could, but that she found it a very selfish lifestyle, that you could do whatever you wanted really. She really wanted so much more in terms of a relationship. She is (still) attractive, intelligent, fun, thoughtful, and all the things we believe a partner will find attractive. She has not found a partner, she has adopted an asian orphan and is in the process of adopting a second.
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" Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read" - Groucho Marx
Posts: 2285 | From: under the verandah at the rum distillery | Registered: Dec 2003
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Auntie Doris
Screen Goddess
# 9433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nutmeg:
She has not found a partner, she has adopted an asian orphan and is in the process of adopting a second.
If I could financially afford to do this I would. However, being limited by circumstances it is not an option at the moment ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Auntie Doris x
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"And you don't get to pronounce that I am not a Christian. Nope. Not in your remit nor power." - iGeek in response to a gay-hater :)
The life and times of a Guernsey cow
Posts: 6019 | From: The Rock at the Centre of the Universe | Registered: May 2005
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Emma.:
maybe if she desperately *needs* another she needs to look at her reasons why and work on herself a bit first...
You might as well tell a starving person that they need to work on their greed.
(Also, theologically, that might make sense from some Buddhist or Cathar positions, but not a Christian one, where our tradition is that we all do need others)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
My religious experience has never exposed me to any "Lord, won'tcha buy me a new Mercedes-Benz" - or husband/wife/partner - theology. I thought we were supposed to pray for our daily bread and for forgiveness of our sins. And that He would be there to comfort us in our loneliness and despair, not necessarily take it away like we were contestants on The Bachelorette.
So I may well be missing the point of the thread.
But I do know from my life experience that if you're living the kind of life suggested in the New Testament - putting others first, not being obsessed with self, trying to put good things into the stream of life - you will have an amazingly attractive personality that will draw people to you. You will have lots of friends. Your friends will constantly be trying to set you up with other marvelous people they know.
But it's kind of like Peter walking on water. You can only do it if you have faith and don't think about it.
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
Ken i wasnt meaning to be insensitive there. Im nto sure i can explain what i mean without sounding holier-than-thou either...
I actually would far rather be in a relationship, and agree that we are designed to work in relationship with other beings etc etc etc, but there is a level where it gets to needing and thinking it will make all things better.... I was like that when i was first split up. I think thats a case where you need to work on other things in life. Like someone obsessed with getting a new car/wining the lottery etc. Instead, focusing on becoming a more balanced person can be good.Im *not* saying all single people are like this, in fact i think im digging a hole so i might just scarper!!!
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I've also had people tell me to just hang out with my platonic friends more. Ironically, these helpful hints for happiness all come from...ahem... happily married people.
Just tell then that what a "Platonic relationship" literally is is when an older man fancies a boy or a teenager who is willing to respond, but for the sake of decency he doesn't actually bugger him.
And see how they take that.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
ohh sine said what i think but far better....
What I *dont* get is why they think its God whose witheld marriage? does she think God will one day drop a man in her lap? Arent we responsible to a certain extent?
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
I don't think that any theology really helps the emotional pain of wanting to be attached to a significant other when you are not.
There is lots of advice which is good advice about living life to the full, about giving yourself to others, about making the most of the connections you do have, and not letting the one that you don't have cast a pall over everything else.
For some people they can turn their own self-knowledge from the experience of that kind of pain into a way of helping others. All of these can bring positive things out of the situation - but none of them is a substitute for what is longed for.
I think there is something in surrendering everything we are, including all our desires and longings, to God and in seeking to locate our whole desire in God - but it is a thorny road and will not remove the feeling of lack.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
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Posted
I'm unfamiliar with 'name it and claim it,' but I think that all of us know that there are many factors in our lives (whether they are our choices or not) which come from circumstances. It can be horribly discouraging to be faced with "God's will," presented as some sort of vague plan, of which we are unaware, which will frustrate any of our efforts that are not in accord with the directions.
I have seen many people struggle in circumstances similar to those of Nouwen's friend when I was Roman Catholic. I think part of the 'reassurance' which was so painful was misplaced. Many people, who never married, had embraced a sense of vocation through their work, church involvement, dedication to family, whatever - with hindsight, they might refer to their singleness as vocation (though it was more likely resignation, and accepting serving God in whatever circumstances one faced.) Unfortunately, at parish level, first marriage had to be spoken of endlessly (lest anyone think nuns and priests were superior and deny the universal call to holiness), then the singles felt left out and were praised for 'single life as vocation.' In fact, I often heard frustrated attempts to marry (never meeting the right person, a fiance dying, whatever) as a 'calling to single life.'
Very few people decided on a single life, and this should not be assumed to be a choice (unless someone makes that plain.) I cannot say how many people I encountered, who hoped for marriage, who were deeply saddened by the idea that God decided they had to be single, and that it was useless to even hope.
It is perfectly all right to scream at God if one wishes - the OT is full of this, and it is quite healthy. But someone who wishes to marry who becomes mired in hopelessness, thinking God pushed a button to frustrate all efforts, can become exceedingly bitter. I dare say that, even in a situation where one might 'meet someone,' the extreme of either excessive bitterness or eagerness would be a 'turn off.'
Perhaps it would help those in the situation nouwen describes (as it would any of us) to focus their prayer on praise for awhile (not praise for the situation - just general variety.) It's all right to be angry with God, but it can cripple us if our prayer is reduced to 'why are you making me miserable?' God has nothing to do with whether one met a spouse or not - he's not preventing a marriage. Desperation can make one jump into a disastrous marriage, so the prayers of praise can make one a bit calmer.
Pain of this type is common, I believe, to many Christian lives. On the one hand, we want to be assured that God will give us the grace to fulfil whatever it is that would be best for us - on the other, if we think God directly influences our circumstances, we wonder why he slams so many doors.
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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
Posts: 6740 | From: Library or pub | Registered: Jun 2001
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Philpott-Thrashington
Shipmate
# 5269
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Posted
53 and still single .... I used to envy married friends, especially as I got left out of their cosy 2 by 2 dinner parties .... and famly life, and children, and all that goes with it, but now I'm not so sure that I do ......
Singleness is a selfish lifestyle, but so long as this tnedency is recognised, can be very fulfilling. I had to let go of the social (and religious) expectations I was broguht up with that I would get married and have a family. Even my Mother (now 92) has stopped asking .....
It can be lonely, and it can take time to accept that your life's path may not be what you expected, or what others expect. But it also has great advantages.
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The Dean of Wenchoster
"Watch and pray!"
Posts: 126 | From: Suffolk | Registered: Dec 2003
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Birdseye
I can see my house from here!
# 5280
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Posted
I'm married and can't for the life of me think how it happened -it's wonderful but I never expected it though I was earth-shatteringly lonely before. Still God sent me a bloke (he really did -I could explain how it really wasn't down to me, but down to the death of Maude Flanders from the Simpsons and some parrots, but that's not relevant)
But even though the relationship is just what I needed, the pros and cons of singledom/ partnership are equal. You just have no way of telling which state is slightly more bearable for you until you've tried both.
15 to 20 people told me, as I was on the brink of officially getting engaged, NOT to do it -to quit now and keep my freedom coz relationships are not worth losing your freedom for, some of those people are apparently quite 'happily' married. I also had a similar number congratulate me -but the wistful and slightly jealous congratulations came only from single people who thought that partnership and marriage would be the best possible state in the best of all possible worlds, and the wry, amused, jolly congratulations came from people who were in relationships and knew better.
Sometimes I think, if i could change one thing about my life, I would meet my husband ten years later -not because I want less time with him, but because I want more time alone.
Most of the time I'm glad he's already here.
What's the point of that -I don't know... No use to anyone who's achingly lonely, and old hat to anyone who's in a relationship. I think it's okay to be angry with God about being achingly lonely though.
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Life is what happens whilst you're busy making other plans.
a birdseye view
Posts: 1615 | From: West Yorkshire | Registered: Dec 2003
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Joan_of_Quark
Anchoress of St Expedite
# 9887
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Emma.:
I think theres tons of blokes out there, also single, its just finding them etc etc isnt it.
Newsflash - I know where LOTS of them are!
.
.
.
... thirty-something and still living with Mummy.
(lest anyone accuse me of being too picky and judgemental, I have given at least two such people a chance with horrible results on both occasions - I am not talking about people caring for aged parents but domestic incompetents treating chez Mom and Dad as a free B&B)
Seriously, lots of people out there haven't grown up enough to have a proper relationship -whether that is emotionally, practical skills, or whatever. Then there's another set who have done everything to prepare themselves, and have a decent life with plenty of friendships and interests while they are waiting, but the demographics are against them.
It's a kind of paradoxical intention where we probably have to have loads of good qualities and interests and at the same time open to opportunities to meet people wherever we are, yet without being or appearing desperate, etc. etc.
I haven't talked much to Christians about being single again since I converted. One thing I did notice as an atheist is that with all the "self-help" type attitudes out there, there is quite a lot of pressure on everyone to demonstrate tangible "success" - whether that's a partner, a posh house, a high-status job, flash suits - or you are some sort of loser who didn't chant their happy mantras enough. I went to a confidence workshop recently and, whilst it gave out some very good practical tips, it also pushed this ethos of being able to achieve anything you really wanted. This is of course nonsense on toast but this hyped-up ra-ra stuff is everywhere.
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"I want to be an artist when I grow up." "Well you can't do both!"
further quarkiness
Posts: 1025 | From: The Book Depository | Registered: Jul 2005
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Nutmeg
Ship's spice girl
# 5297
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I've also had people tell me to just hang out with my platonic friends more. Ironically, these helpful hints for happiness all come from...ahem... happily married people.
Just tell then that what a "Platonic relationship" literally is is when an older man fancies a boy or a teenager who is willing to respond, but for the sake of decency he doesn't actually bugger him.
And see how they take that.
![[Eek!]](eek.gif) Would that be from the Plato the philosopher then ken? Sorry for the digression...
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" Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read" - Groucho Marx
Posts: 2285 | From: under the verandah at the rum distillery | Registered: Dec 2003
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Zealot en vacance
Shipmate
# 9795
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
But I do know from my life experience that if you're living the kind of life suggested in the New Testament - putting others first, not being obsessed with self, trying to put good things into the stream of life - you will have an amazingly attractive personality that will draw people to you. You will have lots of friends. Your friends will constantly be trying to set you up with other marvelous people they know.
But it's kind of like Peter walking on water. You can only do it if you have faith and don't think about it.
That is one of the best things I have read on these boards. Have faith, let go of self, seek to do what is right for the Kingdom of God, and blessings will flow, is the way I would put it. My spouse came unbidden at a time when I was both very busy, and humanly lonely. She ran her car into mine. God moves in mysterious ways ...
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He said, "Love one another".
Posts: 2014 | From: Surface of planet Earth | Registered: Jul 2005
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
Look - the "get a hobby" advice isn't to suggest that married people don't have hobbies or that grieving singles don't have hobbies. It's shorthand, perhaps American shorthand, for "get over it as best you can". Look: there's a body part I'm missing that almost everyone has. I have certainly grieved for its missingness. I hate that people stare at me as much as I assume it is annoying to have waiters act all pitiful when you want a table for one (this is one of my favorite things, actually, but there you go). I cannot therefore play the piano the way my father can, as I have always wished I could, although I am musically gifted.
Anyway, my point, based on personal experience is, the best advice is to allow yourself to grieve periodically, but not overmuch, because what good does it do you? Occasional allowing yourself to feel bad honors the truth that it is sometimes sad to be alone. But don't forget to really revel in the times being uncoupled means you have great freedom to have an adventure, as will happen, too.
For those who are whacking those offering advice for being clueless -- if the OP asks for advice, we all get to give it. The OP can pick and choose. Those of us with empathy but who aren't touchy-feely don't always get it exactly right, but that doesn't mean we have nothing useful to offer. Perhaps we all can think of something that we're denied that many have. I think these situations speak to each other.
L
[ 09. September 2005, 14:15: Message edited by: Laura ]
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Little Miss Methodist
Ship's Diplomat
# 1000
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Posted
I think one of the big things with singleness is a self esteem issue.
The longer you are single, despite your best efforts, the more you are bound to start thinking "whats wrong with me"? I don't know any single person who hasn't walked down the street and looked at all the couples around and thought "look at him / her, they are no better looking than me, what do they have that I don't"?
And sometimes the answer is lower standards...
But sometimes there is no obvious answer. You can do everything right, hang out where there are plenty of single people, be attractive and funny and intelligent and there is still no guarantee that you will find someone.
And thats the thing thats most frustrating about it, I think. We can do everything right, but at the end of the day, finding the right person is a two way thing. We can only take things so far, after that it relies, to a certain extent, on luck.
And, while you hope that luck will come your way soon, each time it doesn't, and each time you see another friend pair off or get married or have children, a little part of you can't help but think "why not me, whats wrong with me"?
LMM
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Tell me where you learned the magic,
The spell you used the day you made me fall....
Posts: 1628 | From: Caretaker of the Overlook Hotel | Registered: Apr 2003
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
My religious experience has never exposed me to any "Lord, won'tcha buy me a new Mercedes-Benz" - or husband/wife/partner - theology. I thought we were supposed to pray for our daily bread and for forgiveness of our sins. And that He would be there to comfort us in our loneliness and despair, not necessarily take it away like we were contestants on The Bachelorette.
Comparing single people who pray for partners to contestants on a reality TV show is appallingly dismissive.
quote:
But I do know from my life experience that if you're living the kind of life suggested in the New Testament - putting others first, not being obsessed with self, trying to put good things into the stream of life - you will have an amazingly attractive personality that will draw people to you. You will have lots of friends. Your friends will constantly be trying to set you up with other marvelous people they know.
But it's kind of like Peter walking on water. You can only do it if you have faith and don't think about it.
So if people who want partners and don't have them it's because their faith is weak? Because they aren't good New Testament Christians? It's always a bit hard to know what to say when people say, "Gee, Ruth, you're really a great person -- why aren't you married?" But now I've got a good answer. My faith is inadequate.
Laura, you do obviously know a lot about grieving for something you'll never have. The thing about being single, though, is that it's not necessarily a permanent condition. I imagine you don't at this point in your life pray that God will change your body. But many single people who want partners quite reasonably hope and pray that they will find partners. Your advice is in a lot of ways very good, but I'd say that for a lot of single people the thing to do is not to "get over it as best you can" but to "get on with it as best you can."
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
I feel for your friend, Nouwen, I really do, but I have no advice, because I'm a single person who is pretty much a happy camper sans partner. In my personal experience with the 'name it and claim it' crowd, there's also an extreme push to get married. As if being a single person is something that needs to get fixed, right away! I wonder if any of her feelings are coming from that kind of pressure.
Actually, except the one time the preacher was advocating a religious order, I've NEVER heard 'singleness as a good thing' from a pulpit. That's kind of irksome, now that I think about it.
[tangent: the worst pickup line in the history of the world was used on me by a Latter-Day Saints returned missionary when I made the mistake of attending an LDS church with a friend. She didn't bother to tell me it was a Singles Stake, the equivalent of a special service every week just for the single kids to see and be seen. He walked up to me, a total stranger, and said in all seriousness, "I've been praying to Heavenly Father to send me a wife, and He sent you." I think my hysterical laughter hurt his feelings.]
The way you phrased your subject is actually what caught my eye. God is 'withholding' marriage, as in God has a perfect partner (well, as perfect as any partner is) for your friend. So... is your friend the kind of person who opens Christmas presents in November? Patience is a virtue, and a neccessary one in a relationship.
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
But I do know from my life experience that if you're living the kind of life suggested in the New Testament - putting others first, not being obsessed with self, trying to put good things into the stream of life - you will have an amazingly attractive personality that will draw people to you. You will have lots of friends. Your friends will constantly be trying to set you up with other marvelous people they know.
But it's kind of like Peter walking on water. You can only do it if you have faith and don't think about it.
Balderdash! And anyone wishing to share such ideas with others (especially those in the situation of Nouwen's friends) should read Ruth's post carefully first.
So, anyone who is lonely - who does not have an amazingly attractive personality and scads of friends - has inadequate faith? Those trying to live the gospel are often taken advantage of (I don't mean in relation to romance - across the board); are the ones who everyone comes to with problems but few invite out socially; and some of the greatest saints (Jerome, for some reason, comes to mind) were rather impossible companions.
God has nothing to do with if someone has not met a spouse. Certainly, not having done so does not mean a lack of faith - and the comparison with Peter's walking on the water is an exegetical nightmare.
However, looking to live out the gospel 'wherever one is' is a good idea - because it's the only place we can meet Christ at any given moment.
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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
Posts: 6740 | From: Library or pub | Registered: Jun 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Laura, you do obviously know a lot about grieving for something you'll never have. The thing about being single, though, is that it's not necessarily a permanent condition.
I'm aware that it isn't a perfect comparison. Almost nothing in life is. Even different single people have different experiences of it.
But I do think that finding a life partner is something which is substantially a matter of luck/chance. There are many things in life like that, and it's best in my experience to ride with them as much as possible, assuming that they will be permanent. Sometimes someone is surprised, of course -- a family member recently married for the first time at 58. But that doesn't change the fact that many people spend their lives single. Perhaps "get on with it" is a better formulation than "get over it", but I think we mean the same thing.
[ 09. September 2005, 19:30: Message edited by: Laura ]
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Esmeralda
Ship's token UK Mennonite
# 582
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Posted
Better set out my credentials first:
- I was single, living alone, till the age of 35. I had lots of boyfriends (though decreasing in number as I got older) and good female friends, but it didn't stop me longing for marriage - mainly because I longed a) for sex and b) for someone to 'belong' to.
- I got married on my 36th birthday, to a man I wasn't in love with, but with whom I had a strong and growing friendship, and because I felt a sense of calling from God to marry him. I was also on the rebound from being in love with someone who turned out to be gay. We are still married 16 years later, but it has been extremely hard work, complicated by first discovering we were sub-fertile, and then miraculously having a son, who however turned out to have a learning disability.
I think that makes it fairly clear I'm speaking from difficult experience on both sides of the fence.
And this is what I want to say:
- Firstly, if you are a Christian woman and want your spouse to share your faith, you have to come to terms with the fact that in almost all churches, there are not enough single men to go round. And some of them are going to be gay anyway. All single women seeking church membership should be warned that it will seriously decrease their chances of marriage. Jesus told us, after all, to count the cost of discipleship.
- Secondly, both states have their struggles and sorrows. Nevertheless, the fact remains that marriage, when it works, does provide 'companionship on tap' or at the very least, 'conversation on tap' in a way singleness rarely does (this is not to say all marriages provide this, they clearly don't). If you are single and likely to remain so, you will have to make your own arrangements for this. You could house-share, or live in community (which has its own hassles), or do what I did, which is to gather a 'mini-community' of fellow singles around you. I was part, for several years, of a group of five single Christian women friends who met at least every six weeks to spend an evening chatting and praying together. It was a lifesaver.
- Thirdly, no church fellowship, community or circle of friends is going to compensate for the sexual frustration involved in celibate singleness. Or for the emotional frustration involved in a series of 'no-strings' sexual relationships, though I cannot speak from experience here (I did the celibate thing).
- Fourthly, marriage doesn't automatically guarantee sexual fulfilment. Or even sex at all. I do speak from bitter experience here.
- Ninthly - no, I'm joking. That's about all I have to say for now. Life's a bitch, innit?
- Oh, twelfthly, one more thing (as Colombo would say). Jesus, our master, was single. And I believe he had fully working genitals. Doesn't make it any easier, but makes him at least more understanding than the smug marrieds.
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I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand.
http://reversedstandard.wordpress.com/
Posts: 17415 | From: A small island nobody pays any attention to | Registered: Jun 2001
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Paul W.:
I find the theology of swearing at God and telling him where to stick his "gift of singleness" helps quite a bit. It's theraputic anyway.
Paul W
The only suitable place for God's "gift of singleness" is rammed tightly up God's arse.
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Infinite Penguins.
My "Readit, Swapit" page
My "LibraryThing" page
Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Little Miss Methodist:
And sometimes the answer is lower standards...
Hmm.
But standards should not be unrealitically low either. For example, any woman who is of below average intelligence is definately not for me. No question. Even of only average intelligence is pushing the acceptability level rather a lot. I want a bright woman.
And there has got to be a physical attraction.
And if she hates rock music, then that would be an issue.
And a right-wing woman would not be compatable either. Nor would a religious fundamentalist.
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Infinite Penguins.
My "Readit, Swapit" page
My "LibraryThing" page
Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Laura, you do obviously know a lot about grieving for something you'll never have. The thing about being single, though, is that it's not necessarily a permanent condition.
I'm aware that it isn't a perfect comparison. Almost nothing in life is. Even different single people have different experiences of it.
But I do think that finding a life partner is something which is substantially a matter of luck/chance. There are many things in life like that, and it's best in my experience to ride with them as much as possible, assuming that they will be permanent. Sometimes someone is surprised, of course -- a family member recently married for the first time at 58. But that doesn't change the fact that many people spend their lives single. Perhaps "get on with it" is a better formulation than "get over it", but I think we mean the same thing.
I'm not expecting to meet anyone ever, not even if I lower some of the above standards. Which won't happen.
I prefer "get on with it" to "get over it".
I can get on with it, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. Liking it is really a bit too much to ask.
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Infinite Penguins.
My "Readit, Swapit" page
My "LibraryThing" page
Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
The title says "God witholding marriage." From the time I was a small child, I knew I had no desire to have children of my own, and wasn't even sure about marriage. As it turned out, I wasn't a very good spouse, and I know I would be a crappy parent. Since then, I've been happily single.
Having no spouse and no children has made me wonder what the purpose of my existence is, at least in Darwinian terms. I've discovered that I can make a difference in my community and a difference to my friends that far exceeds any good I might have accomplished as a spouse/parent - which as you can see from above, wasn't much. One of my happiest moments ever was when a friend pointed out that my volunteer work with a women's organization has probably made more of a difference to more women's lives and to my community's future than I could have accomplished in a nuclear family.
To put it in God-terms, I believe that God wanted me to do something with my life other than get married and have babies. That's why God made me so bad at it: so I wouldn't be tempted, even with all society's pressure. And I believe that God will always give me what I need - not necessarily what I want - to do God's will. If your friend honestly believes that she wants to be married, and honestly believes that God is preventing this.... well, either the time hasn't come, or one of them has to be wrong.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) for both of you. Cheers, Olivia G
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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